doesn't someone make nolva/clomid blend?

[ps24eva]

doesn't someone make nolva/clomid blend?

i thought i heard that before

 

[N4cer]

Because it's not any better than one or the other, although some people have too much money and need to WASTE it on crap like that.

 

[intv]

doesn't someone make nolva/clomid blend?

i thought i heard that before

yeah, liquid research makes a nolva/clomid combo. I think it saves you $5. I like to have anything (chems, supps, food) seperate personally, so that I can dose in the ratio I find best. I like taking clomid and nolva together PCT, but I take them with a lower dose of clomid than that combo contains. Also, what if gyno pops up? Do you really want to take 50-100 mg/day of clomid on cycle AND burn through your PCT chems? If they were seperate, you could take the nolva on cycle, then still have clomid for your PCT. (although I think clomid blows alone! you need high doses and get bad sides)

 

[brooklynheight]

some AAS users swear by it-

 

[supersoldier]

Because it's not any better than one or the other, although some people have too much money and need to WASTE it on crap like that.

How do you figure this? Nolva and Clo is definitely better then just one in the first two weeks post cycle. Something like Week 1 40mg(N)/100mg(C) ; Week 2 30mg(N)/50mg(C), Week 3 20mg(N), Week 4 10mg(N) will definitely get your balls up and running faster than just nolva IMHO. It's not a huge deal but if you got the money to "WASTE" it might save you a pound or two of muscle or spare a pound or two of fat or save you a couple days of feeling like total **** because you produce no testosterone.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

How do you figure this? Nolva and Clo is definitely better .....will definitely get your balls up and running faster than just nolva IMHO.

No its not and no it won't.

 

[MarcusG]

I believe another mod on am did say what supersoldier is repeating that nolv+clomid is better.

 

[N4cer]

Well, I also know that a lot of myths float around. Hell, I used to believe some bullshit about EQ and Deca acting in the same way and being a waste. Just like some people believe injectable winny won't damage the liver.

Now where's that damned Primo fairy?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I believe another mod on am did say what supersoldier is repeating that nolv+clomid is better.

I know size has used this combo but I don't agree that it helps. There is no proof that it helps when both are used. Actually some studies suggest it might take longer when Clomid is used.

But if some people thinks it helps them, I won't argue with what they feel. The studies just show a different story.

I think using Nolva with 7-oxo is a much better combination.

 

[N4cer]

I HATE posting articles and studies, but this one is a good read for everyone:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/magazine/i6clomid.html

 

[Longdog]

Whether or not combining the 2 helps restore natty test faster, it will certainly restore libido faster. When I use both, my libido is full force in a matter of days. It takes 2-3 weeks with nolva alone. Being married, I need it back fast. I don't always take both because of the clomid sides though.

 

[brooklynheight]

William Llewellyn is a jerk

 

[Dwight Schrute]

William Llewellyn is a jerk

If you have nothing constructive to add, don't post.

 

[ItriedtoripoffBobosonowIamgonehaveaniceday]

would you mind posting the next part that he mentions at the end. It seems like an interesting read. Thanks N4cer. I went to the site and couldnt find it.

 

[size]

I know size has used this combo but I don't agree that it helps.

But if some people thinks it helps them, I won't argue with what they feel. The studies just show a different story.

I think using Nolva with 7-oxo is a much better combination.

How DARE you disagree with me!

Seriously though,
I have used the clomid and novladex combo, and it works for me. However, I rely much more heavily on the nolvadex(nolva for 4 weeks and clomid for only 10-14 days) I have seen the studies the Bobo is refering to and it appears that he is correct. However, I have felt that this combo worked well for me. If you remember, it was not so long ago that everyone preached clomid and said nolvadex would not work. Now the tables have turned.

If I was forced to choose, I would certainly take Nolva over clomid w/o a doubt. The combo of nolva/clomid worked well for me once so I continued the same protocol. However, it is possible that the combo was unnecessary and I just happened to recover faster that time. None the less, I stuck with it.

In addition, I think 7oxo as Bobo suggested is a good idea.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

How DARE you disagree with me!

Don't listen to me. I don't know what I'm talking about

 

[Lean One]

How DARE you disagree with me!

Seriously though,
I have used the clomid and novladex combo, and it works for me. However, I rely much more heavily on the nolvadex(nolva for 4 weeks and clomid for only 10-14 days) I have seen the studies the Bobo is refering to and it appears that he is correct. However, I have felt that this combo worked well for me. If you remember, it was not so long ago that everyone preached clomid and said nolvadex would not work. Now the tables have turned.

If I was forced to choose, I would certainly take Nolva over clomid w/o a doubt. The combo of nolva/clomid worked well for me once so I continued the same protocol. However, it is possible that the combo was unnecessary and I just happened to recover faster that time. None the less, I stuck with it.

In addition, I think 7oxo as Bobo suggested is a good idea.

Size, Could you provide the dosages that you used for Nolva/Clomid PCT? I'm about to start mine. I have nolva,but I also have 1/2 a bottle of clomid left too. I would like to try using them both in the best way possible. Thanks.

 

[Longdog]

I had good results adding 100mg clomid the first 2 days, then 50mg for about 10 days. That's along with normal nolva dosing- 40mg/20mg/20mg/10mg over 4 weeks. I tried to use as little clomid as possible, since my face breaks out like a sausage pizza with high doses of it.

 

[Lean One]

I had good results adding 100mg clomid the first 2 days, then 50mg for about 10 days. That's along with normal nolva dosing- 40mg/20mg/20mg/10mg over 4 weeks. I tried to use as little clomid as possible, since my face breaks out like a sausage pizza with high doses of it.

Thanks man! I have just enough clomid to do that. I'll let you guys know if I recover any faster compared to clomid alone.

 

[N4cer]

would you mind posting the next part that he mentions at the end. It seems like an interesting read. Thanks N4cer. I went to the site and couldnt find it.

Here ya go: http://www.avantlabs.com/magmain.php?issueID=7&pageID=77

The only bad part of that is the HCG dosages are WAY too high. This is a couple years old, so more is understood about aromatization's effect on Leydig cells. So now we know to use less HCG.

 

[Sir Foxx]

What is everyone's opinion of using either novladex or clomid with either 6-OXO or Formenstane? My PCT on this last cycle consisted of Clomid and Formenstane and it worked well, just wanted to know what others thought.

 

[N4cer]

I don't think aromatase inhibitors are needed in PCT, since there's not enough test available to worry about aromatization.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

First of all, withouth bloodwork nobody can tell if there PCT was successful. So all these people saying "I recovered better" means jack squat unless you can post bloodwork to prove it. Your increase in libido is NOT an indication. Your increase in testes size is a mild indication. And that doesn't mean checking for 3 weeks during PCT and see LH and test are rising and figure everything is ok. PCT is often a monthly process.

Second AI's can cause a nasty rebound of estrogen when levels are suppressed for a good peroid of time. Its not needed post cycle not to mention its effects on lipid profiles.

Third, Formestane in mildy suppressive itself so using it for PCT is a bad idea.

Fourth.......I don't have a fourth...

 

[size]

PCT is often a monthly process.

You get a gold star.

 

[Sir Foxx]

Well, I only used Formenstane for the first two weeks of PCT(the entire length was 5 weeks). I didn't have bloodwork done, but I base my opinion that it worked fine on the fact I only lost 9 pounds of weight after gaining 28lbs, my strength never faltered, and yes my sex drive was back to normal within that time frame. If it didn't work, I feel I would have lost more weight and definately strength. Also, I don't feel Formenstane is suppressive at all taken orally. Injection might be different, but orally I don't think their is enough conversion at the dose I was taking to be suppressive at all.

 

[MarcusG]

The problem with gauging recovery from just sex drive is that libido can be ok even if natural test levels are very very low (with a lot of variation among individuals of course).

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Also, I don't feel Formenstane is suppressive at all taken orally. Injection might be different, but orally I don't think their is enough conversion at the dose I was taking to be suppressive at all.

Studies already show it binds to the AR. It is suppressive. If it doesn't convert to an amount to have a suppressive effect, then if won't have any anti-estrogen effect. Whether you inject, take it orally, transdermal or whatever, the amount needed to cause an anti-e effect will in turn cause a suppressive effect. They go hand in hand.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

but orally I don't think their is enough conversion at the dose I was taking to be suppressive at all.

How would you know that?

 

[comrade]

Studies already show it binds to the AR. It is suppressive. If it doesn't convert to an amount to have a suppressive effect, then if won't have any anti-estrogen effect. Whether you inject, take it orally, transdermal or whatever, the amount needed to cause an anti-e effect will in turn cause a suppressive effect. They go hand in hand.

formestane? the aromatase inhibitor? yeah it might bind to the AR, but it also inhibits 5-alpha reductase (if I recall correct) and aromatase, how can you concluse that just because it binds to the AR receptor that it is inhibitory, did the study find this also? the anti-estrogen/dht effect could overcompenstate hypothetically.

 

[Sir Foxx]

I was basing my opinion on it not be suppressive on the fact that at 100mg a day(which is what I was taking), the bioavailbility is probably around 1 to 3 mg. I don't think 1 to 3 mg of formenstane is suppressive. I might be wrong, but my physique and subsequent off cycle say different.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

formestane? the aromatase inhibitor? yeah it might bind to the AR, but it also inhibits 5-alpha reductase (if I recall correct) and aromatase, how can you concluse that just because it binds to the AR receptor that it is inhibitory, did the study find this also? the anti-estrogen/dht effect could overcompenstate hypothetically.

Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.

Davies JH, Shearer RJ, Rowlands MG, Poon GK, Houghton J, Jarman M, Dowsett M.

Department of Urology, St. Georges Hospital, London, England, UK.

The steroidal aromatase inhibitor, 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione (4OHA) and its metabolites, 4-hydroxytestosterone (4OHT), 3 beta,17-dihydroxy-5 alpha-androstan-4-one (metabolite A) and 3 alpha, 17-dihydroxy-5 beta-androstan-4-one (metabolite B) were evaluated as inhibitors of the human prostatic 5 alpha-reductase enzyme and for binding to the rat prostatic androgen receptor. 4OHA and 4OHT were weak inhibitors of 5 alpha-reductase with IC50 values of 15-29 microM. Metabolites A and B had no significant inhibitory activity. 4OHA and metabolites A and B bound weakly to the androgen receptor. The binding affinities (RBA) relative to mibolerone (RBA = 100) were 0.085, 0.485 and 0.016, respectively. However, 4OHT (RBA = 75) was a more potent binder than the endogenous androgen 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (RBA = 66). The ability of these metabolites, in particular 4OHT, to bind to the androgen receptor may explain the in vivo androgenic activity of 4OHA.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I was basing my opinion on it not be suppressive on the fact that at 100mg a day(which is what I was taking), the bioavailbility is probably around 1 to 3 mg. I don't think 1 to 3 mg of formenstane is suppressive. I might be wrong, but my physique and subsequent off cycle say different.

Where do you get these numbers from? And what do you mean that the bioavailability is 1 to 3mg? How do you know how much is availbable for tissue use?

Also how does your physique show recovery? Just by weight and strenght?

Do you have bloodwork to show your recovery?

What do you base you conclusion on that 1-3mg won't suppress? I can find a study showing Var (weakest of all steroid) to suppress at 2.5mg/day and thats in a normal male that is NOT suppressed. Estrgoen metabolites can suppress in mcg's.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

the anti-estrogen/dht effect could overcompenstate hypothetically.

What do you mean the anit-e effect? The creation of a steroidal deficit I assume to creat LH pulse?

That would be saying that Nolva can raise test levels during cycle and it can't. If the feedback loop is triggered, it doesn't matter what the deficit is, the testes will not respond to LH. Only HCG can bypass that.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I don't think 1 to 3 mg of formenstane is suppressive. .

Forgot to mention even if it isn't that suppressive on those amounts, your already suppressed. Introducing a substance that has androgenic effects would only slow down the process. Even Bill L admitted that when he said 6-oxo would be better for PCT and Formestane during a cycle.

 

[Sir Foxx]

I get the 1 to 3 mg from Derek at Syntrax. This is what he told me. And yes, bloodwork is a more accurate gauge of what is really going on, but I have a good feel for my body and what is occurring. If my nat. test levels weren't coming back up to normal and staying there I would know it, both in the weight room and the mirror. I don't know if taking Formenstane is the right thing to do with Clomid for PCT, but I figured I would try it out this time. Maybe just the Clomid would have done better, faster. Then again, maybe for your next PCT try what I did: 5 week PCT, Clomid all five 5 weeks at recommended dosages, and Formenstane at 100mg a day for the first week and a half and then 50 mg for the last part of the second week.

On my next cycle PCT I will be doing only Clomid and I will do the blood work through out the cycle and PCT.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I still don't understand where he got that number from. Nobody knows that number.

This is from Bill L who was the first to market something like this.

"My .02. I like Nolvadex better (if I HAD to pick) because it supports HDL cholesterol synthesis (its estrogenic action in the liver), but formestane is simply a killer aromatase inhibitor."

This is from Pat:

"However, unlike formestane it does not convert to any metabolites with strong androgenic activity. So it is a better choice for post cycle recovery than formestane.

Well, if it is enough to "help" in regards to androgenic activity then by definition it will be enough to "hinder" HPTA activity as well. Hinder in this case means to partially counteract the HPTA stimulating anti-estrogenic activity.

With 6-oxo there is no HPTA "tug of war" going on, there is just pure anti-estrogenicity and therefore maximum HPTA stimulation.

YOur product is very good for use during cycle Bill, but for post cycle recovery it is clearly inferior to 6-OXO"



And if you didn't notice the potency, the RBA was only 25% less the miberlone (cheque drops).


And I still don't know how you can tell me "I know my body and I know whats going" when you don't even have blood test or a reference point. You keep sayin I can see a difference in the mirror but fail to understand that recovery can take months and you might not see differences until 1-3 months after PCT is finished. You could have a raging libido and STILL have low test levels. You could have small nuts but have HIGH test levels. If you don't know these things, you don't know your body. What you "feel" has zero basis far making an educated recommendation.

 

[Sir Foxx]

But thats the thing Bobo, it's almost 10 weeks since the cycle ended. My nuts are not shrunken, my weight is steady, my lifts are strong, my physique looks good. I've started my cutting cycle and all is going well. If my nat. test levels were low, most of this wouldn't be true. I'm not a simpleton, and if the formenstane hurt a little, the Clomid more than made up for it. You make it sound like you can have low test levels but still maintain the gains one made on cycle. I don't think you can. That is why by keeping what I gained after all this time, I'm pretty sure my PCT was successful.

 

[supersoldier]

Short of shooting HCG you are BOUND TO HAVE low test levels for at least the first two weeks post cycle. EXTREMELY LOW! And lot's of people that don't shoot HCG keep their gains.

 

[Sir Foxx]

I understand that SS, but I'm not talking the first two weeks, I'm talking right now, 10 weeks later. I feel I've recovered.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Short of shooting HCG you are BOUND TO HAVE low test levels for at least the first two weeks post cycle. EXTREMELY LOW! And lot's of people that don't shoot HCG keep their gains.

But the ones that do keep more. If I'm not mistaken he lost almost 1/3 of his gains. THats not acceptable to me at all. I've done cycles where I've lost nothing at all because of what I used, how I trained and how I ate. If I lost almost 1/3 of my gains, I'd be pissed off.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I'm not a simpleton, and if the formenstane hurt a little, the Clomid more than made up for it. .

It doens't matter if it made up for it!!! The point is using it diminishes the effect of Clomid and/or Nolva because there is a tug of war going on with you being suppressed, and not being suppressed. Its not that hard to follow. Why the HELL would you want to put something in your body that has adrogenic activity while your trying to RECOVER? It doesn't make sense and just because your mirror tells you so, doesn't mean its smart.

This is just ridiculous..

 

[Sir Foxx]

Like I said Bobo, I was trying some stuff out, to see what the results were. So me losing 9lbs was unacceptable to you? I look at this way. Last year on Feb. 1st I weighed 178lbs. Today I weighed 210lbs, with the calipers showing me at 13% BF. At the end of the last cycle I weighed 218 lbs. I'm happy with that. Considering I'm only 5'8" and that my goal is to reach 225lbs at 10% BF, I'm very close to being where I want to be. Sorry if that isn't up to your standards.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

My standards should be your standards. Your standards should be mine. They should be one and the same. I don't bust my ass in the gym, analyze my diet and know everything I can know about the hromones I take to lose 1/3 of my gains post cycle. Just because Derek gave some Aromazap doens't mean you had to take it. You should of used it during a cycle where its a very good aromatase inhibitor. You probably would of ketp more gains if just used the Clomid, but nobody will ever know that now.

 

[size]

My standards should be your standards. Your standards should be mine. They should be one and the same.

This is a really good point.