11kt, Epi Andro / R Andro, Dermacrine Stack

anthon88

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Hey guys,

I finally think I decided on a stack outside the realm of natty supplements and wanted your opinions. This is going to be a fairly long post as I will be giving some background information.

I’ve posted a few times with questions about hormonal supplements and potential stacks but never pulled the trigger. Last spring, I used Evomuse Androlotion and stepped outside the natty realm. Through my research and talking to forum members, it seemed like a no brainer to use it....localized effect with no side effects. I added it in at the tail end of my cut and throughly enjoyed it. Then that June after more and more research and conversation I decided to try something mild for a little edge. I ran stanoplex for 8 weeks and really enjoyed that. During the summer, I lift hard but my diet takes a hit. I try to keep my weight down the best I can while enjoying myself at the same time. Plenty of bbqs, eating out, drinks, etc. Despite all that, I still had pretty good results but had I used it during my cut when my diet was insanely tight and cardio game was strong, it really would have shined.

I basically had no negative effects outside of some joint pain forwards the last few weeks. A lot of that was also due to the fact of was running Arnold’s Blueprint to Mass program as I wanted something really intense to justify my cycle and reap everything I could. I was adding intensity each session whether it was weight increase, reps, less rest time, etc. The insane number of sets (Arm day was in the mid 70s), frequency (6 days a week) and intensity definitely took its toll.

I decided on an OTC pct and it went great. No bloodwork to prove anything though. Libido was excellent through the run and throughout my pct and after. Strong like usual (I am 33 years old by the way). Pct was Mtest, PCT Assist, reduce xt, inhibit e, inhibit p, Anabolic Effect, and Annacylus XT. My pct turned into a 16 week natty stack which also went excellent. I also used Cel Cycle Assist as my on cycle support. I almost didn’t cause of saw palmetto and the fact epiandro relies on DHT. Steve from SNS and some other members didn’t think it would be an issue. What are your thoughts going forward?

So after months of researching and debating what to try next, I think I decided. Originally I wanted to run the andros but decided to pass for now. I usually like trying one thing at a time but it seemed like they all had a synergy and should be run together. For instance just trying 1 Andro would lead to lethargy so 4 Andro should be ran with it. But then 4 andro has its potential sides to worry about. So I scrapped that for now and took a more mild route.

I will be running this during my cut in the spring so 11kt (ultra 11) seemed like a solid choice. Having already run epiandro I wanted to add that in as well. Although I loved stanoplex, I wanted to try Ultra Hard to experiment with a topical and also because of the R Andro which is supposed to work well with the epi. I think I will purchase a bottle of stanoplex as well because I liked the pre workout dosing along with the Vaso 6 and because people also dose Epiandro higher than 600 mgs sometimes I figured it would be a good option. Finally, I wanted to add dermacrine as a test base of sorts. I’ve been looking at this product for years but never tried it and it seems like it would fit well. My only issue is I’ll be introducing a few new compounds at once so it will be harder to pinpoint what’s doing what.

As far as pct, I know the forum is all about a real serm. Some other highly ranked members also said an OTC pct would suffice. All these compounds are mild so I haven’t made my mind up yet. I have 2 bottles of the new Kings Pct which is supposed to be a natural serm with some other goodies. If I were to use Clomid, would I start my otc pct at the same time or after? OTC pct is going to include a lot of things and also transition into a natty stack. Haven’t decided on the exact layout or which products but they will be pulled from this list: Kings Pct, anabolic effect, anacylus xt, mtest, inhibit e or virtus, pct assist, optimize t, trueshred, inhibit p and other potential natty anabolics SNS comes out with. Again to reiterate, not using ALL of that, just some sort of combination. I definitely wanna use anabolic effect again but the Korean Mistletoe overlaps with kings pct. I also have quite a few bottles of Androlotion and I know people have used that during pct because it’s localized. However, I’m pretty sure with any localized topical there is some spillover so I wouldn’t want to risk that I don’t think.....I just loved the way it helped melt fat on my stomach. Which leads me to another question....when using a cycle during a cut, what do you do calorie was in pct? I know in a standard bulking cycle, you’d want to keep your calories higher to hold on to as much muscle as possible, but during a cut I guess there would almost have to be a perfect balance as to not lose muscle but also not get fat in the process. I don’t think it matters as much with the cycle I laid out as it seems they are more suited for cutting, hardening to begin with.

So the cycle would be 8 weeks followed by a pct and 16 week natty stack. I know that was a lot to read but I’m pretty sure I included everything I wanted to say. Appreciate anyone who reads the whole thing and anyone who replies with their input, suggestions, and feedback. Thanks!
 
thebigt

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if running at effective doses that is a lot of lotion...here is a recommendation-run the ultra eleven at full dose daily[i would go 2 months, 2 bottles] same with the ultra hard-maybe just use the dermacrine 3-4x weekly. i found adding in a oral epiandro pre-workout was a nice boost on top of the ultra hard, i used alpha gainz alpha stano.

i can run 3 black series lotions on same cycle due to going on 2 decades of experience with transdermals, if you are a experienced transdermal user then by all means go for all 3 at full doses....i just want to give you a headsup

btw-thank you for purchasing iconic formulations products, much appreciated!!!
 
cheftepesh1

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if running at effective doses that is a lot of lotion...here is a recommendation-run the ultra eleven at full dose daily[i would go 2 months, 2 bottles] same with the ultra hard-maybe just use the dermacrine 3-4x weekly. i found adding in a oral epiandro pre-workout was a nice boost on top of the ultra hard, i used alpha gainz alpha stano.

i can run 3 black series lotions on same cycle due to going on 2 decades of experience with transdermals, if you are a experienced transdermal user then by all means go for all 3 at full doses....i just want to give you a headsup

btw-thank you for purchasing iconic formulations products, much appreciated!!!
This is great advice. It’s important to make the most of the lotion you use to not waste.
 
anthon88

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if running at effective doses that is a lot of lotion...here is a recommendation-run the ultra eleven at full dose daily[i would go 2 months, 2 bottles] same with the ultra hard-maybe just use the dermacrine 3-4x weekly. i found adding in a oral epiandro pre-workout was a nice boost on top of the ultra hard, i used alpha gainz alpha stano.

i can run 3 black series lotions on same cycle due to going on 2 decades of experience with transdermals, if you are a experienced transdermal user then by all means go for all 3 at full doses....i just want to give you a headsup

btw-thank you for purchasing iconic formulations products, much appreciated!!!
Thanks for reading and responding. I’ve tackled multiple topicals at once before (not hormonals) and had no issues other than it starting to become a chore near the end lol. Just curious why you only recommend dermacrine 3 or 4 times a week? What type of “experience” are you referring to? Just want to make sure I’m understanding what you’re talking about. I use different areas of my body and try not to repeat the same spots if possible. I use gloves so i don’t waste a lot of product on my hands also.

What’s the deal as far as accidentally spreading these to other people? Would an hour or so before touching suffice?

Also, what are your recommendations for pct? Do you think over the counter suffices or you think this combination justifies Clomid?

Thanks again.
 
anthon88

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This is great advice. It’s important to make the most of the lotion you use to not waste.
I hear you, no one likes waste. I’ve run a bunch of apex alchemy stuff together along with androlotion and had no issues other than having to get up 20 minutes earlier to apply everything and let them dry a bit lol
 
thebigt

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Thanks for reading and responding. I’ve tackled multiple topicals at once before (not hormonals) and had no issues other than it starting to become a chore near the end lol. Just curious why you only recommend dermacrine 3 or 4 times a week? What type of “experience” are you referring to? Just want to make sure I’m understanding what you’re talking about. I use different areas of my body and try not to repeat the same spots if possible. I use gloves so i don’t waste a lot of product on my hands also.

What’s the deal as far as accidentally spreading these to other people? Would an hour or so before touching suffice?

Also, what are your recommendations for pct? Do you think over the counter suffices or you think this combination justifies Clomid?

Thanks again.
4-5 pumps of the black series and dermacrine is a considerable amount of lotion-just want you to be aware of this. not trying to discourage you at all.
 
anthon88

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4-5 pumps of the black series and dermacrine is a considerable amount of lotion-just want you to be aware of this. not trying to discourage you at all.
Oh yeah, I understood what you meant, no worries. I can split the dosing up or even the products during the day to make it easier as well right? Any feedback regarding pct for this run?
 
thebigt

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Oh yeah, I understood what you meant, no worries. I can split the dosing up or even the products during the day to make it easier as well right? Any feedback regarding pct for this run?
@cheftepesh1
 
cheftepesh1

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Would you start your test boosters and kings pct (natty serm) the same time as Clomid or wait till your done with Clomid then start the natty stack?
Me I would start same time
 
anthon88

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These supps are all on sale currently.
@thebigt

I will be placing my order in the next day or so taking advantage of all the deals available. Was thinking of adding Virtus on pct as an AI. Heard its pretty powerful. What are your thoughts on that? Actually, if anyone has the time and doesn’t mind re reading what I wrote about my pct/natty stack in general it would be much appreciated. Running the main stack 8 weeks and then pcting into a nice 12-16 week natty stack. Money is not a factor here, looking to do this right and have some fun in the process.
 
anthon88

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What does dermacrine do for you? Felt nothing on it
Honestly, I don’t know cause I’ve never used it. Looked at it a few years ago. People use it as a test base of sorts so I figured it would be good for this light cycle I’m doing. I know it’s more effective for older people; I’m only 33 so depending on what my dhea levels are will determine how effective it is.
 
thebigt

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@thebigt

I will be placing my order in the next day or so taking advantage of all the deals available. Was thinking of adding Virtus on pct as an AI. Heard its pretty powerful. What are your thoughts on that? Actually, if anyone has the time and doesn’t mind re reading what I wrote about my pct/natty stack in general it would be much appreciated. Running the main stack 8 weeks and then pcting into a nice 12-16 week natty stack. Money is not a factor here, looking to do this right and have some fun in the process.
Virtus IS very strong...BUT for PCT my preference would be sustain alpha and either neuro AET or invictus....

i would take a look at the iconic formulations TRS testosterone recovery stack.

if looking to stock up on iron legion or iconic formulations products now is the time--buy one get one for 70% off.
 
Smont

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Here's my take on pct, you can have low test and still have high libido and feel fine.

I don't like OTC pct stuff because it does very little to raise testosterone levels.

There are a ton of ppl who never have ran a pct despite being on and off gear for decades, most of the guys I know who do that say they never had a problem, but the problem I see is in-between every cycle they run they go back to looking the same they did before the cycle, then they go on cycle and don't progress any further then the previous cycle. So they don't ever make any long term progress. That doesn't mean that a pct would solve that problem tho.

Everyone can do what they want but here is the thing I don't get. Guys spend like $150-200 buying all these OTC products to use for pct when they can get a serm for less then $50 that will do more then all of the OTC supplements combined, so it's just a no brainer to get the serm. Better results at a fraction of the cost.

Or get on testosterone and never pct😜
 
thebigt

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Here's my take on pct, you can have low test and still have high libido and feel fine.

I don't like OTC pct stuff because it does very little to raise testosterone levels.

There are a ton of ppl who never have ran a pct despite being on and off gear for decades, most of the guys I know who do that say they never had a problem, but the problem I see is in-between every cycle they run they go back to looking the same they did before the cycle, then they go on cycle and don't progress any further then the previous cycle. So they don't ever make any long term progress. That doesn't mean that a pct would solve that problem tho.

Everyone can do what they want but here is the thing I don't get. Guys spend like $150-200 buying all these OTC products to use for pct when they can get a serm for less then $50 that will do more then all of the OTC supplements combined, so it's just a no brainer to get the serm. Better results at a fraction of the cost.

Or get on testosterone and never pct😜
kind of ironic that if it weren't for the OTC supplement owners who sponsor this forum there would be a forum for you to knock their LEGAL products-eh? :unsure:

btw-you are in the SUPPLEMENT section, not the anabolic section.:)
 
anthon88

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Virtus IS very strong...BUT for PCT my preference would be sustain alpha and either neuro AET or invictus....

i would take a look at the iconic formulations TRS testosterone recovery stack.

if looking to stock up on iron legion or iconic formulations products now is the time--buy one get one for 70% off.
Maybe I will stock up on some of that regardless because of the deals. I’ve used sustain alpha and invictus in the past with good results. I’ll definitely be using some CEL/SNS stuff in my pct so I’m just trying to brainstorm here. Mtest, inhibit E, and reduce xt are all high quality, and cost effective products I’ve used successfully in the past. Also would give me a nice break from topicals lol
 
Smont

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kind of ironic that if it weren't for the OTC supplement owners who sponsor this forum there would be a forum for you to knock their LEGAL products-eh? :unsure:

btw-you are in the SUPPLEMENT section, not the anabolic section.:)
Big t, I love you man but you take everything I say and make it sound like I'm trying to bash the supplement companies and the legal products which I'm not. I buy products from the sponsors and use many of the legal products. My post was simply talking about over the counter stuff versus a serm for recovering natural testosterone production. The serm beats out all the natural stuff, the OTC pct stuff is more like a support supp for the serm in pct.

I'm in no way trying to bash the companies or say any of our sponsors produce bad products, not in the slightest.
 
anthon88

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Here's my take on pct, you can have low test and still have high libido and feel fine.

I don't like OTC pct stuff because it does very little to raise testosterone levels.

There are a ton of ppl who never have ran a pct despite being on and off gear for decades, most of the guys I know who do that say they never had a problem, but the problem I see is in-between every cycle they run they go back to looking the same they did before the cycle, then they go on cycle and don't progress any further then the previous cycle. So they don't ever make any long term progress. That doesn't mean that a pct would solve that problem tho.

Everyone can do what they want but here is the thing I don't get. Guys spend like $150-200 buying all these OTC products to use for pct when they can get a serm for less then $50 that will do more then all of the OTC supplements combined, so it's just a no brainer to get the serm. Better results at a fraction of the cost.

Or get on testosterone and never pct😜
I appreciate you providing me with a different insight. What you said about having low T but high libido meaning you’re not actually recovered. However, after training my whole life and only using natty supplements, I definitely can tell what works and what doesn’t. While not as powerful as gear and such, there has definitely been some great advancements in the world of natural muscle builders.

I think what turns people off of the serms is sourcing, the fact that RS chemicals are a crapshoot because legally they can’t be tested for human consumption, and the toxicity and potential sides from them. Now if someone is running a highly suppressive, toxic cycle and is afraid of a serm I can see the issue but when it comes to more mild stuff where suppression doesn’t seem to always occur of if it does it’s very minor (like my stack for example) people might want to avoid them.

When it comes to my training and diet I have a pretty good understanding of how it all works as I think I am definitely close to my genetic potential. I want to start to take things to the next level but ultimately am still concerned about health and longevity which is why I’m sticking to mild compounds and still utilizing effective natty supplements. You definitely gave me something to think about though.
 
sns8778

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I wanted to follow along but I don't agree with some of the things being said in the thread so I'm limited to how much I can help or contribute without it likely turning into an argument or disagreement.

Here are just a few overall thoughts:
  • Your last PCT turned natty stack was an awesome stack and I'm glad that you were very pleased with the results.
  • The premise of an 8 week cycle followed by PCT and a 16 week natty stack is fine and should be a fun run for you and you have some good options for the natural part and we'll have some more cool things coming out by then.
  • If you're looking for a natural SERM/test booster, I think there will be a new product out by the time you do your cycle that you'll be very pleased with and would probably like to use.
  • You mentioned a lot of SNS and CEL products for the natty part of the stack and we have a lot of options and will have a lot more to choose from out by then as well. You mentioned for options: Anabolic Effect, Anacyclus XT, M-Test, Inhibit-E, PCT Assist, Optimize-T, and Inhibit-P. All of those are great options and we'll also have out Anabolic XT, Phosphatidic Acid XT, Recomp 20, a natural serm/test booster, and several other cool products by then to choose from as well.
I'm glad to help in any way that I can but think I made it to the thread too late after a few things had already been said that I don't agree with to be able to contribute much to the ongoing discussion.
 
thebigt

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@thebigt

I will be placing my order in the next day or so taking advantage of all the deals available. Was thinking of adding Virtus on pct as an AI. Heard its pretty powerful. What are your thoughts on that? Actually, if anyone has the time and doesn’t mind re reading what I wrote about my pct/natty stack in general it would be much appreciated. Running the main stack 8 weeks and then pcting into a nice 12-16 week natty stack. Money is not a factor here, looking to do this right and have some fun in the process.
oh yeah, forgot to thank you for specifically tagging me.


HAPPY THANKSGIVING :)
 
anthon88

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I wanted to follow along but I don't agree with some of the things being said in the thread so I'm limited to how much I can help or contribute without it likely turning into an argument or disagreement.

Here are just a few overall thoughts:
  • Your last PCT turned natty stack was an awesome stack and I'm glad that you were very pleased with the results.
  • The premise of an 8 week cycle followed by PCT and a 16 week natty stack is fine and should be a fun run for you and you have some good options for the natural part and we'll have some more cool things coming out by then.
  • If you're looking for a natural SERM/test booster, I think there will be a new product out by the time you do your cycle that you'll be very pleased with and would probably like to use.
  • You mentioned a lot of SNS and CEL products for the natty part of the stack and we have a lot of options and will have a lot more to choose from out by then as well. You mentioned for options: Anabolic Effect, Anacyclus XT, M-Test, Inhibit-E, PCT Assist, Optimize-T, and Inhibit-P. All of those are great options and we'll also have out Anabolic XT, Phosphatidic Acid XT, Recomp 20, a natural serm/test booster, and several other cool products by then to choose from as well.
I'm glad to help in any way that I can but think I made it to the thread too late after a few things had already been said that I don't agree with to be able to contribute much to the ongoing discussion.
Always appreciate your feedback and insights Steve!
 
KvanH

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Drawing blood and having a hormonal panel before and on the latter part of the cycle would tell you much more, than anyone can guesstimate.
 
LeanEngineer

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Drawing blood and having a hormonal panel before and on the latter part of the cycle would tell you much more, than anyone can guesstimate.
Agreed. That's always the best route to go so you know for sure what you're levels are normally and post.
 
anthon88

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Drawing blood and having a hormonal panel before and on the latter part of the cycle would tell you much more, than anyone can guesstimate.
Agreed. That's always the best route to go so you know for sure what you're levels are normally and post.
Completely agree with you guys; however, my Dr. refused to check my hormone levels when I went for a check up 2 years ago after not being to the dr for probably 10 years or so. He was a real ass and went on a tangent about how he doesn't do HRT, etc etc and I was like I just want a baseline....I am in my 30s now so I think it's an important move going forward. He still refused. For all he knew I could have had a limp noodle and severe depression and lethargy but he never even asked if I had symptoms. Unfortunately, NJ is also one of the few states where you can't order your own blood work either. I switched my Dr a few weeks ago but they can't see me until January and I am going to try and get them to check it then. I'll probably have to lie and make it seem like I have symptoms of low T cause I bet they will fight me on it as well.
 
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Completely agree with you guys; however, my Dr. refused to check my hormone levels when I went for a check up 2 years ago after not being to the dr for probably 10 years or so. He was a real ass and went on a tangent about how he doesn't do HRT, etc etc and I was like I just want a baseline....I am in my 30s now so I think it's an important move going forward. He still refused. For all he knew I could have had a limp noodle and severe depression and lethargy but he never even asked if I had symptoms. Unfortunately, NJ is also one of the few states where you can't order your own blood work either. I switched my Dr a few weeks ago but they can't see me until January and I am going to try and get them to check it then. I'll probably have to lie and make it seem like I have symptoms of low T cause I bet they will fight me on it as well.
Ok. That's sad to hear and weird to be honest. Are there any online clinics you could send a blood sample taken yourself? 🤔 It may be that they'll need a big enough of a sample size though to do the tests, so taking the sample by yourself isn't as trivial as taking a "finger-prick" sample. I've seen some discount codes for blood tests thrown around here, but maybe it's a service where you have to go to the lab and have blood drawn there.
 
anthon88

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Ok. That's sad to hear and weird to be honest. Are there any online clinics you could send a blood sample taken yourself? 🤔 It may be that they'll need a big enough of a sample size though to do the tests, so taking the sample by yourself isn't as trivial as taking a "finger-prick" sample. I've seen some discount codes for blood tests thrown around here, but maybe it's a service where you have to go to the lab and have blood drawn there.
I’ve found a few different places that sell these blood tests and then you bring them to a lab. The problem is stupid NJ is one of the few states where the lab won’t run it for you without a referral from your dr. If it doesn’t work out in January I’m going to try and find a local hrt clinic and see if I can get it tested through them.
 

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