For weak Adrenals, anything other then right to Isocort?

Mr.50

Board Supporter
Guys if you suspect you have weak, burnt out adrenals is there any supplement products that might provide naturally occurring cortisone instead of going right to the Isocort or other prescription products?

Mr.50
 
Why cortisone? Is there any particular reason?

I am asking because I benefited tremendously from NOW Adrenal Support. It contains licorice root which extends the half life of cortisol, thus enabling the adrenals to make other hormones [pregnenolone, which converts to DHEA and then test etc.]. I used it for 3 weeks, just finished last week, and I have to admit those have been my happiest days ever, for no reason at that. You might think cortisol is a bad thing but I didn't get fat or lost muscle. These were the best $6.14 I have spent in my life.

For further info, you could google Charles Poliquin and licorice root to see what he has to say about it. That's where I got my info and it's been a blessing.
 
I don't think so. I believe DHEA is a cortisone antagonist if memory serves me. It does not convert into cortisol or corticosterone. Prenenolone does eventually but at what rate or percentage I do not know. Progesterone would be an even closer precursor to to the corticoids.

Obviously, gets some really good clarification on these before taking anything. Dr John can certainly give better info on these matters than I.
 
Just some of the reading i have done regarding the crossover between low thyroid and low adrenals. There is a lot of info that indicates that some low dose cortisone (or analog) can be of assistance. Maybe the NOW product is something i will look into though.

Mr.50

machinehead said:
Why cortisone? Is there any particular reason?

I am asking because I benefited tremendously from NOW Adrenal Support. It contains licorice root which extends the half life of cortisol, thus enabling the adrenals to make other hormones [pregnenolone, which converts to DHEA and then test etc.]. I used it for 3 weeks, just finished last week, and I have to admit those have been my happiest days ever, for no reason at that. You might think cortisol is a bad thing but I didn't get fat or lost muscle. These were the best $6.14 I have spent in my life.

For further info, you could google Charles Poliquin and licorice root to see what he has to say about it. That's where I got my info and it's been a blessing.
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I'm going to get some of that too, 50.

I was also hoping Custom or Nutra would put out tryosine ethyl ester when you suggested it a while back (I'm neuro-transmitter deficient also).
 
This is what my wife's Dr. put her on to help bring back her low adrenals.
Click on Ultra-Par after this link opens.
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I started taking my Temp. and was using this it helped but for me not enough so I went to Isocort. I am also doing a B-Com., Fish Oil 3 grams DHEA 25mgs 2x's a day and Vit. C 2 grams a day.

Taking your temp like this link says shows you how your doing. Print out the chart and keep a record.
When I started on this my avg. temp was 97.2 now it's 98.6 and to see it come up on the chart is great you know you doing something right.
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I use this to check my Temp.
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Get the book Adrenal Fatigue the 21st. Century.
Phil
 
thanks for the good refs Phil

Mr.50

pmgamer18 said:
This is what my wife's Dr. put her on to help bring back her low adrenals.
Click on Ultra-Par after this link opens.
Invalid Link Removed
I started taking my Temp. and was using this it helped but for me not enough so I went to Isocort. I am also doing a B-Com., Fish Oil 3 grams DHEA 25mgs 2x's a day and Vit. C 2 grams a day.

Taking your temp like this link says shows you how your doing. Print out the chart and keep a record.
When I started on this my avg. temp was 97.2 now it's 98.6 and to see it come up on the chart is great you know you doing something right.
Invalid Link Removed
I use this to check my Temp.
Invalid Link Removed
Get the book Adrenal Fatigue the 21st. Century.
Phil
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Mr.50 said:
Just some of the reading i have done regarding the crossover between low thyroid and low adrenals. There is a lot of info that indicates that some low dose cortisone (or analog) can be of assistance. Maybe the NOW product is something i will look into though.

Mr.50
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Oh, I didn't know you are hypothyroid. I haven't been tested, but I think I am a little hyper, I sweat a lot. Maybe there is a connection.

It seems that cortisone would do the same thing, it will provide more cortisol so the adrenals can take a break. Right now, you are probably running mostly on adrenaline but cortisol is needed for energy, hence the depression you mention in your other thread. I've been there before and the solution was readily available and cheap. Good luck!
 
I am but I have always been looking for a better treatment since the Synthroid alone did not seem to do the trick.

By the way what was the cheap solution you mention in your post, sounds good to me.

Mr.50

machinehead said:
Oh, I didn't know you are hypothyroid. I haven't been tested, but I think I am a little hyper, I sweat a lot. Maybe there is a connection.

It seems that cortisone would do the same thing, it will provide more cortisol so the adrenals can take a break. Right now, you are probably running mostly on adrenaline but cortisol is needed for energy, hence the depression you mention in your other thread. I've been there before and the solution was readily available and cheap. Good luck!
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Mr.50 said:
By the way what was the cheap solution you mention in your post, sounds good to me.
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It's the NOW product I mentioned above.

By the way, here's how things went for me. I've been lethargic for a long time, reaching a point where I couldn't even get out of bed and do school work that I had to do. I got depressed too. So I went to the doctor here at school, explained everything and suggested it could be my adrenals. She didn't even consider taking blood or something, just sent me to a psychologist to get tested for ADD! I went and talked to the person she referred me to. It turns out that there is waiting list for ADD testing and I have to pay a huge fee. I told her no way, besides, adderal is catabolic and I don't want that. She said, in the meantime, take some omega-3 and magnesium. I told I already take 6g of fish oil per day, and I gave her a lecture on omega 3s and what not. She was speechless. Then I did some reading on my own and found out about licorice root etc. It's amazing how simple the solution was and how the doctors took the western approach: addressing the symptoms instead of the causes. Anyway, I know you will find a solution yourself.
 
Oh my bad. I did look into it but I was hoping Nutra had it. I will have to put in the product request thread for Stryder.

Definately avoid the Adderal if you have adrenal burnout. I think that is part of the way I got to where I am, too much stimulent use.

Thanks for all the feedback bro.

Mr.50

machinehead said:
It's the NOW product I mentioned above.

By the way, here's how things went for me. I've been lethargic for a long time, reaching a point where I couldn't even get out of bed and do school work that I had to do. I got depressed too. So I went to the doctor here at school, explained everything and suggested it could be my adrenals. She didn't even consider taking blood or something, just sent me to a psychologist to get tested for ADD! I went and talked to the person she referred me to. It turns out that there is waiting list for ADD testing and I have to pay a huge fee. I told her no way, besides, adderal is catabolic and I don't want that. She said, in the meantime, take some omega-3 and magnesium. I told I already take 6g of fish oil per day, and I gave her a lecture on omega 3s and what not. She was speechless. Then I did some reading on my own and found out about licorice root etc. It's amazing how simple the solution was and how the doctors took the western approach: addressing the symptoms instead of the causes. Anyway, I know you will find a solution yourself.
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Too much stimulants(even caffiene)=adrenal exhaustion,definatly.

Something I tried is adrenal extract. They used to use this in conventional medicine "ACC" aka adrenal cortex extract. Then when pharmaceutical companies developed synthetic forms of cortisone they abandoned this even though it was effective. Can't make a lot of money on something that can't be patented.

This adrenal extract helped for me sometimes dramatically esp. in cases of overtraining tho at the time I didn't realize I was overtraining.I think basically overtraining is adrenal exhaustion since the body can't adapt anymore to the stress of that particular routine. That's why now periodization always now.

There's a good book on this (forgot title) at Borders and/or Barnes by the way. In Illinois,USA at least,don't know where your from. By the way not being able to get out of bed in the morning was a definite symptom as is lethargy.
 
jmh80 said:
Where could you get this adrenal extract??
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I believe a number of companies make it: Solaray, Planetary Formula, Source Naturals.

Maybe the poster has a specific brand in mind.
 
It's a glandular product,can't remember the brand sorry.I believe it's origins(of the glandular) is from Australian grass-fed cattle(bovine).I'll look at my bottle and get back,don't have acess to my supplements here.Matter of fact I'll look online and see.

By the way glandulars got a bad rap years ago,seen as boron was.
 
After a quik check: Invalid Link Removed
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Notice thyroid glandular is used in regular medicine known as Armour@ thyroid.
 
Well guys just to follow up,



Monday morning my temp was 97.8 degrees (now on 3 grain armour thyroid for the last week)

about 3 hours later it was 98.6 degrees


about 2 hours after working out and later in the day (approx 8 pm) my temp was 99.0 degrees



by midnight it was 98.4 degrees.


Then this morning it was 97.6 when I woke up !!!!! So I realize this is only one day but we are talking about a range of 1.4 degrees in a 24 hour period without being sick.

It seems to me that if this trend continues I will really have to address the adrenal issue because from what I have read temperature variability is really indicative of weak adrenals even in the presence of thyroid replacement.


Thoughts?


Mr.50
 
Mr.50 said:
Well guys just to follow up,



Monday morning my temp was 97.8 degrees (now on 3 grain armour thyroid for the last week)

about 3 hours later it was 98.6 degrees


about 2 hours after working out and later in the day (approx 8 pm) my temp was 99.0 degrees



by midnight it was 98.4 degrees.


Then this morning it was 97.6 when I woke up !!!!! So I realize this is only one day but we are talking about a range of 1.4 degrees in a 24 hour period without being sick.

It seems to me that if this trend continues I will really have to address the adrenal issue because from what I have read temperature variability is really indicative of weak adrenals even in the presence of thyroid replacement.


Thoughts?


Mr.50
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Well your morning temp if it is before you get out of bed tells me your Thyroid med is good the dose is good. You can't count the first temp you take in the morning you need to be up 3 hrs then start taking it. I do 9am, 12pm 3pm and 6pm. after 6pm you body temp is going to be lower.
Phil
 
O.K. guys found out the the brand I like(no financial affiliation) is nutri-meds brand.Invalid Link Removed.

By the way Mr.50 3grains thyroid = full replacement dose,I prefer 1/2 to 1 grain natural thyroid myself,just to help thyroid function.Last time I tried a larger dose had a lot of sweating,ect.But your bodyweight also has something to do with this ie.more wt., more thyroid needed.

I do think you are correct in that if adrenal function is sub-par,thyroid supplementation is counter-productive.

My understanding is that you take temp. readings right when you get up in the morning,before doing anything.That's what I did and my readings were really low first time I tried this..Like 96.something degrees.

I used under the armpit readings with a sensitive pregnancy thermometer first thing in morning before doing anything.After all you want your resting metabolic rate.

I'm just relating my experiences, you could have totally different ones.Hope this might have helped.
 
If you check out this site you will see the avg. dose of Armour is 3 grains. They claim if you feel like this on a low dose like your doing it because you have low adrenals or low Ferritin levels.
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And this site is dam good also.
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Phil
FYI777 said:
O.K. guys found out the the brand I like(no financial affiliation) is nutri-meds brand.Invalid Link Removed.

By the way Mr.50 3grains thyroid = full replacement dose,I prefer 1/2 to 1 grain natural thyroid myself,just to help thyroid function.Last time I tried a larger dose had a lot of sweating,ect.But your bodyweight also has something to do with this ie.more wt., more thyroid needed.

I do think you are correct in that if adrenal function is sub-par,thyroid supplementation is counter-productive.

My understanding is that you take temp. readings right when you get up in the morning,before doing anything.That's what I did and my readings were really low first time I tried this..Like 96.something degrees.

I used under the armpit readings with a sensitive pregnancy thermometer first thing in morning before doing anything.After all you want your resting metabolic rate.

I'm just relating my experiences, you could have totally different ones.Hope this might have helped.
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pmg I did read the sites and I thought from my reading ( I could have misunderstood) that though my thyroid dosage is at the average (3 grains) if I am still having significant temperature variability and symptoms (extreme fatigue in the morning and late evening, especially after working out) that it was likely that the problem was a correct replacement dosage of thyroid but still underlying unaddressed weakened adrenals. Did I misunderstand?

Thanks in advance bro.

Mr.50
 
Mr.50 said:
pmg I did read the sites and I thought from my reading ( I could have misunderstood) that though my thyroid dosage is at the average (3 grains) if I am still having significant temperature variability and symptoms (extreme fatigue in the morning and late evening, especially after working out) that it was likely that the problem was a correct replacement dosage of thyroid but still underlying unaddressed weakened adrenals. Did I misunderstand?

Thanks in advance bro.

Mr.50
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No I feel your Adrenals are low and you may find that getting them fixed you will be on more then 3 graims of Armour the thing is to get your Temp before getting out of bed up. A temp of 97.8 to 98.2 shows your Armour is at a good dose and if you can keep a temp during the day of 98.6 your Adrenal's are good.
Phil
 
Dr. John said:
I've never heard that about licorice root. Any references available?
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No, I don't have any references for it, I just took Poliquin's word for it.

Dr. John said:
Still, this would not magically "help" the adrenals produce "other" hormones. And for adult males, adrenal testosterone production is only a tiny fraction of total production.
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Of course it won't. But I suspect my test isn't low. Besides, that was Poliquin's explanation in layman's terms.

Dr. John said:
The real key with cortisol, as with all other hormones, is to appreciate it has a healthful range. IOW, it is only bad when levels are either too high or too low.
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Unfortunately, the doctors at school wouldn't test for anything. I had no numbers to start with so first I assumed I had high cortisol: took cortisol blockers, no change in body composition or well-being. Then I assumed cortisol must be low, took licorice root, problem fixed! I will be out of school in a few months, I will be able to go to a real doctor then.
 
Here is an excerpt from the interview, I don't want to misconstrue what he said:

TC: I know you’ve been using licorice cream to elevate Testosterone levels. Most of the sports science guys say that licorice is bad news, a strong estrogen agonist, so how did you come up with the idea of using it to elevate T levels?

Charles Poliquin: Most of the studies on licorice being an estrogen agonist were done on women. What was shown was that the licorice cream aggravated PMS symptoms in women already showing estrogen dominance.

TC: Well that’s a hell of a good model for athletes!

Charles Poliquin: Yes! It’s like saying boron increases Testosterone, yes, in women going through menopause who are also magnesium deficient. So, here’s the rationale: the reason some people are Testosterone deficient has to do with acetyl coenzyme A, which changes into pregnenolone, and pregnenolone is the mother of hormones. Pregnenolone has two choices in life: it can become cortisol or DHEA.

When a guy has a ****ty diet, a poor lifestyle, useless training programs, he forms a preferential pathway so his pregnenolone turns into cortisol and what happens is that there’s less raw material to turn into DHEA. If you don’t have enough DHEA, you’re basically castrating yourself.

The function of licorice root is to do two things; one is to prolong the half-life or cortisol. Now there are actually 7 mathematical permutations of what can happen to the Testosterone/cortisol ratio, depending on time of day, so what you have to do is give licorice cream when the guy’s cortisol is low.

By the way, only one patient out every 250 comes up well in circadian Testosterone/cortisol tests.

Now, if an athlete’s been under stress for too long a time, you actually get to the point where he does not make cortisol or DHEA, and that’s when you start running on adrenaline. The worst scores most always come from people living in the Northeast part of the USA. A symptom of that is you start waking up in the middle of the night because cortisol, if you remember, is low-grade adrenaline.

So, if a guy tests with low Testosterone and low cortisol in the morning and also low DHEA, we give him licorice extract. It prolongs the half-life of the cortisol and it fools the body into thinking, "Okay, now when I next have the opportunity to make cortisol or DHEA, I’m going to go the way of DHEA because my cortisol is elevated. Then, of course, DHEA is preferentially converted to Testosterone.

Licorice root also has the advantage of lowering LDL and triglycerides; including helping convert T4 to T3. You can also put it on the abs and your fat levels will go down.

But you can’t give it to everybody every time; you can only use it to increase T in guys who have low cortisol and low DHEA.

By the way, another way to fool the body is to give it a stable form of Vitamin B5 in very large quantities, and since the B5 is the precursor to acetyl Coenzyme A, it leads to more pregnenolone, which ultimately leads to higher Testosterone.
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Dr. John said:
WOW. I think I may have one patient at 3 grains QD.
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See it goes to show you can can't believe everything you read at a site on the web. Hell they are saying most do over 3 grains. Yet they are all saying they could not take more because of low cortisol levels. Something about the Armour not getting into the cells from the blood stream because there cortisol or Ferritin levels were so low. They calim that when they up there dose they feel hyper. Adding HC to bring up the cortisol levels lets them take more Armour.
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Phil
 
Dr. John said:
But I would hasten to add that if the licorice is making you feel better (and is not hurting you) then that is wonderful.

Your anecdotal evidence makes us quite interested. Who wants to do some research on this topic, and report back to the rest of us?
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I can't deny that, I've been fighting lethargy for years.

I will mention Charles Poliquin again just to make a point here. He calls exercise scientists 'exercise historians' because what he and others in the same field are doing is ahead of what science has studied so far. Therefore, there might not be much research done on licorice root. I, of course, am at least as interested as you are in it, but my personal experience has been good enough to make me a bit reluctant to research it further, as counterintuitive as it sounds.
 
:thumbsup:
Dr. John said:
The other doctors in my area would have their minds blown if they heard what I do sitting through lectures at A4M conferences. Naivete is not a crime; however, insisting upon remaining ten years behind the times is, IMO, as it is detrimental to the health and well-being of the public.
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Props to you :thumbsup:
 
Dr. John said:
I would sincerely like to see some studies regarding licorice to back some of this up, if anyone can find any.
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Hi Dr. John,

Here is some info on licorice.

Licorice lowers testosterone and acts as an estrogen. Not a good thing for a man to take, but for women it's great. I have used Licorice before and know first hand. Licorice is also used by women to alleviate menopausal symptoms.

If one already has low T, then the effect is even more pronounced. Immediately noticeable for me was a drop in libido.
(I couldn't post the URL's for the links below because when I try to post it says that I need to make 20 posts before posting URL's. Put a www. before youngagain. Unfortunately you will have to copy and paste this in a seperate window to read it.)

youngagain.com/licorice.html
medtech.info/news/news_display.php?key_news=20030918ma155223@1506
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3112606.stm

The only people who may not feel the T lowering effect of Licorice are those whose T levels are high. Those whose T levels are already low, will feel it immediately, which was the case with myself when I used Licorice. Licorice works very well for assisting the Adrenals with cortisol and aldosterone. It's unfortunate that it affects T negativley as well. There is a more recent study below claiming that licorice does not effect Testosterone levels.

Licorice affects cortisol metabolism by inhibiting 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 2.

1: Horm Res. 2006;65(2):106-10. Epub 2006 Feb 3. Links

Liquorice in moderate doses does not affect sex steroid hormones of biological importance although the effect differs between the genders.

• Sigurjonsdottir HA,
• Axelson M,
• Johannsson G,
• Manhem K,
• Nystrom E,
• Wallerstedt S.
Department of Endocrinology, Sahlgrenska University Hospital/Sahlgrenska, Goteborg, Sweden. [email protected]

BACKGROUND/AIM: Liquorice is commonly consumed, at least in the western world, and we have earlier shown that even moderate doses of liquorice have significant effects on the cortisol metabolism by inhibiting 11beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 2. The suggestion that liquorice decreases the testosterone levels in men makes it vital to study the effect of moderate doses of liquorice on sex steroid hormones. METHODS: Fifteen women and 21 men (healthy volunteers and subjects with essential hypertension) consumed 100 g of liquorice (150 mg glycyrrhetinic acid) daily in a 9-week, open-treatment trial. Blood and 24-hour urine samples were collected for hormone analysis before and after 4 weeks of liquorice consumption and 4 weeks after cessation of liquorice intake. RESULTS: The liquorice induced a moderate decrease in the serum concentrations of dehydroepiandrostenedione sulphate in men (p = 0.002). The relative change in serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate differed between the genders (p = 0.03). No significant changes were observed in the serum testosterone levels after 4 weeks of liquorice consumption, and the urine excretion of androgens (etiocholanolone and androstenedione) did not change. CONCLUSIONS: Liquorice in moderate doses primarily affects the cortisol metabolism and only marginally the androgen hormones. Gender may influence the action of liquorice. Copyright 2006 S. Karger AG, Basel
PMID: 16462145 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



I personally prefer to take hydrocortisone. Other natural products that stimulate cortisol are panax ginseng and Maca, both of which work very well. Vitamin b5 also stimulates cortisol.
 
Thanks Dr. John. Looks like you had a great vacation. Welcome back.

I forgot to mention that vitamin C also stimulates cortisol production. It's important for the vitamin C to have a 2:1 ratio of vitamin C to bioflavanoids to optimise absorption. I use this brand (1000mg with breakfast, lunch, dinner):
(put a www. in the front and copy and paste it into a seperate browser window)
puritan.com/pages/file.asp?xs=85FDBC3D4B104FDA92D2AEDAA3635C5D&PID=415&CPID=1115&np=1&lbl=1#label


After doing TRT, my requirement for supplements to increase cortisol was dramatically reduced.

Here is a study on the effects of testosterone on 11 beta-HSD and thereby cortisol metabolism.

1: Gen Pharmacol. 1997 May;28(5):661-4. Related Articles, Links


Opposite effects of sex steroids on 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity in the normal and adrenalectomized rat testis.

Nwe KH, Morat PB, Khalid BA.

Department of Physiology, Faculty of Medicine, University Kebangsaan Malaysia, Jalan Raja Muda, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.

1. Sex steroids have been shown to regulate the biosynthesis of 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (11 beta-HSD). 2. In vitro studies showed that oestradiol (E2) or testosterone (T) can interfere with the bioassay of enzyme activity, but not progesterone (P4). 3. For in vivo studies, the activity of 11 beta-HSD in the testis of normal and adrenalectomized (ADX) adult male Wistar rats was determined following a daily IM injection of sex steroids for 7 days. 4. The 11 beta-HSD activity was significantly reduced (P < 0.01) either by E2 or T in normal and ADX rats. The enzyme activity in normal rats given both T and E2 was even lower (P < 0.001) than when E2 was given alone. 5. P4 given to normal and ADX rats increased the enzyme activity higher than normal (P < 0.001). 6. The presence of corticosteroids influenced the effects of E2, but not of T and P4, on 11 beta-HSD activity. 7. E2 and T downregulate 11 beta-HSD activity, whereas P4 increased it. E2 did not act through lowering T level.

PMID: 9184798 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Dear Dr John,

Dangit I knew 3 gr. thyroid was a high dose,but nobody listens.

I don't know how to transfer text or threads on this board but please look at the thread "Glycyrrhetinic acid" in the transdermal section. Interesting reading for sure.

Take care and peace.
 
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