New Phosphatidic acid (PA) dosing from Biotest

Alistair_

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Scratching my head on the new once a week dosing of 1 gram preworkout. Even 100mg of Anadrol once a week isn’t going to translate to lean mass gains. Can anyone who have found success with PA post they dose and how many times a week they took it?
Here is the full details from Biotest:


Recommended use has been recently updated and differs from the label. Biotest now recommends taking Micro-PA® phosphatidic acid ONCE PER WEEK, ONLY ON YOUR HARDEST TRAINING DAY. If you have more than one hard workout per week, choose only one to use Micro-PA® phosphatidic acid.
Biotest has been selling and using phosphatidic acid for several years now, and our accumulated experiential knowledge of the product has led us to some conclusions. For one, the common dosage recommendations need to be flushed down the vortex of the toilet. Taking 750 mg doesn't give the best results. Neither does 375 or 250 mg.
Contrary to what the economically minded say, you need to take a full gram of phosphatidic acid – that's 4 capsules of Biotest's Micro-PA™ supplement – one hour before your brutal workout. That's when phosphatidic acid increases mTOR to a significant degree, and phosphatidic acid can make a big difference in gains.
 
ndiguy

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Once a week? Seems pretty damn pointless....

I've been on 1500mg of Mediator (750mg of PA) for almost two months. The bottle says to take 6 days per week, but I use it daily.

The pumps when taken an hour pre workout have been stellar.
 
GQdaLEGEND

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Also taken from the website :
This protocol will also end up being an economical one because you're only using it once a week. The 60-capsule bottle suddenly becomes nearly a 4-month supply instead of a month's supply. Here's the dosing summary:



that is very weird on the suggested dose, wonder how they back it up ?
or maybe just a sales technique
 
ndiguy

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Also taken from the website :
This protocol will also end up being an economical one because you're only using it once a week. The 60-capsule bottle suddenly becomes nearly a 4-month supply instead of a month's supply. Here's the dosing summary:



that is very weird on the suggested dose, wonder how they back it up ?
or maybe just a sales technique
it’s definitely confusing, because wouldn’t they want us to take MORE servings, so we would buy the product more often? Their directive with one serving per week dosing seems like a great way to lose a lot of money.

the whole thing is pretty strange lol..
 

B1LL1ST1C

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Sounds like clever marketing to me. Been taking Unbound Byld (contains Mediator) for a while now. Dosing every day preworkout or first thing in the morning on non workout days. Working well for me with this protocol.
 

B1LL1ST1C

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it’s definitely confusing, because wouldn’t they want us to take MORE servings, so we would buy the product more often? Their directive with one serving per week dosing seems like a great way to lose a lot of money.

the whole thing is pretty strange lol..
This is true. Yea not sure what their angle is here. Something seems off about this for sure.
 

tenorguy33

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Sounds like clever marketing to me. Been taking Unbound Byld (contains Mediator) for a while now. Dosing every day preworkout or first thing in the morning on non workout days. Working well for me with this protocol.
I have been using the same product and it has worked great with that same dosing for me as well.
 
GQdaLEGEND

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ive heard of pulsing superdrol because its too strong .. but this is .. yeahhhh

maybe well get someone on here who have ran it and can report back with the results (once a week)
 

B1LL1ST1C

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I have been using the same product and it has worked great with that same dosing for me as well.
Nice! I’m a huge fan. Really enjoying it. About to purchase my 3rd bottle soon. Endurance is up, strength is up, and pumps are great.
 
match

match

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Also taken from the website :
This protocol will also end up being an economical one because you're only using it once a week. The 60-capsule bottle suddenly becomes nearly a 4-month supply instead of a month's supply. Here's the dosing summary:



that is very weird on the suggested dose, wonder how they back it up ?
or maybe just a sales technique
I think you might be right about it being a sales technique.

On their website they say: Phosphatidic acid should be saved for the biggest, baddest workout of the week, the one you plan out. The one you anticipate with a mix of excitement and trepidation. Don't waste your money by using PA for non-focused casual workouts.

So the implication is that you're not working out hard enough (subliminal challenge) most days. Might be true for a lot of people, but how many of those people would be honest with themselves about it?

I intend to continue with my current PA supplementation (4 caps of micro-PA, 1 hour prior to my workouts, which are 5 days per week), until I learn of a better plan.

I'm a bit embarrassed about it, but I actually am still taking a number of biotest supplements. I'm trying to slowly but surely replace my biotest supps with other brands (partly for economic reasons, but mostly because I don't want to reward their hype-style of marketing). Ideally within the next few months I'll have switched most or all of my biotest supps to alternatives from some of the distributors and manufacturers I've found here. I'm looking forward to finishing up my micro-PA so I can pick up something new.
 

Alistair_

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Taking PA pre-workout on workout days only does makes sense, but once a week does not. I emailed them this question and they could not give me a reasonable answer.

I could be wrong but PA may not aid lean gains on rest days because it isn’t used to increase protein synthesis. PA is used to increase mTOR which you o need the most when you are training. You wouldn’t need to take PA on rest days to keep your blood levels up because 750mg to a gram is sufficient enough to increase mTOR right from the get go. But once a week dosing, GTFO
 

ironkill

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This was their response:


As the article says, “our accumulated experiential knowledge of the product has led us to some conclusions.” So I believe it’s input pulled from the coaches, researchers, and customers Biotest hears from.
It’s not something any company would suggest if it didn’t work. “Hey guys, get better results by using a ton less of our product.” You can use it more frequently if you’d like, but once a week for your hardest workout is what we recommend.

They then post a number of research articles, all of which did daily dosing. It’s an odd recommendation
 
BCseacow83

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I think you might be right about it being a sales technique.

On their website they say: Phosphatidic acid should be saved for the biggest, baddest workout of the week, the one you plan out. The one you anticipate with a mix of excitement and trepidation. Don't waste your money by using PA for non-focused casual workouts.

So the implication is that you're not working out hard enough (subliminal challenge) most days. Might be true for a lot of people, but how many of those people would be honest with themselves about it?

I intend to continue with my current PA supplementation (4 caps of micro-PA, 1 hour prior to my workouts, which are 5 days per week), until I learn of a better plan.

I'm a bit embarrassed about it, but I actually am still taking a number of biotest supplements. I'm trying to slowly but surely replace my biotest supps with other brands (partly for economic reasons, but mostly because I don't want to reward their hype-style of marketing). Ideally within the next few months I'll have switched most or all of my biotest supps to alternatives from some of the distributors and manufacturers I've found here. I'm looking forward to finishing up my micro-PA so I can pick up something new.
This is akin to the TV weight loss pills that are for "serious dieters" who need to lose at least 15 or more lbs........

Guys are going to hear Micro-PA is to be used only for their balls-out training day and will tell themselves that they train that way all the time so they will actually start taking the 1000mg for all training days..............crafty ole BT lol.

Basically, the takeaway for me is BT is admitting it works better at 1000 than 750 which ANYONE who has taken more of it could tell you.
 
sns8778

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Taking PA pre-workout on workout days only does makes sense, but once a week does not. I emailed them this question and they could not give me a reasonable answer.

I could be wrong but PA may not aid lean gains on rest days because it isn’t used to increase protein synthesis. PA is used to increase mTOR which you o need the most when you are training. You wouldn’t need to take PA on rest days to keep your blood levels up because 750mg to a gram is sufficient enough to increase mTOR right from the get go. But once a week dosing, GTFO
I like your posts and respect your opinion, so I'm not trying to be disagreeable or disrespectful at all. Just wanted to point that out bc sometimes things come off wrong on forums and online in general. So I didn't want to reply offering a different opinion without making sure I put that in context :)

All of the clinical studies that I've read on it were done on people using it daily and even though the mTOR activation gets the most attention, it is thought to have more than one method of action. And even with just the mTOR one, I think people are really short changing themselves by not using it daily bc a lot of muscle growth occurs on recovery days, not workout days.

I understand if people are trying to save money bc its an expensive supplement; but I do think daily use is better. Especially if people are using brands that only supply 750 mg. Mediator 50P which would be 375 mg. actual Phosphatidic Acid. There is a lot of tricky labeling going on where many brands try to convince people they are giving 750 mg. actual Phosphatidic Acid when they're really providing 750 mg. Mediator 50P which is 50% Phosphatidic Acid.

On our upcoming Phosphatidic Acid XT, we are going to be very clear on the label exactly what it contains - 1500 mg. per day of Mediator 50P supplying 750 mg. per day of actual Phosphatidic Acid. For people wanting to make a bottle last longer, they may could do the full dose on workout days and a half dose on non-workout days, but I personally wouldn't skip days.

I could actually make a much better argument for front loading on it than I could skipping days.
 
sns8778

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i believe that PA is similar to creatine in that it gets better as it builds in your system
I agree. I've read this and I've known some people in real life that front loaded it with higher dosing for a couple weeks and saw great results with it.

I think that with how cost effective Phosphatidic Acid XT will be, we will likely see some people trying the front load concept on it. Likely including me based off of how well some of the people that I know that have done that responded to it.
 

Alistair_

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I like your posts and respect your opinion, so I'm not trying to be disagreeable or disrespectful at all. Just wanted to point that out bc sometimes things come off wrong on forums and online in general. So I didn't want to reply offering a different opinion without making sure I put that in context :)

All of the clinical studies that I've read on it were done on people using it daily and even though the mTOR activation gets the most attention, it is thought to have more than one method of action. And even with just the mTOR one, I think people are really short changing themselves by not using it daily bc a lot of muscle growth occurs on recovery days, not workout days.

I understand if people are trying to save money bc its an expensive supplement; but I do think daily use is better. Especially if people are using brands that only supply 750 mg. Mediator 50P which would be 375 mg. actual Phosphatidic Acid. There is a lot of tricky labeling going on where many brands try to convince people they are giving 750 mg. actual Phosphatidic Acid when they're really providing 750 mg. Mediator 50P which is 50% Phosphatidic Acid.

On our upcoming Phosphatidic Acid XT, we are going to be very clear on the label exactly what it contains - 1500 mg. per day of Mediator 50P supplying 750 mg. per day of actual Phosphatidic Acid. For people wanting to make a bottle last longer, they may could do the full dose on workout days and a half dose on non-workout days, but I personally wouldn't skip days.

I could actually make a much better argument for front loading on it than I could skipping days.
Thanks for your input. You point just makes Biotest’s idea of once a week even more ridiculous and that was really the main point of me starting this thread.
 
DieselNY

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I don't understand the motive behind this brand telling people to take less. I will leave my opinion on that and them to myself.

That being said.....

I LOVE PA.. like how most people love creatine love but way more.

I highly recommend a loading phase like the old school creatine loading phase. I would take a double if not triple dose if you can afford it for maybe 2 weeks then down to a maintenance dose. I used to take it pre workout and post workout (I train very early am) and then 1 more time mid day. But take it every day even if only one time a day during the maintenance phase, even on days you do not train.

Strength gains are silly, almost scary (at least for me and those I have guided with PA). I would be in a deep deficit and strength kept going up. I can't imagine if one was to take PA on a bulk phase (would be amazing) but I save it for when I am cutting because it is so good at what it does.

I would buy a few bottles of SNS PA as soon as it comes out and follow this protocol, as from my experience and friends of mine who followed my direction...we all respond well.
 
GQdaLEGEND

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I don't understand the motive behind this brand telling people to take less. I will leave my opinion on that and them to myself.

That being said.....

I LOVE PA.. like how most people love creatine love but way more.

I highly recommend a loading phase like the old school creatine loading phase. I would take a double if not triple dose if you can afford it for maybe 2 weeks then down to a maintenance dose. I used to take it pre workout and post workout (I train very early am) and then 1 more time mid day. But take it every day even if only one time a day during the maintenance phase, even on days you do not train.

Strength gains are silly, almost scary (at least for me and those I have guided with PA). I would be in a deep deficit and strength kept going up. I can't imagine if one was to take PA on a bulk phase (would be amazing) but I save it for when I am cutting because it is so good at what it does.

I would buy a few bottles of SNS PA as soon as it comes out and follow this protocol, as from my experience and friends of mine who followed my direction...we all respond well.
yeah i think alot of us are baffled by biotest and i like your way.

Ill def be dosing this stuff everyday .. gonna be awesome when SNS drops this.
 

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Am I the only one that gets really stiff dry joints from PA supplementation?
 
match

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Doesn't seem to affect me that way that I've noticed.
 
GQdaLEGEND

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i havent ran it in a while .. but no dry joints here either from what i can remember
 
GQdaLEGEND

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Good read here > https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25123228/


Cyclic phosphatidic acid relieves osteoarthritis symptoms

Results: Intra-articular injection of 2ccPA (twice a week for 42 days) significantly reduced pain and articular swelling. Histopathology showed that 2ccPA suppressed cartilage degeneration in OA. We also examined the effects of 2ccPA on the inflammatory and catabolic responses of human OA synoviocytes and chondrosarcoma SW1353 cells in vitro.

another reason why i cant wait for SNS .. stuff gonna be magical, hopefully the reps get first dibs to stock up on sale lol
 

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What's the PA supplement? Brand?
I can’t remember I just know the company stopped making it. Came in an orange bottle I think. This was about 5 years ago. I’m going to give PA one more shot after I recover from surgery.
 
BigGame84

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I can’t remember I just know the company stopped making it. Came in an orange bottle I think. This was about 5 years ago. I’m going to give PA one more shot after I recover from surgery.
Must be EPIQ.
 
GQdaLEGEND

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Must be EPIQ.
yeah good call .. if that was the product it also had 4-5 other stuff with it

anytime you get dry joints, def is annoying .. yeah i would try a solo PA product again
 
sns8778

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Yes, I stopped the PA and joint pain gone. Started again pain back, stopped and pain gone.
It's definitely not common for PA to cause joint pain. It may have been something else in the product you were taking at the time or something like that.

I wouldn't expect the upcoming Phosphatidic Acid XT to cause any joint issues at all.
 
DieselNY

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So I have rheumatoid arthritis and get flare ups easily and started dabbling with phosphatidic acid long time ago using tons of lecithin granules which is loaded with pro inflammatory omega 6 as well as some arachidonic acid (AA) and had zero issues. I then took loads of straight phosphatidic acid and again zero issues.

I read this on PA but don't think this is any issue in humans or a negative at all:

We hypothesized that the PA is involved in macrophage activation leading to production of pro-inflammatory cytokines, NO, and PGE2. To examine this possibility, we used Raw264.7 cells to test the production of these cytokines, NO, and PGE2 in the presence of synthetic PA or LPS. The addition of synthetic PA to macrophages led to an increase in pro-inflammatory mediators through the Akt and the mTOR-p70 S6K1 pathways. We also analyzed PLD activity in LPS-treated macrophages and investigated whether produced PA can modulate pro-inflammatory mediators. We found that LPS-stimulated PA clearly induced pro-inflammatory mediators, an effect that was mediated by the Akt-mTOR pathway. These findings support the hypothesis that PLD generating PA is an important factor in the production of macrophage systemic inflammatory mediators.


Anyone with inflammatory issues using PA may possibly be using a product with other ingredients in it.
 
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GQdaLEGEND

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Next time I try PA I’ll just run some D-bol with it. Joints should be nice and hydrated.
take them both once a week .. u will feel no pain (no gain)
lol
 
50Magnum

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Scratching my head on the new once a week dosing of 1 gram preworkout. Even 100mg of Anadrol once a week isn’t going to translate to lean mass gains. Can anyone who have found success with PA post they dose and how many times a week they took it?
Here is the full details from Biotest:


Recommended use has been recently updated and differs from the label. Biotest now recommends taking Micro-PA® phosphatidic acid ONCE PER WEEK, ONLY ON YOUR HARDEST TRAINING DAY. If you have more than one hard workout per week, choose only one to use Micro-PA® phosphatidic acid.
Biotest has been selling and using phosphatidic acid for several years now, and our accumulated experiential knowledge of the product has led us to some conclusions. For one, the common dosage recommendations need to be flushed down the vortex of the toilet. Taking 750 mg doesn't give the best results. Neither does 375 or 250 mg.
Contrary to what the economically minded say, you need to take a full gram of phosphatidic acid – that's 4 capsules of Biotest's Micro-PA™ supplement – one hour before your brutal workout. That's when phosphatidic acid increases mTOR to a significant degree, and phosphatidic acid can make a big difference in gains.
Am I the only one that gets really stiff dry joints from PA supplementation?
so how were the micro-pa results dosing every workout?
 

Jeremyk1

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Does PA rival AA in terms of strength gains?
Probably varies too much person to person. ARA doesn’t seem to do anything for me. When I tried PA, I didn’t notice much strength, but I got fantastic muscle fullness.
 

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so how were the micro-pa results dosing every workout?
I haven’t used it yet. I’m on the mend from having emergency surgery 6 weeks ago. I’ll probably use my PA in June when I’m back to 100%
 
sns8778

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I haven’t used it yet. I’m on the mend from having emergency surgery 6 weeks ago. I’ll probably use my PA in June when I’m back to 100%
I'm sorry to hear about your surgery. I hope that you're healing up well and will keep you in thoughts and prayers.
 
ugsavage

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I'm also curious has anyone tried AA with PA versus just PA solo? What differences did you notice as PA seems to be getting some solid feedback where AA always seems more hit or miss.

I'm also wondering what kind of benefit spiking mTor before a workout would have? I always would hear Derek talking about how putting leucine in a preworkout is counterproductive and you only want to spike mTor after your workouts. However I'm sure leucine and PA work entirely different in that regard
 

Jeremyk1

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I'm also curious has anyone tried AA with PA versus just PA solo? What differences did you notice as PA seems to be getting some solid feedback where AA always seems more hit or miss.

I'm also wondering what kind of benefit spiking mTor before a workout would have? I always would hear Derek talking about how putting leucine in a preworkout is counterproductive and you only want to spike mTor after your workouts. However I'm sure leucine and PA work entirely different in that regard
I’ve wondered if PA could be used with ARA as an emulsifier since it’s derived from lecithin. I’d prefer that to glycerol. Either way, I didn’t get anything out of ARA.

I can’t imagine leucine would be counterproductive. If nothing else, it would be anticatabolic. I do remember seeing something once that taking PA with whey actually decreased the amount of mTOR. So PA pre and whey post would probably be ideal.
 
ugsavage

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I’ve wondered if PA could be used with ARA as an emulsifier since it’s derived from lecithin. I’d prefer that to glycerol. Either way, I didn’t get anything out of ARA.

I can’t imagine leucine would be counterproductive. If nothing else, it would be anticatabolic. I do remember seeing something once that taking PA with whey actually decreased the amount of mTOR. So PA pre and whey post would probably be ideal.
Yeah I thought the same thing about leucine. I think Derek is maybe referring to higher doses as it takes a good amount to actually activate mTOR. I would drink bcaa 8:1:1 pre/ intra workout and would always end up crushing the weights. However I would drink it slow, as opposed to just taking a high dose of leucine all at once.

I appreciate your feedback and I'm curious have you tried PA as well?
 

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Yeah I thought the same thing about leucine. I think Derek is maybe referring to higher doses as it takes a good amount to actually activate mTOR. I would drink bcaa 8:1:1 pre/ intra workout and would always end up crushing the weights. However I would drink it slow, as opposed to just taking a high dose of leucine all at once.

I appreciate your feedback and I'm curious have you tried PA as well?
I used one many years ago when MuscleTech released one. I remember getting muscle fullness from it, but didn’t get the strength I was hoping for. If I could find a good one for a good price, I do want to give it another go.
 

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