LGD and MK-677 stack. Does this look ok?

[ugsavage]

More on a opinion/non scientific side of things:

Why do you consider Nolva as a garbage SERM for recovering HPTA? I'ts pretty widely used for PCT and seems to be effective. Is it only the lowering of IGF-1? It's only temporary. And the gyno protection it also provides is a nice addition. Torem should be even better though, like you said.

You keep saying how Clomid is superior to Enclo, but haven't provided anything to base that off on. Again, I don't know all the effects, that the Zuclo isomer has/may have, so I'm not saying, that I know the Enclo to be better. But all the bit of info I've read about it has been negative, pretty much (for what we use SERM's for). I guess I need to try and do more research on it.

I don't think the half life is very meaningful for PCT purposes. If you want to have Enclo in your system for 8 weeks for example, then you take it for 7 weeks. If you want to have a SERM with longer half life in your system for 8 weeks, then you take it for less time.

Of course IGF 1 returns to normal after cessation of Tamoxifen however decreasing IGF 1 significantly during a PCT is not beneficial. I shouldn't say that Nolvadex is garbage because it's honestly the first thing I would take when preventing gyno and hands down the most effective in that aspect however I feel like it lowers IGF 1 too much during a PCT.

As for the zuclo being "negative" there is not any literature that I'm aware of that has isolated the zuclo isomer or performed any significant clinical trials in humans. My personal opinion is that the zuclo isomer is beneficial as we have both androgen and estrogen receptors at the HPTA . During a PCT phase it would be beneficial for both AR and ER to be occupied at the same time in the brain opposed to just activating AR you would be missing out big time on IGF 1 signaling

 

[KvanH]

Of course IGF 1 returns to normal after cessation of Tamoxifen however decreasing IGF 1 significantly during a PCT is not beneficial. I shouldn't say that Nolvadex is garbage because it's honestly the first thing I would take when preventing gyno and hands down the most effective in that aspect however I feel like it lowers IGF 1 too much during a PCT.

As for the zuclo being "negative" there is not any literature that I'm aware of that has isolated the zuclo isomer or performed any significant clinical trials in humans. My personal opinion is that the zuclo isomer is beneficial as we have both androgen receptors and estrogen receptors at the HPTA and thalamus in the brain. During a PCT phase it would be beneficial for both AR and ER to be occupied

Well, like I said, lowering IGF-1 is not something we want, I agree with that. So that is an unwanted side of Tamox and one of the reasons it's not a good choice for long term use. How big of a deal that temporary drop is on PCT, I don't know.

Zuclomiphene is estrogenic, whereas Eclo is antiestrogenic. To my knowledge neither of the isomers bind to the AR's. Zuclo binds to ER's as well, but in contrast of Enclo, which acts as an antagonist on the ER, Zuclo acts as an agonists on the ER, activating the receptor and having a negative effect on T levels. That's my understanding at least.

 

[ugsavage]

Well, like I said, lowering IGF-1 is not something we want, I agree with that. So that is an unwanted side of Tamox and one of the reasons it's not a good choice for long term use. How big of a deal that temporary drop is on PCT, I don't know.

Zuclomiphene is estrogenic, whereas Eclo is antiestrogenic. To my knowledge neither of the isomers bind to the AR's. Zuclo binds to ER's as well, but in contrast of Enclo, which acts as an antagonist on the ER, Zuclo acts as an agonists on the ER, activating the receptor and having a negative effect on T levels. That's my understanding at least.

Clomiphene is indirectly activating AR as your LH and total T levels raise it should be activating AR and through aromitase activating ER as well

 

[KvanH]

As for Clomid lowering igf 1 levels I do not believe they are lowered but rather normalized in studies when prescribed for acromegaly. Nolvadex will lower Igf 1 levels more then any other SERM but that is just my opinion and not based on bloodwork. This is why nolvadex is better to control estrogen during cycle and not during PCT because most androgens will raise IGF 1 levels most notably Tren but Testosterone as well at TRT levels.

"Results: Three months after CC introduction, serum IGF-1 levels decreased in all patients and reached normal values in 2 patients (25%). Noteworthy, IGF-1 normalization occurred in two of the three patients (66.7%) with baseline IGF-1 levels of up to 2 times the ULN. There was no significant change in GH levels. Conversely, total serum testosterone levels increased in all patients, reaching normal levels in 50% (three of six) of those considered to be hypogonadal (total testosterone < 300 ng/dL). Overall, CC was well tolerated and no patient needed to interrupt the treatment.
Conclusion: Addition of the low cost CC may be hepful to normalize IGF-1 levels in male acromegalic patients not controlled by the combination of SAs and cabergoline, particularly those with mild IGF-1 elevation (up to two times the ULN). Moreover, improvement of testosterone levels can be obtained in patients with concurrent central hypogonadism."

The impact of clomiphene citrate as add-on therapy in male acromegalic patients non-responsive to combined medical therapy | ECE2019 | 21st European Congress of Endocrinology | Endocrine Abstracts

www.endocrine-abstracts.org

.

This isn't too much to go with, as the study is done on people with acromegaly, a medical condition, that is diagnosed by high IGF-1 levels. But it says right there in your quote, that Clomid decreased the patients IGF-1 levels from up to 2 times the ULN to normal values.

 

[Rad83]

I’m just generally saying, If you don’t want to use pct drugs, don’t cycle

I’m running Mikes Enclo. and having a grand ole’ time

 

[KvanH]

Clomiphene is indirectly activating AR as your LH and total T levels raise it should be activating AR and through aromitase activating ER as well

But you said:

"My personal opinion is that the zuclo isomer is beneficial as we have both androgen receptors and estrogen receptors at the HPTA and thalamus in the brain. During a PCT phase it would be beneficial for both AR and ER to be occupied."

I said, that neither of them bind to the AR.

So LH and Test levels have nothing to do with the isomers binding or not binding to AR's. And the raised LH and T levels are the doing of the Enclo isomer anyways. Zuclo is hampering down that effect.

 

[ugsavage]

But you said:

"My personal opinion is that the zuclo isomer is beneficial as we have both androgen receptors and estrogen receptors at the HPTA and thalamus in the brain. During a PCT phase it would be beneficial for both AR and ER to be occupied."

I said, that neither of them bind to the AR.

So LH and Test levels have nothing to do with the isomers binding or not binding to AR's. And the raised LH and T levels are the doing of the Enclo isomer anyways. Zuclo is hampering down that effect.

Your very cut and dry my friend. But everytime you run gear you are actually creating new AR within muscle cells and organs; including the brain. So when you stop androgens and start taking serms the AR that have multiplied within the muscle tissue and organs will once again be activated as the Serm will be artificially raising your test levels and those AR that were multiplied during your cycle will still be activated during PCT. You will not create new AR however the amount you have created over the duration of how ever many cycles you have ran or years of TRT. When you stop; those AR will not go away they are just waiting for your body to produce testosterone again whether it's exogenous or endogenous the body will still be activating those AR. That is how we keep our gains from the cycle and can continue to make progress naturally after years of running gear. Those AR that are created through years of hard training in combination with AAS don't just go away upon cessation of exogenous androgens.

So it doesn't matter that Serms do not directly bind to AR because they will activate AR indirectly as your testosterone is raised albeit through exogenous testosterone or through a SERM. The body doesn't know the difference. But like I said this is all based on my personal experience of running gear on and off for the last 10 to 15 years and just my personal opinion. You can feel free to post literature as your not backing up anything yet stating it as fact

 

[KvanH]

Your very cut and dry my friend. But everytime you run gear you are actually creating new AR within muscle cells and organs; including the brain. So when you stop androgens and start taking serms the AR that have multiplied within the muscle tissue and organs will once again be activated as the Serm will be artificially raising your test levels and those AR that were multiplied during your cycle will still be activated during PCT. You will not create new AR however the amount you have created over the duration of how ever many cycles you have ran or years of TRT. When you stop; those AR will not go away they are just waiting for your body to produce testosterone again whether is exogenous or endogenous the body will still be activating those AR. That is how we keep our gains from the cycle and continue to can continue to make progress naturally after years of running gear. Those AR that are created through years of hard training in combination with AAS don't just go away upon cessation of exogenous androgens.

So it doesn't matter that Serms do not directly bind to AR because they will activate AR indirectly as your testosterone is raised albeit through exogenous testosterone or through a SERM. The body doesn't know the difference. But like I said this is all based on my personal experience of running gear on and off for the last 10 to 15 years and just my personal opinion. You can feel free to post literature as your not backing up anything with literature yet stating it as fact

Well, that's all fair and well, but I'm not sure why you added all that, since it's jumping to a completely new subject that doesn't have anything to do with what we've been talking about.

I feel like sometimes we don't understand each other or something and from my POV, you're jumping to something completely else, every now and then.. But I don't mean any disrespect or ill. It can just get frustrating, when I was questoning what good does Zuclo bring and then you jump to increased T levels (which is the whole purpose of taking a SERM in PCT and Enclo does that by itself) and then to incresed amount of AR's.

But given all the added info you laid out about the increased amount of AR's from gear use and the raised T levels, which Enclo does effectively solo. What good does the Zuclo bring? That's all I meant to question.


You are right though about me not providing any literature. I'll try to see, if I can find something tomorrow. Maybe Oliwer kweens links have something, I haven't checled them out yet. I do feel like some things are generally known though and therefore we can make some logical conclusions without providing literature. Like IF we believe, that Zuclo is an agonist of the ER, then it should have a negative effect on test production, no? At least theoretically by it's MOA, even if not ending up being meaningful in practice.

 

[ugsavage]

Well, that's all fare and well, but I'm not sure why you added all that, since it's jumping to a completely new subject that doesn't have anything to do with what we've been talking about.

I feel like sometimes we don't understand each other or something and from my POV, you're jumping to something completely else, every now and then.. But I don't mean any disrespect or ill. It can just get frustrating, when I was questoning what good does Zuclo bring and then you jump to increased T levels (which is the whole purpose of taking a SERM in PCT and Enclo does that by itself) and then to incresed amount of AR's.

But given all the added info you laid out about the increased amount of AR's from gear use and the raised T levels, which Enclo does effectively solo. What good does the Zuclo bring? That's all I meant to question.


You are right though about me not providing any literature. I'll try to see, if I can find something tomorrow. Maybe Oliwer queens links have something, I haven't checled them out yet. I do feel like some things are generally known though and therefore we can make some logical conclusions without providing literature. Like IF we believe, that Zuclo is an agonist of the ER, then it should have a negative effect on test production, no? At least theoretically by it's MOA, even if not ending up being meaningful in practice.

Zuclo should only have a negative effect if the isomer was to be run without enclo. The combination of zuclo and enclo should provide superior benefits to running just enclo; hpta recovery aside. The most notable benefits of keeping an estrogenic isomer in your body would include increased IGF 1 signaling, increased collagen production, and improved lipids

 

[ugsavage]

This isn't too much to go with, as the study is done on people with acromegaly, a medical condition, that is diagnosed by high IGF-1 levels. But it says right there in your quote, that Clomid decreased the patients IGF-1 levels from up to 2 times the ULN to normal values.

Correct Clomid only decreased their IGF 1 to a normal range and not below that. The article states that it "normalized" or regulated their IGF 1 levels so for a normal person without acromegaly there should be very little if any reduction in IGF 1. Also worth mentioning the patients in the study we're taking 150 mg a day about 3 times what a doctor would prescribe someone for HRT

 

[Oliver Kween]

ugsavage

I was just wondering about the impact of lowering IGF1. What are the body structures that can be affected, or what does it do. Thank you for mentioning the character of the patients afected by acromegaly.

If that be useful for you KvanH
Here is my first research on the subject when I wanted to get an indication of the Clomid and IGF-1 relationship In this docs

Or This

I guess to think about the potential effects on the IGF-1 for avoid it, is to take for example, someone who make injection to take CJC129DAC or Ipamorelin? (I'm not super good at this).

But someone who doesn't injected, must do with MK (something I wouldn't do). Or there must be something oral that helps maintain or raise the IGF1 level?

And here I found some information on the effects of a reduction of igf1, which can reassure someone on the effects.

But this that's does not explain everything. What are the effects on the skin, hair, tendons, etc.

 

[ugsavage]

ugsavage

I was just wondering about the impact of lowering IGF1. What are the body structures that can be affected, or what does it do. Thank you for mentioning the character of the patients afected by acromegaly.

If that be useful for you KvanH
Here is my first research on the subject when I wanted to get an indication of the Clomid and IGF-1 relationship In this docs

Or This

I guess to think about the potential effects on the IGF-1, is to take for example, someone who make injection to take CJC129DAC or Ipamorelin? (I'm not super good at this).

But someone who doesn't injected, must do with MK (something I wouldn't do). Or there must be something oral that helps maintain or raise the IGF1 level?

And here I found some information on the effects of a reduction of igf1, which can reassure someone on the effects.

But this ka does not explain everything. What are the effects on the skin, hair, tendons, etc.

Mk 677 and other peptides/ secretagogues will only raise IGF 1 to the high end of the physiological range. Where as recumbent GH/ IGF 1 has the potential to jack them through the roof causing all sorts of problems.

When I would run IGF Lr3 a bit excessive I could start to notice distention in my midsection but it would go away in a few weeks after stopping. Just have to be careful with raising IGF levels. I wouldn't risk the side effects anymore unless I was competing in bodybuilding and then my first choice would be Mk 677

 

[ugsavage]

@Oliver Kween

I remember that PA; phosphatidic acid was shown to increase igf 1 levels and seemed to be a good alternative to peptides. A very good natty stack is actually PA with Mk 677 and a good creatine like Green Mag or Dark Matter would be even better. I just started taking Acacetin/ Astragalus extracts in hopes to balance out my estrogen as I will be jumping off TRT in two weeks and going to try and PCT. Interesting though I read Acacetin will also raise IGF levels through ghrelin receptor activation. I definitely had an increase in appetite

Also the impact of reducing IGF 1 levels becomes more relevant as we age but for the most part a temporary decrease would be negligible. I have read conflicting studies in the literature as to whether decreased Igf 1 levels will make recovery of hpta more difficult. However all serms will decrease igf 1 levels to my knowledge this is why I like to run Mk 677 about two weeks into PCT

 

[Oliver Kween]

@Oliver Kween

I remember that PA; phosphatidic acid was shown to increase igf 1 levels and seemed to be a good alternative to peptides. A very good natty stack is actually PA with Mk 677 and a good creatine like Green Mag or Dark Matter would be even better. I just started taking Acacetin/ Astragalus extracts in hopes to balance out my estrogen as I will be jumping off TRT in two weeks and going to try and PCT. Interesting though I read Acacetin will also raise IGF levels through ghrelin receptor activation. I definitely had an increase in appetite

Also the impact of reducing IGF 1 levels becomes more relevant as we age but for the most part a temporary decrease would be negligible. I have read conflicting studies in the literature as to whether decreased Igf 1 levels will make recovery of hpta more difficult. However all serms will decrease igf 1 levels to my knowledge this is why I like to run Mk 677 about two weeks into PCT

" phosphatidic acid was shown to increase igf 1 levels and seemed to be a good alternative to peptides"

Exactly I need to find more information on this! Thank you!

The only searches had brought me On these product sources
L-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate and (S)-2,6-Diaminocaproic Acid,
And a BlackStone product

Tests on Ostarine would give results on L'gif but it is not without risk for the porstate

"OST-P exerted favorable effects on muscle weight, expression of myostatin and insulin growth factor-1, but increased prostate weight. OST-T partially improved muscle parameters, showing less effect on the prostate. RAL-P did not show anabolic effects on muscles but improved body constitution by reducing abdominal area, food intake, and BW. OST + RAL-P had an anabolic impact on muscle, reduced androgenic effect on the prostate, and normalized food intake. OST and RAL improved osteoporotic bone.

I just started taking Acacetin/ Astragalus extracts in hopes to balance out my estrogen as I will be jumping off TRT"

Oh ok nice ! Hope that'z work for you.

Yes in the past when I was not interested in IGF, I quickly read that a deficiency could slow HPTA recovery. But that was lgtp ago, I think there had to be a certain condition for that to happen. Not sure but being overweight or having other health issues. Deficiency alone is not enough. More research should be done.

 

[ugsavage]

" phosphatidic acid was shown to increase igf 1 levels and seemed to be a good alternative to peptides"

Exactly I need to find more information on this! Thank you!

The only searches had brought me On these product sources
L-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-carboxylate and (S)-2,6-Diaminocaproic Acid,
And a BlackStone product

Tests on Ostarine would give results on L'gif but it is not without risk for the porstate

"OST-P exerted favorable effects on muscle weight, expression of myostatin and insulin growth factor-1, but increased prostate weight. OST-T partially improved muscle parameters, showing less effect on the prostate. RAL-P did not show anabolic effects on muscles but improved body constitution by reducing abdominal area, food intake, and BW. OST + RAL-P had an anabolic impact on muscle, reduced androgenic effect on the prostate, and normalized food intake. OST and RAL improved osteoporotic bone.

I just started taking Acacetin/ Astragalus extracts in hopes to balance out my estrogen as I will be jumping off TRT"

Oh ok nice ! Hope that'z work for you.

Yes in the past when I was not interested in IGF, I quickly read that a deficiency could slow HPTA recovery. But that was lgtp ago, I think there had to be a certain condition for that to happen. Not sure but being overweight or having other health issues. Deficiency alone is not enough. More research should be done.

Interesting. I researched the ingredients in that Blackstone Labs product and found a similar product by HTP.

L-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-crboxylate seems to be a supplement given to horses to increase natural production of GH. Going off nomenclature it's just arginine bonded to pyroglutamic acid. Would be interested if anyone has tried these products and what kind of studies have been done on humans.

As for decreased IGF 1 levels slowing down recovery of the HPTA the studies are conflicting. Igf 1 levels should return to baseline within a few weeks after stopping a SERM. And if IGF 1 are elevated going into PCT then it takes a few weeks for them to decline so it shouldn't really be an issue as for recovering the hpta however size and strength gains could be lost very quickly; therefore it would be less than ideal to slow down the recovery process

 

[Jeremyk1]

Interesting. I researched the ingredients in that Blackstone Labs product and found a similar product by HTP. Both pretty shady companies but I would still trust Hi Tech over Blackstone Labs just my personal opinion. L-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-crboxylate seems to be a supplement given to horses to increase natural production of GH. Going off nomenclature it's just arginine bonded to pyroglutamic acid. Would be interested if anyone has tried these products and what kind of studies have been done on humans.

I’m pretty sure Hi Tech owns Blackstone now. I don’t know how it all works, but I think Blackstone is included in the “Hi Tech family.”

The Hi Tech IGF1 stuff is half the price too, not sure why Blackstone is so damn expensive.

Isn’t arginine pyroglutamate somewhat common? Not very, but it’s out there. I know I’ve seen it. Funny how every tries to re release everything as some brand new cutting edge ingredient when it’s been on the market for decades.

 

[ugsavage]

I'm going to take back what I told OP about running Clomid first and then taking Enclo the last two weeks of PCT after you have convinced me that zuclo could potentially be problematic; most notably during the first few weeks of PCT.

I would now suggest running the Enclo for the first two weeks of PCT almost like kick-starting a cycle with test prop; not only because the onset of action should be quicker but also without the potential for zuclo to cause problems. That being said I'm going to be running Enclo @ 25 mg the first two weeks of PCT and then switch to regular Clomid @ 50 mg for another 8 to 10 weeks as I'm a week away from running PCT

Thanks again for your input @KvanH

 

[ugsavage]

@Oliver Kween

Please if you could translate that post. It sounds like you are speaking in french

 

[Oliver Kween]

@Oliver Kween

Please if you could translate that post. It sounds like you are speaking in french

Sorry my translator joke me..

interesting. I researched the ingredients of this Blackstone Labs product and found a similar product from HTP.

L-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-crboxylate appears to be a supplement given to horses to increase natural GH production. Going off the nomenclature, it's just arginine bound to pyroglutamic acid. I would be interested if anyone has tried these products and what kind of studies have been done on humans.

When it comes to decreased IGF 1 levels slowing recovery from HPTA, the studies are conflicting. Igf 1 levels should return to baseline a few weeks after stopping a SERM. And if IGF 1s are elevated going into PCT it takes a few weeks for them to decline so that shouldn't really be an issue in terms of HPTA recovery but size and strength gains could be lost very quickly; Therefore, it would not be ideal to slow down the recovery process

[/QUOTE]


Well to be honest with you.
I tried it. More than 4 weeks.
I had added EPIandro and Epicatechin

If I did not notice any weight gain, I saw a big performance in terms of endurance. After 45 minutes of bodybuilding with 2 hours of grappling and 30 minutes of mountain biking (for the return home). It settled down quickly after the 2nd week. 1200mg per day + 300 EPI, in the evening AET50 and 11DHEA. Deepened sleep and improved hunger.

Yes @Jeremyk1 I'm sure you're right. At that time, I was a novice. But I doubt that L-arginine-2-pyrrolidone-5-crboxylate raises GH that much.

Like I said, I didn't notice any crazy muscle growth. But more force yes, that I assign EPi first. Maybe the L-arginine-2-pyrrolidone had some leverage. Regardless, he battled fatigue and lethargy.

I wonder if doing L-arginine-2-pyrrolidone + Samrs as LGD would be a good story.