Unanswered Bro split or Pull, push, legs for natural people

comandotech

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Friend please can you help me. I'm 34 years old. My goal is to gain the most muscle naturally. In the last 2 years I have been training with the split split bro by Ben Pakulski. a muscle 1 time a week, and 14- 16 sets for muscle. I have gained 32 poinds of weight. But now I have the doubt. Ben Pakulski in the incredible bulk says to train once a week. and in other books he says to train 2 times a week. Charles Glass says it is better to train once a week. Others John Meadows has training books (Push, Pull, Legs). Creeping Death II, Odin, Project Colossus, Please can you tell me that it is better for someone natural to gain maximun muscle. since I don't understand spoken English well. Thanks
 

Resolve10

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That’s some good progress congrats!

In general I feel higher frequency works better than single session per week.

Typically if you’ve been at 1 time per week go to 2, then build from there later as needed or only if necessary.

Lower session volume to account for total weekly volume (if you’ve been doing 12-15 sets in a session drop to 6 sets per 2 weekly sessions and build volume back up from there, don’t just add a second day with same amount).

8-10 sets per muscle group per session seems “optimal” so outside of specialization phases I’d prefer to increase frequency to hit higher total weekly volumes (so 10-20 total sets per muscle group split over 2 sessions per week would be my recommendation when moving from once a week training).

Always keep in mind this is “in general” and that different individuals will have different “bests” depending on a multitude of factors.
 
comandotech

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That’s some good progress congrats!

In general I feel higher frequency works better than single session per week.

Typically if you’ve been at 1 time per week go to 2, then build from there later as needed or only if necessary.

Lower session volume to account for total weekly volume (if you’ve been doing 12-15 sets in a session drop to 6 sets per 2 weekly sessions and build volume back up from there, don’t just add a second day with same amount).

8-10 sets per muscle group per session seems “optimal” so outside of specialization phases I’d prefer to increase frequency to hit higher total weekly volumes (so 10-20 total sets per muscle group split over 2 sessions per week would be my recommendation when moving from once a week training).

Always keep in mind this is “in general” and that different individuals will have different “bests” depending on a multitude of factors.
Thank you very much for your valuable help. I do not understand because the professional bodybuilder publish in magazines that they make bro split. I have never seen that publisten Pull, push, leg.
 

Resolve10

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Thank you very much for your valuable help. I do not understand because the professional bodybuilder publish in magazines that they make bro split. I have never seen that publisten Pull, push, leg.
Because most of those articles and routines they publish are nonsense.

They are for shock and awe and to make you feel like you’ve done something as opposed to things that are truly optimal.

It does make it tough to know what to follow though, but I haven’t picked up a magazine for training in an eternity.
 
believer

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The reason you see professional bodybuilders endorse one body part trained once a week, with insanely high volume, is because they’re anabolic 24 hours a day, seven days a week due to all the peds. Doesn’t work for a natural.
 
rodefeeh

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Yep, push pull legs, rest day if you need the recovery, repeat
 
Smont

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The reason you see professional bodybuilders endorse one body part trained once a week, with insanely high volume, is because they’re anabolic 24 hours a day, seven days a week due to all the peds. Doesn’t work for a natural.
I've seen plenty of natty guys make progress on splits like that. You can't say it doesn't work cus it does. Im not a fan of training that way either. But you can't deny results
 
jtmass

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Train a body part 2x a week. I personally enjoyed PHAT. You have strength days and Hypertrophy days which keeps it interesting and you don’t really burn out doing a lot of sets per body part a week.
 
The Solution

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The best program is the one you can:
- Stick to
- Find the best progress with
- Find ways to properly get enough rest/recovery and stimulate the muscle properly

Whether you find 2-3x a week body part training superior over 1x a week is simply personal preference. I have seen people who are natural or enhanced find merit going both ways. You just have to take notes, see how you adjust, and go from there. It is all trial and error. There are no one-size-fits-all programs for each individual out there.

I would suggest running one for 8 weeks
then running a different split for 8 weeks
Take notes, see where your strength/numbers are and then see what you got out of doing both and form a conclusion.
 
Smont

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The best program is the one you can:
- Stick to
- Find the best progress with
- Find ways to properly get enough rest/recovery and stimulate the muscle properly

Whether you find 2-3x a week body part training superior over 1x a week is simply personal preference. I have seen people who are natural or enhanced find merit going both ways. You just have to take notes, see how you adjust, and go from there. It is all trial and error. There are no one-size-fits-all programs for each individual out there.

I would suggest running one for 8 weeks
then running a different split for 8 weeks
Take notes, see where your strength/numbers are and then see what you got out of doing both and form a conclusion.
The best anything is the one you stick to. Consistency is the key to everything
 
comandotech

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I find push, legs, pull to be much more effective as far a recovery is concerned.
It makes it hard to give on your upper body two days in a row. I prefer legs in between.
Thank you brother
 
comandotech

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The best program is the one you can:
- Stick to
- Find the best progress with
- Find ways to properly get enough rest/recovery and stimulate the muscle properly

Whether you find 2-3x a week body part training superior over 1x a week is simply personal preference. I have seen people who are natural or enhanced find merit going both ways. You just have to take notes, see how you adjust, and go from there. It is all trial and error. There are no one-size-fits-all programs for each individual out there.

I would suggest running one for 8 weeks
then running a different split for 8 weeks
Take notes, see where your strength/numbers are and then see what you got out of doing both and form a conclusion.
Thanks brother
 

City Boy

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Progressive overload ,calorie surplus ,and rest are far more important than what split you do ,however I must admit that PPL has been a very good split for me.
 
Smont

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Another thing I have had good luck with is adding squats and leg press into the push or pull workout. Or do chest legs triceps then back shoulders biceps. 3 exercises for big muscles 2 exercise for small ones. 2 days on 1 day off and repeat. Sometimes I even go 3 or 4 days before a day off but if you like high frequency this worked good for me. I almost always weather on or off gear hit 3 muscles in a work out and do that workout 2 to 3 times a week
 

DS3317

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There’s no difference in how someone should on or off gear.
If you find a program that you’re getting stronger in week to week it’s working. Pick 8 most bang for your buck lifts and concentrate on those and get brutally strong in them.
 
jtmass

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There’s no difference in how someone should on or off gear.
If you find a program that you’re getting stronger in week to week it’s working. Pick 8 most bang for your buck lifts and concentrate on those and get brutally strong in them.
DC principle..
 

Iwilleattuna

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I always felt “too recovered” on bro splits and there’s a greater chance for error. I don’t think a body part needs a full week to recover necessarily. Another example; on a higher frequency routine, if you didn’t get the best session for chest. Whether that be weaknesses, lack of pump, etc, you won’t be waiting to hit it again and can possibly make up for a shitty session. I’m aware that this can Sometimes this can be a recovery issue, though.

legs / push / pull / arm, calves or delts hypertrophy. if I feel up to it / legs / push / pull / rest

Really fell in love with this routine.

I wonder how a Push(Chest,quads, triceps, delts)/ Pull(Lats, hamstrings, rear delts, biceps, traps) would be ? More frequency than a PPL style and seems as it would be easier to recovery from . push/pull/push/pull/rest/ repeat. Have also considered Upper/Lower/Upper/Lower/ rest / repeat.

Sometimes staying on the same routine gets tedious and one should aim to switch up the variable once in a while. Maybe not the exercises aimed for progression, but switching up a training style may aid in more progressive overload.

But I’d never switch up higher frequency training , op. Natty or enhanced

The main thing is intensity/form during sets. Making each set as hard as possible with tempo, weight, higher reps, failure, etc. effort is always number one
 
comandotech

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I always felt “too recovered” on bro splits and there’s a greater chance for error. I don’t think a body part needs a full week to recover necessarily. Another example; on a higher frequency routine, if you didn’t get the best session for chest. Whether that be weaknesses, lack of pump, etc, you won’t be waiting to hit it again and can possibly make up for a shitty session. I’m aware that this can Sometimes this can be a recovery issue, though.

legs / push / pull / arm, calves or delts hypertrophy. if I feel up to it / legs / push / pull / rest

Really fell in love with this routine.

I wonder how a Push(Chest,quads, triceps, delts)/ Pull(Lats, hamstrings, rear delts, biceps, traps) would be ? More frequency than a PPL style and seems as it would be easier to recovery from . push/pull/push/pull/rest/ repeat. Have also considered Upper/Lower/Upper/Lower/ rest / repeat.

Sometimes staying on the same routine gets tedious and one should aim to switch up the variable once in a while. Maybe not the exercises aimed for progression, but switching up a training style may aid in more progressive overload.

But I’d never switch up higher frequency training , op. Natty or enhanced

The main thing is intensity/form during sets. Making each set as hard as possible with tempo, weight, higher reps, failure, etc. effort is always number one
Thank you brother!!! Greetings from Colombia
 
Smont

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I see so many ppl asking what training routine they should do. One of the most fun things for me about working out is designing my routines. Learning what exercises are easy or hard. What I'm naturally good it and were I'm weak. What works and is pointless. Then going through my notes and making my routine better. Sometimes il sit at my desk with a someone's training routine. My log book from the past few months and a YouTube video about training all at the same time and try to come up with a routine for myself to try at a later date. I enjoy the programming. And honestly if you always incorporate 1 or 2 exercises for each body part that you know work then you can put a lot of effort in those and fool around with accessories after but as long as the weight or reps are going up on those first few lifts your gonna make some progress.

Just don't start changing up your routine every few weeks looking for the magic one.

If your not having fun it's very hard to stay motivated and consistent
 
big_jewels

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Think everyone above has covered it well, I like to use periodization and progressive overload with PPL, Full body or upper lower, depending on my schedule and how my body is healing.
 

Iwilleattuna

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Friend please can you tell me which of these supplements you recommend me to gain weight. laxogenin or epicatechin. Are they from the USA? And what was your experience? thank you
Yeah you may have to order online. You can find sourcesmany places for them now. I’d recommend either or . You can also combine laxo and epicat. I prefer Epicatechin. Epicatechin = pumps/fullness/insane endurance/ recomposition
Laxogenin = hard for me to tell what it does because it’s not a dramatic feeling , but I feel fuller/leaner when I take it
 

Andreflex7

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I hope this isnt an offensive question, but I am on TRT @ 39 years old. My Total Test levels stay in the 800s low 900s.

Can I benefit with this push, leg, pull method? I know 900s is not steriod level, but the upper range of normal.
 
Smont

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I hope this isnt an offensive question, but I am on TRT @ 39 years old. My Total Test levels stay in the 800s low 900s.

Can I benefit with this push, leg, pull method? I know 900s is not steriod level, but the upper range of normal.
Why would your test levels effect your training routine. Any routine will work
 

Andreflex7

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Why would your test levels effect your training routine. Any routine will work
I dont know. I just hear people talking about how if a person is on steroids (i.e., test levels in the upper 1000s) they can do anything and grow. Guys that are natural (i.e., below 1000 or more) can't do the amount of training that pros can bc of overtraining.

I guess Im wonder if being close to 1000 helps would allow for slightly more intense training. Am I making sense? haha sorry if confusing.
 
Smont

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I dont know. I just hear people talking about how if a person is on steroids (i.e., test levels in the upper 1000s) they can do anything and grow. Guys that are natural (i.e., below 1000 or more) can't do the amount of training that pros can bc of overtraining.

I guess Im wonder if being close to 1000 helps would allow for slightly more intense training. Am I making sense? haha sorry if confusing.
I train the same on and off cycle. I add some extra sets on cycle that's the only difference. And I dissagree that you can do anything and grow on cycle. I've seen tons of guys that are on gear that barely look like they lift. The most important part of your training is being consistent and not looking for a new routine every couple weeks. Pick a plan and stick with it for at least 8 to 12 weeks. If the numbers are still going up at week 12 keep it going
 
Carnivorecon

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A muscle only shows response to exercise for upto 48 hours after so any longer is detraining. I train full body every 2 or 3 days, 2 exercises per bodypart. I alternate between 5-8 rep strength workouts for myofibrillar growth and 12-15 rep sometimes more, pump based workouts. I build strength through motor unit and nervous system training with the low reps and the higher reps give a good pump with lots of lactic acid,
blood and nutrients encouraging sarcoplasmic growth. This stops me getting bored in the gym plus my joints are not getting beat up every session.
 

DS3317

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A muscle only shows response to exercise for upto 48 hours after so any longer is detraining. I train full body every 2 or 3 days, 2 exercises per bodypart. I alternate between 5-8 rep strength workouts for myofibrillar growth and 12-15 rep sometimes more, pump based workouts. I build strength through motor unit and nervous system training with the low reps and the higher reps give a good pump with lots of lactic acid,
blood and nutrients encouraging sarcoplasmic growth. This stops me getting bored in the gym plus my joints are not getting beat up every session.
This might look good on paper but in the real world the 48 hr thing doesn’t apply. Also a muscle isn’t detrained after 48hrs. If I demolish my legs and they are still extremely sore 4 days later they aren’t detrained they are still healing. I work muscles now once every 5-7 days and they are growing and getting stronger every workout. Any sooner than this and they aren’t at full capacity. I’ve also done everything 3x a week and 2x and Ive noticed no difference in growth.
 
Carnivorecon

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This might look good on paper but in the real world the 48 hr thing doesn’t apply. Also a muscle isn’t detrained after 48hrs. If I demolish my legs and they are still extremely sore 4 days later they aren’t detrained they are still healing. I work muscles now once every 5-7 days and they are growing and getting stronger every workout. Any sooner than this and they aren’t at full capacity. I’ve also done everything 3x a week and 2x and Ive noticed no difference in growth.
Hey man, whatever works for you is fine by me but its not on paper for me, its in the real world. You know every 5 days works for you because you tried it. So the takeaway is we all gotta try different programs until we find what works for our abilities, lifestyle, motivations etc.
 
ChocolateClen

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This might look good on paper but in the real world the 48 hr thing doesn’t apply. Also a muscle isn’t detrained after 48hrs. If I demolish my legs and they are still extremely sore 4 days later they aren’t detrained they are still healing. I work muscles now once every 5-7 days and they are growing and getting stronger every workout. Any sooner than this and they aren’t at full capacity. I’ve also done everything 3x a week and 2x and Ive noticed no difference in growth.
Works for you then go for it but for myself and my clients I’ve noticed at even if their legs aren’t 100% they still see more improvement than when I had them doing the bro splits. For most people it’s roughly (differs per person) 20-25 sets per muscle group per week that’s needed to see a large amount of growth. Other factors matter as well but 20-25 good quality high intensity sets is a lot to do in a day for most people, myself included.
 
ChocolateClen

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This might look good on paper but in the real world the 48 hr thing doesn’t apply. Also a muscle isn’t detrained after 48hrs. If I demolish my legs and they are still extremely sore 4 days later they aren’t detrained they are still healing. I work muscles now once every 5-7 days and they are growing and getting stronger every workout. Any sooner than this and they aren’t at full capacity. I’ve also done everything 3x a week and 2x and Ive noticed no difference in growth.
Works for you then go for it but for myself and my clients I’ve noticed at even if their legs aren’t 100% they still see more improvement than when I had them doing the bro splits. For most people it’s roughly (differs per person) 20-25 sets per muscle group per week that’s needed to see a large amount of growth. Other factors matter as well but 20-25 good quality high intensity sets is a lot to do in a day for most people, myself included.
 

Resolve10

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Works for you then go for it but for myself and my clients I’ve noticed at even if their legs aren’t 100% they still see more improvement than when I had them doing the bro splits. For most people it’s roughly (differs per person) 20-25 sets per muscle group per week that’s needed to see a large amount of growth. Other factors matter as well but 20-25 good quality high intensity sets is a lot to do in a day for most people, myself included.
I’d also note that there appears to be a cap to session training volume as well. So while “20” per week may be beneficial in two sessions it isn’t in one and that “10” may be the limit per session if training once per week.

“” since these numbers aren’t exact and may vary for a wide number of reasons.
 
EMPIREMIND

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Friend please can you help me. I'm 34 years old. My goal is to gain the most muscle naturally. In the last 2 years I have been training with the split split bro by Ben Pakulski. a muscle 1 time a week, and 14- 16 sets for muscle. I have gained 32 poinds of weight. But now I have the doubt. Ben Pakulski in the incredible bulk says to train once a week. and in other books he says to train 2 times a week. Charles Glass says it is better to train once a week. Others John Meadows has training books (Push, Pull, Legs). Creeping Death II, Odin, Project Colossus, Please can you tell me that it is better for someone natural to gain maximun muscle. since I don't understand spoken English well. Thanks
the split doesn’t matter as much as your ability to recover. If you can handle more frequency and higher volume, then do that, if not, dial back the frequency and volume so you can recovery optimally
 
Smont

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A muscle only shows response to exercise for upto 48 hours after so any longer is detraining. I train full body every 2 or 3 days, 2 exercises per bodypart. I alternate between 5-8 rep strength workouts for myofibrillar growth and 12-15 rep sometimes more, pump based workouts. I build strength through motor unit and nervous system training with the low reps and the higher reps give a good pump with lots of lactic acid,
blood and nutrients encouraging sarcoplasmic growth. This stops me getting bored in the gym plus my joints are not getting beat up every session.
Tell that to all the best bodybuilders in the world that hit everything 1x a week.
 
Carnivorecon

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Tell that to all the best bodybuilders in the world that hit everything 1x a week.
Tell em what exactly? Define best! Do you mean most successful, leanest, strongest or heaviest? Ronnie coleman hit everything twice a week so what about that? Phil heath hits everything twice also and many others but even so who cares. if they did it once a year or every 5 mins good for them, the fact is research shows that once a week is not the optimal frequency for most people, 2 or even 3 is thats just what the research says and what i know works for me and thats what i said, if you want to stay in the 90s with your bro split more power to ya, do your thing thats what i said in my previous comment people should find what works for them i dont need anyone to believe the same as me its not a doctrine its just sharing ideas and trying to help others
 
Smont

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Tell em what exactly? Define best! Do you mean most successful, leanest, strongest or heaviest? Ronnie coleman hit everything twice a week so what about that? Phil heath hits everything twice also and many others but even so who cares. if they did it once a year or every 5 mins good for them, the fact is research shows that once a week is not the optimal frequency for most people, 2 or even 3 is thats just what the research says and what i know works for me and thats what i said, if you want to stay in the 90s with your bro split more power to ya, do your thing thats what i said in my previous comment people should find what works for them i dont need anyone to believe the same as me its not a doctrine its just sharing ideas and trying to help others
Your not detraining a muscle after 2 days. And I prefer hitting everything 2 to 3 times a week. Most pros everything 1 x a week and most of them agree it's plenty if you hit the muscle hard enough. Don't have a meltdown over there
 
Carnivorecon

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Your not detraining a muscle after 2 days. And I prefer hitting everything 2 to 3 times a week. Most pros everything 1 x a week and most of them agree it's plenty if you hit the muscle hard enough. Don't have a meltdown over there
Too late im a puddle over here haha ok so saying you're detraining is perhaps a bit severe but lets just say you're not adapting to the stress of training after roughly 2 days instead but ffs don't hold to me that ok im just regurgitating info I've consumed at some time. Saying most pros do this or that i do not feel means a whole lot because its a falacious appeal to anonymous authority, i can say most pros drink engine oil but wheres the evidence, whos fact checking it and what else do they do besides train once a week (assuming they're being honest) that may influence the outcome. Also, i know its a cliche now but with the amount of gear they take they're in an anabolic stay 24/7 no matter what.
 

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Hey man, whatever works for you is fine by me but its not on paper for me, its in the real world. You know every 5 days works for you because you tried it. So the takeaway is we all gotta try different programs until we find what works for our abilities, lifestyle, motivations etc.
The 48 hours and the detraining is not real world.
Too late im a puddle over here haha ok so saying you're detraining is perhaps a bit severe but lets just say you're not adapting to the stress of training after roughly 2 days instead but ffs don't hold to me that ok im just regurgitating info I've consumed at some time. Saying most pros do this or that i do not feel means a whole lot because its a falacious appeal to anonymous authority, i can say most pros drink engine oil but wheres the evidence, whos fact checking it and what else do they do besides train once a week (assuming they're being honest) that may influence the outcome. Also, i know its a cliche now but with the amount of gear they take they're in an anabolic stay 24/7 no matter what.
its pretty easy to find out how most competitors train. It’s not some super secret thing. Also don’t regurgitate info, speak on what you actually know.
Gear or natural has never affected how I can train. I know a ton of natural competitors that train everything once a week. I go back and fourth from a Phil Hernon type split everything 3x, to DC, to more of a Dorian or Trevor Smith style. Tried Mountain Dog but it destroyed me. Right now I’m doing more of a Dorian Style. The main thing that will drive growth is progressive weights and food. Doesn’t matter if it’s 1x or 3x a week as long you can recover and add weights, reps, or both.
People should stop overthinking every little thing. Find the biggest guy you can with worst genetics who had to fight for every last lb of tissue and ask him how he did it and that’ll probably be some of the best info anyone can give you.
 

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