Back to the Lab: ZOO’s Comeback Log

Hyde

Legend
I believe @Hyde had a good low cost lab source?
I’ve had great experiences ordering tests for Quest at Ulta Lab Tests lately for more ala carte choices (like next week I am pulling a CBC, CMP, Lipids & TSH for $57), and PrivateMDLabs probably has some better pricing on very comprehensive packages that include thorough hormone testing (especially if you want ultra-sensitive estradiol).

There’s other ones out there too, but I haven’t found any with better pricing or packages than the above.
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
Has anybody running Metformin noticed a decrease in performance? I’ve heard that this is a side effect and I’ve been noticing some extra difficulty on my lifts since starting.
 

Kronic

Well-known member
Has anybody running Metformin noticed a decrease in performance? I’ve heard that this is a side effect and I’ve been noticing some extra difficulty on my lifts since starting.
metformin and berberine both seeming like a bad idea lately
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
I haven’t heard about berberine. Do tell.
Tbh im not worried about the Metformin sides or any performance hindrance. The benefits outweigh them in my case.
 

Hyde

Legend
Has anybody running Metformin noticed a decrease in performance? I’ve heard that this is a side effect and I’ve been noticing some extra difficulty on my lifts since starting.
I’ve definitely heard someone say they couldn’t take it before their morning training because they couldn’t keep up with fuel demands in training.

But also, not becoming diabetic from GH is kind of important as well!
 

Hyde

Legend
I haven’t heard about berberine. Do tell.
Tbh im not worried about the Metformin sides or any performance hindrance. The benefits outweigh them in my case.
Despite all of the general longevity stuff you read about Berberine, there’s a 2013 study showing that even 300mg of Berberine is sufficient to inhibit some enzymes that effect DNA’s ability to split apart, which is necessary for it to repair itself. So using Berberine may, in a dose dependent fashion, damage DNA, which could in turn cause cancer.

But Berberine has also been shown to help inhibit formation of cancer, and act to aid longevity in many fashions. So it’s a bit paradoxical, and in the end nobody knows for sure if it’s safe for very longterm use. More studies would be needed.

Metformin the only thing I’m aware of is don’t use if you have serious gut issues already, or if you don’t want the IGF1 hit (for someone not using exogenous GH), or plan to attempt having a child in coming months due to the rare potential for the baby to have genital abnormalities.
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
I guess what it boils down to is what is true of most things. That is, there is always a give and take. Thanks for updating my knowledge databank XD

Any familiarity with AOD-9604? Mostly, is it useful in addition to Frag or an alternative for it? AA has it in a huffing solution
 

Hyde

Legend
I guess what it boils down to is what is true of most things. That is, there is always a give and take. Thanks for updating my knowledge databank XD

Any familiarity with AOD-9604? Mostly, is it useful in addition to Frag or an alternative for it? AA has it in a huffing solution
I got nothing. Nasal is great because it’s convenient AF to administer (easier than a pill even IMO, since you don’t even need water), but my initial thoughts since you’re referencing Frag (with zero looking into it) is that delicate peptides aren’t going to make it well through nasal lining.

I’ve heard their nasal Noopept is the cat’s meow, on a barely related note.
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
I got nothing. Nasal is great because it’s convenient AF to administer (easier than a pill even IMO, since you don’t even need water), but my initial thoughts since you’re referencing Frag (with zero looking into it) is that delicate peptides aren’t going to make it well through nasal lining.

I’ve heard their nasal Noopept is the cat’s meow, on a barely related note.
Okay cool. That’s one of the concerns I had as well because I know growth and Frag are very sensitive compounds. Thank you as always for the input my good man. :)
 

Segansational

Well-known member
Someone talk to me about Noopept and benefits for lifting. Think I heard to use really only on occasion and on same lift for benefit? I've got some caps I've been sitting on for a while now.
 
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ZOO

Board Sponsor
Someone talk to me about Noopept and benefits for lifting. Think I heard to use really only on occasion and on same lift for benefit? I've got some caps I've been sitting on for a while now.
Let me know how you like it. I just put an order in with AA for more Stampede, GC-1, and I grabbed Selank to try. Anti anxiety and antidepressant is right up my ally and huffing it straight to the dome is perfect XD
 

Hyde

Legend
Someone talk to me about Noopept and benefits for lifting. Think I heard to use really only on occasion and on same lift for benefit? I've got some caps I've been sitting on for a while now.
Yeah Noopept is ideal for learning scenarios. You want to remember a lesson or something you’re reading, if you are doing mental exercises or brainwashing yourself (positive or negative), if you are working on technique on big lifts.

I think using it selectively preWO was a significant contributor in taking my squat up another level. You want to stack it with choline, something like Alpha GPC.
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
Yeah Noopept is ideal for learning scenarios. You want to remember a lesson or something you’re reading, if you are doing mental exercises or brainwashing yourself (positive or negative), if you are working on technique on big lifts.

I think using it selectively preWO was a significant contributor in taking my squat up another level. You want to stack it with choline, something like Alpha GPC.
Like say… Daft Pump by Vicious Labs that contains 500mg of Alpha GPC per scoop. Available at viciouslabs.net and lockoutsupplements.com :)
 

Smont

Legend
metformin and berberine both seeming like a bad idea lately
I completely disagree, I did see about the DNA damage over 2000mg berberine, ok, stay under 2000. It's a excellent tool. Also for all the people who keep talking about berberine and metformin slowing down muscle growth....

Not if your on steroids! It will enhance everything about your physique if your on steroids and gh. No shortage of huge jacked pro bodybuilders and just huge m************ in general that use metformin.

If you are on steroids and GH and you're afraid of metformin hindering your muscle growth you're doing yourself a huge Injustice because it's not affecting your muscle growth.

I know everyone's going to come out and beat this to death and bring up all these studies I don't care it's nonsense and there's no changing my mind lol. I know and know of too many gigantic mofos that use it and they all swear by it. And I've seen the difference it makes when someone adds it in for the first time at a hefty 2000mg per day dose as well.

Okay I'm done ranting
 

Smont

Legend
Despite all of the general longevity stuff you read about Berberine, there’s a 2013 study showing that even 300mg of Berberine is sufficient to inhibit some enzymes that effect DNA’s ability to split apart, which is necessary for it to repair itself. So using Berberine may, in a dose dependent fashion, damage DNA, which could in turn cause cancer.

But Berberine has also been shown to help inhibit formation of cancer, and act to aid longevity in many fashions. So it’s a bit paradoxical, and in the end nobody knows for sure if it’s safe for very longterm use. More studies would be needed.

Metformin the only thing I’m aware of is don’t use if you have serious gut issues already, or if you don’t want the IGF1 hit (for someone not using exogenous GH), or plan to attempt having a child in coming months due to the rare potential for the baby to have genital abnormalities.
If I had saw this post I wouldn't have made a rant.

👋👏👏👏👏

@Hyde always on top of his shiznit
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
UPDATE

This week was the first time trying something I haven’t done before… resistance training only 4 days per week with 2 weighted cardio only days. So M-Su it’ll be Upper, Legs, Cardio, Back, Upper, Off, Cardio.

I definitely felt much better training back this morning. Better energy and focus. I think part of this is due to the improved fasted blood glucose. Since starting Metformin I’ve slowly been waking up less tired feeling than how I had been.

Throwback Thursday!
 

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gphagan1

Well-known member
UPDATE

This week was the first time trying something I haven’t done before… resistance training only 4 days per week with 2 weighted cardio only days. So M-Su it’ll be Upper, Legs, Cardio, Back, Upper, Off, Cardio.

I definitely felt much better training back this morning. Better energy and focus. I think part of this is due to the improved fasted blood glucose. Since starting Metformin I’ve slowly been waking up less tired feeling than how I had been.

Throwback Thursday!
As you get older, those 4 day splits becomes your friend. Gotta have that rest now in my 50s. I used to have 1 1/2 to 2 hrs training 6 days a week 20 years ago, but man that would kill me now.
I think you’ll find you’ll still get a lot out of your training with less injuries. I’m a lot older than you, but that’s the immediate benefits I noticed.
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
As you get older, those 4 day splits becomes your friend. Gotta have that rest now in my 50s. I used to have 1 1/2 to 2 hrs training 6 days a week 20 years ago, but man that would kill me now.
I think you’ll find you’ll still get a lot out of your training with less injuries. I’m a lot older than you, but that’s the immediate benefits I noticed.
I appreciate you voicing that, bro. I’m 32 and will be your age in no time so longevity is on my mind. I suppose that’s the point of this log - creating a sustainable enhanced lifestyle with highest ROI. The extra rest day had such a good return that it’ll likely be a staple. Additionally, that is 50mg less of Anavar per week. It’s a two fer
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
Yesterday I made my final dose increase for Metormin. That is 2000mg per day. I take the first 500mg with my very first (post workout) meal and then another with the meal after that. I take another 1000mg with my last meal. I don’t know if it’s coincidental but I slept the best I’ve had in a while last night. Does high(er) blood sugar effect sleep? I imagine it could.
 

gphagan1

Well-known member
Yesterday I made my final dose increase for Metormin. That is 2000mg per day. I take the first 500mg with my very first (post workout) meal and then another with the meal after that. I take another 1000mg with my last meal. I don’t know if it’s coincidental but I slept the best I’ve had in a while last night. Does high(er) blood sugar effect sleep? I imagine it could.
I believe higher blood sugar can contribute to sleep apnea, which will definitely interfere with your sleep quality.
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
I believe higher blood sugar can contribute to sleep apnea, which will definitely interfere with your sleep quality.
That makes sense. I’ve been waking up feeling trashed af for a minute now so I hope this ends up being a solution.
 

Hyde

Legend
Also lower blood sugar makes you a bit tired. Generally always sleep a tad better with ALA or Berberine before bed (assuming they don’t cause reflux).
 

Kronic

Well-known member
if you do injectable L-carnitine, wouldn't that make the metformin not needed? or is everyone stacking them?
 
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Kronic

Well-known member
What? They’re radically different compounds. They really have no bearing on whether someone is using them together or not.
I think carnitine helps with getting the carbs to be used or something. I noticed it helped with blood sugar symptoms with mk-677. there's also this study where they stack them for fertility in women
 
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ZOO

Board Sponsor
Also lower blood sugar makes you a bit tired. Generally always sleep a tad better with ALA or Berberine before bed (assuming they don’t cause reflux).
What about dna damage…..



;)
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
I think carnitine helps with getting the carbs to be used or something. I noticed it helped with blood sugar symptoms with mk-677. there's also this study where they stack them for fertility in women
I think there is validity to injectable carnitine in conjunction with Metformin. I’d be hesitant to only use the former as I believe carnitine pertains to moving fatty acids or something. Don’t quote me lol. I do enjoy Stampede though so it looks like it’s both for me either way. Haha
 

Kronic

Well-known member
I think there is validity to injectable carnitine in conjunction with Metformin. I’d be hesitant to only use the former as I believe carnitine pertains to moving fatty acids or something. Don’t quote me lol. I do enjoy Stampede though so it looks like it’s both for me either way. Haha
I need to try stampede again. the formula looks better now
 

Hyde

Legend
I think carnitine helps with getting the carbs to be used or something. I noticed it helped with blood sugar symptoms with mk-677. there's also this study where they stack them for fertility in women
Carnitine actually spares muscle glycogen/glucose use by helping to mobilize & transport fatty acids to be used as cellular fuel, provided the energy demand is present from your activities.

Metformin helps with blood glucose lowering/management.

They are a great combo to improve an individual overall metabolically, but Carnitine for all it does shouldn’t really be viewed as a primary glucose management tool IMHO.
 

Majora23

New member
Alright, let’s start logging this log. After a bit of tinkering I think I have a training split I’ll give a whirl for while. Today was the first workout of the week. It consists of an upper body medley hitting chest, shoulders, triceps, and abs. This is generally the hardest area to train with my arm issue so I will follow a light weight, high rep scheme with frequency - I will do this workout on Mondays and Thursdays.

Just for fun I tossed 1ml of Stampede into each Pec. This was my first ever Pec injection. As much as the acetic acid makes for a burn I think I like this stuff more than I don’t. I got really solid chest contractions and a good pump, which is tough to accomplish these days.

Regarding Stampede, my understanding is that the ATP doesn’t have a direct effect like the AMP as far as impacting performance. However, my question is does the presence of ATP in the solution prevent the AMP from triggering amp kinase? If so that’s a great combination to get the benefits without the negatives.

——————————————————

Daily Weighted Fasted Cardio

20 lb weight vest: 3.0 x 60-90 minutes slight incline


Monday/Thursday: Chest/Delts/Triceps

Pec Deck
55 lbs: 20
70 lbs: 20
85 lbs: 20 x 4
100 lbs: 12 x 4

Decline Chest Press
60 lbs (per side): 12 x 8

Lateral Raise Machine
100 lbs: 16 x 6

Front Raise Machine
130 lbs: 16 x 6

Bent Over Lateral Raise Machine
85 lbs: 16 x 6

Triceps Press Bar
37.5 lbs: 20 x 4

Triceps V Handle
37.5 lbs: 20 x 4
Correct, Injecting ATP does not get into the cells. In fact when extracellular ATP is present it creates Inflammation/pain to the area. Our own ATP outside of the cell is more bad than good. Injecting high amounts is very toxic
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
Well on that note…. Anybody want a fresh unopened bottle of stampede? XD
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
Lol, you should be fine… Unless you are not in which case, I call his Vicious Labs hats! I need more than two haha
I think I have one brand new one left in my saving spot haha
 

Rocket3015

Legend
Correct, Injecting ATP does not get into the cells. In fact when extracellular ATP is present it creates Inflammation/pain to the area. Our own ATP outside of the cell is more bad than good. Injecting high amounts is very toxic
Anyone else have any thoughts on this ?
 
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Hyde

Legend
I second this. What a great topic. That’s why I love guys like Hyde or Majora
I really wish the product was just a larger dose of injectable AMP along with Carnitine. That’s where the pumps & endurance is gonna come from, both of those 2 compounds.

You can buy injectable AMP on veterinary sites but you need a script in America. If you take too much intravenously accidentally, it can stop your heart.
 
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ZOO

Board Sponsor
I really wish the product was just a larger dose of injectable AMP along with Carnitine. That’s where the pumps & endurance is gonna come from, both of those 2 compounds.

You can buy injectable AMP on veterinary sites but you need a script in America. If you take too much intravenously accidentally, it can stop your heart.
I suspect the only reason they added it is to prevent the AMP from initiating ampkinase which turns off growth pathways iirc. However, if that’s the case then I’m left wondering if the presence of extra cellular ATP from the injection is able to give that signal despite being unable to be utilized in of itself.
 

ZOO

Board Sponsor
So I ended up ordering some injectable carnitine after all of this ATP talk lol. At the very least I can do a side by side comparison.

I’m also going to be adopting cycle change frequency. Roughly every 8-10 weeks I’ll change my stack. Mostly just in regards to the oils. That said I plan on starting Test E 450mg eod this Wednesday. I’ve always wanted to try high test solo and I think it will have me feeling good mentally as well as physically.
 

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