Anyone worried if Corona virus keeps spreading the gyms will shut down?

thebigt

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Gotta wonder about the intent of a 'lockdown'. If its to "flatten the curve" and keep hospitals from being overwhelmed, I am totally on board. But what state hasn't already accomplished this by now? Even NY is dismantling the emergency field hospitals and the Navy ship has sailed away.

Again - the STATED purpose of the lockdown was reached (everywhere?) and those places should ALL start to reopen with the new policies and lessons learned for social distancing, masks, etc. in place.

Keeping the strict lockdowns in effect longer accomplishes what? Virus is still out there, never going away, same fatality rate for those that catch it... and with no vaccine in hand everyone is still going to catch it, eventually. Now, next month, next year, whenever. We can slow the cycle, but we can't stop the cycle. So a lockdown to the extent needed just to flatten the curve and prevent hospitals from being overrun makes sense.

But to keep it going after that screams ulterior motive. When the goalposts keep getting moved. We will never be able to test everyone everyday before going to work. To even suggest that is stupid (media guys at the white house briefings). Can't say to lockdown until a 'cure' arrives when that might be never (like the mayor of L.A. just did).

Given what we know now, and the economic limits of action/inaction--- seems the best thing is to begin to reopen and monitor the inevitable increase in those who become critically ill. Everything up to the point of reaching hospital max capacity is actually a good thing IF the only sure way out of this is eventual herd immunity.

And as the 5 min antibody tests roll out more and more, those who have been thru the virus and survived get some kind of card/certification to prove they are clear. We are going to find ourselves in maybe three camps -- one total lockdown for the seniors in nursing care, one living with social distancing and masks, and one of people with antibodies and now clear and safe (no masks even needed, like Rand Paul). With more and more people moving from one pool into the other as we stumble through this to the best of our ability.

Is there any other alternative????
the best alternative I can think of is

keep nursing homes under strict guidelines

take high risk people out of workforce and put on disability benefits

take high risk children out of school-homeschool


let low risk people return to work and continue to ask for compliance of guidelines...with as many as possible working from home.
 
thebigt

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Why may I ask has you opposed to it?
it would be private corporations doing the tracing, and we all know how much private corporations like google/apple/Microsoft can be trusted with personal information.

I don't even belong to any other social media other than AM and never use my credit card for online purchases. don't pay bills online and so forth.
 
justhere4comm

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This may help but then again, it may not apply to you, just others.



 
BamBam54

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it would be private corporations doing the tracing, and we all know how much private corporations like google/apple/Microsoft can be trusted with personal information.

I don't even belong to any other social media other than AM and never use my credit card for online purchases. don't pay bills online and so forth.
Even the Feds are not secure. Remember when the OMP was hacked and lost everything for 22 million fed employees including security clearances and detailed background checks!
 

DrChicken

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I feel like that guy who sees something coming that others (not in this thread necessarily) can see.
You know that scene in that movie right? Where the next victim is like "he's right behind me isn't he?"... hack / slash / spurt.

There will be a second wave.
It's going to be horrific and on par with The Spanish Flu.

I'll be honest.
It's a fcuking scary thought.

Not to be disrespectful but...

Does your a.sshole ever get jealous of all the sh1t that comes out your mouth?

“On par with the Spanish flu”
The Spanish flu killed healthy 18-30 yr olds like it was nothing.
This is not. I know a few younger people who have gotten it and guess what “it was a bad cold”
Even a friend with auto immune issues, he’s fine.

You do realize that healthcare is being incentivized to put COVID on death certificates right? The hospitals get a lot of money for that.

Even the nurse protests are staged
I cannot discuss it much but my family member is near the top at a hospital and he was told word for word how these nurse protests are being staged.

The death rate is highly inflated and we all know it.

Why is it that all the red states have a tenth of the death rates of blue states?
Why is it that the goalposts keep getting moved?
We’ve flattened the curve, NY is tearing down emergency shelters and the hospital boat set it’s sails...

At this point the blue team is using this to push their communist agenda and quite frankly the only reason his has been dragged out is because it’s re election year

This is no longer a safety issue
This is purely political
 
justhere4comm

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Yet. Contact tracing saves lives.

Maybe fight windmill cancer on some other fronts. It’s suspiciously inane.
 

DrChicken

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Like i said I’m not trying to disrespect you and be an ass but we need to see past this fake BS and unite as a country before we’re the next china.

Surely you can see our rights are being stripped one day at a time..

That starts with the stopping of all the fear mongering and exaggerations
 
BamBam54

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Yet. Contact tracing saves lives.

Maybe fight windmill cancer on some other fronts. It’s suspiciously inane.

But does contract tracing really save total lives lost?? Or does it just slow the rate of disease spreading. Because if in the end this virus can only be "stopped" by reaching herd immunity, then the same number will eventually get it and die. Roughly.

Contract tracing would make the greatest difference if it could stave off the virus until a vaccine is available. But who knows if or when a vaccine will ever arrive? And those countries currently making the most effect of contract tracing have yet to hit the 2nd or 3rd wave. They still have a fall season where viruses typically rage, even in other countries.
 
thebigt

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This may help but then again, it may not apply to you, just others.



man, I am with you on some things when it comes to covid19, contact tracing isn't one of them...those articles just confirm my fears.
 
HIT4ME

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Not to be disrespectful but...

Does your a.sshole ever get jealous of all the sh1t that comes out your mouth?

“On par with the Spanish flu”
The Spanish flu killed healthy 18-30 yr olds like it was nothing.
This is not. I know a few younger people who have gotten it and guess what “it was a bad cold”
Even a friend with auto immune issues, he’s fine.

You do realize that healthcare is being incentivized to put COVID on death certificates right? The hospitals get a lot of money for that.

Even the nurse protests are staged
I cannot discuss it much but my family member is near the top at a hospital and he was told word for word how these nurse protests are being staged.

The death rate is highly inflated and we all know it.

Why is it that all the red states have a tenth of the death rates of blue states?
Why is it that the goalposts keep getting moved?
We’ve flattened the curve, NY is tearing down emergency shelters and the hospital boat set it’s sails...

At this point the blue team is using this to push their communist agenda and quite frankly the only reason his has been dragged out is because it’s re election year

This is no longer a safety issue
This is purely political
Whoa. You obviously don't know much about...um... much, and this post is an epic example of that.

You have a "family member" who is "near the top" at "a hospital" - I love it when I hear that stuff. Like, I can't say their position even when I'm obscuring everything else about them. And they were told word for word how these protests are being staged? So that makes it true? It wouldn't be much of a cover up if they're telling your random family member and they're sharing it with you.

How is this a political "thing"? You do realize that humans don't control everything, right? Sometimes you have to adapt to the world around you, and no human on the planet - senators and presidents included - can make it conform to your needs.

So, if it's republicans vs. democrats - what's the explanation for China, Japan, Italy, Spain, Sweden? Are they all in cahoots with the dems?

And what is your evidence for "inflated" numbers?

I mean, I'm pretty darned conservative. I'm all for individual freedoms. Heck, I went out and bought a pistol before everything got closed down. I'm the guy sending videos of Joe Biden to all my liberal friends...yes that list gets smaller and smaller every day. But I'm not sure how you are seeing all of this.


Like i said I’m not trying to disrespect you and be an ass but we need to see past this fake BS and unite as a country before we’re the next china.

Surely you can see our rights are being stripped one day at a time..

That starts with the stopping of all the fear mongering and exaggerations
LOL, classic. "We might want to unite before we're the next China...blah blah....stop the fear mongering and exaggerations"

What rights have you had stripped away? List 3. Not being allowed to go to a movie theater, gym, or ice cream shop is not a violation of your rights.

How about this, we unite as a country, look out for others, try not to spread a disease to people who may die from it. Or did you have a different definition of "unite"?

But does contract tracing really save total lives lost?? Or does it just slow the rate of disease spreading. Because if in the end this virus can only be "stopped" by reaching herd immunity, then the same number will eventually get it and die. Roughly.

Contract tracing would make the greatest difference if it could stave off the virus until a vaccine is available. But who knows if or when a vaccine will ever arrive? And those countries currently making the most effect of contract tracing have yet to hit the 2nd or 3rd wave. They still have a fall season where viruses typically rage, even in other countries.
Well, yes - it saves lives. I mean, we are all going to die so does anything we do save anyone's life? But if I avoid getting the virus today, it's another day I live. Sure, eventually I may get it - but did avoidance prolong my life? Yes. And it also increased my chance of surviving if I do eventually get it because if I get it 2 years from now after all of this has blown over, when I show up at the hospital I will likely have care available and they will likely know much more about how to treat me by then, vaccine or not.

So, contact tracing can help prevent people who unknowingly have the disease from spreading it to others, and help in avoidance for others.

Having said that, yeah, it's a slippery slope - but if you have an Android (or worse, Apple) phone, chances are that the data is already collected - it is just a matter of sorting. If you don't have one of those phones, there is still a good chance your data has been collected because you've been in contact with someone else who does have one.
 
BamBam54

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Well, yes - it saves lives. I mean, we are all going to die so does anything we do save anyone's life? But if I avoid getting the virus today, it's another day I live. Sure, eventually I may get it - but did avoidance prolong my life? Yes. And it also increased my chance of surviving if I do eventually get it because if I get it 2 years from now after all of this has blown over, when I show up at the hospital I will likely have care available and they will likely know much more about how to treat me by then, vaccine or not.

So, contact tracing can help prevent people who unknowingly have the disease from spreading it to others, and help in avoidance for others.
I am with you in the general theory that contract tracing can help control the spread of the disease, and in doing so save lives. But I think that applies more if there was a way this could be traced/quarantined to the point of eradication. However, this virus will never leave the human race, and will continue to spread forever until it runs out of people to infect (herd immunity) the contract tracing game might be a lost cause. And we here do not appear to be in a position where gov't intervention lockdowns and tracing can be a game played for years. We are what... around 8 weeks into this, and some $3-5 trillion committed (with congress pushing for another $3 trillion)?!?!

How long can kids be kept out of school? What size army is needed to contract trace every student in elementary, high school, and college? Just think of how college kids travel and spring this year! Not to mention every adult. Apps are cute, but they aren't boots on the ground.

I am just beginning to think a controlled path towards herd immunity might be the better way out. [*caveat - as long as any outbreaks do not exceed hospital capacity, at which time all bets are off and we lockdown again]

Take the least vulnerable population for example, what really happens if everyone goes back to school? Those who get through the virus (99+%) are then clear. They are no longer a risk to family or society at large. They can visit grandparents again. They can join the workforce and power the country forward. All good. I think contract tracing and fighting to avoid the virus for as long as possible risks slowing the economic recovery and resuming social order for as long as possible with the most cost as possible.

Look at congress. They are unable/willing to come back to work. While Rand Paul had the virus and is now clear, not wearing a mask at all and ready for work.

Maybe going through the process at least for the vast majority who are least as risk, to reach a point faster where they are no longer a risk, is better for everyone especially those most at risk.

Just thinking outside the box. Because locked in a box is both dreary and expensive.
 
HIT4ME

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I am with you in the general theory that contract tracing can help control the spread of the disease, and in doing so save lives. But I think that applies more if there was a way this could be traced/quarantined to the point of eradication. However, this virus will never leave the human race, and will continue to spread forever until it runs out of people to infect (herd immunity) the contract tracing game might be a lost cause. And we here do not appear to be in a position where gov't intervention lockdowns and tracing can be a game played for years. We are what... around 8 weeks into this, and some $3-5 trillion committed (with congress pushing for another $3 trillion)?!?!

How long can kids be kept out of school? What size army is needed to contract trace every student in elementary, high school, and college? Just think of how college kids travel and spring this year! Not to mention every adult. Apps are cute, but they aren't boots on the ground.

I am just beginning to think a controlled path towards herd immunity might be the better way out. [*caveat - as long as any outbreaks do not exceed hospital capacity, at which time all bets are off and we lockdown again]

Take the least vulnerable population for example, what really happens if everyone goes back to school? Those who get through the virus (99+%) are then clear. They are no longer a risk to family or society at large. They can visit grandparents again. They can join the workforce and power the country forward. All good. I think contract tracing and fighting to avoid the virus for as long as possible risks slowing the economic recovery and resuming social order for as long as possible with the most cost as possible.

Look at congress. They are unable/willing to come back to work. While Rand Paul had the virus and is now clear, not wearing a mask at all and ready for work.

Maybe going through the process at least for the vast majority who are least as risk, to reach a point faster where they are no longer a risk, is better for everyone especially those most at risk.

Just thinking outside the box. Because locked in a box is both dreary and expensive.
Again, I don't have all the answers and your response is very reasonable it seems. I can agree that contact tracing may not be 100% feasible.
 
thebigt

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Again, I don't have all the answers and your response is very reasonable it seems. I can agree that contact tracing may not be 100% feasible.
contact tracing is [for me anyways]a very slippery slope.

kind of reminds me of 9-11 and the power we gave to government.
 
BamBam54

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Again, I don't have all the answers and your response is very reasonable it seems. I can agree that contact tracing may not be 100% feasible.
Thanks.
I realize South Korea is the gold standard for testing and tracing, but they are at a completely different scale from our situation. Here are the current numbers.

193967


So if current cases to track = total confirmed cases - dead - recovered.... the US has over a million cases to trace out for every possible transmissible human (or animal ?) contact, plus all of the invisible asymptomatic cases out there. While S. Korea has less than a thousand.

Seems to me the key is just watching that curve, and NOT exceeding hospital capacity. A scarier version of the old chicken pox parties we had as kids to get through that disease. Open things up slowly. Use what we learned about masks and social distancing etc. Employ contact tracing and stiffer measures where there is a more serious localized outbreak.

I feel a little trapped and want to fight back. Move forward aiming for the other side of all this (herd immunity?) rather than freezing in place. Like in the military when caught in an ambush. It may seem contrary to instinct... but we (Marines) train to turn and attack INTO the ambush. Because sitting in place is already the kill zone. Gotta find a way out. And attacking forward is generally best.
 
thebigt

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Thanks.
I realize South Korea is the gold standard for testing and tracing, but they are at a completely different scale from our situation. Here are the current numbers.

View attachment 193967

So if current cases to track = total confirmed cases - dead - recovered.... the US has over a million cases to trace out for every possible transmissible human (or animal ?) contact, plus all of the invisible asymptomatic cases out there. While S. Korea has less than a thousand.

Seems to me the key is just watching that curve, and NOT exceeding hospital capacity. A scarier version of the old chicken pox parties we had as kids to get through that disease. Open things up slowly. Use what we learned about masks and social distancing etc. Employ contact tracing and stiffer measures where there is a more serious localized outbreak.

I feel a little trapped and want to fight back. Move forward aiming for the other side of all this (herd immunity?) rather than freezing in place. Like in the military when caught in an ambush. It may seem contrary to instinct... but we (Marines) train to turn and attack INTO the ambush. Because sitting in place is already the kill zone. Gotta find a way out. And attacking forward is generally best.
didn't know you were a marine---OOORAAAH.
 

DrChicken

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Whoa. You obviously don't know much about...um... much, and this post is an epic example of that.

You have a "family member" who is "near the top" at "a hospital" - I love it when I hear that stuff. Like, I can't say their position even when I'm obscuring everything else about them. And they were told word for word how these protests are being staged? So that makes it true? It wouldn't be much of a cover up if they're telling your random family member and they're sharing it with you.

How is this a political "thing"? You do realize that humans don't control everything, right? Sometimes you have to adapt to the world around you, and no human on the planet - senators and presidents included - can make it conform to your needs.

So, if it's republicans vs. democrats - what's the explanation for China, Japan, Italy, Spain, Sweden? Are they all in cahoots with the dems?

And what is your evidence for "inflated" numbers?

I mean, I'm pretty darned conservative. I'm all for individual freedoms. Heck, I went out and bought a pistol before everything got closed down. I'm the guy sending videos of Joe Biden to all my liberal friends...yes that list gets smaller and smaller every day. But I'm not sure how you are seeing all of this.




LOL, classic. "We might want to unite before we're the next China...blah blah....stop the fear mongering and exaggerations"

What rights have you had stripped away? List 3. Not being allowed to go to a movie theater, gym, or ice cream shop is not a violation of your rights.

How about this, we unite as a country, look out for others, try not to spread a disease to people who may die from it. Or did you have a different definition of "unite"?



Well, yes - it saves lives. I mean, we are all going to die so does anything we do save anyone's life? But if I avoid getting the virus today, it's another day I live. Sure, eventually I may get it - but did avoidance prolong my life? Yes. And it also increased my chance of surviving if I do eventually get it because if I get it 2 years from now after all of this has blown over, when I show up at the hospital I will likely have care available and they will likely know much more about how to treat me by then, vaccine or not.

So, contact tracing can help prevent people who unknowingly have the disease from spreading it to others, and help in avoidance for others.

Having said that, yeah, it's a slippery slope - but if you have an Android (or worse, Apple) phone, chances are that the data is already collected - it is just a matter of sorting. If you don't have one of those phones, there is still a good chance your data has been collected because you've been in contact with someone else who does have one.
I am not here to name call and argue, but if you like I could give you his medical license name and address?
I’m being vague for a reason- he’d lose his job if it was exposed that he told his family.

You can believe I’m making this up if you want but I have nothing to gain from this.


It sounds like you already know it all so I’m not going to change your mind but here is where I am coming from:


If you don’t see a problem with:

A mom being arrested for taking her child to a playground
A man being arrested for paddle boarding in the middle of the ocean
A man being arrested for opening his business while adhering to social distancing
Governors overstepping their boundaries threatening to arrest everyone while their wife’s / husbands fly to Florida and go golfing and get haircuts

Then I don’t know what to tell you.

Millions of Americans have lost their jobs including my family members because their job was considered “non essential” and are forced to take half pay from an “essential” amazon warehouse

If you think this is ok, again- I don’t know what to tell you.

If you’re still receiving a paycheck I don’t think your argument on lockdown is as robust as if you’re not.

Do you think the feds printing another trillion dollars for yet another stimulus check is a good idea? I think not- unless you’re ok paying 40$ for a loaf of bread.


As for the China comment- I have family friends from Eastern Europe (I can’t remember the exact country off the top of my head- yes I realize this is vague as well - take it or leave it)

The mother told us this is exactly how their nation went down the toilet.. slowly increasing gov power over time until the citizens had no rights left.


Look I’m not saying the virus isn’t real
I’m saying it’s been extremely exaggerated and it’s time to slowly and in a controlled fashion open back up.


The true test will be GA, FL, and TX numbers in another month
If they aren’t critical it’s time the rest of us follow suit
 
maximillia

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So, um, you do realize that androgens increase your risk of catching and dying from covid, right? Men in general are more vulnerable to the disease, and there are strong links between androgens and ACE receptor activity, and these links have played out in Covid patients.

Also, this disease kills people through cytokine storms - which are closely linked with glucose management, and 70% of Americans are overweight, 40% are outright obese and this doesn't include people who are normal weight and have other co-morbidities? Yes, the elderly are at the greatest overall risk of dying - not sure in which world that isn't true - but probably a strong 80% or more of the US population has co-morbidities that are linked with poor outcomes for Covid. In other words, the "at risk" group is somewhat of a miscalculation.

Good hygiene is the best defense. It is wise to take vitamin C and zinc. I would add in that there is a strong correlation proposed between Vitamin D insufficiency and having a severe or deadly outcome from Covid.

Also, it's ironic that most people seem to not care about the elderly because they are close to dying anyway - but the fact is that you can look at relative risk of death from Covid - comparing it to your chance of dying from other causes, and in some comparisons the greatest increases are in the 45-55 age group, with significant increases in the 35-45 age group. Is it a major concern? It's not doomsday for a 40 year old, but it's not to be taken as lightly as some people expect.

Not trying to go too far into the fear side of things - but I really believe most people have and continue to under-value the risk here.




I am not sure what reality you are living in - but I hope you are happy there. One thing - it's 6% in the US, not globally. Sorry for being US-centric. As I stated above, the US is kind of primed to do poorly with this, we have a less healthy population than many of the other countries that are seeing this.

Having said that, in regard to the anti-body studies, I am not sure what you would need to "falsify" these studies, which are making unreasonable claims. I mean, getting your test group by advertising a perceived incentive on Facebook is just the beginning of the flaws with that study. And the other studies didn't even attempt to get peer review - they went straight to the newspapers, which makes them news articles and not studies. And of course that doesn't even get into the data that suggests the anti-body tests return a number of false positives that alone would make the conclusions of the Stanford study highly questionable.

Regardless, you're choosing to place a high value on a study of roughly 3500 people who were less than randomly chosen from the population and you're placing that over a data set of over 1 million confirmed cases?

Further, think about the dramatic headlines from the Stanford study - "Covid infections could be 50-80X higher than we realize". Think about this from ANY logical angle. Do you really think that, in the US we have had over 110,000 infections at this point and only 1.5% of those people have shown up in the hospital? Do you REALLY believe that only 1.5-3% of the people who get this virus get sick enough to even go to the hospital and the other 97% is just asymptomatic? If so, what evidence are your really basing it on beyond a study that offered free Covid testing on Facebook to attract participants?

And even if it is 50,000,000 Americans that have been infected - That is just 0.17% death rate (about 84,000 Americans have died). Do you know any medical professionals? Ask them how many flu deaths they've seen in their career. Then ask them how many Covid deaths they've seen in the last 2 months. Then ask them if they think it's reasonable that this is just 70% more deadly than the flu. And if it is just 70% more deadly, how did the US achieve these numbers in just 2-3 months that go beyond the record setting flu season of 2018?

Now, the original reports out of China, if you want to trust any of that, claimed that 80% of the people who get it are not being reported. This, actually, could be reasonable. The CDC suspects a good 60% of flu cases go unreported - so we're not outside of the realm of possibility here. But we aren't saying, "Well, that 0.1% flu death rate isn't real because we didn't count all of the people who have it." Should we just ignore the data we have because we know it is imperfect and start jumping into unscientific studies that make unreasonable claims that don't at all align with reality because it helps us feel like the environment should adapt to us rather than we should adapt to the environment?

The fact of the matter is that 3 weeks ago, when the US death rates were in the 50,000's I was having this same debate with people who believed the US would have less than 100,000 deaths from this over the next year - using similar arguments to what you're using. Back then the confirmed data showed a 5% death rate and now it is at 6%. Our testing is improving, albeit still not enough - and we're getting a higher rate, not a lower one. We are now coming up on 85,000 deaths and the first wave isn't even over.

Countries like Sweden that everyone likes to point out for not having a lock down, have confirmed case death rates over 12%.

The data isn't getting better over time, it's getting worse.

Consider this- According to you, lay people on the Internet who can point out "Insufficiencies" are totally right about the studies being junk, than Stanford scientists who are and were, clearly sticking their necks out to run those studies and to publish those results. Are they perfect? No, I never suggested so. Are they a hint that the rate is lower? Absolutely. Have they been paid any attention to? Absolutely not. Why is that? Oh right, those Stanford blokes lost their mind and decided to risk public embarrassment by making useless claims. Makes sense, it's the doomporn enthusiasts that are correct.

Let me get this straight. Since the very beginning, it has been absolutely confirmed that a very high percentage of the cases are asymptomatic. So, the death rate must be lower than the confirmed one. Why is that important? Because it doesn't help the doomporn enthusiasts. Globally, we were flattening the curve, and then what happened? The curve went out the window. Now it's just preventing infections. That has no timetable, no possible timetable. Nobody is arguing against precautions. A full lockdown must be based on extraordinary data. Where is it? What do you hope to accomplish by showing that people have died? We don't know that? We don't know more will die? Is this Earth? It's obvious and simple- the goal was to avoid preventable deaths and we are, globally, no longer operating on that premise. The virus will find it's way to everybody eventually, if it hasn't already. Piling on economic destruction from the lockdown will end millions of lives. The UN has been warning of starvation in poor countries for quite some time, and I have been seeing it happen as well.

How much stimulus has the US passed already? Why couldn't your government find some money to run those antibody tests? Why couldn't mine? Because data wasn't important, why? I don't know. I don't care. The end result is that the lockdown began as a precautionary measure, the original goal is now nowhere in sight, the timetable can be extended indefinitely with arbitrary death figures and fearmongering, and the real case mortality rate is still not confirmed because we apparently don't have the will or the time to run those properly. Simultaneously, the economic destruction being wreaked is nowhere being accounted for, all manner of risk factors are up- but only one thing matters, all those despicable Covid deaths. In this environment, I find it incredible that all you can manage to do is talk up how many people are dying. This issue is so multifaceted, I think you are better than being a doomporn enthusiast. Not joking, I know you are, so act like it.

This entire deal has become a global clusterfuck where truth is hard to come by, govts. can't be trusted, and only one thing is certain- If nothing changes and fast? We will live like serfs. Maybe you are not as sensitive to that danger as I am. But you will be if nothing changes.
 

DrChicken

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Consider this- According to you, lay people on the Internet who can point out "Insufficiencies" are totally right about the studies being junk, than Stanford scientists who are and were, clearly sticking their necks out to run those studies and to publish those results. Are they perfect? No, I never suggested so. Are they a hint that the rate is lower? Absolutely. Have they been paid any attention to? Absolutely not. Why is that? Oh right, those Stanford blokes lost their mind and decided to risk public embarrassment by making useless claims. Makes sense, it's the doomporn enthusiasts that are correct.

Let me get this straight. Since the very beginning, it has been absolutely confirmed that a very high percentage of the cases are asymptomatic. So, the death rate must be lower than the confirmed one. Why is that important? Because it doesn't help the doomporn enthusiasts. Globally, we were flattening the curve, and then what happened? The curve went out the window. Now it's just preventing infections. That has no timetable, no possible timetable. Nobody is arguing against precautions. A full lockdown must be based on extraordinary data. Where is it? What do you hope to accomplish by showing that people have died? We don't know that? We don't know more will die? Is this Earth? It's obvious and simple- the goal was to avoid preventable deaths and we are, globally, no longer operating on that premise. The virus will find it's way to everybody eventually, if it hasn't already. Piling on economic destruction from the lockdown will end millions of lives. The UN has been warning of starvation in poor countries for quite some time, and I have been seeing it happen as well.

How much stimulus has the US passed already? Why couldn't your government find some money to run those antibody tests? Why couldn't mine? Because data wasn't important, why? I don't know. I don't care. The end result is that the lockdown began as a precautionary measure, the original goal is now nowhere in sight, the timetable can be extended indefinitely with arbitrary death figures and fearmongering, and the real case mortality rate is still not confirmed because we apparently don't have the will or the time to run those properly. Simultaneously, the economic destruction being wreaked is nowhere being accounted for, all manner of risk factors are up- but only one thing matters, all those despicable Covid deaths. In this environment, I find it incredible that all you can manage to do is talk up how many people are dying. This issue is so multifaceted, I think you are better than being a doomporn enthusiast. Not joking, I know you are, so act like it.

This entire deal has become a global clusterfuck where truth is hard to come by, govts. can't be trusted, and only one thing is certain- If nothing changes and fast? We will live like serfs. Maybe you are not as sensitive to that danger as I am. But you will be if nothing changes.
Very well put and exactly my sentiment.

What began with good intent has become something else
 
maximillia

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the best alternative I can think of is

keep nursing homes under strict guidelines

take high risk people out of workforce and put on disability benefits

take high risk children out of school-homeschool


let low risk people return to work and continue to ask for compliance of guidelines...with as many as possible working from home.
Quite possibly, the best we can do, and again, I am 100% peeved that these sorts of conclusions are being reached by lay people, like you and me. The data should have been analysed by the experts and they should have come up with a good compromise, like the kind you mention above. How can regular people suddenly become epidemiologists? Political corruption has completely ruined this disaster response, globally. It's just funny. And If you suggest these things, quite naturally people are skeptical and they will question your credentials for doing so, and they should, but that's what's funny. What does it say when it almost seems like your average Joe can deal with a pandemic better than the World Heath Organisation?
 
thebigt

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Quite possibly, the best we can do, and again, I am 100% peeved that these sorts of conclusions are being reached by lay people, like you and me. The data should have been analysed by the experts and they should have come up with a good compromise, like the kind you mention above. How can regular people suddenly become epidemiologists? Political corruption has completely ruined this disaster response, globally. It's just funny. And If you suggest these things, quite naturally people are skeptical and they will question your credentials for doing so, and they should, but that's what's funny. What does it say when it almost seems like your average Joe can deal with a pandemic better than the World Heath Organisation?
I know, right?

I am very disappointed in a wide array of people/organizations....politicians are always going to look to take advantage of bad situations like this, and I expected it from them them....but it seems like there is a element of politics being played by the medical community/organizations and I am pissed off they think americans are so stupid we don't see this.
 
Smont

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If you wanna look at this from another aspect, covid may be the best thing that's ever happened to the planet. Only humans are really suffering and it's only humans that destroy the planet. The smog and pollution has mostly cleared up. The sea turtles and endangered animals are repopulating, there's less litter with people not being all over the place. Maybe this is just mother nature saying go **** yourself lol
 
bruno.camilo

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If you wanna look at this from another aspect, covid may be the best thing that's ever happened to the planet. Only humans are really suffering and it's only humans that destroy the planet. The smog and pollution has mostly cleared up. The sea turtles and endangered animals are repopulating, there's less litter with people not being all over the place. Maybe this is just mother nature saying go **** yourself lol
No, this is China saying go Fock ur self
 

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What is the rush to lift the lockdowns? What fun is it to go anywhere, wear a mask, keep a six foot distance, and wash your hands nonstop?

It’s bad enough in a supermarket when someone isn’t wearing a mask and then you can’t go down that aisle. Who’s really going to go to a sit down restaurant and put the servers at risk?
 
maximillia

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What is the rush to lift the lockdowns? What fun is it to go anywhere, wear a mask, keep a six foot distance, and wash your hands nonstop?

It’s bad enough in a supermarket when someone isn’t wearing a mask and then you can’t go down that aisle. Who’s really going to go to a sit down restaurant and put the servers at risk?
If you can tell me at risk of what, then we will get somewhere.
 
justhere4comm

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If you can tell me at risk of what, then we will get somewhere.
Getting infected and passing it on to an exponential number of people who then have people at risk they live with. Maybe that?

It’s how a pandemic works.


 
maximillia

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Getting infected and passing it on to an exponential number of people who then have people at risk they live with. Maybe that?

It’s how a pandemic works.


Really? Thanks for telling me, didn't know. It's very interesting to know that you have to prevent getting infected so that you don't eventually pass it to someone way down the line, instead of people doing their best to self-isolate. Also, did you know the virus will get around everywhere? Strange thing. Microscopic. Are you suggesting it is possible to make sure the virus never reaches a certain person and the onus of that is on random strangers not getting infected, instead of said person self-isolating? Is that what you are saying? Is that how we deal with Pandemics?

What about herd immunity? Is that even going to exist or are people really hoping the disease just disappears? Or, is the idea to stay permanently at home? Those are the three options here. Which is it?

If only the ones who are at greater risk stayed home voluntarily, wouldn't that give the govt. more money to help them keep at home for longer? If everybody stays at home, the economic distress will make that impossible.
 
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maximillia

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The state of Georgia began reopening on April 22, and their numbers are no worse than your national average. Maybe Lockdowns aren't the holy grail people think they are. And that's all I am arguing against. The lockdowns. Take precautions, self-isolate, and all that, more power to you.

Whoever says life will never go back to normal, is supremely suspect. Many politicians are using this lockdown to indulge their personal power fantasies.
 
justhere4comm

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The state of Georgia began reopening on April 22, and their numbers are no worse than your national average. Maybe Lockdowns aren't the holy grail people think they are. And that's all I am arguing against. The lockdowns. Take precautions, self-isolate, and all that, more power to you.

Whoever says life will never go back to normal, is supremely suspect. Many politicians are using this lockdown to indulge their personal power fantasies.


They are not open.
Only very partially.
 

DrChicken

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The state of Georgia began reopening on April 22, and their numbers are no worse than your national average. Maybe Lockdowns aren't the holy grail people think they are. And that's all I am arguing against. The lockdowns. Take precautions, self-isolate, and all that, more power to you.

Whoever says life will never go back to normal, is supremely suspect. Many politicians are using this lockdown to indulge their personal power fantasies.
I agree with everything you’re saying, but a few of these guys are so addicted to the doomporn they can’t see anything else.


Why are we trusting faucci? He sent millions of dollars to the Wuhan lab.
He somehow managed to “predict” that the trump administration would have a huge outbreak to deal with...


Why the hell would we trust bill gates?
He’s literally recorded in 2010 saying he needs to reduce world population.. not to mention his vaccines in India made people sick, sterile, and die.

And can any one of you that are so gung-ho about this vaccine show me a previously successful vaccine made from RNA? You cannot, because it does not exist..

This vaccine will likely have the efficacy of the flu shot, which if you didn’t know is completely useless.
And if y’all are so scared the virus is going to mutate for round 2, the vaccine is further proven useless.


So we are supposed to sit inside without a job while our economy crumbles into nothing until these two devil worshiping child molesting scumbags with self interest first find a “cure”


The “solution” has now become worse than the problem
 
GreenMachineX

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I agree with everything you’re saying, but a few of these guys are so addicted to the doomporn they can’t see anything else.


Why are we trusting faucci? He sent millions of dollars to the Wuhan lab.
He somehow managed to “predict” that the trump administration would have a huge outbreak to deal with...


Why the hell would we trust bill gates?
He’s literally recorded in 2010 saying he needs to reduce world population.. not to mention his vaccines in India made people sick, sterile, and die.

And can any one of you that are so gung-ho about this vaccine show me a previously successful vaccine made from RNA? You cannot, because it does not exist..

This vaccine will likely have the efficacy of the flu shot, which if you didn’t know is completely useless.
And if y’all are so scared the virus is going to mutate for round 2, the vaccine is further proven useless.


So we are supposed to sit inside without a job while our economy crumbles into nothing until these two devil worshiping child molesting scumbags with self interest first find a “cure”


The “solution” has now become worse than the problem
🤔
 
SkRaw85

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I agree with everything you’re saying, but a few of these guys are so addicted to the doomporn they can’t see anything else.


Why are we trusting faucci? He sent millions of dollars to the Wuhan lab.
He somehow managed to “predict” that the trump administration would have a huge outbreak to deal with...


Why the hell would we trust bill gates?
He’s literally recorded in 2010 saying he needs to reduce world population.. not to mention his vaccines in India made people sick, sterile, and die.

And can any one of you that are so gung-ho about this vaccine show me a previously successful vaccine made from RNA? You cannot, because it does not exist..

This vaccine will likely have the efficacy of the flu shot, which if you didn’t know is completely useless.
And if y’all are so scared the virus is going to mutate for round 2, the vaccine is further proven useless.


So we are supposed to sit inside without a job while our economy crumbles into nothing until these two devil worshiping child molesting scumbags with self interest first find a “cure”


The “solution” has now become worse than the problem
CoNsPiRaCY!!!!!! Just take your vaccine and shoosh your mouth. The military will be “assisting” in dishing it out later this year. It works. We promise.
 

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Can you see how the media is now going for emotional appeal?
Why TF is greta thurnburg on CNN

She’s not a doctor
She’s a child. It’s because the liberals love her and this appeals to them.

Don’t get me wrong I agree with her stance on climate
We are killing the earth and something needs to change.

But if you think a child knows anything about a virus or epidemiology you’re sadly mistaken
 
justhere4comm

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We really do need someone in charge of this who's got experience.
Someone like Ivanka Trump or Jarod Kushner. They've both read books on the topic so, easy right?

Have you seen the Coronavirus Task force?
 
BamBam54

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Can you see how the media is now going for emotional appeal?
Why TF is greta thurnburg on CNN

She’s not a doctor
She’s a child. It’s because the liberals love her and this appeals to them.

Don’t get me wrong I agree with her stance on climate
We are killing the earth and something needs to change.

But if you think a child knows anything about a virus or epidemiology you’re sadly mistaken

Funny that you would say little Greta has no clue at all about virus epidemiology... but that she is somehow believable about something much bigger and more complex - like the entire geologic history of carbon in the atmosphere of planet earth!! Really - think about what you are saying for a moment. :)


On another wacky moment in virus reality - I had a delivery come into the job site today and the truck driver was eager to share his covid thoughts. Suuuuuuuuper duper conspiracy stuff combined with mega religious ultra Christian spin. Wild!! Everything was woven into this tale - 5G, bill gates, total fake virus to collapse the economy, install digital currency, implant chips, 6ft distance so the RFID chips don't get conflicting signals when tracking, mark of the beast. Everything. Wow! And he was dead serious. Trying to share info and save the human race. Like little Greta.

I weep for the world we once knew....
 
HIT4ME

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Funny that you would say little Greta has no clue at all about virus epidemiology... but that she is somehow believable about something much bigger and more complex - like the entire geologic history of carbon in the atmosphere of planet earth!! Really - think about what you are saying for a moment. :)


On another wacky moment in virus reality - I had a delivery come into the job site today and the truck driver was eager to share his covid thoughts. Suuuuuuuuper duper conspiracy stuff combined with mega religious ultra Christian spin. Wild!! Everything was woven into this tale - 5G, bill gates, total fake virus to collapse the economy, install digital currency, implant chips, 6ft distance so the RFID chips don't get conflicting signals when tracking, mark of the beast. Everything. Wow! And he was dead serious. Trying to share info and save the human race. Like little Greta.

I weep for the world we once knew....
lol - did he start off with, "I know this guy who has a family member up near the top ....I can't tell you where he works or what position he is in, or say anything that might actually make this credible, because he may lose his job - but it was OK that he told me, the guy who will go spreading it around to strangers."

Of course, this truck driver believes it is ridiculous that he has all the simple answers and the people in charge can't figure any of it out, right? They are just too stupid and the truck driver is the genius, I am sure.
 
Smont

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I'm not by any means anti vaccine, but would you really want to take a vaccine or give your kids a vaccine that you have no clue what it might do to you or them 10-15 years down the road? I can't do it. It just seems too risky to me. Now if I was 50+ years old, I might have a different outlook.
 
BamBam54

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I'm not by any means anti vaccine, but would you really want to take a vaccine or give your kids a vaccine that you have no clue what it might do to you or them 10-15 years down the road? I can't do it. It just seems too risky to me. Now if I was 50+ years old, I might have a different outlook.
I am certainly thankful for the important and effective vaccines that pretty much rid the world of things much worse than covid - small pox, polio, measles, etc.

But I also worry about medical injections that are rushed. Thinking of the bad batch of swine flu vaccine that may have given people Guillain Barre syndrome.

Thus my preference for those in the least vulnerable group (the vast majority) to get through this the old fashioned way... surviving and developing the antibodies. Thinking Rand Paul style (with better neighbors)
 
justhere4comm

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You mean "Dr" Rand Paul, that fraud? He had to start his own medical board to pass the boards which is now defunct and not recognized by Kentucky. I'd see his neighbor for my optic needs before him.
 

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lol - did he start off with, "I know this guy who has a family member up near the top ....I can't tell you where he works or what position he is in, or say anything that might actually make this credible, because he may lose his job - but it was OK that he told me, the guy who will go spreading it around to strangers."

Of course, this truck driver believes it is ridiculous that he has all the simple answers and the people in charge can't figure any of it out, right? They are just too stupid and the truck driver is the genius, I am sure.
Keep watching your doomporn.

I told you the facts
I’m not going to expose my doctor cousin.. what do you not understand about that?

If you honestly think I made up a story to be “right” on a small steroid forum you’re dumber than a box of rocks

I never said greta was right about carbon Emissions, I said we as humans are destroying the earth. Is it so hard to see the plastic building up In the oceans and over poaching etc etc?
Or are you blind to this also?

Keep your blinders on, don’t you worry your little head. The trustworthy government will keep you safe while spoon feeding you unemployment 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
 
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BamBam54

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You mean "Dr" Rand Paul, that fraud? He had to start his own medical board to pass the boards which is now defunct and not recognized by Kentucky. I'd see his neighbor for my optic needs before him.
I am not referencing Rand Paul for any medical expertise or genius. I am simply saying he had the covid, survived, and is now happily running around without a mask or any special permission slips... protected by antibodies and living the dream!
 
justhere4comm

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So, he's not contagious anymore? By who's proclamation? His? Because that has yet to be determined.
 
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So, he's not contagious anymore? By who's proclamation? His? Because that has yet to be determined.

Hard to prove a negative, when in fact no person who has ever caught corona has ever become reinfected again. Couple million cases so far, has NEVER happened. Turns out the claim from South Korea was a mistake, false positives. None of those patients in fact were ever infected a second time and none of them ever became infectious again. Ever.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-southkorea-explain/explainer-south-korean-findings-suggest-reinfected-coronavirus-cases-are-false-positives-idUSKBN22J0HR

A better question to you might be 'by whose proclamation' was it determined that anyone infected and recovered has ever been proven to continue to spread the virus thereafter. Again, couple of million cases so far. Where is YOUR proof? I understand why you might want to keep the country shut down until someone can prove the impossible... but this argument isn't it.
 
justhere4comm

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What makes you think he can't be a carrier. <---- I'm not talking about false positives here.
While we are at it, the WH is using a test that is 50% accurate at best... not the 'best'.

That's the point. Right? He's being reckless IMHO and putting others at risk at least by example. I get it. He is towing the political line set by Trump. No mask or you appear weak. Ultimately, he is showing bad form, and setting a bad example for others. Taking this point even further to a higher level:

Kayleigh McEnany says they had a "2018 Pandemic Preparedness Report" that was better than President Obama's plan. But then they didn't use them, AT ALL??? What's worse: not having a plan, or having one and not even f*cking using it? Asking for 85,000 families.
 

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