Get ready for socialism!

AM07

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Obama has clinched the Democratic nomination. Get ready to give even more of your hard-earned money to the government to fund those social programs that work so well!
 
Nightwanderer

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When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist. - Dom Helder Camara
 
AE14

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Obama has clinched the Democratic nomination. Get ready to give even more of your hard-earned money to the government to fund those social programs that work so well!
Wow, a bit extreme no? Kinda funny coming out of the Bush administration where our money went to a war that has worked out so well :run:
 
TheCrownedOne

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Obama has clinched the Democratic nomination. Get ready to give even more of your hard-earned money to the government to fund those social programs that work so well!
Word.
 
Usf97j4x4

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Wow, a bit extreme no? Kinda funny coming out of the Bush administration where our money went to a war that has worked out so well :run:
Actually it is working well now (although I agree the planning was terrible) but you didnt hear that NPR huh?

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

Norman Thomas, 1948
 
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Actually it is working well now (although I agree the planning was terrible) but you didnt hear that NPR huh?

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

Norman Thomas, 1948
Actually not a dem here, but nice assumption I guess.

Working well now? I guess foxnews is a great source of information
 
BodyWizard

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Actually it is working well now...
Yeah, we're well on our way to a permanent state of war - which is doing such wonders for the economy - and it's whittling away nicely at that darned inconvenient constitution, too. Thumbs-up all around, I guess....

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened."

Norman Thomas
Those who learn history from the John Birch Society are doomed to be very confused - and typically wrong.
 
Usf97j4x4

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Yeah, we're well on our way to a permanent state of war - which is doing such wonders for the economy - and it's whittling away nicely at that darned inconvenient constitution, too. Thumbs-up all around, I guess....


Those who learn history from the John Birch Society are doomed to be very confused - and typically wrong.
Read past the name of the quote and READ the quote. It is as true as can be. Iraq is now at its most stable point thus far, hence the talks of drawdowns.
 
Usf97j4x4

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Actually not a dem here, but nice assumption I guess.

Working well now? I guess foxnews is a great source of information
I'm not a republican. BTW, I don't watch fox, or TV for that matter.
 
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Spending has been out of control under the Bush admin, and I'm talking domestic spending. Going to be outright insane should Obama win. Most lib voter in the Senate. McCain is scary enough. Change indeed.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Actually not a dem here, but nice assumption I guess.

Working well now? I guess foxnews is a great source of information
Maybe you should actually read what General Petraeus says....and look at the actual numbers.


But that would ruin MSNBC's talking points....
 
Dwight Schrute

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Four legs baaaaad, two legs gooood.
Spending has been out of control under the Bush admin, and I'm talking domestic spending. Going to be outright insane should Obama win. Most lib voter in the Senate. McCain is scary enough. Change indeed.

Look at the Farm Bill. MORE subsidies for CORN ethanol (morons) in a record amount for a farm bill. You could feed an army with the ribs from that pork.
 
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Maybe you should actually read what General Petraeus says....and look at the actual numbers.


But that would ruin MSNBC's talking points....
Considering I dont spend any time with MSNBC, your argument is already flawed.

To objectively look at the war, lets look at the economy of it as well. Or would fox news not approve?
 

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Wow, a bit extreme no? Kinda funny coming out of the Bush administration where our money went to a war that has worked out so well :run:
Word, I agree with you, the war was a mistake from the beginning. But less than 5% of our GDP has gone to fund this illegal war.

The economy isn't so hot due to numerous reasons, not just the war. But Bush really has ****ed up the conservative name.

I don't like McCain or Obama.
 
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Who knows how this will turn out but I don't plan on it getting better before it gets worse.
 
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Word, I agree with you, the war was a mistake from the beginning. But less than 5% of our GDP has gone to fund this illegal war.

The economy isn't so hot due to numerous reasons, not just the war. But Bush really has ****ed up the conservative name.

I don't like McCain or Obama.
agreed 100%
 
Dwight Schrute

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Considering I dont spend any time with MSNBC, your argument is already flawed.

To objectively look at the war, lets look at the economy of it as well. Or would fox news not approve?


I could care less if you think my argument is flawed or not...and yeah...I'm sure you never watch it. :rolleyes: You are the one that started talking about credibility when it comes to news organizations without looking a the actual facts.

If you want to talk about the economy of it all, go right ahead because I will then show you just how completely unrelated they are and where exactly that money we are spending would have gone. Here is a hint..it certainly isn't you and it certainly wouldn't be in infrastructure.

Its funny you want to bring up the economy when in 2003-2005 when the war was at its worst, we show 3-5% GDP growth. It was booming. What our government spends means jack **** on the health of our economy. The housing bust that is basically bringing us down has jack **** to do with the war. It has to do with regulations back in the 90's. The price of oil has the same baked in price it did back in the 90's when guess what...their was instability in the middle east. Its called China, India and the rest of Asia coming out of the 5th century.

The biggest increase in oil was in the last 2 years. Guess who ran Congress then. Democrats. Is it their fault? No...its called the free market and they have jack **** to do with any of it unless they actually want to regulate and price control.


So please, talk about the economy of it...
 
Usf97j4x4

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Word, I agree with you, the war was a mistake from the beginning. But less than 5% of our GDP has gone to fund this illegal war.

The economy isn't so hot due to numerous reasons, not just the war. But Bush really has ****ed up the conservative name.

I don't like McCain or Obama.
I also concur, however... how do you consider it illegal?


Also do you notice people tend to always point out fox news in some sly remark to point out the right leaning stance of many of the shows/hosts etc. I always find this amazing considering almost every other network is leans way to the left.
 
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I could care less if you think my argument is flawed or not...and yeah...I'm sure you never watch it. :rolleyes: You are the one that started talking about credibility when it comes to news organizations without looking a the actual facts.

If you want to talk about the economy of it all, go right ahead because I will then show you just how completely unrelated they are and where exactly that money we are spending would have gone. Here is a hint..it certainly isn't you and it certainly wouldn't be in infrastructure.

Its funny you want to bring up the economy when in 2003-2005 when the war was at its worst, we show 3-5% GDP growth. It was booming. What our government spends means jack **** on the health of our economy. The housing bust that is basically bringing us down has jack **** to do with the war. It has to do with regulations back in the 90's. The price of oil has the same baked in price it did back in the 90's when guess what...their was instability in the middle east. Its called China, India and the rest of Asia coming out of the 5th century.

The biggest increase in oil was in the last 2 years. Guess who ran Congress then. Democrats. Is it their fault? No...its called the free market and they have jack **** to do with any of it unless they actually want to regulate and price control.


So please, talk about the economy of it...
I will say one name Chuck Hagel. Go see his powerpoint about the expenses of the war.
 
Nabisco

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The war isn't illegal. It was sanctioned both by your President and your Congress. Therefore in every form of American law, it's legal.

Saying that it's illegal is completely untrue, but feel free to continue to spread untruths.
 
Usf97j4x4

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The war isn't illegal. It was sanctioned both by your President and your Congress. Therefore in every form of American law, it's legal.

Saying that it's illegal is completely untrue, but feel free to continue to spread untruths.
I had someone tell me that the war was illegal once because the UN didnt authorize it. lol

The good ol UN, probably the most corrupt organization out there. I'd love if we pulled out of it.
 
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we will need the right leadership to get out of the war, but you can forget about leaving the un, we need it to look good especially when we dont abide by it :)
 
Dadof2

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This election truly stinks. You can either go with a left wing candidate who wants to continue a war that we shouldn't be in, or a more extreme left wing candidate who would be more at home in a room full of communist than a room full of libertarians.

The two party system has to go. Either we ditch it or kiss our freedom goodbye.
 
Dwight Schrute

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I will say one name Chuck Hagel. Go see his powerpoint about the expenses of the war.

I don't' need a politician to tell me about economics. If our Senators knew anything about economics, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Stop listening to politicians talking points and figure it out for yourself. You'll find the truth somewhere in between and pretty much boring when it comes to politics.

Chuck Hagel, Congress and your President don't make monetary policy but they sure could sell you the idea that they do.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Also do you notice people tend to always point out fox news in some sly remark to point out the right leaning stance of many of the shows/hosts etc. I always find this amazing considering almost every other network is leans way to the left.


You think? You mean to tell me they haven't been pushing the liberal candidate? No way....they would NEVER do that! :rolleyes: :lol:
 
Hard Knox

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Republicans are NOT good for the economy EVER! Anyone who argues this statement doesn't understand what the party actually stands for!!!! So vote Democrat or watch the economy get worse because McCain feels that everything is fine and the economy will take care of itself, this Lazze Faire attitude is not what this country needs after eight years of abuse by the Republican party. (NAFTA, Big Oil, and Corporate interests) have corrupted our politicians (majority of whom are Republican). I am normally independent on most issues because I am in the middle on most issues, but the most important issue right now is the economy so VOTE Democrat because to vote independent is a waste of a vote.
 
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Republicans are NOT good for the economy EVER! Anyone who argues this statement doesn't understand what the party actually stands for!!!! So vote Democrat or watch the economy get worse because McCain feels that everything is fine and the economy will take care of itself, this Lazze Faire attitude is not what this country needs after eight years of abuse by the Republican party. (NAFTA, Big Oil, and Corporate interests) have corrupted our politicians (majority of whom are Republican). I am normally independent on most issues because I am in the middle on most issues, but the most important issue right now is the economy so VOTE Democrat because to vote independent is a waste of a vote.
Everyone listen to blanket statement man!!!
 
Hard Knox

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Everyone listen to blanket statement man!!!

Hey man its all true, and I didn't just figure this out during the last few months of campaigning. Many economics classes on the transcript so I do know a thing or two about the subject. Not trying to be cocky but that "blanket statement" is unfortunately a correct summary of the current situation.
 
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I agree with the Soup Nazi.
 

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I hate both candidates, personally I was pulling for Romney. I think with his experience he would be the best qualified to improve the economy, This is after all why Massachuesetts elected him Governor, a true conservative elected gov in the most liberal of liberal places? They saw what he did with Utah with his economic changes and how he pulled off teh olympics. Romney knows what he is doing. We have an inexperienced, dangerous socialist and a frail republican that shows no similarities to a true conservative, as he claims to be, this is truly a sad election.
 

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The war isn't illegal. It was sanctioned both by your President and your Congress. Therefore in every form of American law, it's legal.

Saying that it's illegal is completely untrue, but feel free to continue to spread untruths.
I know it was completely legal, but I just felt like throwing that word in there because it's a lost cause for a war. I don't think the majority of people give a **** whether the ME is stable at all. I sure as hell don't. IMO, let them kill themselves off and fight to the death, how it's always been in that shithole called the Middle East.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Republicans are NOT good for the economy EVER! Anyone who argues this statement doesn't understand what the party actually stands for!!!! So vote Democrat or watch the economy get worse because McCain feels that everything is fine and the economy will take care of itself, this Lazze Faire attitude is not what this country needs after eight years of abuse by the Republican party. (NAFTA, Big Oil, and Corporate interests) have corrupted our politicians (majority of whom are Republican). I am normally independent on most issues because I am in the middle on most issues, but the most important issue right now is the economy so VOTE Democrat because to vote independent is a waste of a vote.

You couldn't be more wrong.

1. NAFTA was the Clintons.

2. Big Oil? That's been around for 80 years under both parties. Tell me what the Democrats have done to stop them. Nothing. We've had the biggest increase in oil and gas in the last 2 years. Guess who's controlled Congress? Democrats.

3. Corporate Interest? We have the second highest tax corporate rate IN THE WORLD.

Please tell the University economics professor to stop teaching based on ideology and more on facts because in reality a Republican or Democratic administration has almost no say on how the actual economy runs.

Monetary policy is set by the fed which remains relatively intact no mater who is in office. Greenspan set policy for Reagan, Bush AND Clinton.

The global market doesnt run based off our 4 year elections.
 
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I don't' need a politician to tell me about economics. If our Senators knew anything about economics, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Stop listening to politicians talking points and figure it out for yourself. You'll find the truth somewhere in between and pretty much boring when it comes to politics.

Chuck Hagel, Congress and your President don't make monetary policy but they sure could sell you the idea that they do.
trust me, I am not saying anything about economic policy whatsoever, I was just addressing to you what Hagel said about the costs of war <this one specifically>
 
Dwight Schrute

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trust me, I am not saying anything about economic policy whatsoever, I was just addressing to you what Hagel said about the costs of war <this one specifically>
That's fine. Its makes for great political theatre to throw around how much money is spent when in reality the everyday public would never see a penny of it anyway.

They do the same with deficits.....did peoples lives change dramatically from 1991-2001 where the deficits fluctuated wildy? No. The big talk back then was balancing the budget because future generations will have to pay. Sound familiar? Did it really effect people actual lives? No.

They do the same with oil companies...the big bad oil companies making record profits without mentioning their margins are down. They make record profits because Americans want to have SUV's...but you can't tell them that its their fault. The American public doesn't want to take responsibility when they have the big evil government to blame.

Its the same old story...you want to get elected? Pitch the rich against the poor. Play on the emotions of what you don't have vs those that have it.

In the end will your lives be that much better with Obama or McCain? No.
 
TheCrownedOne

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You couldn't be more wrong.

1. NAFTA was the Clintons.

2. Big Oil? That's been around for 80 years under both parties. Tell me what the Democrats have done to stop them. Nothing. We've had the biggest increase in oil and gas in the last 2 years. Guess who's controlled Congress? Democrats.

3. Corporate Interest? We have the second highest tax corporate rate IN THE WORLD.

Please tell the University economics professor to stop teaching based on ideology and more on facts because in reality a Republican or Democratic administration has almost no say on how the actual economy runs.

Monetary policy is set by the fed which remains relatively intact no mater who is in office. Greenspan set policy for Reagan, Bush AND Clinton.

The global market doesnt run based off our 4 year elections.
Word. And 'word' to your next post, also. Well said.
 
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In the end will your lives be that much better with Obama or McCain? No.
I could not agree more here. I think neither of the candidates are worth a cent in the big picture, nor did I think many out there were that good. They are all so tied into their special interests
 
RobInKuwait

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Please tell the University economics professor to stop teaching based on ideology and more on facts because in reality a Republican or Democratic administration has almost no say on how the actual economy runs.
I have agreed with everything you've said so far, but wouldn't democrats raising taxes negatively impact how the economy runs?
 
Dwight Schrute

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I have agreed with everything you've said so far, but wouldn't democrats raising taxes negatively impact how the economy runs?
Not really. Clinton had one of the largest tax increases in history and we we're fine. You can easily mask numbers by taxing then spending. As long as spending it kept up at the same rate, you bascually offset the lose in personal consumption.

..but then you ask the question...do you want to spend the money..or do you want your government too?
 
Usf97j4x4

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Not really. Clinton had one of the largest tax increases in history and we we're fine. You can easily mask numbers by taxing then spending. As long as spending it kept up at the same rate, you bascually offset the lose in personal consumption.

..but then you ask the question...do you want to spend the money..or do you want your government too?
I disagree with you that it wont effect us ... the increases clinton put in effect pale in comparison to what Obama has hinted at in his campaign speeches. Also, his proposed increase in capital gains was something like 6-8% higher than clinton's highest IIRC. Obama is also playin with different caps/brackets instead of raising certain tax rates - this way to the layman its not a tax "increase" but they are essentially bracketed differently, thus paying a higher tax rate. I wish I had the knowledge on this to be more specific.

I for one am going to look into overseas accounts if ish goes down.
 
Usf97j4x4

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You couldn't be more wrong.

1. NAFTA was the Clintons.

2. Big Oil? That's been around for 80 years under both parties. Tell me what the Democrats have done to stop them. Nothing. We've had the biggest increase in oil and gas in the last 2 years. Guess who's controlled Congress? Democrats.

3. Corporate Interest? We have the second highest tax corporate rate IN THE WORLD.

Please tell the University economics professor to stop teaching based on ideology and more on facts because in reality a Republican or Democratic administration has almost no say on how the actual economy runs.

Monetary policy is set by the fed which remains relatively intact no mater who is in office. Greenspan set policy for Reagan, Bush AND Clinton.

The global market doesnt run based off our 4 year elections.
I agree completely. The bush-did-it mentality strikes again. How can anyone say a conservative policy is bad for the economy?

I wanted to expand on Point 3 you made - I fear if Obama is put in office he'll increase the corporate taxes to the point that larger, more fluid firms look to other countries (india et al) to move their businesses, or at least portions of them (fewer jobs for americans). Another negative repercussion of a blanket corporate tax increase would be that it would act as a deterrent for small business start ups, getting us more and more away from our capitalist roots. Some very good incentives would have to be in place and I don't see that happening. I see Obama deeming these increases in taxes necessary to support his various social programs (i.e. the free college plans), many of which are directed at "less fortunate" groups. Your thoughts?

Wow, god save us.
 
Dwight Schrute

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I disagree with you that it wont effect us ... the increases clinton put in effect pale in comparison to what Obama has hinted at in his campaign speeches. Also, his proposed increase in capital gains was something like 6-8% higher than clinton's highest IIRC. Obama is also playin with different caps/brackets instead of raising certain tax rates - this way to the layman its not a tax "increase" but they are essentially bracketed differently, thus paying a higher tax rate. I wish I had the knowledge on this to be more specific.

I for one am going to look into overseas accounts if ish goes down.

I've read some of his numbers. They are not THAT bad. Hillary's numbers were actually much worse. Just as McCains words are misrepresented, I've seen many times where Obamas are as well. The whole playing on fears works both ways.... :)

Believe me, if his numbers were that bad, I would say so. I am a small business owner so I know exactly how it will effect me. I am also a trader/investor as well.

Have to go..I'll comment on the other stuff later especially the corporate tax rates...
 

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Obama is just another candidate that tells people to blame everyone else for their problems without looking at the root of the problem, YOURSELF!
 
RobInKuwait

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Obama is just another candidate that tells people to blame everyone else for their problems without looking at the root of the problem, YOURSELF!
Agreed.
 
Hard Knox

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You couldn't be more wrong.

1. NAFTA was the Clintons.

2. Big Oil? That's been around for 80 years under both parties. Tell me what the Democrats have done to stop them. Nothing. We've had the biggest increase in oil and gas in the last 2 years. Guess who's controlled Congress? Democrats.

3. Corporate Interest? We have the second highest tax corporate rate IN THE WORLD.

Please tell the University economics professor to stop teaching based on ideology and more on facts because in reality a Republican or Democratic administration has almost no say on how the actual economy runs.

Monetary policy is set by the fed which remains relatively intact no mater who is in office. Greenspan set policy for Reagan, Bush AND Clinton.

The global market doesnt run based off our 4 year elections.

If you knew half as much as you thought about these issues you would be on track for an article in the Enquirer.

1. NAFTA was signed by George Bush in the early 90's.
2. The Bush administration and Rupublican majority congress voted to give billions in tax cuts to the already wealthy oil companies, not to mention the fact that Bush and family have a vast amount of interest in Petroleum. The higher the price the more they make because there % stays the same.

3. As far as Corporate interests go the tax means very little compared to the fact that when large corporations get what they want in the form of policy it is always the inverse of what is good for the middle-class (which is the base of our economy). In the past eight years the republican party has neutered if not killed the majority of Unions in this country and continued to allow outsourcing which has driven wages down and lowered the per capita income of this country.

The FED play a significant role in monetary policy, but monetary policy only consists of adjusting the Federal Funds Rate (Interest rate that the FED charges banks). When they lower rates to stimulate the economy often times the side effects are worse than the short term stimulation itself. The side effects being inflation and a decrease in the value of the dollar, which in turn leads to more foriegn ownership.

The bottom line is that an economy only thrives if the middle class (working class) is thriving, and the republican policy of supporting Big Business and the trickle down theory is not even relatively efficient.
 
RobInKuwait

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If you knew half as much as you thought about these issues you would be on track for an article in the Enquirer.

1. NAFTA was signed by George Bush in the early 90's.
2. The Bush administration and Rupublican majority congress voted to give billions in tax cuts to the already wealthy oil companies, not to mention the fact that Bush and family have a vast amount of interest in Petroleum. The higher the price the more they make because there % stays the same.

3. As far as Corporate interests go the tax means very little compared to the fact that when large corporations get what they want in the form of policy it is always the inverse of what is good for the middle-class (which is the base of our economy). In the past eight years the republican party has neutered if not killed the majority of Unions in this country and continued to allow outsourcing which has driven wages down and lowered the per capita income of this country.

The FED play a significant role in monetary policy, but monetary policy only consists of adjusting the Federal Funds Rate (Interest rate that the FED charges banks). When they lower rates to stimulate the economy often times the side effects are worse than the short term stimulation itself. The side effects being inflation and a decrease in the value of the dollar, which in turn leads to more foriegn ownership.

The bottom line is that an economy only thrives if the middle class (working class) is thriving, and the republican policy of supporting Big Business and the trickle down theory is not even relatively efficient.

I can never follow liberal logic (contradiction?). Unions and the high salaries and benefits packages for manual labor drove corporations to outsource. Why? Because its cheaper.

You said the government allowed outsourcing? Who is the government to tell me how to make a profit?

Why is trickle down not efficient? When did it fail?
 
Hard Knox

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I can never follow liberal logic (contradiction?). Unions and the high salaries and benefits packages for manual labor drove corporations to outsource. Why? Because its cheaper.

You said the government allowed outsourcing? Who is the government to tell me how to make a profit?

Why is trickle down not efficient? When did it fail?
You've got to be joking...right?
 
Hard Knox

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About what?
Just to set the record straight I am not a liberal, as I staighted previously I am somewhat in the middle on most issues but right now the economy needs major attention in the form of Democratic leadership. As far as the government and your profits, they used to in the form of an import tax (Tariff) which protects the working class of the domestic country. Whats so hard to understand about that?
 

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