Apex Alchemy Dienogen/Dienolone Bloodwork after 3 week cycle

[nnnnnn]

This is NOT a sponsored log, blood work results are attached at the end. I ran Dienolone for 3 weeks. Prior to the start of the cycle, I had my cholesterol checked first in February then in September. I wanted to know how Dienolone would affect my lipids and see if it raised any liver enzymes while I was on 350mg TUDCA which I used every other day.

With that said, what I didn't plan for or expect was that a Dermacrine that I had for roughly 2 years now which was watery was totally worthless. It hasn't expired yet, I just decided to run it out before using a new one. My lab results showed test level extremely low. So I know that the old Dermacrine I used as a test base was worthless. I actually started running a new bottle of Dermacrine after my Dienolone bloodwork, the old bottle ran out.

Little history: First bloodwork: 02/07/20 (I wasn't taking anything, last time I was on cylce was in February 2019 with Msten): Prior total test not available folks, my mistake. Insurance paid for this one and Doc ordered it, didn't know it wouldn't be checked.

Total Cholesterol: 260 mg/dl (reference normal: <200)
Triglycerides: 51 mg/dl (reference normal <150)
HDL: 68 mg/dl (reference normal 40-60)
LDL: 182 mg/dl (reference normal <130)
Cholesterol/HDL Ratio: 3.8 (reference normal <5.0)
AST: 17 U/L (reference normal:5-34)
ALT: 17 U/L (reference normal :6-55)
GFR White: 79 (reference normal >60)
GFR Non White: 96 (reference normal >60)
Free T4: 1.04
RBC: 5.75 (Reference normal 4.7 - 6.0)
Creatinine, Serum: 1.1 (reference normal 0.8 - 1.4)
BUN: 13 (reference range 9-21)
BUN/Creatine Ratio: 11.8 (reference normal 8.0 - 22.0)

Prior Cholesterol results before start of cycle, I was used statins from Feb to June daily as prescribed by doc to get LDL down and from June till this time I stopped using it. I took some 3AD I had left for only a week at like 100mg, finished it and then got back on ator like 1 week before test.
9/15/2020:
Total Cholesterol: 154 mg/dl
HDL: 64 mg/dl
Triglycerides: 64mg/dl
LDL: 77 mg/dl
TC/LDL: 2.4
LDL/HDL: 1.2

I started Dienogen cycle on 9/15/20. The blood work after 3 weeks is attached for your viewing.
Supplements I was taking on cycle:
TUDCA 350mg (The first two weeks, I took it every other day, the last week before blood work I took it consistently for last 3 days before blood work).
Magnesium (400mg) every day
Vitamin D (5000iu) every day
Fish Oil(3600mg) everyday
Choline Inositol (500mg) everyday
Saw Palmetto (1200mg) every day
Calcium (1200mg) every day
Vitamin B6 (300mg) Three times a week at maximum
Iron Legion Virtus (0.6 or 0.7ml every day)
Atorvastatin (10mg every other day, I dosed Dienogen in the morning and took this at night every other day not everyday, When I didn't take this, I took Red Yeast Rice. Sometimes I didn't atorvastatin as planned as instead used RYR so I took RYR more than I took Ator overall)
Red Yeast Rice (1200mg every other day. Again, I alternated between this and Atorvastatin and didn't dose at the same time as Dienogen)
Citrus Bergamot (1000mg per day, I didn't take it for the first two weeks)
Celery Seed Extract (Took this last week before test but then again, I had no high blood pressure whatsoever so I didn't need it)
Ginger Root Extract (I have liquid, this was being taken to prevent LDL oxidation every day at 4ml per day in my drinks, might try Helios is the future)

Summary:
Overall for me my Cholesterol was better than I thought, my HDL decreased but it didn't crash at all, I was expecting it to be at 14 range or 9 or something, I was surprised. My LDL actually went up but this is nothing I was expecting it in the 200 by now All AAS increase LDL. Liver enzymes were normal on Dienogen for 3 weeks. Test base not good, glad I got blood work. But it also translates as Dienogen being suppresive but it's an AAS so that's what's expected. SERM is needed for PCT not OTC stuff.

Support supplements I took worked like magic, and I experienced no liver toxicity like Bro science would have you believe with something like this combined with a statin. I will say this though, I ran my Dienogen at 2ml per day and it's not a methylated compound but with AAS that doesn't mean they won't affect your liver. I must give a lot of credit to Citrus Bergamota, Fish Oil and even the ginger root. Iron Legion Virtus, oh my goodness, this stuff is no joke for estrogen control.

My intial starting weight was 170.2lbs on 9/15/20, when I took blood last week, I was 176lb and my diet wasn't even the best, I was consuming a little over 2k calories.
When I took my bloodwork 3 weeks later I was at 176lbs, So I gained 6 pounds of muscle, I got fuller with muscles, leaner which I really liked. The test base was just not working, I was tired, I yawned frequently and I suspected that it was crap and maybe a very bad batch which I bought in 2018 and kept stored safely.

Other things:
I'm using a new batch of Dermacrine as I mentioned and right now I am running Kronos at 4ml per day. I don't know if I should get a separate Kronos blood work just to see it's effects too on bloodwork and follow up on the total T. I only have 2 bottles of it and I am almost done with one bottle. The yawning has stopped though. Not sure because If I want to run Kronos for 1 additional week to make three weeks, I'll need to order more and my plan is to run primagen after 2 weeks of Kronos that might be too much bloodwork cost if I have to order more bottles too so I'm debating whether to wait till cycle end at end of the month before new blood work. Not sure how long BOGO runs for at Apex.

I am thinking of three things:
1)Get Kronos bloodwork in two weeks to followup with Dienolone bloodwork and see how it affects lipids, total testosterone.
2)Order an additional bottle of Kronos, get one Dienogen bottle with BOGO, run Kronos for an extra week, get bloodwork then get back on Dienogen for last 1 week too?
3) Run kronos and Primagen then get bloodwork at end of the month only

Which option is better?

 

[nostrum420]

As for the Dermacrine, I think you got one from a batch that was a little off. I'm given to understand, the issue has been corrected, but additionally, I wouldn't expect Dermacrine to create normal blood levels of Testosterone while on Dien. Frankly, I wouldn't expect that of anything short of a TRT dose of Test; Dien is quite suppressive.

As for your 3 intended plans from here, I would recommend option 1.

 

[nnnnnn]

As for the Dermacrine, I think you got one from a batch that was a little off. I'm given to understand, the issue has been corrected, but additionally, I wouldn't expect Dermacrine to create normal blood levels of Testosterone while on Dien. Frankly, I wouldn't expect that of anything short of a TRT dose of Test; Dien is quite suppressive.

As for your 3 intended plans from here, I would recommend option 1.

Gonna order one more bottle of Kronos and I'll get blood work on 10/26 to follow up with Dienogen. I might need to dial the Kronos dose back from 4ml to 3ml. Or what do you think? 4ml too much?

 

[nostrum420]

Gonna order one more bottle of Kronos and I'll get blood work on 10/26 to follow up with Dienogen. I might need to dial the Kronos dose back from 4ml to 3ml. Or what do you think? 4ml too much?

There's no one-size-fits-all dosing. You gotta see what works for you.

 

[nnnnnn]

Getting blood work done today for 3 week 11kt cycle. I'm thinking about wrapping up the cycle last 2.5 weeks with 2 bottles of Dien and 2 bottles of Primagen I have left. I also have Alpha 7 which I will be adding. Thinking of getting more dermacrine in case or just buy Alpha Four or Alpha One? Thoughts folks?

My PCT:
Nolvadex 20mg for 4 weeks
Testrozone from Musclegelz
Fire from Musclegelz
Humanogen from Musclegelz

 

[nnnnnn]

I got Iron Mag 4 andro to run as test base. Dermacrine will run out end of this week

 

[UNX]

I got Iron Mag 4 andro to run as test base. Dermacrine will run out end of this week

Run 4-Andro or dermacrine as a base, 1-Andro is not a test base. So you did run 3 weeks of 11-KT alone or with dienolone too?

 

[nnnnnn]

Run 4-Andro or dermacrine as a base, 1-Andro is not a test base. So you did run 3 weeks of 11-KT alone or with dienolone too?

I ran Kronos (11-kt) solo for 3 weeks. Same way I did this Dienolone. I should have the blood work by Friday and I can post for all to see.

 

[CasperKValentine]

Your bloodwork looks fine. A jacked-up lipid panel is to be expected, part of the reason anabolics are cycled. As for the crashed test, that should be of no surprise either. With these compounds, nothing is going to keep your test levels in the normal range other than test. Dermacrine is just a DHEA product that converts to other hormones. I know people use it as a 'test base' but seems a bit pointless to me. I doubt it helps much at all on a cycle. Of course, everyone is different and there may be people who have had good results. Hope this helps brother. Happy cycling!

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

i am going to step up here and agree with nos and casper. the truth is, a couple of reps from LG started the whole test base thing to sell more DHEA (marketed as a test precursor) > and these two guys above are spot on. dermacrine and all these DHEA isomers are NOT capable of creating enough test to replace test.. let alone replace your test when its in the tank. frankly, unless you are low on DHEA there is nothing going to happen from taking it in regaurds to replacing hormones. I know this because i was one of those reps. if you want to stop or diminish the lethargy you get from some anabolics, try lowering your total anabolic dose/load instead. by adding to dermacrine after the lethargy started, you were possibly adding fuel to the fire. the product sounds like it was bunk anyways but next time try my suggestion.

 

[UNX]

i am going to step up here and agree with nos and casper. the truth is, a couple of reps from LG started the whole test base thing to sell more DHEA (marketed as a test precursor) > and these two guys above are spot on. dermacrine and all these DHEA isomers are NOT capable of creating enough test to replace test.. let alone replace your test when its in the tank. frankly, unless you are low on DHEA there is nothing going to happen from taking it in regaurds to replacing hormones. I know this because i was one of those reps. if you want to stop or diminish the lethargy you get from some anabolics, try lowering your total anabolic dose/load instead. by adding to dermacrine after the lethargy started, you were possibly adding fuel to the fire. the product sounds like it was bunk anyways but next time try my suggestion.

Dermacrine has lots of positives reviews. Isn't DHEA a good source of estrogens in men?

BTW, I remember the old days when LG Sciences sold overpriced DHEA + OTC AI as anabolics.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

im in no way saying dermacrine doesnt have its uses. and im aware of its fond followers. but that doesnt change my stance on its use as a "test base"

 

[nnnnnn]

i am going to step up here and agree with nos and casper. the truth is, a couple of reps from LG started the whole test base thing to sell more DHEA (marketed as a test precursor) > and these two guys above are spot on. dermacrine and all these DHEA isomers are NOT capable of creating enough test to replace test.. let alone replace your test when its in the tank. frankly, unless you are low on DHEA there is nothing going to happen from taking it in regaurds to replacing hormones. I know this because i was one of those reps. if you want to stop or diminish the lethargy you get from some anabolics, try lowering your total anabolic dose/load instead. by adding to dermacrine after the lethargy started, you were possibly adding fuel to the fire. the product sounds like it was bunk anyways but next time try my suggestion.

I completely agree with you that it does not work as a test base. Also going back to my bloodwork and being in shock, I tried to rationalize why it didn't work and I probably gave too much benefit of the doubt about it not manufactured correctly. I shouldn't be making excuses for a product. I need to accept that the product is what it is and my bloodwork if it were a person, would reach across and slap me in the face if I ever said Dermacrine is a test base, or does much of anything or sufficient for a test base. I'm trusting my blood work on this one so I'll leave it at that.

Also with lethargy, I agree with you. It's just the body saying test is over suppressed and dialing dosage back rectifies that.

In another news, I'm still expecting my 11-KT bloodwork. Thought I'd get it today but maybe tomorrow.

 

[BCseacow83]

i am going to step up here and agree with nos and casper. the truth is, a couple of reps from LG started the whole test base thing to sell more DHEA (marketed as a test precursor) > and these two guys above are spot on. dermacrine and all these DHEA isomers are NOT capable of creating enough test to replace test.. let alone replace your test when its in the tank. frankly, unless you are low on DHEA there is nothing going to happen from taking it in regaurds to replacing hormones. I know this because i was one of those reps. if you want to stop or diminish the lethargy you get from some anabolics, try lowering your total anabolic dose/load instead. by adding to dermacrine after the lethargy started, you were possibly adding fuel to the fire. the product sounds like it was bunk anyways but next time try my suggestion.

I think this is really a case of misnaming/labeling. That is to say, Dermacrine should be considered more of a wellness base if you will. If given the choice of running something suppressive with zero conversion to estrogen, such as epistane or SD I would bet most would feel better with dermacrine than without it.

I have to disagree with you about all the dhea isomers as if you get enough 4-dhea in you, say a proper TD or even better a hypothetical sterile oil-based formulation, it can absolutely stand in for test to a degree. I know this as I used it in place of TRT while in-between insurance and doctors and it was night and day better than taking nothing. I produce zero endo test and 4-dhea saved my ass for over a year. Is test better? Of course but I actually feel better with test and 4-dhea to be honest. Now were most of the benefits I was receiving due to the intrinsic action of 4-diol? Perhaps and probably as that would explain the additive effect when I use it with my TRT.

I forget who it was but a member on VL forum had labs performed with Alpha Gainz 4-andro TD and had test levels in the 600's and he was hypogonadal. Now is this going to hang with real test? No, but is it better than having levels sub 100ng/dl? Yes.

 

[goodvibes]

I think this is really a case of misnaming/labeling. That is to say, Dermacrine should be considered more of a wellness base if you will. If given the choice of running something suppressive with zero conversion to estrogen, such as epistane or SD I would bet most would feel better with dermacrine than without it.

I have to disagree with you about all the dhea isomers as if you get enough 4-dhea in you, say a proper TD or even better a hypothetical sterile oil-based formulation, it can absolutely stand in for test to a degree. I know this as I used it in place of TRT while in-between insurance and doctors and it was night and day better than taking nothing. I produce zero endo test and 4-dhea saved my ass for over a year. Is test better? Of course but I actually feel better with test and 4-dhea to be honest. Now were most of the benefits I was receiving due to the intrinsic action of 4-diol? Perhaps and probably as that would explain the additive effect when I use it with my TRT.

I forget who it was but a member on VL forum had labs performed with Alpha Gainz 4-andro TD and had test levels in the 600's and he was hypogonadal. Now is this going to hang with real test? No, but is it better than having levels sub 100ng/dl? Yes.

4-dhea producing blood levels that high?! what was his dosing? Cause I've done the numbers before and there was no way a recommended dose can reach that.

 

[BCseacow83]

4-dhea producing blood levels that high?! what was his dosing? Cause I've done the numbers before and there was no way a recommended dose can reach that.

I believe he was using 2ml and it was 150mg/ml. It was NOT an oral. As I mentioned I only vouch for it IF you can get enough in your bloodstream.

What did you use and what were your results?

 

[Renew1]

I think this is really a case of misnaming/labeling. That is to say, Dermacrine should be considered more of a wellness base if you will. If given the choice of running something suppressive with zero conversion to estrogen, such as epistane or SD I would bet most would feel better with dermacrine than without it.

I have to disagree with you about all the dhea isomers as if you get enough 4-dhea in you, say a proper TD or even better a hypothetical sterile oil-based formulation, it can absolutely stand in for test to a degree. I know this as I used it in place of TRT while in-between insurance and doctors and it was night and day better than taking nothing. I produce zero endo test and 4-dhea saved my ass for over a year. Is test better? Of course but I actually feel better with test and 4-dhea to be honest. Now were most of the benefits I was receiving due to the intrinsic action of 4-diol? Perhaps and probably as that would explain the additive effect when I use it with my TRT.

I forget who it was but a member on VL forum had labs performed with Alpha Gainz 4-andro TD and had test levels in the 600's and he was hypogonadal. Now is this going to hang with real test? No, but is it better than having levels sub 100ng/dl? Yes.

I totally agree with you about Dermacrine.
I've used it with SD, and Epistane, and it helped a lot.

I've always disliked the term "Test Base", (and I always put it in quotation marks, where it belongs).

A LOT of new guys get a totally wrong idea about what a "base" is, and what it does.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

I believe he was using 2ml and it was 150mg/ml. It was NOT an oral. As I mentioned I only vouch for it IF you can get enough in your bloodstream.

What did you use and what were your results?

im confused... are u talking about 4 diol or 4 DHEA? two totally different things. I do not intend to box people in with my statements, there are always outliers. if one guy gets something from one hormone, and no one else does he is an outlier. I totally understand there are benefits to many of the DHEAs, but they in no way are to be considered a replacement for test as everyone would make it out to be. Its cool you disagree. we can still be friends.

 

[BCseacow83]

4-dhea is what I was talking about. I was hypothesizing that the reason I find it additive to TRT is likely due to it's conversion to 4-diol and 4-diols intrinsic activity at the androgen receptor.

 

[goodvibes]

I believe he was using 2ml and it was 150mg/ml. It was NOT an oral. As I mentioned I only vouch for it IF you can get enough in your bloodstream.

What did you use and what were your results?

That's impossible then. Testosterone itself produced by legit pharmaceutical labs with very strong studies is only absorbed by 10% with the best TD carriers with the best r&d teams. At 300mg/mL his 4-dhea total is 210mg/week. Then factor in the 2-step conversion? Yea... not gonna happen.

 

[BCseacow83]

If you think 10% is the best a TD can deliver because that's what the crappy t-gels deliver then I don't know what to say, I guess it was those "best RandD teams," that decided vitamin D2 was the best form to go with as well..... Pharma goes with "good enough" more than people realize. If they could make a TD that was 20% absorbed but cost 4x as much then simply would not as it is cheaper to apply twice as much.

I don't know why I try to convince people that these things have value. Do what you want.

 

[goodvibes]

If you think 10% is the best a TD can deliver because that's what the crappy t-gels deliver then I don't know what to say, I guess it was those "best RandD teams," that decided vitamin D2 was the best form to go with as well..... Pharma goes with "good enough" more than people realize. If they could make a TD that was 20% absorbed but cost 4x as much then simply would not as it is cheaper to apply twice as much.

I don't know why I try to convince people that these things have value. Do what you want.

I'm just basing off everything through published materials and what I've studied in the past. Maybe I'm behind on the game but if you find any transdermal carriers that can achieve what you think it can please cite said publication. I'd like to believe we can achieve more but unless you have real data to prove these claims then we can all agree it's all broscience.

 

[Renew1]

I'm just basing off everything through published materials and what I've studied in the past. Maybe I'm behind on the game but if you find any transdermal carriers that can achieve what you think it can please cite said publication. I'd like to believe we can achieve more but unless you have real data to prove these claims then we can all agree it's all broscience.

You're behind (if that's what you believe).
But if you're looking for papers/studies as your sole basis for what you believe, rather than also considering testimonies, that's fine ... continue in your beliefs.

"Science only", versus Actual results gives us scenarios similar to this one:.

100 guys took the same substance, and within 3 days of ingesting, 98 were dead.
There are no scientific papers stating that the substance is a poison, so calling it poison based upon the results is just broscience.
.... Everyone should continue on with using the substance, until "real" info is presented.

 

[BCseacow83]

I'm just basing off everything through published materials and what I've studied in the past. Maybe I'm behind on the game but if you find any transdermal carriers that can achieve what you think it can please cite said publication. I'd like to believe we can achieve more but unless you have real data to prove these claims then we can all agree it's all broscience.

It would be interesting to have NOS and delsolrob chime in as I would put both of their carries against the t-gel one anyday. If there is research on better carriers I believe those two men would know.

 

[goodvibes]

You're behind (if that's what you believe).
But if you're looking for papers/studies as your sole basis for what you believe, rather than also considering testimonies, that's fine ... continue in your beliefs.

"Science only", versus Actual results gives us scenarios similar to this one:.

100 guys took the same substance, and within 3 days of ingesting, 98 were dead.
There are no scientific papers stating that the substance is a poison, so calling it poison based upon the results is just broscience.
.... Everyone should continue on with using the substance, until "real" info is presented.

What?! Lol I'm trying to have a decent conversation without putting any of you down. One you have no clue who you're talking to and two that is definitely the worst type of study design. "Actual results" from testimonials of no controlled environment is the worst type of science. Thank you for the reply, I cant believe I wasted my time on this thread.

 

[goodvibes]

It would be interesting to have NOS and delsolrob chime in as I would put both of their carries against the t-gel one anyday. If there is research on better carriers I believe those two men would know.

Honestly I've done my studies. I'll talk to you on DM.

 

[nostrum420]

If 100mg of Rx TD test can put you at the high end of the normal range, then presumably ~30% of that could put one at the low end of the normal range. So, even if we were to assume 4-DHEA is only 10% as effective as testosterone, the claim that 300mg of TD 4-DHEA could put one at the low end of normal is not outlandish.

 

[BCseacow83]

If 100mg of Rx TD test can put you at the high end of the normal range, then presumably ~30% of that could put one at the low end of the normal range. So, even if we were to assume 4-DHEA is only 10% as effective as testosterone, the claim that 300mg of TD 4-DHEA could put one at the low end of normal is not outlandish.

I touched on my theory as to why it improves my sense of well being and worked as a make shift substitute for my TRT. I believe that the overwhelming amount of results are due to 4-diol conversion. NOS I still use some of the old 4-dhea oil and combined with my real test TRT it certainly adds to it.

As to that posters claims I cannot prove them one way or another. I do know when I had zero endo test and zero trt 150mg/day of 4-dhea in a TD was life saving. Was that all due to the conversion of 4-dhea> 4-diol/4-dione???? I have no idea. I just know the stuff works well and if it were not compared to test I believe people would have a higher opinion of it.

I might have to run some solo for a while and see what kind of labs I can obtain??? Hmmmmm.

 

[Renew1]

What?! Lol I'm trying to have a decent conversation without putting any of you down. One you have no clue who you're talking to and two that is definitely the worst type of study design. "Actual results" from testimonials of no controlled environment is the worst type of science. Thank you for the reply, I cant believe I wasted my time on this thread.

No, you WEREN'T trying to have a decent conversation without putting anyone down.
Any time your comment (basically) states that we're all Do-do heads if we don't agree with you... That's not gonna get a decent response.
... Because it wasn't a decent comment.

No offense man, but I couldn't give a Flying Sh** who you are.
I care about REALITY.
YOU'RE not living there man.

.... And those dead guys couldn't give a rip about your "Science" either.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

I might have to run some solo for a while and see what kind of labs I can obtain??? Hmmmmm.

that would be really great actually as there are not a lot of those i am sure.

 

[goodvibes]

If 100mg of Rx TD test can put you at the high end of the normal range, then presumably ~30% of that could put one at the low end of the normal range. So, even if we were to assume 4-DHEA is only 10% as effective as testosterone, the claim that 300mg of TD 4-DHEA could put one at the low end of normal is not outlandish.

What's the best prohormone out there that has the best possible conversion to real test? I can give it a whirl and keep you and bcseacow updates. DM me your social media I can follow you both there and I can communicate as best as I could.

 

[nostrum420]

What's the best prohormone out there that has the best possible conversion to real test? I can give it a whirl and keep you and bcseacow updates. DM me your social media I can follow you both there and I can communicate as best as I could.

For a TD 4-DHEA? I think Iconic Formulations makes one now?? ... If not grab the one from Alpha Gainz.