Can I get Gyno after 2 years on TRT?

LaserGoPewPew

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The outer area (medial) of left pec has a knot underneath it ... its not my nipple its the area under and a little outside of the nipple... maybe half an inch deep. Sensitive and feels like a couple of marbles in there. Pressure doesnt feel good. Otherwise it doesnt really bother me. Never had gyno - no clue what to look for ... any feedback?
 
StarScream66

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That sounds like gyno. You need to go in and see your doctor ASAP and get on some Nolvadex to stop the gyno from growing. Gyno can help to anyone using any type of AAS during a cycle, so it's absolutely possible for you to get it.

You could also get Nolvadex from our RC/Peptides section and start using it immediately.
 
LaserGoPewPew

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That sounds like gyno. You need to go in and see your doctor ASAP and get on some Nolvadex to stop the gyno from growing. Gyno can help to anyone using any type of AAS during a cycle, so it's absolutely possible for you to get it.

You could also get Nolvadex from our RC/Peptides section and start using it immediately.
appreciate the advice ... i do have some Rx capsules and RC liquid designed to knock down the estrogen (exemstame?) I can't recall the name of the med off the top of my head. Would those help?

Im overdue on labs and will get blood drawn monday.
 
StarScream66

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appreciate the advice ... i do have some Rx capsules and RC liquid designed to knock down the estrogen (exemstame?) I can't recall the name of the med off the top of my head. Would those help?

Im overdue on labs and will get blood drawn monday.
Yeah they will absolutely help. See if you can figure out exactly what it is and we can help you with the dosage.
 

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Get bloods done asap and before you start taking an AI so you can see where your hormones are at. Assuming you're just on a TRT level dose of test right now, you can start with the exem at about 12.5mg per day. That's a pretty safe starting point until you get the bloods back. It has a half life of roughly 24hrs, so you need to dose it once per day. If you have Nolva, start that at 40mg per day. If you have the funds, go to the research chem forum and look up some Raloxifen. Studies show it works better than nolva at reducing gyno.

This is where I'd start until I got a professional opinion from a doctor.
 
LaserGoPewPew

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Get bloods done asap and before you start taking an AI so you can see where your hormones are at. Assuming you're just on a TRT level dose of test right now, you can start with the exem at about 12.5mg per day. That's a pretty safe starting point until you get the bloods back. It has a half life of roughly 24hrs, so you need to dose it once per day. If you have Nolva, start that at 40mg per day. If you have the funds, go to the research chem forum and look up some Raloxifen. Studies show it works better than nolva at reducing gyno.

This is where I'd start until I got a professional opinion from a doctor.
Appreciate the info

Would you know of any lab deals going on right now? Id like to get a complete blood profile and i know those tests can be pretty pricey
 
StarScream66

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You can always try this site. It's fairly cheap and does full panels. You just submit your order, go into a local Qwest or Labcorp, get a blood draw and they email you the results.

 
LaserGoPewPew

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Get bloods done asap and before you start taking an AI so you can see where your hormones are at. Assuming you're just on a TRT level dose of test right now, you can start with the exem at about 12.5mg per day. That's a pretty safe starting point until you get the bloods back. It has a half life of roughly 24hrs, so you need to dose it once per day. If you have Nolva, start that at 40mg per day. If you have the funds, go to the research chem forum and look up some Raloxifen. Studies show it works better than nolva at reducing gyno.

This is where I'd start until I got a professional opinion from a doctor.
thanks for info

i am just now seeing this

i backed off the test a bit and things seem to go down but now i can feel the knot. it doesnt hurt but i have no idea how long its been there.

would you suggest i get just bloodwork to measure estrogen or should i include other things like prolactin?

I have had "itchy nips" like 12 years ago when i took superdrol. that was strange. felt like ants all over my nip tips. this current situation doesn't bother me unless something presses up against me/my pec. and its more "underneath everything" which is different as well
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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thanks for info

i am just now seeing this

i backed off the test a bit and things seem to go down but now i can feel the knot. it doesnt hurt but i have no idea how long its been there.

would you suggest i get just bloodwork to measure estrogen or should i include other things like prolactin?

I have had "itchy nips" like 12 years ago when i took superdrol. that was strange. felt like ants all over my nip tips. this current situation doesn't bother me unless something presses up against me/my pec. and its more "underneath everything" which is different as well
You should have immediately started on Nolvadex months ago. Go right now and buy some Nolva from MA Labs and run it at 40mg/day at least.


If you can afford the blood tests and want to spend the money, you can test for estrogen, prolactin, and progesterone.
 
LaserGoPewPew

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You should have immediately started on Nolvadex months ago. Go right now and buy some Nolva from MA Labs and run it at 40mg/day at least.


If you can afford the blood tests and want to spend the money, you can test for estrogen, prolactin, and progesterone.
i am pretty sure i have nolva on hand ... i bought a ton of RC preventatives about a year about.

i also have some leftover anastrozole (0.125mg) and some RC exemestane from PRE ... its prob a year old as well. maube 18 months
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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i am pretty sure i have nolva on hand ... i bought a ton of RC preventatives about a year about.

i also have some leftover anastrozole (0.125mg) and some RC exemestane from PRE ... its prob a year old as well. maube 18 months
I don't know the dosages for either of those drugs, so you're going to have to do a little research. But you need to start taking them IMMEDIATELY!



 
LaserGoPewPew

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BennyMagoo79

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you sure its not an issue with pec minor? I get knots in the same spot, usually towards the end of a heavy push cycle, but they can be massaged out with a gun.
 
LaserGoPewPew

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you sure its not an issue with pec minor? I get knots in the same spot, usually towards the end of a heavy push cycle, but they can be massaged out with a gun.
it's not a knot from working out ... but i do appreciate the info

it's kind of hard to explain. i am a pretty lean guy and have never had much body fat and i guess i have always thought only those predisposed to higher BF % are the guys that get gyno ... also i always envisioned gyno being like a "weiner nipple" and your nip just growing out of control (not sure where that came from, its just how i assumed it would be)

so back to the knot ... if you look down at your left nip its just to the left of the aeola and like half an inch deep ... feels like it would be in the spot where mammary tissue would be

also it doesn't ache or hurt but is slightly sensitive to moderate pressure. i really don't notice it until something presses against it ... i am making an assumption about it being gyno
 
KvanH

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it's not a knot from working out ... but i do appreciate the info

it's kind of hard to explain. i am a pretty lean guy and have never had much body fat and i guess i have always thought only those predisposed to higher BF % are the guys that get gyno ... also i always envisioned gyno being like a "weiner nipple" and your nip just growing out of control (not sure where that came from, its just how i assumed it would be)

so back to the knot ... if you look down at your left nip its just to the left of the aeola and like half an inch deep ... feels like it would be in the spot where mammary tissue would be

also it doesn't ache or hurt but is slightly sensitive to moderate pressure. i really don't notice it until something presses against it ... i am making an assumption about it being gyno
A lot of information on gyno can be found by Googling (in case you haven't already done that). Also pics would help for anyone to help you. Just chiming in with my .02$
 
LaserGoPewPew

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A lot of information on gyno can be found by Googling (in case you haven't already done that). Also pics would help for anyone to help you. Just chiming in with my .02$
appreciate the reply

thats the thing ... sharing a pic with the board wouldnt help in my opinon. you cant see anything. i wasn't even aware anything was going on until i brushed up against something and put some pressure on my pec
 
Whisky

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START TAKING THE ANTI-ESTROGENS!!!
you appreciate that if a hard knot as already formed then an ai will not reverse it. An ai will prevent it worsening but it sounds like this is fully formed.

a serm (ralox would be my suggestion, nolva is also used) is the only drug based way to potentially reduce it)

I know you mentioned nolva further up the thread but the statement you just made (based on what he told you he had on hand) is suggesting he start slamming adex and asin. That’s absolutely not right. He should take the dose needed for estrogen control (same as if he didn’t have what might or might not be gyno - I’m not sure it is at all).

driving his estrogen into the ground is wrong.

a ralox gyno reversal procedure is the sensible approach, a serm plus a normal ai dose is the course of action for already formed gyno
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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you appreciate that if a hard knot as already formed then an ai will not reverse it. An ai will prevent it worsening but it sounds like this is fully formed.

a serm (ralox would be my suggestion, nolva is also used) is the only drug based way to potentially reduce it)

I know you mentioned nolva further up the thread but the statement you just made (based on what he told you he had on hand) is suggesting he start slamming adex and asin. That’s absolutely not right. He should take the dose needed for estrogen control (same as if he didn’t have what might or might not be gyno - I’m not sure it is at all).

driving his estrogen into the ground is wrong.

a ralox gyno reversal procedure is the sensible approach, a serm plus a normal ai dose is the course of action for already formed gyno

Well, you might be right. But it will stop whatever he's got from forming further. If he doesn't start something, his nipples will start developing milk ducts and he will have to get surgery to reverse his gyno. Driving estrogen into the ground in this case is absolutely necessary.

He does need a SERM though to help reduce/reverse the gyno. It's going to be a very high dosage though.
 
Whisky

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Well, you might be right. But it will stop whatever he's got from forming further. If he doesn't start something, his nipples will start developing milk ducts and he will have to get surgery to reverse his gyno. Driving estrogen into the ground in this case is absolutely necessary.

He does need a SERM though to help reduce/reverse the gyno. It's going to be a very high dosage though.
re read his first post - it’s already a hard knot (like a marble). Gyno forming feels like a soft putty.

then read the post from @KvanH.

IF (and we don’t know for sure so please stop giving advice like we do) it’s gyno then a serm is all that’s required (as the OP indicated above he’s not blasting gear and has backed off the test so he’s at normal levels) to try and reverse it.

as I suggested (which seems to also be the suggestion of Derek MPMD) ralox would be the best option.

driving his estrogen into the ground is a ridiculous suggestion.

he should go to a doctor and check what it is first. Then use a reversal protocol with a serm if it is gyno

over reacting to something that’s already formed isn’t the approach

if it was just starting to form whilst on cycle then your suggestion to use an ai immediately would appropriate, but that’s not the situation so your simply wrong.
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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re read his first post - it’s already a hard knot (like a marble). Gyno forming feels like a soft putty.
That's not necessarily true. Gyno can absolutely form as a hard lump under the nipple.

You may have gynecomastia in one or both breasts. It may start as a lump or fatty tissue beneath the nipple, which may be sore. The breasts often get larger unevenly.

then read the post from @KvanH.

IF (and we don’t know for sure so please stop giving advice like we do) it’s gyno then a serm is all that’s required (as the OP indicated above he’s not blasting gear and has backed off the test so he’s at normal levels) to try and reverse it.

as I suggested (which seems to also be the suggestion of Derek MPMD) ralox would be the best option.
It's absolutely gyno. If you develop a hard lump under the nipple that's gyno. Unless he's having breast cancer, which does happen in men, but it's unlikely.

driving his estrogen into the ground is a ridiculous suggestion.
I completely disagree.

he should go to a doctor and check what it is first. Then use a reversal protocol with a serm if it is gyno

over reacting to something that’s already formed isn’t the approach

if it was just starting to form whilst on cycle then your suggestion to use an ai immediately would appropriate, but that’s not the situation so your simply wrong.
I agree with this, but a regular IM doctor is not going to know to prescribe gyno. He'll probably recommend surgery for the procedure. He more than likely needs to see an endocrinologist.
 
Whisky

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That's not necessarily true. Gyno can absolutely form as a hard lump under the nipple.






It's absolutely gyno. If you develop a hard lump under the nipple that's gyno. Unless he's having breast cancer, which does happen in men, but it's unlikely.



I completely disagree.



I agree with this, but a regular IM doctor is not going to know to prescribe gyno. He'll probably recommend surgery for the procedure. He more than likely needs to see an endocrinologist.
claiming that it’s absolutely gyno based on a fucking brief description from someone is the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever claimed.

I very high doubt your a doctor, given that you’ve never posted any picture/video of yourself or logged any cycle you’ve run we don’t even know if you’ve ever even taken gear yourself and yet here you are telling some guy on the internet he definitely has gyno and to drive his estrogen into the ground.

you claim you want help people by passing on your (often questionable) steroid and associated drug knowledge but you appear unable to accept that you can ever possibly be wrong just because you can find a link to a tenuous study to back up what you are saying.

ii can post up links to stuff saying the earth is flat and bill gates is about to use a microchip to make us all but the latest Microsoft gadgets but it doesn’t make it true.

the guy has a lump, after 2 years on trt you can not say for sure that is suddenly gyno. Anyone is better being safe than sorry and getting it checked properly you absolute weapon.
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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claiming that it’s absolutely gyno based on a fucking brief description from someone is the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever claimed.

I very high doubt your a doctor, given that you’ve never posted any picture/video of yourself or logged any cycle you’ve run we don’t even know if you’ve ever even taken gear yourself and yet here you are telling some guy on the internet he definitely has gyno and to drive his estrogen into the ground.

you claim you want help people by passing on your (often questionable) steroid and associated drug knowledge but you appear unable to accept that you can ever possibly be wrong just because you can find a link to a tenuous study to back up what you are saying.

ii can post up links to stuff saying the earth is flat and bill gates is about to use a microchip to make us all but the latest Microsoft gadgets but it doesn’t make it true.

the guy has a lump, after 2 years on trt you can not say for sure that is suddenly gyno. Anyone is better being safe than sorry and getting it checked properly you absolute weapon.
You are completely overreacting. I'm not a doctor, but I've had gyno and I can tell you from personal experience it was a hard lump.

But, if you think I'm a total fraud, then put me on ignore and you won't have to read my posts anymore.
 
Whisky

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You are completely overreacting. I'm not a doctor, but I've had gyno and I can tell you from personal experience it was a hard lump.

But, if you think I'm a total fraud, then put me on ignore and you won't have to read my posts anymore.
your hard lump was gyno so every other single instance of that must be right?

that’s what you are saying. Having a step back and think about how moronic that sounds
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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your hard lump was gyno so every other single instance of that must be right?

that’s what you are saying. Having a step back and think about how moronic that sounds
Dude, I'm done talking to you in this thread. You question my legitimacy, you question my intelligence, you question whether or not I'm frauding people with my posts. I'm not going to waste the time posting my entire history of my AAS knowledge and usage just to prove to you that what I have to say is not misinformation.

Information about gyno has been passed down for years through bodybuilders who have had it and successfully stopped it and treated it. The first step to stopping gyno is taking anti-estrogens. That's just basic knowledge. If you want to question why he has a lump under his nipple after doing an AAS cycle or being on an AAS cycle then I will just say your knowledge of gyno is severely lacking.

But, I agree he should see a doctor about it.

 
Whisky

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Dude, I'm done talking to you in this thread. You question my legitimacy, you question my intelligence, you question whether or not I'm frauding people with my posts. I'm not going to waste the time posting my entire history of my AAS knowledge and usage just to prove to you that what I have to say is not misinformation.

Information about gyno has been passed down for years through bodybuilders who have had it and successfully stopped it and treated it. The first step to stopping gyno is taking anti-estrogens. That's just basic knowledge. If you want to question why he has a lump under his nipple after doing an AAS cycle or being on an AAS cycle then I will just say your knowledge of gyno is severely lacking.

But, I agree he should see a doctor about it.

you make it very easy to question your intelligence when you post garbage.

the subject title is that he’s on trt and infers he’s suddenly got gyno (not that it’s occurred during a blast/cycle) - did you miss that genius?

obviously a lump forming behind a nipple on a blast is likely to be gyno. But based on the info here that doesn’t sound like it was the situation now does it.

you also appear to have missed the fact (despite you being one of the first responders to the original post) that this was a hard knot 4 months ago. If you had any understanding of gyno you would now that if it is then it’s already formed. At this point the options are different to when it is forming.

rather than making grand statement like ‘drive your estrogen into the ground’ I actually (along with others) suggested a proper reversal protocol.

stop trolling and start doing some learning
 
BennyMagoo79

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Yeah, can't see how trashing estro levels at this point is going to do any good.

If it was me, I'd run a small dose of exem from now on (like maybe 12.5mg per week based on personal experience) and give that chemical reversal protocol a go. If that doesn't work, off to the doctor for his advice. I'd also start getting regular blood work to get estro in ideal range.
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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claiming that it’s absolutely gyno based on a fucking brief description from someone is the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever claimed.

I very high doubt your a doctor, given that you’ve never posted any picture/video of yourself or logged any cycle you’ve run we don’t even know if you’ve ever even taken gear yourself and yet here you are telling some guy on the internet he definitely has gyno and to drive his estrogen into the ground.
I never claimed to be a doctor. Further, there is absolutely nothing wrong with driving your estrogen into the ground. To get rid of my gyno I took 80mg a day of Nolvadex for about a month. Sure, my joints hurt, but beyond that, there were no ill effects.

you claim you want help people by passing on your (often questionable) steroid and associated drug knowledge but you appear unable to accept that you can ever possibly be wrong just because you can find a link to a tenuous study to back up what you are saying.
Ouch. I always try and back up what I say with a study if someone questions it, but to say I'm unable to say I'm wrong and then start throwing out BS articles to prove my point? That one hurts. Quite insulting, if I must say, but I won't insult you back. I try and make my arguments as civil as possible and don't start accusing people of trying to further an argument by illict means. I don't question you when you post anecdotal evidence with no backup studies.

I agree I have strong opinions, but I always try and back them up with evidence. If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to post it

ii can post up links to stuff saying the earth is flat and bill gates is about to use a microchip to make us all but the latest Microsoft gadgets but it doesn’t make it true.
Now you're just being ridiculous. I'm using PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS, not some article from Alex Jones website.
That's not to say peer review is the end all be all, but it's the best we've got in terms of evidence based information.

It seems you're just mad because you can't articulate your point so now you're just insulting me. If you have something you disagree with me on, you are more than welcome to argue your point with me. But you're not going to insult me to back away from it. Why not try posting some articles to back up your points?

the guy has a lump, after 2 years on trt you can not say for sure that is suddenly gyno. Anyone is better being safe than sorry and getting it checked properly you absolute weapon.
We both agreed the guy should see a doctor. But let's be serious here for a second. The guy is on testosterone and you don't think it's gyno? What else could it be? :ROFLMAO:

OP never told us what else he's on or if he started any new supplementation or medication, so we can only guess based on the information he provided.

you make it very easy to question your intelligence when you post garbage.

the subject title is that he’s on trt and infers he’s suddenly got gyno (not that it’s occurred during a blast/cycle) - did you miss that genius?
You are clearly misinformed on gynecomastia and I suggest you go do some more research before posting anything more here. You seem to be of the opinion that making this guy's estrogen level to zero is going to drop him dead or something.

obviously a lump forming behind a nipple on a blast is likely to be gyno. But based on the info here that doesn’t sound like it was the situation now does it.
Ok, so what are we arguing about exactly? It doesn't sound like the situation now? How so? You don't think you can get gyno from long term testosterone usage? That's ALWAYS a possibility. Just like you can start losing your hair, or the size of your prostate can increase. It doesn't always happen overnight.

you also appear to have missed the fact (despite you being one of the first responders to the original post) that this was a hard knot 4 months ago. If you had any understanding of gyno you would now that if it is then it’s already formed. At this point the options are different to when it is forming.
rather than making grand statement like ‘drive your estrogen into the ground’ I actually (along with others) suggested a proper reversal protocol.
What, prey tell, is a "proper reversal protocol"?

stop trolling and start doing some learning
No one here is trolling besides you, making absurd statements and ad hominem/strawman attacks against me.

Here, I'm not going through these, because you should really read some and "do some learning" yourself.





 

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Whisky

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I never claimed to be a doctor. Further, there is absolutely nothing wrong with driving your estrogen into the ground
nope, nothing wrong with that at all starscream


‘A growing body of evidence now also supports a critical role for estrogens in metabolic regulation in men. Recent data from clinical intervention studies indicate that estradiol may be a stronger determinant of adiposity than testosterone in men, and even short-term estradiol deprivation contributes to fat mass accrual

‘estradiol has been reproducibly shown to modulate cellular differentiation, survival, and chemokine and cytokine production in both lymphocytes and myeloid cells.

‘over the past decade clinical evidence has compellingly demonstrated the men undergoing ADT are at substantially higher risk of increased adiposity, insulin resistance, T2DM, and cardiovascular disease


as for a proper reversal protocol, it was already posted above by @KvanH - I’m not going to repost it, just read what has already been provided (where incidentally someone who is well researched and respected in this area also suggests that slamming a load of ai isn’t the way to go).
 
Whisky

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😂😂😂

almost as if Derek at MPMD is listening this recent podcast covers an amusing story first but then talks about gyno management (guess what, using Ralox and not crushing your e due to the negative health impacts are the takeaway)


Also, that last link (I didn’t bother with the others after that one) literally says that ‘no drugs presently available can treat gyno and surgery is the only solution’ - so you are posting things which quite literally contradict your supposed intelligence on the subject? Impressive
 
KvanH

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😂😂😂

almost as if Derek at MPMD is listening this recent podcast covers an amusing story first but then talks about gyno management (guess what, using Ralox and not crushing your e due to the negative health impacts are the takeaway)


Also, that last link (I didn’t bother with the others after that one) literally says that ‘no drugs presently available can treat gyno and surgery is the only solution’ - so you are posting things which quite literally contradict your supposed intelligence on the subject? Impressive
He's a pigeon
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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nope, nothing wrong with that at all starscream
Please check your PMs.


‘A growing body of evidence now also supports a critical role for estrogens in metabolic regulation in men. Recent data from clinical intervention studies indicate that estradiol may be a stronger determinant of adiposity than testosterone in men, and even short-term estradiol deprivation contributes to fat mass accrual

‘estradiol has been reproducibly shown to modulate cellular differentiation, survival, and chemokine and cytokine production in both lymphocytes and myeloid cells.

‘over the past decade clinical evidence has compellingly demonstrated the men undergoing ADT are at substantially higher risk of increased adiposity, insulin resistance, T2DM, and cardiovascular disease
I agree, estrogen is very important. Estrogen is important for sexual function, as well as many other benefits while on a cycle. However, all that goes out the window when you have gyno. This is not something you're doing for more than 4-6 weeks. So, none of the info you posted about is the slightest bit relevant when it comes to what I'm talking about. If you're taking an anti-estrogen for 4-6 weeks while you get rid of your gyno, you're not having cardiovascular issues, problems with lymphocyte production and all the other benefits you mentioned. Because your estrogen is only suppressed for a short window, you're not going to endanger your health longterm.

We all know testosterone and DHT are very beneficial for male health, but when your prostate becomes enlarged or you are at serious risk for prostate cancer, you aren't put on finasteride or dutasteride, you are put on full blown anti-androgens. It's like a SERM for androgens. They're still floating around, but they are blocked from being attached to the receptor site. Men go on this for decades.

Not having slightly higher than normal or even at normal estrogen levels for a short period is not going to negatively effect your health.

as for a proper reversal protocol, it was already posted above by @KvanH - I’m not going to repost it, just read what has already been provided (where incidentally someone who is well researched and respected in this area also suggests that slamming a load of ai isn’t the way to go).
Was that the post about raloxifene? I don't know a lot about this drug, admittedly, and I'll have to study it some more. But the reference used in the article he posted had to do with prepubescent boys, not anabolic steroid induced gyno, or even weight trained athletes, or males about 20 or 30 or any other range other than ~9-13 years old. Admittedly, if that's all the evidence for the article I'd say it's not very good.

However, that doesn't mean it doesn't work for gyno. I'll have to do some more reading about it before I make up my mind about it.

If it was another post, please link me to it because I must have missed it.

😂😂😂

almost as if Derek at MPMD is listening this recent podcast covers an amusing story first but then talks about gyno management (guess what, using Ralox and not crushing your e due to the negative health impacts are the takeaway)
Like I said, I don't know a lot about raloxifene, but maybe it is a miracle cure.

Also, that last link (I didn’t bother with the others after that one) literally says that ‘no drugs presently available can treat gyno and surgery is the only solution’ - so you are posting things which quite literally contradict your supposed intelligence on the subject? Impressive
Unfortunately, the opinion of many medical professionals is that gyno can only be treated with surgery. Many IM doctors will refer you to a surgeon if you tell them about it. That's just the way it is and some people's opinions.

There are also some people with gyno that need surgery because that's the only thing that will fix the issue. Once you start developing hardening of the nipples and develop hard knots underneath that won't go away, surgery is the only option. Also, if your estrogen (and maybe prolactin/progesterone) levels are high enough, you'll start developing female sex characteristics in the male breast tissue, like a transgender person. Some people develop milk ducts and start to lactate.

 
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LaserGoPewPew

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Get bloods done asap and before you start taking an AI so you can see where your hormones are at. Assuming you're just on a TRT level dose of test right now, you can start with the exem at about 12.5mg per day. That's a pretty safe starting point until you get the bloods back. It has a half life of roughly 24hrs, so you need to dose it once per day. If you have Nolva, start that at 40mg per day. If you have the funds, go to the research chem forum and look up some Raloxifen. Studies show it works better than nolva at reducing gyno.

This is where I'd start until I got a professional opinion from a doctor.
you like the exem at 12.5 per day or EOD?
 
KvanH

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you like the exem at 12.5 per day or EOD?
Both sound high for a trt dose of test, even though aromatization and AI need is individual. Unless you have high E that needs to be brought down quickly, but we don't know that. Without knowing T and E levels I think 12.5 mg twice a week is more sensible.
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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you like the exem at 12.5 per day or EOD?
Are you going to see a doctor or just get labs done? If I were you, I would talk to my IM/personal physician and ask for a referral for an endocrinologist immediately. You need advice from a professional doctor who deals with this kind of thing, not random people on the internet.
 
KvanH

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Are you going to see a doctor or just get labs done? If I were you, I would talk to my IM/personal physician and ask for a referral for an endocrinologist immediately. You need advice from a professional doctor who deals with this kind of thing, not random people on the internet.
This is true. Seeing a doctor is allways best and endo in this case.
 
LaserGoPewPew

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Are you going to see a doctor or just get labs done? If I were you, I would talk to my IM/personal physician and ask for a referral for an endocrinologist immediately. You need advice from a professional doctor who deals with this kind of thing, not random people on the internet.
This is true. Seeing a doctor is always best and endo in this case.
Thanks for the info guys

I had bloodwork done earlier today via PrivateMD labs. I will post the results later this week when i receive them

If i need to see a doc I will for sure see one. Right now i want to see if there is a glaring spike in anything in the blood and then go from there ...
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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So, I did some more reading on Raloxifene and I see how it could be beneficial for inducing both estrogenic benefits and anti-estrogenic benefits.

Pharmacodynamics
Mechanism of action
Raloxifene is a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) and hence is a mixed agonist and antagonist of the estrogen receptor (ER) in different tissues.[4] It has estrogenic activity in some tissues, such as bone and the liver, and antiestrogenic activity in other tissues, such as the breasts and uterus.[4] Its affinity (Kd) for the ERα is approximately 50 pM, which is similar to that of estradiol.[15] Relative to estradiol, raloxifene has been reported to possess about 8 to 34% of the affinity for the ERα and 0.5 to 76% of the affinity for the ERβ.[21][22] Raloxifene acts as a partial agonist of the ERα and as a pure antagonist of the ERβ.[23][24] In contrast to the classical ERs, raloxifene is an agonist of the G protein-coupled estrogen receptor (GPER) (EC50 = 10–100 nM), a membrane estrogen receptor.[25][26]

Clinical effects
Raloxifene has antiestrogenic effects in the mammary glands in preclinical studies.[15] In accordance, raloxifene reduces breast density in postmenopausal women, a known risk factor for breast cancer.[27] It does not stimulate the uterus in postmenopausal women, and results in no increase in risk of endometrial thickening, vaginal bleeding, endometrial hyperplasia, or endometrial cancer.[28][15][20] At the same time, raloxifene has minimal antiestrogenic effect in the uterus in premenopausal women.[28] This may possibly be due to inadequate tissue exposure of the uterus to raloxifene in these estrogen-rich individuals.[28]

So, it sounds very promising - but we must remember that all of these studies were done in women who were generally premenopausal & postmenopausal women in ranges from late 30s to 60s, 70s. There have been studies on men, but most are not applicable to us - other than the study I see on prepubescent boys, there is one I quote below in increasing bone "remodeling" (not sure what that means) which would be most applicable to us and our situation.. The other studies on men were having to do with men with hypogonadism [A failure of the gonads, testes in men and ovaries in women, to function properly. Production of a man's testosterone and a woman's estrogen are inhibited. If the onset is before puberty, growth and sexual development may be affected. After puberty, there may be sexual difficulties, reduced fertility, and absence of menstruation. Treatments may include hormone replacement therapy and assisted reproduction] and acromegaly [Acromegaly is a disorder that results from excess growth hormone (GH) after the growth plates have closed. The initial symptom is typically enlargement of the hands and feet. There may also be an enlargement of the forehead, jaw, and nose.
Causes: Too much growth hormone
]. So, none of those would really apply to us or our situation.
Source: Google

The pharmacotherapy of male hypogonadism besides androgens PMID 25523084
Estrogens and selective estrogen receptor modulators in acromegaly PMID 27704479
Gender difference in the neuroendocrine regulation of growth hormone axis by selective estrogen receptor modulators PMID 22319035
Raloxifene treatment is associated with increased serum estradiol and decreased bone remodeling in healthy middle-aged men with low sex hormone levels PMID 15312253


The last one sounded the most applicable to what we're talking about, so I downloaded it and gave it a skim.


Raloxifene treatment is associated with increased serum estradiol and decreased bone remodeling in healthy middle-aged men with low sex hormone levels
Materials and Methods: Forty-three healthy eugonadal [Having healthily functioning gonads] men (mean age, 56 years; range, 49–70 years) were enrolled
in a randomized placebo-controlled, double-blind, two-sequence crossover study. The subjects received either
raloxifene 120 mg/day or placebo for 6 weeks, followed by a 2-month washout period, before crossing over. To
predict changes of urinary total deoxypyridinoline/creatinine on raloxifene treatment, we used a logistic regression
model to determine cut-off values of sex hormones for highest sensitivity and specificity.
Results: In the whole group, raloxifene treatment was associated with an increase in serum sex hormones, that is,
total testosterone (+13%, p < 0.01), bioavailable testosterone (+11%, p = 0.02), total estradiol (+11%, p < 0.002),
and bioavailable estradiol (+11%, p = 0.035)
, and with a decrease in serum osteocalcin (-13%, p < 0.05) and serum
total alkaline phosphatase (-6%, p < 0.05).
I've attached the study if anyone wants to read beyond the abstract. I don't know the price of raloxifene, so maybe someone can tell me how much it would cost to use 120mg/day.

I'd say that's why people are experiencing estrogen effects while still having the benefits of increased testosterone. It increases both bioavailable estrogen and testosterone.

You can read the rest of the pharmacology, like how it stimulates FSH, but suppresses LH (which would make it a poor choice for a PCT).

Raloxifene also decreases prolactin levels in postmenopausal women.[28] In men, raloxifene has been found to disinhibit the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis (HPG axis) and thereby increase total testosterone levels.[29][30][31][32] Due to the simultaneous increase in sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels however, free testosterone levels often remain unchanged in men during therapy with raloxifene.[29]
Source: Wikipedia

So, it's a very interesting compound that's having a lot of different effects on multiple pathways, including LH, FSH, SHBG, testosterone, estrogen and prolactin (not sure about progesterone). The next step is to look at the anecdotal reports of men who have tried this for gyno and reported back the results.

So, I hope those study results are good enough for you @Whiskey.
 

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KvanH

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So, I did some more reading on Raloxifene and I see how it could be beneficial for inducing both estrogenic benefits and anti-estrogenic benefits.




So, it sounds very promising - but we must remember that all of these studies were done in women who were generally premenopausal & postmenopausal women in ranges from late 30s to 60s, 70s. There have been studies on men, but most are not applicable to us - other than the study I see on prepubescent boys, there is one I quote below in increasing bone "remodeling" (not sure what that means) which would be most applicable to us and our situation.. The other studies on men were having to do with men with hypogonadism [A failure of the gonads, testes in men and ovaries in women, to function properly. Production of a man's testosterone and a woman's estrogen are inhibited. If the onset is before puberty, growth and sexual development may be affected. After puberty, there may be sexual difficulties, reduced fertility, and absence of menstruation. Treatments may include hormone replacement therapy and assisted reproduction] and acromegaly [Acromegaly is a disorder that results from excess growth hormone (GH) after the growth plates have closed. The initial symptom is typically enlargement of the hands and feet. There may also be an enlargement of the forehead, jaw, and nose.
Causes: Too much growth hormone
]. So, none of those would really apply to us or our situation.
Source: Google

The pharmacotherapy of male hypogonadism besides androgens PMID 25523084
Estrogens and selective estrogen receptor modulators in acromegaly PMID 27704479
Gender difference in the neuroendocrine regulation of growth hormone axis by selective estrogen receptor modulators PMID 22319035
Raloxifene treatment is associated with increased serum estradiol and decreased bone remodeling in healthy middle-aged men with low sex hormone levels PMID 15312253


The last one sounded the most applicable to what we're talking about, so I downloaded it and gave it a skim.


Raloxifene treatment is associated with increased serum estradiol and decreased bone remodeling in healthy middle-aged men with low sex hormone levels




I've attached the study if anyone wants to read beyond the abstract. I don't know the price of raloxifene, so maybe someone can tell me how much it would cost to use 120mg/day.

I'd say that's why people are experiencing estrogen effects while still having the benefits of increased testosterone. It increases both bioavailable estrogen and testosterone.

You can read the rest of the pharmacology, like how it stimulates FSH, but suppresses LH (which would make it a poor choice for a PCT).


Source: Wikipedia

So, it's a very interesting compound that's having a lot of different effects on multiple pathways, including LH, FSH, SHBG, testosterone, estrogen and prolactin (not sure about progesterone). The next step is to look at the anecdotal reports of men who have tried this for gyno and reported back the results.

So, I hope those study results are good enough for you @Whiskey.
There's plenty of anecdotal data on Ralox being the most effective serm for gyno protection and removal (not going to be successfull allways with any drugs). Ralox has the highest binding affinity to breast tissue out of all serms, that's why it's good for gyno. I think all serms act as an agonist on some tissue and antagonist on some. And yeah it's not a good choice for hpta restart and it's not used for it. 60 mg is the typical dose and it's not expensive.
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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Not readily on hand really. I used to read a lot about gyno reversal when I got some issues myself. I did a lot of Googling so I'm sure it can be found, but can't offer any links just now.
I did a cursory Google search for articles looking specifically for binding affinity for breast tissue, but was only able to find studies showing SERM estrogen receptor binding affinity.

I did come across the following study about which treatment for gyno caused by men being on antiandrogens, and they say tamoxifen was the best option, but later go on to say any SERM (ralox or tamoxifen) would be the best route. So, I don't know.


And I found this:

This open, observational study suggests that raloxifene may be a safe, well tolerated and effective therapeutic alternative for drug-induced or idiopathic gynaecomastia in men of all ages.
The most disappointing part of the article was this quote.

Surgical correction is considered the gold standard treatment. Although similar to pharmacological interventions, surgical correction has been tested only in case series and not in randomized trials. Published case series demonstrates clinical success with cosmetic, symptomatic, and psychological improvements with minimal adverse effects.

This study from 2020 didn't mention raloxifene as a treatment option, but Clomid, Nolvadex, and something I've only read about, but never heard of, an AAS called Danazol. This is apparently a very weak androgen, but a strong anti-estrogen that also reduces LH and FSH.


Clomiphene, [31] an antiestrogen, can be administered on a trial basis at a dose of 50-100 mg per day for up to 6 months. Approximately 50% of patients achieve partial reduction in breast size, and approximately 20% of patients note complete resolution. Adverse effects, while rare, include visual problems, rash, and nausea.

Tamoxifen, an estrogen antagonist, is effective for recent-onset and tender gynecomastia when used in doses of 10-20 mg twice daily. [32] Up to 80% of patients report partial to complete resolution. Tamoxifen is typically used for 3 months before referral to a surgeon. Nausea and epigastric discomfort are the main adverse effects. [34]

Maybe you can have better luck finding it with some different keywords than I did. I tried searching for "best serm for gynecomastia" and "highest binding affinity of breast tissue for serms" and those are pretty much the results I got.
 
LaserGoPewPew

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I did a cursory Google search for articles looking specifically for binding affinity for breast tissue, but was only able to find studies showing SERM estrogen receptor binding affinity.

I did come across the following study about which treatment for gyno caused by men being on antiandrogens, and they say tamoxifen was the best option, but later go on to say any SERM (ralox or tamoxifen) would be the best route. So, I don't know.


And I found this:



The most disappointing part of the article was this quote.




This study from 2020 didn't mention raloxifene as a treatment option, but Clomid, Nolvadex, and something I've only read about, but never heard of, an AAS called Danazol. This is apparently a very weak androgen, but a strong anti-estrogen that also reduces LH and FSH.





Maybe you can have better luck finding it with some different keywords than I did. I tried searching for "best serm for gynecomastia" and "highest binding affinity of breast tissue for serms" and those are pretty much the results I got.


If we play "what if" and assume that prolactin is the culprit and its not E like most has assumed ... what would casue that? I am new to the gyno conversation. I didnt even realize prolactic could play a part in this
 
RIPDanDuchaine

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If we play "what if" and assume that prolactin is the culprit and its not E like most has assumed ... what would casue that? I am new to the gyno conversation. I didnt even realize prolactic could play a part in this
I had to look this up, because I actually don't know. I know prolactin plays a role in gyno formation in conjunction with progesterone.
Receptors for insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1), IGF-2 [8], luteinizing hormone, and human chorionic gonadotropin have also been detected in breast tissue [7, 8]. Estrogens and progesterone apparently require the presence of growth hormone and IGF-1 to exert their stimulatory action on the breast [9]. Hyperprolactinemia may indirectly cause gynecomastia by suppressing gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) release, resulting in central hypogonadism, although prolactin receptors have also been detected in benign and malignant breast tissue. At breast level, prolactin might modulate progesterone and androgen receptors expression (increasing the former and reducing the latter) [10]. Furthermore, prolactin stimulates epithelial cell proliferation only in the presence of estrogen and enhances lobuloalveolar differentiation only with concomitant progesterone [7].
Hyperprolactinemia is a condition in which a person has higher-than-normal levels of the hormone prolactin in the blood. The main function of prolactin is to stimulate breast milk production after childbirth, so high prolactin levels are normal in pregnancy.
Source: Google


Here's a really good article:

 

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Dude, I'm done talking to you in this thread. You question my legitimacy, you question my intelligence, you question whether or not I'm frauding people with my posts. I'm not going to waste the time posting my entire history of my AAS knowledge and usage just to prove to you that what I have to say is not misinformation.

Information about gyno has been passed down for years through bodybuilders who have had it and successfully stopped it and treated it. The first step to stopping gyno is taking anti-estrogens. That's just basic knowledge. If you want to question why he has a lump under his nipple after doing an AAS cycle or being on an AAS cycle then I will just say your knowledge of gyno is severely lacking.

But, I agree he should see a doctor about it.

the entire history of your aas knowledge consists of you reading a question on am...then googling it...and posting long ass boring studies and videos and your opinion based off of them. hell most of the time you post a product that you say is getting rave revues...but you havent tried it yet and dont know for sure if it works or not....according to your own words lol
 
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thanks for info

i am just now seeing this

i backed off the test a bit and things seem to go down but now i can feel the knot. it doesnt hurt but i have no idea how long its been there.

would you suggest i get just bloodwork to measure estrogen or should i include other things like prolactin?

I have had "itchy nips" like 12 years ago when i took superdrol. that was strange. felt like ants all over my nip tips. this current situation doesn't bother me unless something presses up against me/my pec. and its more "underneath everything" which is different as well
Go get some letro. Be good to go in a week.
 

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