Lean Ones' PCT w/ Oratropin & Rebound XT

Lean One

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Ok fellas, IT'S ON!! :rant:

Today is oficially Day 1 of PCT using Oratropin and rebound XT. Thanks to IBE and designer supps for the product and oportunity to sample this stuff for myself. I am dosing the OT once a day in the morning, and starting the RXT at 3 caps/day spread out. The log will last 4 weeks.

Body weight this morning is oficially 168lbs. Down from a bloated175, but still up 14 lbs since the start of my cycle. I'm right where I want to be. Waist is 33". down .5 from the bloated peak of the cycle. At my leanest, the waist is usually around 27 or 28 inches. I would say body fat is in the upper single didjits. I look very much like the pic in my avatar.(+10lbs.)

I really don't know what to expect 'cuz I have no experience with IGF1. This is a good thing IMO, cuz I'm very in tune with my body, and I will definitely be able to tell if somethings going on. My goal is to maintain my gains and get leaner. I'll be keeping calories at maintenance for now, but will slowly be cutting back in the last 2 weeks of this experament. I would like to be nice and lean when I do Lean One's ultimate cutter in may. If I like what the OT does now, I'll definitely be incorporating it into that cycle. We'll see how it goes.

So, I took the first dose this morning. Woke up, drank my java,drank some water,brushed my teeth, and then squirted the first dose on my tounge. Intresting experience. I used my tounge to run the paste all along my gums and cheeks. There wasn't much left to swallow, so I think I did it right. The taste was very easy to take too. I've tossed back some nasty **** over the years. :rolleyes: I then waited 1hr and 15 min to eat breakfast. I was expecting to be all hypo, but I wasn't. Breakfast tasted real good though. I was ready to eat. Overall, incorperating this into my morning pattern was easy. Not as high maintenance as I thought it would be. ;)

You guys have any questions, fire away. I'll try to make this as informative as possible. That's it for now. :run:
 
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BodyWizard

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Did you wait an hour between the coffee/water/brushing & the OT?

Glad to see your log's rolling - I'll make some popcorn & settle in for the show!
 

Lean One

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No. the hr wait was between dosing and eating. No water in between. Should I have waited?
 
BodyWizard

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He's been pretty explicit about taking nothing by mouth before or after, & 60 min is the rule he keeps coming back to.

I have a similar quandary - how can I do 1 hr to either side of dosing, and NOT wait TWO HOURS for my COFFEE?!? :eek:

Dosing & going back to bed for 30-45 min ought to work
 
milwood

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From what I gather (and the way I've been doing it) is dose OT with no proir (an hour, at least) eating, drinking, mouthwash, toothpaste, etc. Then wait an hour to eat, drink, etc. as well. Took a few days to figure it out. Now I dose it first thing in the AM, then just wait an hour to do anything. A couple times if I wake early I'll dose it, then go back to bed for an hour or 2. Then when I get up I can eat, drink, etc.
 

tattoopierced1

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yeah, thats what I'm thinking..the late night wake-up dose...no fear of drinking anything then...
 

TBigs

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. I'll be keeping calories at maintenance for now, but will slowly be cutting back in the last 2 weeks of this experament. I would like to be nice and lean when I do Lean One's ultimate cutter in may. If I like what the OT does now, I'll definitely be incorporating it into that cycle. We'll see how it goes.
Sorry to be off topic, but I am interested in hearing what "Lean One's ultimate cutter" consists of.
 

Lean One

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Sorry to be off topic, but I am interested in hearing what "Lean One's ultimate cutter" consists of.
I'll let you know when it happens... Now back to the topic.
 

Lean One

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From what I gather (and the way I've been doing it) is dose OT with no proir (an hour, at least) eating, drinking, mouthwash, toothpaste, etc. Then wait an hour to eat, drink, etc. as well. Took a few days to figure it out. Now I dose it first thing in the AM, then just wait an hour to do anything. A couple times if I wake early I'll dose it, then go back to bed for an hour or 2. Then when I get up I can eat, drink, etc.
I'm gonna have to start setting my clock for 3:45 am then and go back to sleep. I refuse to go a fucking minute without my coffee in the morning. I do stupid **** when that happens.:rolleyes:

Disregard the coment about not being high maintenance. :trout:
 

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I'll be keeping a close eye, Lean One. Thanks for the tip on brushing first, then dosing. I'd been doing the opposite and brushing close to an hour after dosing. Also your dosing method, I'll do exactly that tomorrow.

I've yet to feel any hypo, and this is Day 4 for me. I've dropped 3 pounds this week though and no loss of strength or fullness. And my carbs have not been all that tight but I am in ketosis.
 

Lean One

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I'll be keeping a close eye, Lean One. Thanks for the tip on brushing first, then dosing. I'd been doing the opposite and brushing close to an hour after dosing. Also your dosing method, I'll do exactly that tomorrow..
It would be nice to get some clarification from IBE on this. Is the method I used OK? Or, can one just dose at a more convenient time during the Day? It seems to me that if it's in your system for 24 to 48 hrs, then after day 1 it shouldn't matter when you take it.
 
Alpha Dog

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Today is oficially Day 1 of PCT using Oratropin and rebound XT.

Is this day one of true PCT (meaning the first day that all anabolics from your previous cycle have cleared your system) or just day one using oratropin and rebound xt?

I ask because typically the hardest period of PCT in terms of maintaining LBM are the days immediately preceding the clearing of all exogenous hormones.
 

Lean One

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Well, the last thing I do before going to bed is eat and drink some water.
 

Lean One

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Is this day one of true PCT (meaning the first day that all anabolics from your previous cycle have cleared your system) or just day one using oratropin and rebound xt?

I ask because typically the hardest period of PCT in terms of maintaining LBM are the days immediately preceding the clearing of all exogenous hormones.
It's been 1 week since my last cyp injection.
 

Lean One

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IBE, you out there? Could use some input here.
 
Alpha Dog

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It's been 1 week since my last cyp injection.
Cool. Makes sense now.

Just as an aside, I'm not sure these are the two best compounds to stack with one another (an anti-e with IGF-1). Reason being is that exogenous IGF-1 will suppress growth hormone secretion in itself. Then, to make matters worse, you are eliminating (or reducing) the potential of testosterone to aromatize to estrogen by taking an anti-e. Yet, it is the aromatization of estrogen to testosterone that helps prevent your body from naturally downregulating GH production. An estrogen antagonist, like clomid, may be more beneficial as you would not be preventing the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen, which should help maintain some level of natural GH production even in the presence of exogenous IGF-1 administration.

Quote from Byan Haycock linked here http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/haycock/growth-factors-02.htm

“During puberty there is a disruption in your body’s ability to accurately regulate GH levels leading to increased GH, IGF-1, and insulin levels. This combined with elevated testosterone production characterizes puberty. Research has shown that this disruption is caused by the aromatization of testosterone as well as some direct actions of androgens.�

Pubmed studies to support this conclusion:

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1997 Oct;82(10):3414-20. Related Articles, Links


Estrogen and testosterone, but not a nonaromatizable androgen, direct network integration of the hypothalamo-somatotrope (growth hormone)-insulin-like growth factor I axis in the human: evidence from pubertal pathophysiology and sex-steroid hormone replacement.
Veldhuis JD, Metzger DL, Martha PM Jr, Mauras N, Kerrigan JR, Keenan B, Rogol AD, Pincus SM.

Division of Endocrinology, National Science Foundation Center for Biological Timing, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville 22908, USA. [email protected]

Activation of the gonadotropic and somatotropic axes in puberty is marked by striking amplification of pulsatile neurohormone secretion. In addition, each axis, as a whole, constitutes a regulated network whose feedback relationships are likely to manifest important changes at the time of puberty. Here, we use the regularity statistic, approximate entropy (ApEn), to assess feedback activity within the somatotropic (hypothalamo-pituitary/GH-insulin-like growth factor I) axis indirectly. To this end, we studied pubertal boys and prepubertal girls or boys with sex-steroid hormone deficiency treated short-term with estrogen, testosterone, or a nonaromatizable androgen in a total of 3 paradigms. First, our cross-sectional analysis of 53 boys at various stages of puberty or young adulthood revealed that mean ApEn, taken as a measure of feedback complexity, of 24-h serum GH concentration profiles is maximal in pre- and mid-late puberty, followed by a significant decline in postpubertal adolescence and young adulthood (P = 0.0008 by ANOVA). This indicates that marked disorderliness of the GH release process occurs in mid-late puberty at or near the time of peak growth velocity, with a return to maximal orderliness thereafter at reproductive maturity. Second, oral administration of ethinyl estradiol for 5 weeks to 7 prepubertal girls with Turner's syndrome also augmented ApEn significantly (P = 0.018), thus showing that estrogen per se can induce greater irregularity of GH secretion. Third, in 5 boys with constitutionally delayed puberty, im testosterone administration also significantly increased ApEn of 24-h GH time series (P = 0.0045). In counterpoint, 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone, a nonaromatizable androgen, failed to produce a significant ApEn increase (P > 0.43). We conclude from these three distinct experimental contexts that aromatization of testosterone to estrogen in boys, or estrogen itself in girls, is likely the proximate sex-steroid stimulus amplifying secretory activity of the GH axis in puberty. In addition, based on inferences derived from mathematical models that mechanistically link increased disorderliness (higher ApEn) to network changes, we suggest that sex-steroid hormones in normal puberty modulate feedback within, and hence network function of, the hypothalamo-pituitary/GH-insulin-like growth factor I axis.

...................................................................................
Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol. 1997 Feb;71(2):215-7.

The pubertal spurt: effects of sex steroids on growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor I.

Caufriez A.

Laboratory of Experimental Medicine, Universite Libre de Bruxelles, Belgium. [email protected]

In puberty, the growth spurt and the appearance of secondary sex characteristics occur concomitantly with an increase of sex steroids, growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I). A number of experiments indicate that sex steroids exert a stimulatory action on the somatotropic axis. This effect is due to an amplifying action of oestradiol (secreted by the ovaries or after testosterone aromatization) on the neuroendocrine regulation of pulsatile GH release.
 

Lean One

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Intresting. However, I will stay the course. ;)
 

ersatz

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Wouldn't/shouldn't brushing your teeth before OT increase its absorption? I would think all the mucous and other crap from a long night's sleep would hinder the absorption of OT.
 

Lean One

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Wouldn't/shouldn't brushing your teeth before OT increase its absorption? I would think all the mucous and other crap from a long night's sleep would hinder the absorption of OT.
I was thinking the same thing. Just to be safe though, I woke this morning at 5:00, dosed it, went back to sleep til 7:00. I'll continue to do it this way unless IBE says I can do it the way I did on day 1.It's a pain in the ass though. I hope it's worth screwing with my sleep.

IBE! WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU!!? :rant: I'd apreciate your input.
 

garrithv

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IBE is probably at the Arnold. Just like every other
company ive been trying to contact. LOL
 

Lean One

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He was on the board last night. We coresponded through PM. I just thought he might have chimed in to this log by now.
 
kwyckemynd00

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*subscribes*

Best of luck w/ the PCT LO. I'm sure it'll be great. Feedback seems to kick ass on RXT so far and OraTropin seems to def. be doin' it's job too. Maybe you'll gain some LBM while recovering! (wouldn't that be some **** :D)
 

Lean One

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*subscribes*

Best of luck w/ the PCT LO. I'm sure it'll be great. Feedback seems to kick ass on RXT so far and OraTropin seems to def. be doin' it's job too. Maybe you'll gain some LBM while recovering! (wouldn't that be some **** :D)
Indeed. :cool:
 

Lean One

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Ok guy's this is what you should do or not do.....what I do is wake up brush teeth and then drink some coffee and then wait about 1-hour and then take my dose I eat 1 hour after dose and thats about it. now taking right after brushing should be no problem. I herd from the company that mouth wash will increase absorption but you must not use mouth wash right after dosing because the alcohol will kill the IGF and the drug technology system. if I left something out please let me know
WHOOHOO! :drunk: You just made my day! :thumbsup:

That means I can do it the way I did on day 1 and not worry. I'll just pound down some coffee, brush the teeth and dose it. I can easily wait an hr to eat as long as I get my coffee! :lol:

I like the idea of not fucking up my sleep too. :thumbsup:

Thanks IBE.
 

garrithv

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RECTAL HAHAHA LOL!:rofl:
A few questions for His Leaness (Lean One) , or any1 else

1) I see IGF used for pct by most people , Is it a PCT product or can you
run it as a course the same way you would run a ph course?

2) Im running s1+ and SD. Can I used Oratropin as pct alone or can I use nolva with it?
Ive read not to take it with and anti-e.

3) with regards to Oratropin ive read no ECA or anti-e , what about inj IGF?
 

Lean One

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RECTAL HAHAHA LOL!:rofl:
A few questions for His Leaness (Lean One) , or any1 else

1) I see IGF used for pct by most people , Is it a PCT product or can you
run it as a course the same way you would run a ph course?

2) Im running s1+ and SD. Can I used Oratropin as pct alone or can I use nolva with it?
Ive read not to take it with and anti-e.

3) with regards to Oratropin ive read no ECA or anti-e , what about inj IGF?
You can use OT alone or during PCT or with a cycle of PH/PS. I don't know about the anti e rule. I never heard that.Same thing about ECA. Mabey someone else can explain that.
 
Alpha Dog

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The elimination of an anti-estrogen with IGF-1 was not something I had ever read of either. After reading about LO’s stack, I had just remembered reading Haycock’s theory (it had been several years prior) that the IGF-1 feedback loop was very much influenced by the aromatization of testosterone. It was postulated (and supported by medical studies) that the reason pubescent males experienced such elevated gh, insulin and IGF-1 levels was due to elevated testosterone levels during puberty and the aromatization of that testosterone to estrogen. I have also read that one of the reasons exogenous IGF-1 administration had such varied results amongst some individuals was that the feedback loop was so profound that the body quickly shuts down natural GH production and systemically clears the body of all supraphysiological levels of IGF-1 (I don’t remember the exact mechanism of which).

It is for this reason that I would speculate that during PCT you could at least potentiate the response of IGF-1 administration by elevating natural testosterone production; but then allowing that increased testosterone aramotize. For this purpose, estrogen antagonists have proven to be effective.

As for the effects of an ECA during IGF-1 administration, I have neither read nor could speculate as to any negative effects.
 

Buc4Life04

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No... They're rectal. :icon_lol:
Wonder if that would work. Wouldnt have to worrie about eating or drinking for
1hr before and after. I was thinking brush you teeth with no tooth paste or mouthwash
first just water then dose then wait an hr. Just to get all the "gunk" off your tounge and cheeks.
 

garrithv

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thanks


The anti-e and ECA comments I read in some of the many
IGF posts here. Maybe I misread it? anyway rather safe
than sorry.... more alone the lines of safe that waste
plenty of $'s :thumbsup:
 

Lean One

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Day 4

Weight. 166 lbs.

Nothing much to report yet on the OT front, but I have some good news regarding the RXT.

I think the drop in weight is due to loosing some water. I noticed my urine is a little darker over the last couple days. I've been trying to drink more water. The good news is that I had a small lump and sensitivity under my right nip the last week or so of my cycle. I was dosing Nolva at 40 mg/day and it helped keep it at bay and reduced it a little, but it was still there. Since starting the RXT, I've dropped the nolva down to 20mg. Well, I noticed yesterday that the symptoms are completely gone. I can't even feel a small lump there. :thumbsup: It's definitely doing its job.

The only thing I'm worried about is a drop in libido. However, I was able to throw 2 good loads into my girl yesterday so I guess I can't complain. :lol: I do have some Vitrix on hand though just in case. It usually does a nice job getting me through PCT. Onward...
 
milwood

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LO----"throwing 2 good loads....."........................................nice!
 

Lean One

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LO----"throwing 2 good loads....."........................................nice!
Yeah, I was quite proud of myself. Especially being in PCT. She got me wooded up for a third, but i knew it just wasn't gonna happen. :sad:

Gotta find where I put that ciallis... :smite:
 

good_guye28

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well lean one what are you thinking of it so far?

is this something that works better on people that are older? hmmmm havent read anything on that yet.
 

Lean One

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I dunno. Too early to tell I think. I want to make sure I have some concrete stuff to report before I comment on it. I really want to be as objective as possible.
 

Lean One

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Update

Ok fellas, I don't have any maijor stuff to report, but I know you guys are jonesing for updates. So here goes.

Weight this morning,167lbs. I'm looking a tad leaner, though I think this is mostly due to the effects of RXT. My watch witch was uncomfortably tight around my wrist, now falls down to my hand easily. I'm a bit suprised at how vascular my arms look considering the extra girth around my waist.Again, This is likely a result of sub Q water loss, but The OT could be playing a role too. I'm also happy to report that I have not experienced any symptoms of hypo like I thought I would. I do notice on some days, I feel like a good nap is in order, but it's not that bad, Nothing a little cafeene won't cure. Overall, I feel good, and to still be up 13lbs from my cycle is nice. If I lean out noticably and can keep the scale above 160, then I'll consider this trial a success.
 
motiv8er

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Lean One:

Hey Man,

Have you noticed a greater need for carbs? What are you eating around WO times? Also how much cardio are you doing at what intensity? Ie: Are you going to need more carbs than the average joe who doesn't love cardio unless they have to? I am curious of what your opinion is of Igf-1's effect on cardio response and recovery, do you think an endurance athlete might find this to be a great get-into-season substance. Purely your opinion a week in... maybe a response to some of this in another week would be more accurate; but I figure you are starting to see the syn/ benefits of your PCT goodies.

If it wasn't like buying a cycle of hormones or a questionable supp ( my jury isn't quite satisfied yet...) then I wouldn't be so damn geeky!! Thanks for whatever info you can offer! :box:

Also, I am nursing a broken, crushed toe; I wonder what effects igf-1 has on injuries? Or the rest of the organizim while having to alter training accordingly. I am not doing a lot of heavy lower extremity work right now, as you might imagine. Particurily this one. Tough for a cardio-for-serenity case.

Isn't being a gunea pig tough :poke: :poke: :poke:
 

Lean One

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Hey Man,

Have you noticed a greater need for carbs? What are you eating around WO times? Also how much cardio are you doing at what intensity? Ie: Are you going to need more carbs than the average joe who doesn't love cardio unless they have to? I am curious of what your opinion is of Igf-1's effect on cardio response and recovery, do you think an endurance athlete might find this to be a great get-into-season substance. Purely your opinion a week in... maybe a response to some of this in another week would be more accurate; but I figure you are starting to see the syn/ benefits of your PCT goodies.

If it wasn't like buying a cycle of hormones or a questionable supp ( my jury isn't quite satisfied yet...) then I wouldn't be so damn geeky!! Thanks for whatever info you can offer! :box:

Also, I am nursing a broken, crushed toe; I wonder what effects igf-1 has on injuries? Or the rest of the organizim while having to alter training accordingly. I am not doing a lot of heavy lower extremity work right now, as you might imagine. Particurily this one. Tough for a cardio-for-serenity case.

Isn't being a gunea pig tough :poke: :poke: :poke:
Ok first of all, I do not "love" cardio. It's a tool.Cheap and effective.

Now that that's out of the way,I havn't noticed a greater need for carbs. My diet is basicly unchanged except I'm slowly reducing carbs in certain meals. Regardless of total carb intake, I always make sure to consume at least 30gm from oats 1 hr pre WO and a low GI PWO meal with about 40 to 60gm carbs.

Cardio is always low intensity for 45 to 55 min at least 5x/wk. I'm shooting for everyday though now that I'm gearing up to cut. It's funny that you asked about endurance, 'cuz today it was phenominal. My THR was a good 10 BPM lower at the usual speed and resistance level. I felt like I could go on forever. This is good. My shoulder WO today was great too. strength was good as was endurance. I think the OT is starting to kick in. :thumbsup:
 
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Lean One

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Update.

It's starting to get intresting.

Weight 164 this morning. Definitely look leaner.Waist is down .5 to 32.5". The best part is I'm not really trying that hard. :p

I trained chest and back today and had a great workout. Endurance was up. So was strength. Added 5 lbs to dumbell flyes to reach a personal best of 55lbs. This is a huge accomplishment for me considdering the issues I have with both shoulders. I know I could have done more, but I was mentally freaked out enough repping with 55s. :rolleyes: The pump was kickass. I have also been feeling suprisingly full for the last few days. This is all unheard of for me during PCT. I'm F-ing siked! :thumbsup:

Gotta go eat now. I'm ravenous. :run:
 
Beelzebub

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It's starting to get intresting.

Weight 164 this morning. Definitely look leaner.Waist is down .5 to 32.5". The best part is I'm not really trying that hard. :p
you're a dick. i hope your face catches on fire. :whip:
 

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