HiTech Andriol - thought on this?

[thescience]

I'm saying it in reference to pretty much everything about oral testosterone. And the point made above too. Literally every year someone comes out with a "new method" and the reason theres a new method every year is because last years method was bullshit and next years will be too

i need to hear this. i got test boosters that are falling short and the claims about oral test undecanoate im getting are coming from a salesman who sounds like he has less knowledge on the topic than me and im extremely ignorant about hormone use.

so these clinics are testing and claiming that theyre achieving their target testosterone count goals. they say patients are taking 1-4 200mg pills, so it looks like alot isnt being absorbed. my feeling is getting someone to 1200 via 1 injection a week vs 4x that amount/day and reaching the same goal, i dont see the problem. are there people complaining that they dont like the dip when the half-life drops later in the day? it looks like kyzatrex is claiming no testicular shrinkage and no fertility issues

 

[thescience]

Even if you're taking less than you produce it still happens. Theres studies were ppl took 25mg, 50mg, 100mg and so on.

The 25 and 50mg group Lowered their natural testosterone production

is it possible those studies were referencing a form of test that runs sky high day and night? i suppose we would all know by now if the exogenous test from your average otc 4-dhea resulted in zero shutdown, but then again it's hard to know how people dose it and if they were only dosing in the AM

 

[thescience]

also, what's the theoretical consensus on here that if someone were to take andriol to say bump from 550 to 900 or something for a year straight as theyre suggesting? are we talking shrivelled nuts and the possibility of not being able to get back to the 550 after the fact even if following with pct?

 

[thescience]

it's ghastly to think a clinic would turn me into a lifetime consumer by making up claims that "are about to be cleared with FDA

 

[Hyde]

i need to hear this. i got test boosters that are falling short and the claims about oral test undecanoate im getting are coming from a salesman who sounds like he has less knowledge on the topic than me and im extremely ignorant about hormone use.

so these clinics are testing and claiming that theyre achieving their target testosterone count goals. they say patients are taking 1-4 200mg pills, so it looks like alot isnt being absorbed. my feeling is getting someone to 1200 via 1 injection a week vs 4x that amount/day and reaching the same goal, i dont see the problem. are there people complaining that they dont like the dip when the half-life drops later in the day? it looks like kyzatrex is claiming no testicular shrinkage and no fertility issues

is it possible those studies were referencing a form of test that runs sky high day and night? i suppose we would all know by now if the exogenous test from your average otc 4-dhea resulted in zero shutdown, but then again it's hard to know how people dose it and if they were only dosing in the AM

Not “sky high” - constantly LOW at 25mg/wk taken in one shot. But yes they would have been using cypionate or enanthate esters in a TRT scenario, which have around a 1 week half-life depending on oil used, depot site, size of depot, and especially individual drug metabolism. You’d have about one day of good test, the second would be alright, and then you would be low for the next 5 days.

Estrogen is also suppressive. So you can take Testosterone Suspension, as an example, with no ester and suspended in water, for a while before becoming suppressed. But the faster the ester (or especially without one) of testosterone, the harder it aromatizes. So test suspension will still shut you down eventually taken routinely because estrogen will begin piling up.

So you see how even something taken each morning, with only a few hour half-life, will still shut you down taken regularly. Drug-tested athletes who take this out of season to cheat still don’t take it daily for too long. Not a year at a time.

also, what's the theoretical consensus on here that if someone were to take andriol to say bump from 550 to 900 or something for a year straight as theyre suggesting? are we talking shrivelled nuts and the possibility of not being able to get back to the 550 after the fact even if following with pct?

Shriveled nuts are very individual. Many guys can get significant shrinkage when their exogenous test is shut down, while others like myself don’t see a big reduction from what they were pre-blast & cruise. No way of guessing if you would get that side or not but odds are good.

But yes suppression is suppression and it’s a possibility you’d recover poorly. And if you have been suppressed even a few months, it’s possible you will not be able to recover to the original total t levels you were seeing. Being on for a year is even more likely you may have trouble restarting.

 

[thescience]

well Gentlement, that settles it. as cool as it would be to have workouts that arent hell and a crazy libido, i wont be horsing around with this jive

 

[thescience]

Estrogen is also suppressive. So you can take Testosterone Suspension, as an example, with no ester and suspended in water, for a while before becoming suppressed. But the faster the ester (or especially without one) of testosterone, the harder it aromatizes. So test suspension will still shut you down eventually taken routinely because estrogen will begin piling up.

So you see how even something taken each morning, with only a few hour half-life, will still shut you down taken regularly. Drug-tested athletes who take this out of season to cheat still don’t take it daily for too long. Not a year at a time.

could you eleborate on this more? primal medical is claiming no estrogen elevation and no estrogen blockers are necessary. kyzatrex is stating gyno is possible. is it possible the estrogen conversion isnt relevant with the once daily dose and keeping it under 1200?

 

[Hyde]

could you eleborate on this more? primal medical is claiming no estrogen elevation and no estrogen blockers are necessary. kyzatrex is stating gyno is possible. is it possible the estrogen conversion isnt relevant with the once daily dose and keeping it under 1200?

You really need to read a lot more on testosterone supplementation before considering pulling this trigger.

People aromatize differently. They respond to everything differently. Gyno is possible via multiple pathways, but in the context of testosterone gyno strictly comes from an excess/imbalance in the ratio of estrogen to androgen. And that balance isn’t number based; it’s individual. Some guys can’t really get gyno on grams of testosterone. Many can get it at 150mg/wk without an AI. It’s possible and individual.

Think for yourself. If the manufacturer says it’s possible, and one clinic who wants your money says it’s not, who do you think is lying? If you read more about TRT, you will understand the clinic by the nature of testosterone has to be lying.

 

[thescience]

You really need to read a lot more on testosterone supplementation before considering pulling this trigger.

People aromatize differently. They respond to everything differently. Gyno is possible via multiple pathways, but in the context of testosterone gyno strictly comes from an excess/imbalance in the ratio of estrogen to androgen. And that balance isn’t number based; it’s individual. Some guys can’t really get gyno on grams of testosterone. Many can get it at 150mg/wk without an AI. It’s possible and individual.

Think for yourself. If the manufacturer says it’s possible, and one clinic who wants your money says it’s not, who do you think is lying? If you read more about TRT, you will understand the clinic by the nature of testosterone has to be lying.

thanks

 

[Hyde]

thanks

That probably came off harshly, but it wasn’t intended to be - it’s blunt. Replacing endogenous hormones can have very significant or longterm impacts in a lot of ways, so it should be an educated move. Most people are not intelligent or patient enough to spend time learning independently before that move, but you most certainly are. Don’t rush.

It still requires little teeny insulin syringes a few days per week, but I would look into HCG monotherapy first if I wanted to generate high normal test levels but ensure testicular size, fertility, function all remain if I thought I could possibly decide to come off therapy in a year+.

Diabetic people all over the world, more and more every day, take multiple little baby shots of insulin daily to stay alive. If they can do it 3x a day, I promise you can handle it 3x a week. A 30g slinpin is painless.

 

[Danes]

i spoke to a guy at primal health to understand the claims theyre making. apparently, theyre saying that the oral testosteron undecanoate form taken with a fat containing meal is absorbed into the lymphatic system and thus does not shrink balls, may make the balls bigger, does not cause fertility issues, is not increasing SGBH, and doesnt need anti estrogens, doesnt cause polycythemia, and can be discontinued without being worse off than when you started with the target range for that clinic being 900-1200. theyre using kyaztrex. kyaztrex is not making those claims and other clinics offering it arent either. these guys are claiming the fda clearance for these claims is pending i wonder if hi tech is just assuming all is the same with their precursor due to it being decanoate. the guy i spoke to didnt seem to know a whole lot about the dosing timing touted on the website and felt that wasnt relevant to all the things theyre claiming make that form unique

Tell the guy at Primal Health, Im interested in more of those fairy tales I will definitely pay for them

 

[thescience]

That probably came off harshly, but it wasn’t intended to be - it’s blunt. Replacing endogenous hormones can have very significant or longterm impacts in a lot of ways, so it should be an educated move. Most people are not intelligent or patient enough to spend time learning independently before that move, but you most certainly are. Don’t rush.

It still requires little teeny insulin syringes a few days per week, but I would look into HCG monotherapy first if I wanted to generate high normal test levels but ensure testicular size, fertility, function all remain if I thought I could possibly decide to come off therapy in a year+.

Diabetic people all over the world, more and more every day, take multiple little baby shots of insulin daily to stay alive. If they can do it 3x a day, I promise you can handle it 3x a week. A 30g slinpin is painless.

no yeah ill take a response in whatever form it comes in. good info. it's great to be able to bounce ideas off of people who have years behind them interfacing with compounds. HCG sounded great, but im hearing that you could suppress lutenizing hormone with it and could even become desensitized to it. not yet sure if a test booster would bring me back from that

 

[Hyde]

no yeah ill take a response in whatever form it comes in. good info. it's great to be able to bounce ideas off of people who have years behind them interfacing with compounds. HCG sounded great, but im hearing that you could suppress lutenizing hormone with it and could even become desensitized to it. not yet sure if a test booster would bring me back from that

Yes, LH will fully suppress - the brain is still shut down. But the HCG is acting as an artificial source of that, so the testes never stop working to keep producing test & sperm (the way they normally do when you use exogenous testosterone). They never atrophy, and can actually increase testicular size some while using.

De-sensitizing is a problem for large doses of HCG being used by people coming off cycles who didn’t use any during the cycle and have very shrunk down testes. They let their testes atrophy heavily so they need very large doses of HCG to get them back in shape. Thousands of iu per day is common in that protocol. You would be doing between 250-500iu eod most likely.

So it’s still TRT in the sense you rely on an outside compound to maintain high normal test levels, but it actually uses your own testes to create it (provided they still function well) and make restarting potentially later only a matter of getting the brain going again with a SERM. The jewels will be ready to rock.

 

[thescience]

Yes, LH will fully suppress - the brain is still shut down. But the HCG is acting as an artificial source of that, so the testes never stop working to keep producing test & sperm (the way they normally do when you use exogenous testosterone). They never atrophy, and can actually increase testicular size some while using.

De-sensitizing is a problem for large doses of HCG being used by people coming off cycles who didn’t use any during the cycle and have very shrunk down testes. They let their testes atrophy heavily so they need very large doses of HCG to get them back in shape. Thousands of iu per day is common in that protocol. You would be doing between 250-500iu eod most likely.

So it’s still TRT in the sense you rely on an outside compound to maintain high normal test levels, but it actually uses your own testes to create it (provided they still function well) and make restarting potentially later only a matter of getting the brain going again with a SERM. The jewels will be ready to rock.

good info. have you every heard of someone doing hcg for a few years before getting off and attempting to jumpstart their lh with a serm?

 

[Hyde]

good info. have you every heard of someone doing hcg for a few years before getting off and attempting to jumpstart their lh with a serm?

No.

It’s not desirable to undertake HRT without the intention being a lifetime commitment. People do come off for various reasons successfully sometimes, but shutting yourself down is NEVER ideal for optimizing natural production.

Enclomiphene would be the ideal way to try to raise endogenous test levels with an outside chemical without suppressing yourself, but test levels will probably come back down over time after cessation and you won’t get the same impact to feel as HRT can give. But it could be a good middle ground to explore if you’re very on the fence about pursuing replacement.

 

[thescience]

Invalid Link Removed

i didnt confirm the bit about trt having "easy reversibility" in the study referenced in their article:

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Hyde]

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i didnt confirm the bit about trt having "easy reversibility" in the study referenced in their article:

Invalid Link Removed

Without reading either link, I’d say that’s probably because there’s absolutely no guarantee.

Even one cycle can make someone permanently hypogonadal. It’s rare, but I’ve witnessed it first hand 14 years ago. Guy did 4 weeks of Superdrol otc and that was it, after 2 years or so had to get on TRT when nothing would bounce back.

What is not rare is to have some measurable decline from previous function after a several month cycle. Dropping 50, 100, even 300ng/dl over previous total t levels even after a full PCT has been completed and months passed.

 

[thescience]

Without reading either link, I’d say that’s probably because there’s absolutely no guarantee.

Even one cycle can make someone permanently hypogonadal. It’s rare, but I’ve witnessed it first hand 14 years ago. Guy did 4 weeks of Superdrol otc and that was it, after 2 years or so had to get on TRT when nothing would bounce back.

What is not rare is to have some measurable decline from previous function after a several month cycle. Dropping 50, 100, even 300ng/dl over previous total t levels even after a full PCT has been completed and months passed.

holy sh*t! Bro, I had no idea people going on cycles take permanent hits like that!

yeah the link from maximus is what theyre positing to back up their safety claims. theyre taking the same stance as primal medical and hi tech on oral undecanoate. it looks like maximus is using the term "easy reversibility" for the therapy as purely in regards to the restoration of sperm production. they reference a study that concludes that the degree of excess steroid use that occurred influenced the severity of suppressed spermatogenesis.
some other highlights:
"azoospermia affected 93% to 98% percent of patients receiving monthly intramuscular testosterone injections over the course of six months of treatment"

 

[Hyde]

holy sh*t! Bro, I had no idea people going on cycles take permanent hits like that!

yeah the link from maximus is what theyre positing to back up their safety claims. theyre taking the same stance as primal medical and hi tech on oral undecanoate. it looks like maximus is using the term "easy reversibility" for the therapy as purely in regards to the restoration of sperm production. they reference a study that concludes that the degree of excess steroid use that occurred influenced the severity of suppressed spermatogenesis.
some other highlights:
"azoospermia affected 93% to 98% percent of patients receiving monthly intramuscular testosterone injections over the course of six months of treatment"

Azoospermia is radically independent. I have personally known 2 different guys in real life who have knocked up girlfriends on cycle because they thought “cycling makes you infertile”, and there are multiple Mr. Olympia competitors who never come off that have conceived successfully during their competitive years. Justin Harris has a fertility protocol for his bodybuilders that’s essentially several grams of testosterone solo or with some Proviron. The enormous levels of testosterone seem to end up stimulating the testes to some degree is the theory, but in any case he’s conceived that way and had clients who have.

So the point is while it may affect most guys on, will lower sperm count and/or motility, that doesn’t mean you will be infertile necessarily and it can also restore faster for some than others. Some guys can lose it forever allegedly though.

 

[thescience]

Azoospermia is radically independent. I have personally known 2 different guys in real life who have knocked up girlfriends on cycle because they thought “cycling makes you infertile”, and there are multiple Mr. Olympia competitors who never come off that have conceived successfully during their competitive years. Justin Harris has a fertility protocol for his bodybuilders that’s essentially several grams of testosterone solo or with some Proviron. The enormous levels of testosterone seem to end up stimulating the testes to some degree is the theory, but in any case he’s conceived that way and had clients who have.

So the point is while it may affect most guys on, will lower sperm count and/or motility, that doesn’t mean you will be infertile necessarily and it can also restore faster for some than others. Some guys can lose it forever allegedly though.

that is WILD. it really does sound like anything can happen. you think hi tech would at least be suggesting year round usage exclusively for people who have been touched by trt. i wonder if most people are happy with trt. the nih review a few years ago had only 25% of people going for a refil of their prescription. the maximus site has horror stories of meds never arriving or late by weeks

 

[Hyde]

that is WILD. it really does sound like anything can happen. you think hi tech would at least be suggesting year round usage exclusively for people who have been touched by trt. i wonder if most people are happy with trt. the nih review a few years ago had only 25% of people going for a refil of their prescription. the maximus site has horror stories of meds never arriving or late by weeks

It’s a business; they are profit-driven.

I wouldn’t necessarily worry about how many people are satisfied with TRT; I’d worry about how many active, lifting individuals that as a cohort more accurately resemble you stay on TRT.

Someone who keeps a training log with many years of lifting consistently that is invested in their body is pretty different from an obese man with terrible sleep & diet who doesn’t even exercise. Both may be prescribed TRT, but the former really has an interest while the latter is just trying a bandaid.

But a caveat: TRT should be for quality of life concerns, not performance. If you want steroid-like results, you will need to use steroids at steroid doses. The guys who dominate on 1cc of test are outliers that either hyper respond or, more frequently, were already destined for physical greatness. Phil Pfister allegedly won World’s Strongest Man on just 500 test/wk, some Dbol, and eating a pack of Oreos a day. You can’t inject being 6’6” & built like you have giant’s blood. Chris Bumstead & Ronnie Coleman looked totally insane in high school, natural.

 

[thescience]

"Andriol® does not need to be “cycled” and can be taken year round for the majority of all men"- its a bizarre quote; why the majority of all men instead of "majority of men?" i wonder if the author is someone with English as a second language who doesnt know what claims he's making

 

[N2ofusion]

"Andriol® does not need to be “cycled” and can be taken year round for the majority of all men"- its a bizarre quote; why the majority of all men instead of "majority of men?" i wonder if the author is someone with English as a second language who doesnt know what claims he's making

But do they really mean that it should be ran for life? What really happens when you stop after a year?

 

[thescience]

But do they really mean that it should be ran for life? What really happens when you stop after a year?

that's what we've been discussing. there are some heavyweights on this thread who see some red flags with the dosing suggestions

 

[Hyde]

that's what we've been discussing. there are some heavyweights on this thread who see some red flags with the dosing suggestions

I just wanted to mention that this morning I was listening to a podcast with Dave Crosland who mentioned the doses used of HCG for TRT do blow out the Leydig cells. He mentioned 250-500iu a few times per week like guys do in HRT plans can probably be used for a VERY long time, but the doses he’s seeing prescribed for HRT are more like 1,500iu 3x a week, and that will definitely desensitize them without breaks until they eventually get to a point of no return where the patient would eventually have to switch to true testosterone replacement therapy.

Dave was a 400lb bodybuilder at one time who owns a bloodwork company now in the UK and does bloods for thousands of lifters there, so he sees more panels than most.