DHEA AND HTPA SUPPRESSION...

houseman

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Hey guys,

Tried searching for this but couldn't find the answer. Looked through a bunch of studies posted in two threads as well.

Does DHEA suppress HPTA?
 

houseman

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I did read a post by Bobo that was made a year ago that said:

"The downside is that, unlike previously believed, DHEA exerts no major anabolic effects. And it is still an exogenous hormone, which means it does suppress natural testosterone. "
Now, given some of the studies I've been reading, it appears that not might be 100% accurate due to newer research but I am not sure. I can't find anything conclusive so it'd be great if we had SOME kind of definitive answer.
 

CarryOnTheChaos

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BUMP!

I always use 200mg ED for Post Cycle

COTC
 
BodyWizard

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With all respect to Bobo - while supplemental DHEA is exogenous, it is a precursor to endogenous test production, and would therefore be supportive - not suppressive - of natural testosterone.

My logic may be faulty, I may not have all the facts, but I'd need a compelling reason to conclude that raw materials inhibit production.
 

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Andro inhibits production and it is only one step removed from DHEA. That said, I do not have any further information on the subject so I cannot form a valid opinion. I do not use it because I want to have something in my arsenal after I turn 30.
 
Alpha Dog

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My theory (and it is just that) is that DHEA in itself is only mildly suppressive if at all. I have looked for a number of studies (on pubmed and elsewhere) showing that either DHEA or Androstenedione is suppressive and basically came up with nothing. Most of the studies that were done with regards to Andro (a direct metabolite of DHEA) showed it to be suppressive because of the increased aromatization of estrogen. Thus, it is my belief that if you can prevent or inhibit the aromatization of DHEA to estrogen, you will go a long way to preventing any negative inhibition of HTPA.

However, there was one study that I found that did indicate that DHEA may downregulate GnRH transcription, which would not be beneficial.

...................................................................................
Evidence that dehydroepiandrosterone, DHEA, directly inhibits GnRH gene expression in GT1-7 hypothalamic neurons.

Cui H, Lin SY, Belsham DD.

Department of Physiology, Toronto General Hospital Research Institute, University Health Network, University of Toronto, Medical Sciences Building 3247A, 1 King's College Circle, Toronto, ON, Canada M5S 1A8.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) has been reported to have diverse effects on overall physiology, although its mechanism of action and specific receptor are not yet known. We have used the immortalized, clonal GT1-7 hypothalamic neurons to study DHEA effects on gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) gene expression. DHEA (10(-4) M) downregulates GnRH transcription by 39, 70 and 83% at 24, 36, and 48 h, respectively, while DHEA-sulphate had no effect. Hydroxyflutamide a specific androgen receptor (AR) antagonist, and cyproterone acetate or trilostane, both inhibitors of 3 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase/delta 4,5 isomerase, the rate-limiting enzyme for the conversion of DHEA to sex steroids, did not affect the ability of DHEA to downregulate GnRH gene expression. We found that GT1-7 cells did not express aromatase, thereby precluding conversion to estrogen. Analysis of [(14)C] DHEA metabolism by thin layer chromatography indicates that the main metabolites produced are 7 alpha- and 7 beta-hydroxy DHEA, and 7-oxo DHEA, although these steroids were not able to repress GnRH gene expression alone. Cell viability studies indicated that the transcriptional repression observed is not due to GT1-7 cell death. Interestingly, SV40 T-antigen mRNA levels, under the control of 2.3 kb of the rat GnRH gene 5' regulatory region, are also repressed by DHEA. Our studies indicate that DHEA has direct effects on GnRH transcription that appear to be unique from those observed after conversion to other steroidogenic compounds.
 

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With all respect to Bobo - while supplemental DHEA is exogenous, it is a precursor to endogenous test production, and would therefore be supportive - not suppressive - of natural testosterone.

My logic may be faulty, I may not have all the facts, but I'd need a compelling reason to conclude that raw materials inhibit production.
um...lots of things are precursors to testosterone. 4-ad, andro-dione, also every estered test. every one of them suppresses, not supports. if you didnt make the test, it's exogenous, and you didnt make the DHEA in the pill.

this is just thinking out loud. as much study that has been done with DHEA, you'd think there would be a clinical trial available.

edit: looks like there is! well, sorta.

note that rat hormones are vastly different than a human's. also - good to know that 7-OXO-DHEA doesnt suppress.
 

Nate Dawg

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I beleive DR.D said that he believed it was completely safe to take upwards of 500mg/day, could probably do more, but he said to be conservative 500mg/day should not suppress the HPTA during PCT. I am going to give 200mg/day a shot for my next pct.
 

THE GREATEST

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I'm doing 200mg/day for my PCT with nolva and nuts are coming back fine. It is also keeping my mood elevated and BF% down. I never thought much about it, but figured I'd give it a try to see for myself, and so far so good.
 

former_SlimJim

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I did the 200mg / day as recommended by Dr. D after my last cycle. I'm not sure if it got my boys going any quicker, but I ended up with severe acne during PCT, which never happened before.
 

MarcusG

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DHEA doesn't help normalize the suppressed HPTA after taking ph/steroids.

The interesting bit about it is that Dr.D mentioned some time back that it seemed to help bring up lagging size in atrophic testicle in hamster studies. But I haven't found those studies from my own searches.
 

diamonddave

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seemed to help bring up lagging size in atrophic testicle in hamster studies.
Cool! Since my nuts are about the size of a hampster's right now, this is GREAT news!!!!

dd
 

MarcusG

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But, will it hinder normalization?
I think its mildly suppressive at high enough doses. I think its useful at low doses for slight mood/libido improvements.
 
lifted

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Yeah, I'm kinda still skewed on this whole thing to tell you the truth. I had a little mini-log going in the supp forum when I was taking it with my PCT. I still don't feel as good since I stopped taking it. Still feeling like crap in the morning at the moment. That was the most profound positive effect that I noticed while taking DHEA. As soon as I woke up, I was ready for my day.

I stopped my nolva last week....a week after I stopped the DHEA. And honestly, I still don't feel really recovered. Hopefully I will here in a bit. I'm about to start taking DHEA again...lol.
 
lifted

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I think its mildly suppressive at high enough doses. I think its useful at low doses for slight mood/libido improvements.
I noticed just as much with 50mg ED than at 200mg. The 200 just gave me more sides.
 

Knowbull

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It WILL shut you down eventually. if you take it long enough.
 

x_muscle

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DHEA is suppressive at high dose, just like any PH.
 
BOHICA

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I ran 250mg DHEA ED with Fen as my PCT on 3 weeks of SD. It brought my test levels back up in under a week. It did not help out with libido though, but 2 blood tests both showed my test levels were in the normal range 1 week after getting off SD. I am running DHEA and Fen as my first week's PCT after my next 3 week cycle of SD. I will then run 20mg Nolva and 6-oxo the week after that.

It is considered a "testosterone supplement", hence why the NCAA banned it.
 

Knowbull

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I agree, as low as 50 for prolonged period, yes it is a PH, it was the first PH available
 
sikdogg

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It WILL shut you down eventually. if you take it long enough.
DHEA is suppressive at high dose, just like any PH.
How do you know?? do you have any studies to prove this?? The link i posted above showed a study where participents took 1,600mg of DHEA per day for 28 days and didn't experience any suppression whatsoever. 400-500mg ED is considered a high dose, the test subjects were taking 3-4 time what's considered a high dose without any ill effects except some fat loss.
 

x_muscle

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Endocrine, neuroendocrine and behavioral effects of oral dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate supplementation in postmenopausal women.

Stomati M, Rubino S, Spinetti A, Parrini D, Luisi S, Casarosa E, Petraglia F, Genazzani AR.

Department of Reproductive Medicine and Child Development, University of Pisa, Italy.

Aging in women and men is characterized by a progressive decline of circulating dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) levels and its sulfate ester (DHEAS). The improvement of wellbeing described in postmenopausal women treated with DHEA suggests that this steroid may exert specific actions on the central nervous system (CNS). The postmenopausal period is associated with several neuroendocrine modifications. The decrease of circulating levels of beta-endorphin is considered a hormonal marker of those changes. The aim of the present study was to investigate neuroendocrine and behavioral effects of three months of DHEAS supplementation in postmenopausal women. Postmenopausal women (n = 22) were divided in three groups: the first group was treated with oral DHEAS (n = 8) (50 mg/day), the second treated with the same dose of oral DHEAS + transdermal estradiol (n = 8) (DHEAS) 50 mg/day, estradiol 50 micrograms/patch) and the third with transdermal estradiol alone (n = 6) (50 micrograms/day). Before and after 1, 2 and 3 months of therapy, the following circulating steroid and protein hormone levels were evaluated: DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione, testosterone, estrone, estradiol, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), beta-endorphin, growth hormone (GH) and cortisol, and a Kupperman score was performed. Before and after treatments, plasma beta-endorphin levels were evaluated in response to three neuroendocrine tests: (a) clonidine, an alpha 2-presynaptic adrenergic agonist (1.25 mg i.v.) (b) naloxone, an opioid receptor antagonist (4 mg i.v.) and (c) fluoxetine, a serotonin selective reuptake inhibitor (30 mg p.o.). In both groups of women treated with DHEAS, mean basal serum DHEA, DHEAS, androstenedione, and testosterone levels significantly increased after treatment, while no changes were shown in the group receiving estradiol alone. Serum estradiol, estrone, GH and plasma beta-endorphin levels significantly increased progressively for the three months of treatment, with higher levels for estrone and estradiol in subjects receiving estradiol alone or plus DHEAS. Serum SHBG, cortisol, and 17-hydroxyprogesterone did not show significant variations under any treatment. Serum LH and FSH levels showed a significant decrease in groups treated with estradiol alone or plus DHEAS at the second and third months. The Kupperman score showed that all treatments were associated with similar and progressive improvement. Before therapy clonidine, naloxone and fluoxetine stimuli failed to modify circulating beta-endorphin levels. After each of the treatments, the beta-endorphin response was completely restored and was similar, independent of the kind of therapy. Restoration of the beta-endorphin response to specific stimuli suggests that DHEAS and/or its active metabolites modulates the neuroendocrine control of pituitary beta-endorphin secretion, which may support the therapeutic efficacy of the DHEAS on behavioral symptoms.


Effect of oral DHEA on serum testosterone and adaptations to resistance training in young men.

Brown GA, Vukovich MD, Sharp RL, Reifenrath TA, Parsons KA, King DS.

Exercise Biochemistry Laboratory, Department of Health and Human Performance, Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa 50011, USA.

This study examined the effects of acute dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) ingestion on serum steroid hormones and the effect of chronic DHEA intake on the adaptations to resistance training. In 10 young men (23 +/- 4 yr old), ingestion of 50 mg of DHEA increased serum androstenedione concentrations 150% within 60 min (P < 0.05) but did not affect serum testosterone and estrogen concentrations. An additional 19 men (23 +/- 1 yr old) participated in an 8-wk whole body resistance-training program and ingested DHEA (150 mg/day, n = 9) or placebo (n = 10) during weeks 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8. Serum androstenedione concentrations were significantly (P < 0.05) increased in the DHEA-treated group after 2 and 5 wk. Serum concentrations of free and total testosterone, estrone, estradiol, estriol, lipids, and liver transaminases were unaffected by supplementation and training, while strength and lean body mass increased significantly and similarly (P < 0.05) in the men treated with placebo and DHEA. These results suggest that DHEA ingestion does not enhance serum testosterone concentrations or adaptations associated with resistance training in young men.



The effect of dehydroepiandrosterone supplementation to symptomatic perimenopausal women on serum endocrine profiles, lipid parameters, and health-related quality of life.

Barnhart KT, Freeman E, Grisso JA, Rader DJ, Sammel M, Kapoor S, Nestler JE.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Pennsylvania Medical Center, Philadelphia 19104, USA.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), an androgenic steroid hormone, exhibits an age-related decline. Perimenopausal women have only approximately 50% of peak DHEA levels. Despite limited scientific data, DHEA has gained recognition as a dietary supplement to reduce the symptoms of aging and improve well-being. This randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled trial examined the effects of 50 mg/day of oral DHEA supplementation, for 3 months, on 60 perimenopausal women with complaints of altered mood and well-being. Changes in the serum endocrine profile of women in the DHEA group were significantly greater than the placebo group, including a 242% [95% confidence interval (CI) +60.1, +423.9] increase in DHEAS, a 94.8% (95% CI +34.2, +155.4) increase in testosterone, and a 13.2% (95% CI -27.88, +0.5) decline in cortisol compared to baseline. Women receiving DHEA had a 10.1% (95% CI -15.0, -5.1) decline in high-density lipoprotein and an 18.1% (95% CI -32.2, -3.9) decline in Lp(a) from baseline, but these declines did not significantly differ from women who received placebo. Women receiving DHEA did not have any improvements significantly greater than placebo in the severity of perimenopausal symptoms, mood, dysphoria, libido, cognition, memory, or well-being. DHEA supplementation significantly effects the endocrine profile, may affect the lipid profile, but does not improve perimenopausal symptoms or well-being compared to placebo.



Biotransformation of oral dehydroepiandrosterone in elderly men: significant increase in circulating estrogens.

Arlt W, Haas J, Callies F, Reincke M, Hubler D, Oettel M, Ernst M, Schulte HM, Allolio B.

Department of Endocrinology, Medical University Hospital Wuerzburg, Germany.

The most abundant human steroids, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester DHEAS, may have a multitude of beneficial effects, but decline with age. DHEA possibly prevents immunosenescence, and as a neuroactive steroid it may influence processes of cognition and memory. Epidemiological studies revealed an inverse correlation between DHEAS levels and the incidence of cardiovascular disease in men, but not in women. To define a suitable dose for DHEA substitution in elderly men we studied pharmacokinetics and biotransformation of orally administered DHEA in 14 healthy male volunteers (mean age, 58.8 +/- 5.1 yr; mean body mass index, 25.5 +/- 1.5 kg/m2) with serum DHEAS concentrations below 4.1 micromol/L (1500 ng/mL). Diurnal blood sampling was performed on 3 occasions in a single dose, randomized, cross-over design (oral administration of placebo, 50 mg DHEA, or 100 mg DHEA). The intake of 50 mg DHEA led to an increase in serum DHEAS to mean levels of young adult men, whereas 100 mg DHEA induced supraphysiological concentrations [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; area under the curve (AUC) 0-12 h (mean +/- SD) for DHEA, 108 +/- 22 vs. 252 +/- 45 vs. 349 +/- 72 nmol/L x h; AUC 0-12 h for DHEAS, 33 +/- 9 vs. 114 +/- 19 vs. 164 +/- 36 micromol/L x h]. Serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone remained unchanged after DHEA administration. In contrast, 17beta-estradiol and estrone significantly increased in a dose-dependent manner to concentrations still within the upper normal range for men [placebo vs. 50 mg DHEA vs. 100 mg DHEA; AUC 0-12 h for 17beta-estradiol, 510 +/- 198 vs. 635 +/- 156 vs. 700 +/- 209 pmol/L x h (P < 0.0001); AUC 0-12 h for estrone, 1443 +/- 269 vs. 2537 +/- 434 vs. 3254 +/- 671 pmol/L x h (P < 0.0001)]. In conclusion, 50 mg DHEA seems to be a suitable substitution dose in elderly men, as it leads to serum DHEAS concentrations usually measured in young healthy adults. The DHEA-induced increase in circulating estrogens may contribute to beneficial effects of DHEA in men.
 

Knowbull

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X-muscle, great post! Sikdogg, critical thinking is good! I know from experience that it did shut me down after prolonged use. Maybe it wouldnt affect you the same way. Theres one way to find out; find the best you can find and ingest only DHEA for 6 months or more, then report on your subjective experiences. This has been a great thread!
 

judge-mental

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musch more intersting to me is its effects on HPA suppression not HPTA. HPA is much harder to normalize and is subject to constant bombardment by everday western life, stims, dieting, etc.
 

x_muscle

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i think the use of DHEA at low dose (100mg ed), with anti-estrogen like 6-oxo or formastan for short period of time like 6 weeks may be good idea. DHEA lowers cortisol levels, and increase testostrone levels, while aromatase inhibitors may normalize LH suppression. so you will get nice testostrone spike, and lower cotisol level which is good while cutting.
 
Alpha Dog

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i think the use of DHEA at low dose (100mg ed), with anti-estrogen like 6-oxo or formastan for short period of time like 6 weeks may be good idea. DHEA lowers cortisol levels, and increase testostrone levels, while aromatase inhibitors may normalize LH suppression. so you will get nice testostrone spike, and lower cotisol level which is good while cutting.

I don’t necessarily agree (although I understand this is extremely debatable). Of the studies you listed, the first was done on postmenopausal women. The second showed no changes in testosterone or estrogen, but did shown an increase in androstenedione. The third test was done on perimenopausal women. Finally, last study showed marked increase in estrogen levels in elderly men whom were DHEA deficient .

So, what does this all mean? Very few studies show an increase in total or free testosterone (especially in men). Very few showed any increase lean muscle mass. Some show an increase in estrogen, while others do not. Virtually all shown an increase in DHEA and androstendione. So, I think it is safe to say that DHEA supplementation by itself, especially at high doses, is probably not beneficial in young healthy men.

BUT, as mentioned above, DHEA supplementation does increase androstenedione levels (it is a direct precursor). When are high androstenedione levels benefical? Well, here’s the interesting part. While androstenedione supplementation usually did little for men with normal hormone levels, it did show tremendous benefit to hypogonadal men (see study below). So, if we can somehow get the DHEA to preferentially convert at a higher rate to androstenedione and not aromotize to estrogen, then we might have a very potent PCT supplementation stack. By definition, you are in a hypogonadal state during PCT. An anti-e such as Rebound XT or 6-OXO when stacked with DHEA should help prevent aramotazation. In which case, we may have a good muscle preserving stack for PCT.

So, the question becomes, is this going to slow recovery? Well, natural testosterone levels are already low. Estrogen levels should be kept in check with the anti-e. However, Androstenedione levels will be increased which (as an anabolic) will likely have some impact on restoring HTPA. But the studies indicate that testosterone levels changed little with DHEA supplementation. In addition, we know that androstenedione converts to test at a very low rate (in healthy men). This would indicate that it is only mildly suppressive. So, if we are augmenting our PCT regimen with an estrogen antagonist, I would hypothesize that you are still going to recover. So, rather than supplementing with an estrogen antagonist like tamoxifen for four weeks, maybe we should be extending it out too six weeks if we are employing high dose DHEA during PCT?

Just my thoughts……



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J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Feb;90(2):855-63. Epub 2004 Nov 02. Related Articles, Links

Delta-4-androstene-3,17-dione binds androgen receptor, promotes myogenesis in vitro, and increases serum testosterone levels, fat-free mass, and muscle strength in hypogonadal men.

Jasuja R, Ramaraj P, Mac RP, Singh AB, Storer TW, Artaza J, Miller A, Singh R, Taylor WE, Lee ML, Davidson T, Sinha-Hikim I, Gonzalez-Cadavid N, Bhasin S.

Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles, CA 90059, USA.

Previous studies of Delta 4-androstene-3,17-dione (4-androstenedione) administration in men have not demonstrated sustained increments in testosterone levels, fat-free mass (FFM), and muscle strength, and failure to demonstrate androstenedione's androgenic/anabolic effects has stifled efforts to regulate its sales. To determine whether 4-androstenedione has androgenic/anabolic properties, we evaluated its association with androgen receptor (AR) and its effects on myogenesis in vitro. Additionally, we studied the effects of a high dose of 4-androstenedione on testosterone levels, FFM, and muscle strength in hypogonadal men. We determined the dissociation constant (K(d)) for 4-androstenedione using fluorescence anisotropy measurement of competitive displacement of fluorescent androgen from AR ligand-binding domain. AR nuclear translocation and myogenic activity of androstenedione were evaluated in mesenchymal, pluripotent C3H10T1/2 cells, in which androgens stimulate myogenesis through an AR pathway. We determined effects of a high dose of androstenedione (500 mg thrice daily) given for 12 wk on FFM, muscle strength, and hormone levels in nine healthy, hypogonadal men. 4-Androstenedione competitively displaced fluorescent androgen from AR ligand-binding domain with a lower affinity than dihydrotestosterone (K(d), 648 +/- 21 and 10 +/- 0.4 nm, respectively). In C3H10T1/2 cells, 4-androstenedione caused nuclear translocation of AR and stimulated myogenesis, as indicated by a dose-dependent increase in myosin heavy chain II+ myotube area and up-regulation of MyoD protein. Stimulatory effects of 4-androstenedione on myosin heavy chain II+ myotubes and myogenic determination factor expression were attenuated by bicalutamide, an AR antagonist. Administration of 1500 mg 4-androstenedione daily to hypogonadal men significantly increased serum androstenedione, total and free testosterone, estradiol, and estrone levels and suppressed SHBG and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels. 4-androstenedione administration was associated with significant gains in FFM (+1.7 +/- 0.5 kg; P = 0.012) and muscle strength in bench press (+4.3 +/- 3.1 kg; P = 0.006) and leg press exercises (+18.8 +/- 17.3 kg; P = 0.045). 4-androstenedione is an androgen that binds AR, induces AR nuclear translocation, and promotes myogenesis in vitro, with substantially lower potency than dihydrotestosterone. 4-androstenedione administration in high doses to hypogonadal men increases testosterone levels, FFM, and muscle strength, although at the dose tested, the anabolic effects in hypogonadal men are likely because of its conversion to testosterone.
 

Knowbull

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Great posting here! This forum is truly the home of "Anabolicminds". Regarding DHEA and 6OXO for PCT; right now thats the only time I use it brief and low dose it works for the reasons previously stated at least for me.
 
sikdogg

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Great post Bow... from what i've read so far, DHEA just doesn't cause enough suppression (if at all) to be of much concern.
 
lifted

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Yeah, props bow. I think I'm gonna get back on DHEA along with some RXT. And then jusr run the RXT a week or so longer than the DHEA. Might get a little boost with this upcoming spring cut. God, I can't wait.... :rolleyes:
 
BOHICA

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I am going to run DHEA @ 50mg-100mg daily with 20mg SD for 3 weeks as a cycle. Then for my PCT I will be running it a week @ 250mg ED with Fen. Then the next week I will run 20mg of Nolva for 4 days then 6-oxo a full week to complete my PCT.
 

judge-mental

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i think the use of DHEA at low dose (100mg ed), with anti-estrogen like 6-oxo or formastan for short period of time like 6 weeks may be good idea. DHEA lowers cortisol levels, and increase testostrone levels, while aromatase inhibitors may normalize LH suppression. so you will get nice testostrone spike, and lower cotisol level which is good while cutting.
how does dhea lower cortisol? through its 7-keto metabolite? other mechanism?
 

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Bohica thats an interesting stack, please post results on that when and if you do it, thanks
 
kraftkid

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I just read a ten page article that referenced the benefits of DHEA for general health/anti-aging. It referenced over 120 different animal and human studes. It might be able on the Life Extension site.

Anyway, net take away was that in your late twenties, your natural production of DHEA starts to decrease and there was a corellation between low DHEA and a host of clinical conditions.

My key takeaway was that DHEA appears very beneficial, but more for general health, than any sports enhancement.
 

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just curious where you guys are getting your fen from, I get it pretty cheap (NOW brand), but I'm not sure on it's potency, also, if any of you guys get MD mag, they have a nice article on DHEA in it this month
 
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