Im 45, first time bloodwork confused about free test

ax1

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Yeah I know, 45 and first time I checked, never too late I guess. I have multiple oral cycles over the years including from halodrol to superdrol and several others. Came off a cycle of DMZ with clomid for pct about a month last day clomid before the test. I am following up with a physical next week to discuss my bloodwork.

To my surprise my test levels were much higher than I imagined (thought Id be shut down from long term oral use, lol)
653 ng/dL

But my confusion is the measurement of my free testosterone. It is measured in pg/mL
Testosterone, Free
115.6 pg/mL
Reference Range 35-155

Im assuming my Test is all good and well and decent, but Im not matching up my " pg/mL" with other measurements Im finding online (they are using other measurements) to see if its ok other than the reference range my lab provided me.

I will post some of my labs in the next post off my phone.

Disclaimer: Im not asking for medical advice, just peoples opinions. I will go over my labs with my doctor soon :)
 
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ax1

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Some of the lab work, I made sure to include some red whistles, my TSH is a little concerning.

IMG_3276.JPG
IMG_3277.JPG
IMG_3278.JPG
 
KvanH

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115.6 pg/mL = 11.6 ng/dl. That's not very good, but not alarming low. The ref range is quite unusual, for what I've seen.
 
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cylon357

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I couldn't tell exactly, but when did you get the bloodwork relative to your last dose of Clomid? Your "real numbers" could be skewed from that.
 
ax1

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I couldn't tell exactly, but when did you get the bloodwork relative to your last dose of Clomid? Your "real numbers" could be skewed from that.
The blood test was about a month after my last day of my clomid cycle, and that was a 6 weeks long clomid pct after my DMZ cycle.
 
ax1

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115.6 pg/mL = 11.6 ng/dl. That's not very good, but not alarming low. The ref range is quite unusual, for what I've seen.
Ok thanks, so it looks like you divide by 10. So it seems 300-800 is the normal range ng/dl. so you think thats not "alarming low?" It sounds alarmingly low to me, lol
 
KvanH

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Ok thanks, so it looks like you divide by 10. So it seems 300-800 is the normal range ng/dl. so you think thats not "alarming low?" It sounds alarmingly low to me, lol
1 nano = 1 000 pico and 1 dl = 100 ml, so in this case, yes divide by 10. Where did you get that ref range? That looks more like a ref range for pmol/l, which is more used in Europe. 9.0 - 30.0 ng/dl is one ref range I've seen used for free T.
 
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KvanH

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That 300 - 800 ng/dl could also be a ref range for total Test in some labs, but not for free T.
 
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ax1

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1 nano = 1 000 pico and 1 dl = 100 ml, so in this case, yes divide by 10. Where did you get that ref range? That looks more like a ref range for pmol/l, which is more used in Europe. 9.0 - 30.0 ng/dl is one ref range I've seen used for free T.
I see its hard to see on a pc, but my screen shot I posted was directly shown on my Quest Diagnostics lab work above. The reference range is right below the "TESTOSTERONE, FREE" part.

I am in NY USA.
 
KvanH

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I see its hard to see on a pc, but my screen shot I posted was directly shown on my Quest Diagnostics lab work above. The reference range is right below the "TESTOSTERONE, FREE" part.

I am in NY USA.
Yes, but that is the 35 - 155 pg/ml, that you mentioned in your OP. So that would be 3.5 - 15.5 ng/dl. Which is a bit odd ref range, like I said earlier.
 
KvanH

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The ref range in your lab results puts your free T in the higher end. But from the ref ranges I've usually seen, your free T would be in the low end. But inside ref ranges, in any case.
 
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cylon357

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The blood test was about a month after my last day of my clomid cycle, and that was a 6 weeks long clomid pct after my DMZ cycle.
Is that far enough out for the effects of the clomid to be done? I've always heard 6 to 8 weeks after PCT wraps, but maybe that is old thinking. I know that the enclomiphene part of clomid only has like a 10 to 12 hour half life, but the zuclomiphene part is on the order of 10 days, IIRC.
 
ax1

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Is that far enough out for the effects of the clomid to be done? I've always heard 6 to 8 weeks after PCT wraps, but maybe that is old thinking. I know that the enclomiphene part of clomid only has like a 10 to 12 hour half life, but the zuclomiphene part is on the order of 10 days, IIRC.
I really dont know, I did use MALabs Clomid.

I see maybe the timing wasnt the best to get my test check, I was in a situation I was trying to get my wife who doesnt do doctor visits unless an emergency either to have a overall checkup, and I did it by convincing her to go together and start a relationship with a family doctor. We actually detected something she wasnt aware of that was in danger that saved her life so it paid off :)

We are both planning on going to see the doctor regularly now, I just have to figure out this testosterone issue and also juggle the fact we are spending 5 digit dollars to address her issue with her anemia but thats another story.

I think Ill see an endo down the road if my family doc doesnt address the test issue, but our money needs to prioritize on her. So in the meantime Ill have to consider running clomid for a couple more months then taking a few month break before getting a blood test again, maybe I can ramp things up and avoid TRT if my free test is indeed low. Thinks I have to think about.
 
KvanH

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I really dont know, I did use MALabs Clomid.

I see maybe the timing wasnt the best to get my test check, I was in a situation I was trying to get my wife who doesnt do doctor visits unless an emergency either to have a overall checkup, and I did it by convincing her to go together and start a relationship with a family doctor. We actually detected something she wasnt aware of that was in danger that saved her life so it paid off :)

We are both planning on going to see the doctor regularly now, I just have to figure out this testosterone issue and also juggle the fact we are spending 5 digit dollars to address her issue with her anemia but thats another story.

I think Ill see an endo down the road if my family doc doesnt address the test issue, but our money needs to prioritize on her. So in the meantime Ill have to consider running clomid for a couple more months then taking a few month break before getting a blood test again, maybe I can ramp things up and avoid TRT if my free test is indeed low. Thinks I have to think about.
That's rough about the money needed to treat her, but like you said the check up sure did pay off. I wish all the best for your wife and hope you guys get the issue fixed/under control 🙏

About your T levels; your TT is fine. It might still be 'artificially' elevated by the Clomid, but anyway I would rather try to address the free T directly, meaning lowering shbg. Would be good to measure that via blood work as well. Boron is one cheap way to try to lower shbg. Tongat Ali is another one. And I'm not sure about Clomid and serms in general, but Tamoxifen for example can raise shbg. Are you experiencing some low T symptoms or why do you feel like you need to "figure out this testosterone issue"?

Apex Alchemy Hyperion is designed to lower shbg and optimize hormone levels and has gotten some great feedback. SNS Optimize T and CEL M-Test other growd favorites for getting more out of your endogenous hormone production. I name these just for something for you to check out, not to say you shouldn't keep consulting your dr.
 
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That's rough about the money needed to treat her, but like you said the check up sure did pay off. I wish all the best for your wife and hope you guys get the issue fixed/under control 🙏

About your T levels; your TT is fine. It might still be 'artificially' elevated by the Clomid, but anyway I would rather try to address the free T directly, meaning lowering shbg. Would be good to measure that via blood work as well. Boron is one cheap way to try to lower shbg. Tongat Ali is another one. And I'm not sure about Clomid and serms in general, but Tamoxifen for example can raise shbg. Are you experiencing some low T symptoms or why do you feel like you need to "figure out this testosterone issue"?

Apex Alchemy Hyperion is designed to lower shbg and optimize hormone levels and has gotten some great feedback. SNS Optimize T and CEL M-Test other growd favorites for getting more out of your endogenous hormone production. I name these just for something for you to check out, not to say you shouldn't keep consulting your dr.
Thanks for the kind words for my wife, we will be ok, its just she needs things done and we dont know what we are getting into and this is clearing our HSA savings account, but we have insurance covering some and do have savings on hand so we will be good.

Im not sure if I am experiencing "T" symptoms, but I can say I feel older at 45 and less energetic that I did 10 years ago. My drive is not as hard. Could be psychological but overall Im good so I dont mean it that way. I wanted a full overall exam and just made sure my doc included Test since I do have history of steroid use, but my wife and doc dont know about that so that has to be that, I have to keep that away from her. I really expected to be shut down simply from using cycles both hard toxic and mild since 2009 so I do have something to cheer about. But to be clear to answer your question, my age is catching up to me!!! LOL

I actually forgot to mention I took M-test during my clomid PCT, that ended about 2 weeks before my blood test. Ill look into lowering shbg and be sure to avoid Tamox, and its a good thing you say that since I do have that on hand. Ill look into the other supps you mentioned and thanks for taking the time to help me out.
 
ax1

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Thanks, Ill go through all of that :)

Does that Apex Alchemy leave a scent? Thats one thing Im worried about, some Ive used in the past leave a heavy smell, some others make it barely noticeable such as Prototype Nutrition sprays.
 
KvanH

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Thanks, Ill go through all of that :)

Does that Apex Alchemy leave a scent? Thats one thing Im worried about, some Ive used in the past leave a heavy smell, some others make it barely noticeable such as Prototype Nutrition sprays.
I haven't used Hyperion myself, so I don't know for sure, but from what I remember / have seen, only Ursa Major has gotten some complaint about strong scent from the Apex TD's. I happen to like the eucalyptus smell of Ursa Major, but it does have a pretty strong scent. But Hyperion may not leave any scent, at least I don't recall anyone saying anything about it.
 
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Smont

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The blood test was about a month after my last day of my clomid cycle, and that was a 6 weeks long clomid pct after my DMZ cycle.
I would test again 3 months post pct, the clomid still had your test levels elevated. They could still be that high but bloods were too close to pct to know if that's what you can produce on your own.

And lay off the orals and up your cardio!, cholesterol should not be out of whack that far after your cycle.
 
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NoAddedHmones

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You need to follow up on that TSH, its extremely high, potentially Hasimoto’s thyroiditis.

Even with normal t3 levels it can be having a profound impact on well being.

WBC being low as well should be looked into.
 
Smont

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You need to follow up on that TSH, its extremely high, potentially Hasimoto’s thyroiditis.

Even with normal t3 levels it can be having a profound impact on well being.

WBC being low as well should be looked into.
What are the side effect/causes of low WBC, I know infections and stuff but outside of that? It's not something thats very common from what I've seen. My cousin has loupes RIP, her WBC was always low
 
NoAddedHmones

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What are the side effect/causes of low WBC, I know infections and stuff but outside of that? It's not something thats very common from what I've seen. My cousin has loupes RIP, her WBC was always low
It can be many different things ranging from transitory impact from intense training, an infection through to more serious autoimmune or other types of diseases.

I have recently seen a few friends bloods shortly after covid showing similar skewing between wbc and tsh levels.

It is definitely something to look into.
 
Cheeky Monkey

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I think this week's stock market miniscule ups and significant downs could have impacted your test levels as well :eek: (inside joke with OP)
 
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JD284

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You need to follow up on that TSH, its extremely high, potentially Hasimoto’s thyroiditis.

Even with normal t3 levels it can be having a profound impact on well being.

WBC being low as well should be looked into.
I agree, I’ve had thyroid issues my whole life and check it multiple times a year because of all the supplements. I had hashimoto and now it’s just hypothyroidism. 175mcg a day. OP I’d look up symptoms to see if you’re experiencing any. I used to have very noticeable symptoms
 
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You need to follow up on that TSH, its extremely high, potentially Hasimoto’s thyroiditis.

Even with normal t3 levels it can be having a profound impact on well being.

WBC being low as well should be looked into.
I have my first ever annual health exam with bloodwork on the 6th, so Ill be sure to listen with what he says. Id bet he will be ordering more extensive labs, I see you can check for antibodies so at least it doesnt seem complicated to figure that out.

I have already complained to him Im feeling my age and that I do have alot of joint problems and cant preform like I did 10 years ago so that is in line with some symptoms, but for now that can be anything, including just getting old lol.

Now that I think about it I do have this sensation of swelling around my neck but I dont have any visible goiters or anything like that.

It can be many different things ranging from transitory impact from intense training, an infection through to more serious autoimmune or other types of diseases.

I have recently seen a few friends bloods shortly after covid showing similar skewing between wbc and tsh levels.

It is definitely something to look into.
I do think I has covid right after Christmas although getting a test was near impossible at that time so I will never know. I am vaxxed. I also did get sick in Novermber, at that time I tested negative so I cant just assume I had it. I will write a note about that and bring it up with my doctor, but I cant assume he knows all this stuff either, the covid world has been such topic of discussion as of late.
 
Smont

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I agree, I’ve had thyroid issues my whole life and check it multiple times a year because of all the supplements. I had hashimoto and now it’s just hypothyroidism. 175mcg a day. OP I’d look up symptoms to see if you’re experiencing any. I used to have very noticeable symptoms
175mcg per day of what ....
 

JD284

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Do you have to take that for life?
I do, yes. My thyroid has always been underperforming so it always needs supplemental T4. As I side note, I understand T4 can be purchased as a research chem with the intention of aiding weight loss. There are many better options on the table for weight loss as extra T4 can trigger "hyperthyroidism" symptoms which are the opposite of hypo. With TSH and free T4 in check you will certainly feel better - for me, it is more of an overall "well being" feeling than a particular symptom. When I was first diagnosed as a teen, the most prominent symptoms were brain fog and lack of energy.

One of the challenges with this disease or disorder is that pretty much any muscle building or bodybuilding supplement can impact your thyroid function, absorption of T4, or conversion of T4 to T3, which can make your assigned dose be more or less effectiove. For example, I didnt want to change when i have breakfast so i had my doc up my dose because my breakfast shakes have vitamins that inhibit absorption. I made my dose for my schedule / consistent supplements, rather than based on nothing in my system. I do try to take it at a consistent time, and i have found that even with my TSH slightly elevated, i am not really impacted. I would consider 10 elevated but not high. High is in the hundreds which means your thyroid isnt doing its job at all, which is bad.
 
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I do, yes. My thyroid has always been underperforming so it always needs supplemental T4. As I side note, I understand T4 can be purchased as a research chem with the intention of aiding weight loss. There are many better options on the table for weight loss as extra T4 can trigger "hyperthyroidism" symptoms which are the opposite of hypo. With TSH and free T4 in check you will certainly feel better - for me, it is more of an overall "well being" feeling than a particular symptom. When I was first diagnosed as a teen, the most prominent symptoms were brain fog and lack of energy.

One of the challenges with this disease or disorder is that pretty much any muscle building or bodybuilding supplement can impact your thyroid function, absorption of T4, or conversion of T4 to T3, which can make your assigned dose be more or less effectiove. For example, I didnt want to change when i have breakfast so i had my doc up my dose because my breakfast shakes have vitamins that inhibit absorption. I made my dose for my schedule / consistent supplements, rather than based on nothing in my system. I do try to take it at a consistent time, and i have found that even with my TSH slightly elevated, i am not really impacted. I would consider 10 elevated but not high. High is in the hundreds which means your thyroid isnt doing its job at all, which is bad.
Speaking of taking t4 as a weight loss aid, I have never directly purchased t3 or t4 research chems for weight loss but I have used OTC 3,3 and 3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine supplements over the past 14 years on and off, and not as much now as I have years ago. I did one cycle last year, maybe my only one the last 3-4 years. There was an instance a supplement company starting with a letter "G" (not trying to get sued lol) that had spiked their 3,3 and 3,5 supplement with thyroid hormone, I think it was straight t3 which I took a couple of time back in 08-10. Each cycle I would PCT with 7-keto dhea and sometimes also with kelp. There was at least another company that has questionable products caught on the market that I used their 3,3 and 3,5 but this is just on speculation on my part based on some other tainted products they had on the shelf.

Anyways the point is here I am years later, so is there a connection? Maybe, I dont think we know for sure nor have I ever had blood work done on my thyroid but I think Im going to retire those kinda supplements from here on.

One thing I can know for certain, taking 3,3 and 3,5 suppements the past couple cycles I felt more tired and lethargic taking them which is why I probably didnt frequent them as much the past 4-5 years or so. Last years cycle wasnt too enjoyable.
 

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Speaking of taking t4 as a weight loss aid, I have never directly purchased t3 or t4 research chems for weight loss but I have used OTC 3,3 and 3,5-diiodo-L-thyronine supplements over the past 14 years on and off, and not as much now as I have years ago. I did one cycle last year, maybe my only one the last 3-4 years. There was an instance a supplement company starting with a letter "G" (not trying to get sued lol) that had spiked their 3,3 and 3,5 supplement with thyroid hormone, I think it was straight t3 which I took a couple of time back in 08-10. Each cycle I would PCT with 7-keto dhea and sometimes also with kelp. There was at least another company that has questionable products caught on the market that I used their 3,3 and 3,5 but this is just on speculation on my part based on some other tainted products they had on the shelf.

Anyways the point is here I am years later, so is there a connection? Maybe, I dont think we know for sure nor have I ever had blood work done on my thyroid but I think Im going to retire those kinda supplements from here on.

One thing I can know for certain, taking 3,3 and 3,5 suppements the past couple cycles I felt more tired and lethargic taking them which is why I probably didnt frequent them as much the past 4-5 years or so. Last years cycle wasnt too enjoyable.
Sorry for the delay. It is certainly possible. You may want to retire the thyroid supplements as you mentioned and then keep an eye on your TSH level. Since you have an elevated TSH you may notice symptoms but it is different for everyone. If it is still elevated later this year you may want to see an endocrinologist who can specialize your T4 medication based on your lifestyle/other supplements your taking. If you're interested, this two piece article has some great introductory information without getting too scientific. Skim it and see if you can relate at all:
 
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JD284

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Also to note, in that article i find this section interesting- and this is why i take a higher dose as it makes breakfast very difficult with those windows. I have Huel with Milk every day, so a double whammy to my meds.

INTERACTIONS OF T4
Be aware that when and how you take medication does influence its effectiveness. For example, thyroid medication should not be taken with calcium or iron. Both of these minerals bind with thyroid hormone and make it unavailable for your body's use.
Thus, you should avoid milk products two hours before and after taking thyroid medication. There are also some medications that alter T4 levels.
Aspirin, danazol and propanolol have been shown to increase T4 levels and furosemide, methadone, lithium, aluminum-containing antacids, colestipol, and rifampicin have been shown to decrease T4 levels.
There are also some unique interactions. Progesterone and estrogen are substances that can bind with T4, but also tend to increase T3 levels. Anabolic steroids tend to decrease thyroid hormone levels. Finally, thyroid hormone can suppress insulin, an important consideration for diabetics and bodybuilders using insulin.
Finally, if diagnosed with hypothyroidism, you will be taking medication for the rest of your life.
 
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Doctor is considering medication but he will issue me another blood test in 6 weeks to get a 2nd reading and also a full thyroid panel.

In the meantime, I asked he said it’s ok for me to supplement with 150mcg of iodine and1 gram l-tyrosine a day, hopefully I can avoid the meds.

I had a talk with him about the testing standards and after some debate he agreed that next time in the future I’ll go to another lab. I’m not rushing into it but I’m taking the right steps forward.

Started taking boron, I would prefer to stay away from TRT but will if I have to.
 
ax1

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Also to note, in that article i find this section interesting- and this is why i take a higher dose as it makes breakfast very difficult with those windows. I have Huel with Milk every day, so a double whammy to my meds.

INTERACTIONS OF T4
Be aware that when and how you take medication does influence its effectiveness. For example, thyroid medication should not be taken with calcium or iron. Both of these minerals bind with thyroid hormone and make it unavailable for your body's use.
Thus, you should avoid milk products two hours before and after taking thyroid medication. There are also some medications that alter T4 levels.
Aspirin, danazol and propanolol have been shown to increase T4 levels and furosemide, methadone, lithium, aluminum-containing antacids, colestipol, and rifampicin have been shown to decrease T4 levels.
There are also some unique interactions. Progesterone and estrogen are substances that can bind with T4, but also tend to increase T3 levels. Anabolic steroids tend to decrease thyroid hormone levels. Finally, thyroid hormone can suppress insulin, an important consideration for diabetics and bodybuilders using insulin.
Finally, if diagnosed with hypothyroidism, you will be taking medication for the rest of your life.
Being that I wasn’t too far off a DMZ cycle I’m hoping my thyroid was only temporarily suppressed by the cycle. 6 more weeks we will see and if the supplements I’m taking help.
 
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I’m following up on my thyroid, my test issues can wait.

Anyways finally did my full thyroid panel, will see doc on Friday.

Have been supplementing the past 6 weeks with 300 mcg iodine and 1gram tyrosine.

TSH slightly improved, it’s below 10.

IMG_3601.JPG
 
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My doctor wanted to put me in a tiny amount of meds for it, but being that I have improved in 6 weeks with supplementation (iodine and tyrosine) I chose to pass and get re-tested in 2-3 months and see if my TSH goes down even further.

Also, Im not tooooo far out for a DMZ cycle and even more recently MK677 and staying clean in the meantime.

If I dont get improvements my next test I probably will start with the small dose. I just wanna be sure before I go on meds that I may have to stay on for life.
 

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