18 y/o bloodwork (test, free test)
- Thread starter Aoba
- Start date
Aoba
Member
:frustrate
maybe Dr. John could chime in as well, the doc also has the lab results for estrogen. I'm gonna scan once i get the hard copy in late july.
when i asked what he thought of my 441 he said "why? where did you want it to be?" i said i didnt know lol. But i wouldnt mind being in the 800-1000 range at least. :/
Aoba
Member
fasted @ 8:30am
JanSz
Well-known member
You test is low, do not let anybody tell you otherwise.
To find out why, you have to do blood tests.
The more items you will test the more chance you have finding what is out of line.
There is lots of reasons why things are not as they should.
I post oftem my long test.
It is up to you to take action.
Expect lot of resistance from doctors.
Also your mind may be working agains you.
Get as much knowledge as you can so you are aware of the possiblities.
Good luck.
To find out why, you have to do blood tests.
The more items you will test the more chance you have finding what is out of line.
There is lots of reasons why things are not as they should.
I post oftem my long test.
It is up to you to take action.
Expect lot of resistance from doctors.
Also your mind may be working agains you.
Get as much knowledge as you can so you are aware of the possiblities.
Good luck.
Aoba
Member
i have my regular "checkup" on july 25th...any advice for starting the convo without making it sound like i want juice or something? Last time i came in a year ago he lectured me on how bad creatine was...oh man...dunno how this will work...:think:
Any starter convo ideas about this that you have would be great...
JanSz
Well-known member
This topic usualy is called here : how to find doctor.
#1 it is not easy.
Read story of other people.
Educate yourself, read two years worth of posts here.
Strart with "stickies", (Sticky Threads)
Go to
lef.org
read their "protocols.
You will have a confidence and knowledge when talking to a doctor.
Go see dr John, he will definitely take your problem seriously.
allthingsmale.com
xcendo
Member
Aoba, I don't recommend jumping immediately to the TRT solution. I'm 19 and recently tested 336, so I feel the pain. You might want to research and discuss the possibilities out there for boosting your HPTA and natural testosterone production before you shut down the show and switch to exogenous hormone. It *is* basically a lifetime commitment...
JanSz
Well-known member
OTOH, do you really want to spend the rest of your (shortened) life with TT=339 and shortly less than that.
Including:
depression
high cholesterol
quite few other
xcendo
Member
No, I desperately want to correct my testosterone levels. But those results may be reflective of 5+ months of caloric restriction and 4+ years of insufficient sleep (insomnia has been a huge problem). So in my case (and, upon careful reflection of things like diet and sleep, maybe Aoba's, too), there may be lifestyle changes and drug and supplement options that can have a huge impact on improving the HPTA function. What do you think?
JanSz
Well-known member
Good idea, old book.
IIRC, dr Shippen is about to publish new book.
From some of his previous presentations,
there is DVD where Dr Shippen describes his approach.
If anyone know how to get it, please post.
Aoba
Member
If i find my estradiol is in the upper end of the normal range could that be it and maybe a script of .25mg Arimidex ED would fix it...i know its not that simple but is TRT the only real solution in my case? If i could get it up to 750/800 that would be awesome.
KSman
Member
If your E2 is up, I would expect to see some body fat issues with fat deposit patterns on the gut and butt.
Yes, use of an AI would make sense if your E2 levels are suppressing LH/FSH and T production.
And accidents or blows to the head?
Any damage to the testes?
That amount of arimidex is more typical of those using gear. Even with TRT doses, 1mg/wk is often enough. With lower T, you need less arimidex and with more T, you need more. So you would not have a starting dose that high. But hard to say without E2 numbers, body weight, % body fat and info on body fat distribution.
Some young guys have low T, perhaps skinny and low amounts of body hair, thin or sparse beards. Just the way things are and thats normal from a statistical point of view.
If E2 is up and you lower it, T will go up as the negative feedback of the E2 is removed. From a libido point if view, 17-20 is often quoted as an optimal level. Libido is a very good barometer for what your body and brain are reacting to a particular balance of T:E. Libido responses to hormone levels can be much faster than things like mood, attitude, energy, depression etc. Those changes can be very slow and thus are not good response indicators.
Correcting E first makes a lot of sense as something to do before contemplating TRT. As your T levels are not below reference ranges, many Doctors would hesitate to do anything.
AAA
New member
Just a quick question. Why would you even consider returning to this Dr.? From your own story you say he is incompetant. My best advice is to try somewhere else........ok anywhere else! Look at the board posts, very few of us struck gold with the first try. You have already wasted time with Dr. Dumb A$$. First visit shame on HIM second visit shame on YOU! jmho
KSman
Member
Yes! What is the history of that? new issue, on going?
Get a copy of the lab work from your Doctor, always get and retain for your records.
Aoba
Member
its been there for a while but i'm experiencing some tenderness from it. I'll post the records once i get them.
pmgamer18
Well-known member
Do get a copy of this test and post your units and ranges and tell us about your diet do you do SOY or workout to much with out resting your body. Do you live a life of stress or do you drink and drug.
Bungloid48
New member
I'm 19 and have a total T of 241. I can still get erections gain muscle mass but have severe fatigue and brain fog.
My treatement is being delayed because the doc is trying to find the root cause versus simply giving me TRT. An MRI is on it's way but other than that... I don't see what else it could be.
Anyway, it blows my mind how people can complain about having T levels around the 500 mark. Stop complaining god damnit. I've never had mine higher than 300 and people are giving me **** for saying it's "low".
My treatement is being delayed because the doc is trying to find the root cause versus simply giving me TRT. An MRI is on it's way but other than that... I don't see what else it could be.
Anyway, it blows my mind how people can complain about having T levels around the 500 mark. Stop complaining god damnit. I've never had mine higher than 300 and people are giving me **** for saying it's "low".
xcendo
Member
Same sort of story here. As I mentioned above, I'm 19 and came up with 336, but because it was two hours after I woke up, my endo wants me to retest earlier in the morning and only after those results will he consider MRI's of my pituitary and balls. Then, if there is an apparent problem, he vaguely suggested that "we'll have to give you some testosterone back."
Erections are fine (morning wood isn't too frequent, though) and muscle mass and strength come on easily, but low libido, bad fatigue, definite brain fog, persistent anxiety, very low threshold for stress, low sperm volume, and had to get surgery for pubertal gynecomastia. It's clear that I would REALLY benefit from higher test, especially psychologically and socially, and it could do wonders for my quality of life and longevity (wrt my stress problems), but my endo still insists on putting me through this entire ordeal.
Erections are fine (morning wood isn't too frequent, though) and muscle mass and strength come on easily, but low libido, bad fatigue, definite brain fog, persistent anxiety, very low threshold for stress, low sperm volume, and had to get surgery for pubertal gynecomastia. It's clear that I would REALLY benefit from higher test, especially psychologically and socially, and it could do wonders for my quality of life and longevity (wrt my stress problems), but my endo still insists on putting me through this entire ordeal.
bigrick345
New member
when i was 18 (almost 5 years ago) i had my total testosterone tested at 250. I have no idea what it is now but i have a completely normal sex drive, had a sperm count high enough to qualify as a donor (barely) and make lbm gains, so perhaps you got tested at a time close to when you ejaculated, which could explain your levels.
nallepuh
New member
I cant believe u guys are incorouging this man to persue trt when he actually says he has no issues! So 441 may not be as high as the average 18 year old but isent that what ranges are for ffs?
Lab tests are made to confirm symptoms! not to give u a reason for treating something that is not even there in the 1st place. I think yr giving this young guy the wrong idea! just my opinon.
Cheers
pmgamer18
Well-known member
nallepuh your right to many things cause low T his Estradiol can be to high and just getting this down will bring levels up. Over training and working out to much will strain the adrenals fix this your levels come back up. Bottom line is find out why your levels are this low first if you find something fix it and retest. If you jump on TRT you will have a very hard time finding out why your low and just going on TRT is there is something wrong your not going to feel 100%.
JanSz
Well-known member
Phil; you are right, first figure out what is the actual problem, then treat it. Slapping T right at the beiginning masks other important (possibly primary) issues.
But the frequent problem is that many people are looking for somebody clairvoyant to fix them up.
They do not provide information, tests.
Sometimes money/insurance is a problem.
Or doctor is not right for the job.
Or lack of discipline and patience.
.
nallepuh
New member
I think if persuing trt then it would definatly be best to figure out why u are low in the first place, i think every1 will sign on this. My point was that if its not broken why try to fix it at all? If u feelt great and had no issues what so ever why would u go looking for problems to fix, it makes no sence. And most perfectly healthy persons will have a value out of range if u do enough testing, this is probably why doctors dont tend to react with the same enthusiasm as the patient when seeing the results.
I think once u have established that you have a problem u tend to get fixed on numbers alone. Hoping that fixing the numbers will take care of the problem, and in many cases it obviously does. If i felt perfectly fine but still had the same low numbers i would not persue HRT any further and i fail to c a good reason why any1 should.
KSman
Member
heart/arterial disease from endothelial dysfunction
insulin resistance
thin wrinkly skin
prostate enlargement BPH
belly fat, inability to loose fat, syndrome-X aka metabolic disorder
lean tissue (muscle) loss, instability/balance problems and falling
bone loss and fractures from the above
loss of height
loss of appetite - malnutrition
passivity
social withdrawal
co-deficiencies of pregnenolone & DHEA that can be treated as part of HRT/TRT
probably a bunch of other stuff
The above can occur without an obvious sense of unwellness.
Some might not think that ED and low libido are a wellness issue.
nallepuh
New member
I think u r playing wordgames. I doubt any1 having the above will feel fine for a longer period of time especially at the age of 18. Im all for HRT, hell im counting on it for my own wellbeeing. I just think it should be justified by symptoms b4 treatment. Theres alot of guys out there doing fine with lower testosterone levels. I think u know what im trying to say here.
KSman
Member
So guys who have heart attacks and did not feel poorly before hand are acting like you, no symptom - no worry? Symptoms like heart attacks do occur, but its rather late to start preventative medicine at that point. The key issue is that there can be accelerate aging that is not going to create overt symptoms. I think that you need to understand aging issues a bit more.
Define lower levels of T? What is low and what is optimal from an aging or QOL point of view?
nallepuh
New member
Just as its been said b4 here by Dr john and others. Some ppl do very well on low T maybe its because of sensitive androgens receptors or something else that we do not know the mechanism of. Theres alot of varibles in this equation for sure. Without knowing them all, symptoms is what doctors use to find out what could be wrong and run tests accordingly to confirm their suspicions.
Would u like to c everyone with a totalT of around 450 with no symptoms of low T on HRT as a preventive meassure? I think we both know that HRT is no walk in the park And why any1 would advice some1 at the age of 18 without issues to walk down this road as a precautionary meassure is something i cant understand. I guess we c things differently in this particular case.
plymouth city
Banned
Your 19. Your still have tremendous cardiovascular/CNS/mitochondrial/thyroid/insulin/oncology/ etc etc ect! advantages at that age, probably good GH response, this is temporarily carrying you along despite low T. This is why you still get erections/gain mass. There is so much at play that isn't T involved.
Many people tremendously discredit these advantages.
Remember someone who is 30 or more with a 500TT level does not have these advantages, so a less than optimal T level can have a detrimental affect on QOL. Comparing someone who is still a teen to a 30 - 40 something adult, or older, is beyond apples to oranges. :whip:
Your Dr is might be right in suggesting TRT. :clap2:
plymouth city
Banned
Great post :clap2:
However, I don't like the idea of using BF or BF distribution as an indicator of E2 level, way to much of a generalization, especially with young guys. Me and Blesum are walking proof that low BF/good muscle mass can go along with high E2(not that I like it this way!).
Makes me wonder how much even better I would be off with an optimal E2 number.
JanSz
Well-known member
KSman's explaination is good.
I would add that when discussing testosterone, emphasis should be on Free and BioAvailable rather than TotalT.
Levels of SHBG (and Albumin) may greatly affect need for testosterone.
SHBG out of line level may in itself indicate other problems.
KSman
Member
I agree. But I have no idea of how SHBG or albumin can be lowered outside of lowering E2 [for SHBG].
I understand that albumin weakly carries T and that is considered bioavailable... yes/no? My HRT/TRT response has turned out quite well and I have not had a motive to learn about many other aspects.
JanSz
Well-known member
In this post is attachment that contains many/most of Dr Mariancos posts. Courtesy of Hardasnails et all.
Word document searchable on SHBG in this case.
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also directly:
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hardasnails1973
Registered User
What happens if you get your e2 down and your shbg stays elevated ? Could that cause some thing similar to an estrogen defieincy possibly. Will over time shbg actually come down?
nallepuh
New member
when u can awnser this pls call me
im at top range of shgb and only 12 e2.. i do have elevated free t4 wich could make shgb go up too as often seen in hyperthyriod. when that is taken care of and if shbg still wont come down im checking into total estrogen no matter what experts say
hardasnails1973
Registered User
when u can awnser this pls call me
im at top range of shgb and only 12 e2.. i do have elevated free t4 wich could make shgb go up too as often seen in hyperthyriod. when that is taken care of and if shbg still wont come down im checking into total estrogen no matter what experts say
My thyroid is in the crapper that rules that out. My gh levels are good insulin levels are prefect only thing left is funked up e2 metabolism creating shbg in the liver. I still speculate that bad metabolites flaoting around will still trigger high e2 problems and body will repsond accordingly. Before getting ill my e2 was 17 and shbg 17 and t level was 950 naturally YIKE !!
JanSz
Well-known member
when u can awnser this pls call me
im at top range of shgb and only 12 e2.. i do have elevated free t4 wich could make shgb go up too as often seen in hyperthyriod. when that is taken care of and if shbg still wont come down im checking into total estrogen no matter what experts say
I am not waiting that long, and I check more than one of "useless" tests.
Now my list is:
Quest:
61 Estradiol, Bioavailable
62 Estradiol, Free
63 Estradiol, Fractionated, serum
64 Estradiol, Ultra-sensitive (is part of fractionated)
65 Estrone,serum (is part of fractionated)
66 Estrogens, Total, Serum
plus
RheinLabs
nallepuh
New member
could u please tell us once and for all what is the correct e2 test a male should have done.
pls post anything u know about this test so me and others outside of US can benefit from asking our labs to do equivalent testing. Is there a special method etc?
Its getting frustrating hearing: its the wrong test bet u are skyhigh if u did the right one and so forth
thx in advance.
JanSz
Well-known member
Im my experience as a patient I came two (possibly more) times with false-positive test results.
Test-positeve=grave outcome.
I was immediately presented with work-around test that negated previus findings,
one time it was on emergency basis.
I am sure there must be something similar in existance with blood tests.
Any response/experience?????
Does Nichol's Institure have anything on topic of test errors and how they deal with them, someplace their web site?
I could not locate anything.
Any body else.
If test is not applicable to men and head of Institute knows about it, he should take corrective.
Quality assurance, quality control topic.
That is why we do not want to deal with fly-by nigh laboratories, no matter how nice office furnishing they have.
I am sure that many tests when scrutinized would reveal some story.
Say, like BioAvailableTestosterone.
Free Testosterone.
Just about anything when taken under magnifying glass.
Probably half of unsuccesful treatments is due to test-malfunctions.
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==============================================
Quest Diagnostics Incorporated (NYSE: DGX) 1290 Wall St. West
Lyndhurst, NJ 07071 (Map)Phone: 201-393-5000
Fax: 201-729-8920
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Hoover's coverage by Kristi Park
Quest Diagnostics is testing its ability to be the world's leading clinical lab. The company performs tests on some 150 million specimens each year, including routine tests such as cholesterol checks, Pap smears, HIV screenings, and drug tests. Quest Diagnostics performs esoteric testing (such as genetic screening) through its Nichols Institute Diagnostics arm, and it assists drug companies with tests for clinical trials. The company serves doctors and hospitals, as well as corporations, government agencies, and other clinical labs. It has more than 2,000 patient services centers where samples are collected, along with about 30 primary labs and 150 rapid response labs throughout the US and in Mexico and the UK.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
SAme thing happen to me i specified the estrodial ultrasentive test and it came back with results <4 and range <29, going by these results I stopped the AI and 4 weeks tested correctly of e2 73 from 10-53. Was this a mistake on labs part and tested it as a fractural part because it cost me 2 months on sheer grief wondering why I was acting the way I was (emotional zombie, bloating and all high e2 symptoms) almost losing my relationship because I am very estrogen sensitive..
pmgamer18
Well-known member
I have been spreading the word until I am blue in the face. Still they don't believe it.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
All i do is mark estrodial and disquish my self as male and I always get the right results. :thumbsup:
pmgamer18
Well-known member
Can you believe I have not had any Arimidex in 7 days. No problems. I am thinking of going back on Indoplex/DIM the dam Arimidex is to strong now.
hardasnails1973
Registered User
Becare ful of DIM I have heard that it down regulates androgen receptors at the expense of speeding up e2 metabolism ..
plymouth city
Banned
That would be a dam good thing if it did
Aoba
Member
ok as i said before total test is 441..got back free test as 1.1% with the lowest in the range being 1% and then i got a number value for free test (50-210) and mine was 48.5 and flagged as low but my doctor said it was perfectly normal......
:trout: :trout: :trout:
Should i look for an endo now?
btw estrogen (total, not e2) was 32 and the range said anything under 52.
:trout: :trout: :trout:
Should i look for an endo now?
btw estrogen (total, not e2) was 32 and the range said anything under 52.