Foxnew Says Stop Crying About Gas Prices?

Jmh80 says stop whining about gas prices. Go build yourself a Fluid Catalytic Cracker.
 
anabolicrhino said:
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..so, hows that "supply and demand" thing work again???
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Higher prices at the pump today are a matter of simple economics. U.S. refiners have the ability to churn out 17 million barrels of gasoline per day. Demand is around 22 million barrels per day. To make up the difference, we bring in gasoline from foreign refiners, which means that, at the margins, pump prices are set by import prices. Gasoline, like crude oil, is auctioned worldwide to the highest bidder, and with the dollar weak and overseas economic growth strong because of our fantastic appetite for iPods made in China and T-shirts made in Costa Rica, we have to pay up to keep our supply coming in. And that's all there is to it. With U.S. refinery capacity now at ridiculously low levels due in part to lack of investment in new plants amid harsh environmental rules. because of our environmental rules there has not been a refinery built in the US in the past 30 years and we are only able to access gas in 15% of the outer contentianal shelf. The supply is constrained by us, the American people. people dont want the trade offs of having lower gas. its that simple.
 
spunkles182 said:
Higher prices at the pump today are a matter of simple economics. U.S. refiners have the ability to churn out 17 million barrels of gasoline per day. Demand is around 22 million barrels per day. To make up the difference, we bring in gasoline from foreign refiners, which means that, at the margins, pump prices are set by import prices. Gasoline, like crude oil, is auctioned worldwide to the highest bidder, and with the dollar weak and overseas economic growth strong because of our fantastic appetite for iPods made in China and T-shirts made in Costa Rica, we have to pay up to keep our supply coming in. And that's all there is to it. With U.S. refinery capacity now at ridiculously low levels due in part to lack of investment in new plants amid harsh environmental rules. because of our environmental rules there has not been a refinery built in the US in the past 30 years and we are only able to access gas in 15% of the outer contentianal shelf. The supply is constrained by us, the American people. people dont want the trade offs of having lower gas. its that simple.
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Oh come on. Don't you know it's evil CEOs with magic powers like Skeletor to over ride markets that keep prices high? Sheesh, I thought that was common knowledge...
 
Spunkles - good response - reps.

But - you forgot to mention one of the big problems this spring has been maintenance that has extended into the summer driving season (most is completed in the fall and spring).

I attribute that to refiners running flat out since, basically, Katrina/Rita to meet the demand (and were told that by the government).
Equipment will foul up/fail if you don't maintain it. It's like your car.

The other portion of this is labor. Companies are having trouble finding guys to weld, fix equipment, and engineers to design fixes.
The labor pool since Katrina of folks with any knowledge of petrochemical plants has really shrunk. Companies have had real trouble staffing up for maintenance times. That has caused them to string further out in the driving season.
(Plus - time to build steel components has increased also - due to the squeeze on engineering design firms and steel availability.)

I do think refiners aren't totally without blame. The concept of "pay me now - pay me a lot later" is often lost when chasing profits (relative to proper maintenance intervals).
 
jmh80 said:
Spunkles - good response - reps.

But - you forgot to mention one of the big problems this spring has been maintenance that has extended into the summer driving season (most is completed in the fall and spring).

I attribute that to refiners running flat out since, basically, Katrina/Rita to meet the demand (and were told that by the government).
Equipment will foul up/fail if you don't maintain it. It's like your car.

The other portion of this is labor. Companies are having trouble finding guys to weld, fix equipment, and engineers to design fixes.
The labor pool since Katrina of folks with any knowledge of petrochemical plants has really shrunk. Companies have had real trouble staffing up for maintenance times. That has caused them to string further out in the driving season.
(Plus - time to build steel components has increased also - due to the squeeze on engineering design firms and steel availability.)

I do think refiners aren't totally without blame. The concept of "pay me now - pay me a lot later" is often lost when chasing profits (relative to proper maintenance intervals).
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well part of the maintenance is for the government mandated "summer blend" of gasoline. the oil refineries actually have to shut down temporarily to switch the whole refinery over to the new blend. summer blends can cost between 3 to 15 cents more to produce than winter blends and then add on the cost of switching over all of the gas stations in the country to the new blends as well.

oil companies make so much profits becuase they sell a heck of alot of units. even with the price rising the profit margin of oil compaines has stayed relatively the same of exon mobile is 10% and compare that with citibank 18%, 3M is 19%, and microsoft was 31%... I dont hear anyone complaining that citibank, 3m or microsoft are making too much profits.
 
spunkles182 said:
well part of the maintenance is for the government mandated "summer blend" of gasoline. the oil refineries actually have to shut down temporarily to switch the whole refinery over to the new blend. summer blends can cost between 3 to 15 cents more to produce than winter blends and then add on the cost of switching over all of the gas stations in the country to the new blends as well.

oil companies make so much profits becuase they sell a heck of alot of units. even with the price rising the profit margin of oil compaines has stayed relatively the same of exon mobile is 10% and compare that with citibank 18%, 3M is 19%, and microsoft was 31%... I dont hear anyone complaining that citibank, 3m or microsoft are making too much profits.
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You seem to have a bit of insight to how this system works.

Remember the Summer of 2006 when gas prices peaked around mid July, then slowly drifted downward toward the Fall ?

What economic factors cause this ?

Thanks!
 
If I recall correctly there was a mild autumn that year and then winter it all at once, so inventories were climbing for a while and then demand started to rise again.
 
spunkles182 said:
Higher prices at the pump today are a matter of simple economics. U.S. refiners have the ability to churn out 17 million barrels of gasoline per day. Demand is around 22 million barrels per day. To make up the difference, we bring in gasoline from foreign refiners, which means that, at the margins, pump prices are set by import prices. Gasoline, like crude oil, is auctioned worldwide to the highest bidder, and with the dollar weak and overseas economic growth strong because of our fantastic appetite for iPods made in China and T-shirts made in Costa Rica, we have to pay up to keep our supply coming in. And that's all there is to it. With U.S. refinery capacity now at ridiculously low levels due in part to lack of investment in new plants amid harsh environmental rules. because of our environmental rules there has not been a refinery built in the US in the past 30 years and we are only able to access gas in 15% of the outer contentianal shelf. The supply is constrained by us, the American people. people dont want the trade offs of having lower gas. its that simple.
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Bingo!!
 
anabolicrhino said:
You seem to have a bit of insight to how this system works.

Remember the Summer of 2006 when gas prices peaked around mid July, then slowly drifted downward toward the Fall ?

What economic factors cause this ?

Thanks!
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doesn't it always go up in the summer due to increased demand because of summer travel and such? that's the impression that i always had, could be wrong though
 
The current supply and demand situation is exacerbated by the fact that there appears to be little if any "price elasticity of demand" for gasoline in the current market. For many products, there is a price point at which consumers are no longer willing to purchase and demand falls triggering a corresponding fall in prices. Currently gasoline prices appear to be relatively inelastic. Consumers have not been willing to decrease their demand for gasoline in the face of rising prices, hence a continuing lack of suppy with little market correction in the form of decreased consumption. This market environment tends to keep prices at relatively high levels and supplies tight.

As spunkles182 mentioned, not only do we import oil to be refined here, we also are importing refined GASOLINE. Very inefficient and cost ineffective.

I would be interested in getting other's opinions on Ethanol as any sort of a viable alternative for the U.S. My personal opinion is that though it works great for Brazil, we here do not have the same readily available arable land for the clutivation of Corn for ethanol production. Currently, any corn used in the production of ethanol competes against the demand for corn as foodstuffs. I think it is a blind alley for us as any sort of a significant solution. In limited quantities similar to what exists now it is a pretty good deal for farmers financially. But corn prices for all consumers will be placed under significant upward pressure if demand increases significantly for fuel ethanol.

My 2 cents.
 
We are still very lucky compared to Europe on our gas prices. It is around $5/gallon over there.
 
Jumper said:
The current supply and demand situation is exacerbated by the fact that there appears to be little if any "price elasticity of demand" for gasoline in the current market. For many products, there is a price point at which consumers are no longer willing to purchase and demand falls triggering a corresponding fall in prices. Currently gasoline prices appear to be relatively inelastic. Consumers have not been willing to decrease their demand for gasoline in the face of rising prices, hence a continuing lack of suppy with little market correction in the form of decreased consumption. This market environment tends to keep prices at relatively high levels and supplies tight.
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All prices are elastic. For something as relied upon and essential as oil and gas have become, not to mention the subsidization that has kept prices low for quite some time, inelasticity does result. But there still is a price at which people will start responding. It's just likely very high at this point.

I would be interested in getting other's opinions on Ethanol as any sort of a viable alternative for the U.S. My personal opinion is that though it works great for Brazil, we here do not have the same readily available arable land for the clutivation of Corn for ethanol production. Currently, any corn used in the production of ethanol competes against the demand for corn as foodstuffs. I think it is a blind alley for us as any sort of a significant solution. In limited quantities similar to what exists now it is a pretty good deal for farmers financially. But corn prices for all consumers will be placed under significant upward pressure if demand increases significantly for fuel ethanol.

My 2 cents.
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We don't need the arable land, we just need the ethanol. Whether growing it elsewhere and transporting it is a viable future option I don't know, right now alternatives require oil for their creation and transport. My guess is oil/gas will slowly but surely be replaced at the consumer level with ethanol and other alternatives, with oil/gas being used for higher valued ends like transporting and creating the alternatives, large scale transportation of other goods. And, perhaps eventually, the alternatives will even replace oil/gas further up the structure of production.

The real interesting thing is it's likely we're looking at heavily subsidized economies of scale through the use of oil/gas. Which means once those dive on the consumer level production ramps down in many areas and becomes more localized than it is currently. That will definitely be an adjustment for some industries and for consumers.
 
spunkles182 said:
well part of the maintenance is for the government mandated "summer blend" of gasoline. the oil refineries actually have to shut down temporarily to switch the whole refinery over to the new blend. summer blends can cost between 3 to 15 cents more to produce than winter blends and then add on the cost of switching over all of the gas stations in the country to the new blends as well.

oil companies make so much profits becuase they sell a heck of alot of units. even with the price rising the profit margin of oil compaines has stayed relatively the same of exon mobile is 10% and compare that with citibank 18%, 3M is 19%, and microsoft was 31%... I dont hear anyone complaining that citibank, 3m or microsoft are making too much profits.
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Shhhh - I work for one of the biggest petrochemical complexes in the US.

As far as I know - you don't have to necessarily shut down the whole refinery to go to a lower RVP blend....
 
anabolicrhino said:
You seem to have a bit of insight to how this system works.

Remember the Summer of 2006 when gas prices peaked around mid July, then slowly drifted downward toward the Fall ?

What economic factors cause this ?

Thanks!
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Demand Rhino.

Joe Schmoe takes his family to wherever for the summer vacation (multiplied by a few million) - you get the drift.

Prices always rise in the summer due to demand and fall in the winter. The degree of the fall depends on how mild the winter is (as CDB said).
 
alright guys all of your arguments and responses are well supported but can anyone explain to me why gas prices DOUBLED in less than a year? along with oil company profits?
 
well sometimes ill smoke some angel dust and fly from place to place. and little pink ponies will come with me.
 
jomi822 said:
alright guys all of your arguments and responses are well supported but can anyone explain to me why gas prices DOUBLED in less than a year? along with oil company profits?
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Once more, it's called supply vs demand, and the price equilibrates the two.
 
jomi822 said:
so worldwide consumption of gas DOUBLED in one year? hence the price doubled?.....hence oil company profits doubled?
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oil company profits doubled??? :blink: just looking at exxon from year 2005 to year 2006 profits went up 9.4%. thats far from doubling.

exxons profits also went down 10% from qtr 4 2006 to qtr 1 2007. they had 1billion dollars less in profits during that time. this was from a warm winter and lower sales from lower demand, just like CDB said.

its easy information to get. just look at their income statement.
 
jmh80 said:
Demand Rhino.

Joe Schmoe takes his family to wherever for the summer vacation (multiplied by a few million) - you get the drift.

Prices always rise in the summer due to demand and fall in the winter. The degree of the fall depends on how mild the winter is (as CDB said).
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So, Joe Schmoe's two week family vacation expends more fuel than Joe schmoes daily, two way weekly commute?

If this is the cyclical event that happens every summer why not increase production ahead of demand to keep prices stable?

Its just smart business if the oil companies want to make to make a profit by the manipulation of the supply in order to create a rise in price, but why all the speculation ?
 
CDB said:
Once more, it's called supply vs demand, and the price equilibrates the two.
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Invalid Link Removed

This supply/ demand thing works in the vacuum of an economics class, but there is no real world equilibrium.

The market sets the price as to what ever it can bear.

The only equilibrium is the Invalid Link Removed ...which is also know as the "f*ck you buddy" economic theory.

The only equilibrium is the balance between the highest price per unit that can be charged for the maximum amount units sold. The point at which the any higher price deters the sale of any more units per market becomes the market price.

...as Tony "scarface" Montana used to say "Never underestimate the other guys greed" !
 
jomi822 said:
so worldwide consumption of gas DOUBLED in one year? hence the price doubled?.....hence oil company profits doubled?
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What makes you think the relationship is linear? Demand could go up slightly and price can triple. There is no mathetmatical relationship between the two, it's a subjective valuation on both the seller's and buyer's part. Generally the price adjusts so markets clear. Prices can be sticky upward and downward as well depending on other factors. It's not as simple as twice demand equals twice the price.
 
anabolicrhino said:
Invalid Link Removed

This supply/ demand thing works in the vacuum of an economics class, but there is no real world equilibrium.

The market sets the price as to what ever it can bear.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's called equillibrating supply and demand so markets clear...

The only equilibrium is the Invalid Link Removed ...which is also know as the "f*ck you buddy" economic theory.
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Actually equillibrium is a theoretical state of no uncertainty called the evenly rotating economy, and it has nothing to do with prices 'equillibrating' supply and demand. Once more you're letting your basic knowledge of the matter lead you into areas you think you know but actually don't.

The only equilibrium is the balance between the highest price per unit that can be charged for the maximum amount units sold. The point at which the any higher price deters the sale of any more units per market becomes the market price.

...as Tony "scarface" Montana used to say "Never underestimate the other guys greed" !
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Congratulations, you just discovered marginal utility. However the sellers have margins too. Prices are formed through buyer and seller interaction, not solely on one side or the other.
 
anabolicrhino said:
So, Joe Schmoe's two week family vacation expends more fuel than Joe schmoes daily, two way weekly commute?

If this is the cyclical event that happens every summer why not increase production ahead of demand to keep prices stable?

Its just smart business if the oil companies want to make to make a profit by the manipulation of the supply in order to create a rise in price, but why all the speculation ?
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yes. for my 4 day vacation i am driving 600 miles round trip. and for my weekly commute i drive about 150 to 200 miles a week.

and we are already are over 100% production. we cant produce anymore and have to buy on the open market. re-read post #3.
 
Oil companies want to please there shareholders. If company XYZ makes $500m one year and $490 the next year their share price will drop. Prices go up to keep the profits up and the bubbly flowing at the annual shareholders meeting. And the governement likes the prices going up as their cut gets bigger and bigger.
 
Australian made said:
Oil companies want to please there shareholders. If company XYZ makes $500m one year and $490 the next year their share price will drop. Prices go up to keep the profits up and the bubbly flowing at the annual shareholders meeting. And the governement likes the prices going up as their cut gets bigger and bigger.
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A higher price does not equate to a higher profit. In fact depending on various factors such as demand elasticity it can lead to lower profits.
 
Jumper said:
The current supply and demand situation is exacerbated by the fact that there appears to be little if any "price elasticity of demand" for gasoline in the current market. For many products, there is a price point at which consumers are no longer willing to purchase and demand falls triggering a corresponding fall in prices. Currently gasoline prices appear to be relatively inelastic. Consumers have not been willing to decrease their demand for gasoline in the face of rising prices, hence a continuing lack of suppy with little market correction in the form of decreased consumption. This market environment tends to keep prices at relatively high levels and supplies tight.

As spunkles182 mentioned, not only do we import oil to be refined here, we also are importing refined GASOLINE. Very inefficient and cost ineffective.

I would be interested in getting other's opinions on Ethanol as any sort of a viable alternative for the U.S. My personal opinion is that though it works great for Brazil, we here do not have the same readily available arable land for the clutivation of Corn for ethanol production. Currently, any corn used in the production of ethanol competes against the demand for corn as foodstuffs. I think it is a blind alley for us as any sort of a significant solution. In limited quantities similar to what exists now it is a pretty good deal for farmers financially. But corn prices for all consumers will be placed under significant upward pressure if demand increases significantly for fuel ethanol.

My 2 cents.
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The use of corn to make ethanol is a viable, but entirely terrible idea for the economy and the country as a whole. My senior design project in college (Im a chemical engineer) was to develop a design for a corn to ethanol plant for a real company along with a few of my classmates. The organic conversion rate is not all that hot to begin with. So you produce a lot of waste in the process, although with more capital expenses you can recycle portions of it. Something a lot of people don't know is that a farmer cannot continually plant corn on the same plot of land year after year. Corn absorbs more nutrients than it returns to the soil, draining the soil of any substance. So farmers are forced to "rotate" fields, planting vegetation that is high in nutrients that they can't sell. Instead they till that field with the new, high nutrient plants on it to re-fertilize the soil. All this craze for converting corn to ethanol is stupid. Its driving up the cost of corn (and all its by-products). Like feed for cattle, which in turn drives up the cost of milk and beef. Anyone notice that milk is $3+ a gallon now? However, since the government subsidizes the growth of corn for ethanol production it has taken a lot of farmers away from their normal crops and has them growing corn anywhere they can plant it for the financial reward. The end result is a sharp increase is a lot more consumer products and no lowering of gas prices. Congratulations US government. They strike again!
 
Nabisco said:
The use of corn to make ethanol is a viable, but entirely terrible idea for the economy and the country as a whole. My senior design project in college (Im a chemical engineer) was to develop a design for a corn to ethanol plant for a real company along with a few of my classmates. The organic conversion rate is not all that hot to begin with. So you produce a lot of waste in the process, although with more capital expenses you can recycle portions of it. Something a lot of people don't know is that a farmer cannot continually plant corn on the same plot of land year after year. Corn absorbs more nutrients than it returns to the soil, draining the soil of any substance. So farmers are forced to "rotate" fields, planting vegetation that is high in nutrients that they can't sell. Instead they till that field with the new, high nutrient plants on it to re-fertilize the soil. All this craze for converting corn to ethanol is stupid. Its driving up the cost of corn (and all its by-products). Like feed for cattle, which in turn drives up the cost of milk and beef. Anyone notice that milk is $3+ a gallon now? However, since the government subsidizes the growth of corn for ethanol production it has taken a lot of farmers away from their normal crops and has them growing corn anywhere they can plant it for the financial reward. The end result is a sharp increase is a lot more consumer products and no lowering of gas prices. Congratulations US government. They strike again!
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Ethanol crap is all about winning the Iowa primaries and getting money from the corn lobby.
 
spunkles182 said:
I agree. its also yet another example of why social planning does not work.
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Iowa has way too much power in US politics because of its primary. Hopefully with a bunch of states making their primaries earlier as well things might even out a little bit and take away some of the power from those Iowa special interests.

Really all states shoudl have their primaries on the very same day. It would prevent one state from gaining power over any other. Currently, the later states have virtually no say at all. If a candidate doesn't do well in the first couple primaries they usually drop out entirely which means by the end the only people left anyway are ones who sucked up to the corn farmers.

If for example, Michegan had that first big primary instead, you'd see politicians offering all kinds of tax breaks, and subsidies to car manufacturers. Likewise they'd be spun in such a way as to sound like some kind of thing to help the environment or help decrease some kind of cost of living factor when in reality all they would do is boost car manufacturers' revenues and #### the average Joe over.

This is how politics works.
 
Nabisco said:
The use of corn to make ethanol is a viable, but entirely terrible idea for the economy and the country as a whole. My senior design project in college (Im a chemical engineer) was to develop a design for a corn to ethanol plant for a real company along with a few of my classmates. The organic conversion rate is not all that hot to begin with. So you produce a lot of waste in the process, although with more capital expenses you can recycle portions of it. Something a lot of people don't know is that a farmer cannot continually plant corn on the same plot of land year after year. Corn absorbs more nutrients than it returns to the soil, draining the soil of any substance. So farmers are forced to "rotate" fields, planting vegetation that is high in nutrients that they can't sell. Instead they till that field with the new, high nutrient plants on it to re-fertilize the soil. All this craze for converting corn to ethanol is stupid. Its driving up the cost of corn (and all its by-products). Like feed for cattle, which in turn drives up the cost of milk and beef. Anyone notice that milk is $3+ a gallon now? However, since the government subsidizes the growth of corn for ethanol production it has taken a lot of farmers away from their normal crops and has them growing corn anywhere they can plant it for the financial reward. The end result is a sharp increase is a lot more consumer products and no lowering of gas prices. Congratulations US government. They strike again!
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We are on the same page. I concur.
 
Tiberius said:
If for example, Michegan had that first big primary instead, you'd see politicians offering all kinds of tax breaks, and subsidies to car manufacturers. Likewise they'd be spun in such a way as to sound like some kind of thing to help the environment or help decrease some kind of cost of living factor when in reality all they would do is boost car manufacturers' revenues and #### the average Joe over.
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they already do. look at obama...
"Mr. Obama would provide up to $3 billion to Detroit auto companies and their suppliers to retool factories to produce more fuel-efficient vehicles. If the companies invest in these vehicles, Mr. Obama also would offer the Detroit companies assistance in dealing with their burden of paying for current and retired workers’ health care expenses."

He also said" "The auto industry accounts for one out of every 10 jobs, the notion that we can just abandon U.S. automakers and that we won't suffer consequences throughout the economy is just nonsense." which also proves he is a moron.
 
Yeah, that's called equillibrating supply and demand so markets clear...
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Actually that's called conditioning and they teach it during the indoctrination process, so that you have a constructed system you can call the "equilibration" of supply and demand. Meanwhile the people with the real power in this world create the illusion of choice for the people who don't have any!



Actually equillibrium is a theoretical state of no uncertainty called the evenly rotating economy, and it has nothing to do with prices 'equillibrating' supply and demand. Once more you're letting your basic knowledge of the matter lead you into areas you think you know but actually don't.
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Please excuse my ignorance , but could you explain how equilibrium is not related to a process that you refer to as "equilibrating supply and demand" with respect to price.

What do you mean by a theoretical state with no uncertainty?

Did you mean to say "a certain state"?

Your choice of wording makes it soundly like, there is a "theory" that is "not" uncertain.

A theory cannot be certain by definition.

Once a theory becomes "certain" it is referred to as a fact !



Prices are formed through buyer and seller interaction, not solely on one side or the other.
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So prices are formed by buyer and seller interaction?

Thanks CDB,:rolleyes: with my new found knowledge, I can actually buy stuff !
 
Nabisco said:
The use of corn to make ethanol is a viable, but entirely terrible idea for the economy and the country as a whole. My senior design project in college (Im a chemical engineer) was to develop a design for a corn to ethanol plant for a real company along with a few of my classmates. The organic conversion rate is not all that hot to begin with. So you produce a lot of waste in the process, although with more capital expenses you can recycle portions of it. Something a lot of people don't know is that a farmer cannot continually plant corn on the same plot of land year after year. Corn absorbs more nutrients than it returns to the soil, draining the soil of any substance. So farmers are forced to "rotate" fields, planting vegetation that is high in nutrients that they can't sell. Instead they till that field with the new, high nutrient plants on it to re-fertilize the soil. All this craze for converting corn to ethanol is stupid. Its driving up the cost of corn (and all its by-products). Like feed for cattle, which in turn drives up the cost of milk and beef. Anyone notice that milk is $3+ a gallon now? However, since the government subsidizes the growth of corn for ethanol production it has taken a lot of farmers away from their normal crops and has them growing corn anywhere they can plant it for the financial reward. The end result is a sharp increase is a lot more consumer products and no lowering of gas prices. Congratulations US government. They strike again!
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:cheers: I bees a ChE also.


BTW - EtOH sucks as a motor gasoline fuel. It's driving UP the price on my whey protein, damn it!
 
anabolicrhino said:
nice catch !
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I love that movie so much.

"You know what a Hossa is Frank? That's a pig that don't fly too straight."


Anyway, about Obama and the automakers, that's a perfect example. Don't US auto makers have most of their factories in MEXICO? Most of the car factories in the US IIRC are from foreign manufacturers like Mitsubishi, Honda, and Toyota.

Plus giving extra money to car manufacturers to "fuel efficient technology" is both a meaningless phrase, completely unenforceable, and would occur anyway due to market pressure. They don't need extra money to compete, the Japanese do it just fine without subsidies and built way better cars. You give a car company extra money you know where it goes? It turns into a giant bonus for the top executives. Awesome. Real productive. And of course those bonuses ar ebeing paid for by the US tax payer. Awesome again.


You know though there is one thing I've learned. There isn't much point in trying to fight this. Which is why I've created a small section of my company to try to lobby congress to give MY company some subsidies and grants. If successful they have the potential to bring in a whole lotta revenue.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
 
anabolicrhino said:
Actually that's called conditioning and they teach it during the indoctrination process, so that you have a constructed system you can call the "equilibration" of supply and demand. Meanwhile the people with the real power in this world create the illusion of choice for the people who don't have any!
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This is borderline theosophic bs.

Please excuse my ignorance , but could you explain how equilibrium is not related to a process that you refer to as "equilibrating supply and demand" with respect to price.
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Equillibrium does not nor will it ever exist. It is a theoretical construct in which no uncertainty exists. As such no money exists. All surplus productivity is spent or saved/invested to come due and be converted perfectly when needed into a consumption good. It's used mainly as a mental tool to help people distinguish between interest/capital returns and profit, which doesn't actually exist under equillibrium conditions.

Price equlibration is just a name for the process by which prices either rise or fall so markets can clear. It's not a state of being, it's a continuous process of feedback from the various factors that affect prices to maximize effeciency on the part of production. Surpluses and shortages mean wasted resources within and without a specific process of production respectively. Those wastes don't benefit anyone.

What do you mean by a theoretical state with no uncertainty?
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I mean just that, a theoretical state in which all outcomes are known in advance. As stated above, it's a construct used to differentiate between the capitalist process of saving and investment which leads to interest/returns, and profits which can't exist without uncertainty.

Thanks CDB,:rolleyes: with my new found knowledge, I can actually buy stuff !
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Well apparently you think otherwise given your statement above implying there is no choice.
 
CDB said:
This is borderline theosophic bs.



Equillibrium does not nor will it ever exist. It is a theoretical construct in which no uncertainty exists. As such no money exists. All surplus productivity is spent or saved/invested to come due and be converted perfectly when needed into a consumption good. It's used mainly as a mental tool to help people distinguish between interest/capital returns and profit, which doesn't actually exist under equillibrium conditions.

Price equlibration is just a name for the process by which prices either rise or fall so markets can clear. It's not a state of being, it's a continuous process of feedback from the various factors that affect prices to maximize effeciency on the part of production. Surpluses and shortages mean wasted resources within and without a specific process of production respectively. Those wastes don't benefit anyone.



I mean just that, a theoretical state in which all outcomes are known in advance. As stated above, it's a construct used to differentiate between the capitalist process of saving and investment which leads to interest/returns, and profits which can't exist without uncertainty.



Well apparently you think otherwise given your statement above implying there is no choice.
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I don't mean to seem incredulous but your first paragraph admonishes me for being theosophic, but then you go on about how there is a "theoretical construct" that exists withing our economy, that is used to moderate the capitalist process!

You can't have it both ways!

Which do you truly believe is there a free economy or is there a "theoretical construct" which we are told is a "free" economy, as I suggested in my post?

I expect a certain amount of ambiguity when reading your posts , but this is a direct contradiction in terms!

Please, just a little clarity for the 4th of July !
 
Nabisco said:
The use of corn to make ethanol is a viable, but entirely terrible idea for the economy and the country as a whole. My senior design project in college (Im a chemical engineer) was to develop a design for a corn to ethanol plant for a real company along with a few of my classmates. The organic conversion rate is not all that hot to begin with. So you produce a lot of waste in the process, although with more capital expenses you can recycle portions of it. Something a lot of people don't know is that a farmer cannot continually plant corn on the same plot of land year after year. Corn absorbs more nutrients than it returns to the soil, draining the soil of any substance. So farmers are forced to "rotate" fields, planting vegetation that is high in nutrients that they can't sell. Instead they till that field with the new, high nutrient plants on it to re-fertilize the soil. All this craze for converting corn to ethanol is stupid. Its driving up the cost of corn (and all its by-products). Like feed for cattle, which in turn drives up the cost of milk and beef. Anyone notice that milk is $3+ a gallon now? However, since the government subsidizes the growth of corn for ethanol production it has taken a lot of farmers away from their normal crops and has them growing corn anywhere they can plant it for the financial reward. The end result is a sharp increase is a lot more consumer products and no lowering of gas prices. Congratulations US government. They strike again!
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what do you think about cellulosic ethanol?
 
spunkles182 said:
what do you think about cellulosic ethanol?
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ethanol is crap, plain and simple. It will never really work out. Between its corrosiveness to rubber and other commonly used materials as well as its cost of manufacture (particularly as populations continue to rise and open land becomes more and more valuable for food purposes).

We'd have a much better cleaner time building a significant amount more of nuclear power plants, and then moving to hydrogen fuel cell based vehicles. The nukes would provide enough electrical power through existing grids to set up small electrolysis plants so there isn't some crazy new whole system of delivery required to shuffle hydrogen from large centralized plants. Decentralizing like that also helps reduce the risk of any incidents at the pumps - if all hydrogen is created from water on demand, there is no storage of combustibles.

Also, poof no emissions at all unless you include steam. thats it.
 
spunkles182 said:
what do you think about cellulosic ethanol?
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Not really sure. A few South American countries are fuel independent now, because they convert sugar cane into ethanol. Works out well for them. I'd have to agree with EasyEJL, there are just so many better ways.
 
Oil is the most practical and efficient form of energy in use today.

There is no oil shortage. Oil scarcity is a fraud used to control prices and economies.

The pollution standards have been improved by technology to the point of an improving emissions ratio in the USA.

Ethanol uses more fuel energy to grow, harvest and process corn than it can return.

Hydrogen is also created by burning oil fuel energy which also makes it less efficient than fossil fuels.

Nuclear has that nasty waste product problem.

I prefer the smelly efficient oil system, which would be even more efficient, if the newer engine technologies were allowed to flourish
 
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