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persistent side effect of finasterid extreme low libido

jaydee said:
I think its important to state if youve used the drug or not, since there are differences between those who have taken it and those who havnt when it comes to TRT. From what i have read on this board and others, it seems the post fin guys have a particularly hard time getting things right.

My last lot of bloods, I have already posted here, and although some are missing from your list, I think I may have an E problem since my E was 33 at last blood draw and i have had the symptoms of too much E..bloating, itchy chest etc........

Also DHT is midrange on my bloods, so that could improve also. Everything else looks ok. It would be better for me to repost my latest results when I do them in a couple weeks when my doctor gets back to me to save going over the same results i posted on here a few times before.

From being on the finasteride forum, we havnt come up with any solid answers. A lot of ideas flying around...but thats about it. Not many recoveries. We are pretty much stabbing in the dark but its better than doing nothing at all.

I will definately post my new lab results when I get them to see what you think of them.
Click to expand...

Possibly increase DHT to the top of range or above it.
When I was on Androgel, my DHT=226 ng/dL(30-85)

About estrogen and DHT, I am making experiment, I believe it is similar as with Testosterone, that it is FreeT that is important, the number for total have secondary importance.
So last Thursday I did this tests to check

FreeE2
FreeDHT

I did
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X)

Report on this should have:

Estradiol, Free (Males (Adult): < or = 0.45 pg/mL )
Estradiol (Males (Adult): < or = 29 pg/mL)
DIHYDROTESTOSTERONE, FREE (DHT, Free pg/mL ADULT MALES: 1.00-6.20 )
--------------------------------------------------------
Quest have been known to screw up, hopefully not this time.
 
Interesting...let us know how you go with that.

Yep, I think getting the DHT up will be one of the next things my doctor and I try. We have already tried the cream on the nuts thing....Just have to wait and see what he wants to do.

Putting the T cream on the nuts didnt help my symptoms at all, though I havnt had bloods since trying that so for all I know I could be producing enough DHT right now. Thats why I say its probably best if i just post my new results....it will be more telling and hopefully it will have a urine test as well.....:thumbsup: I want to see what urines say about the DHT.....
 
jaydee
I agree with you. Primary objective is sexual problems, depression is secondary (keep away from antidepressant I have used them 4 mounts and I have felt really miserably). Sex is very importan for every man and I know what you was talking about. My depression and suicide thoughts follow from my sexual problems and from powerlessness to do with it something. We both need no antidepressant but magical cure or at least a hope.

Be sure that your prolactine level is ok because it can cause sexual problem even if your Testosteron level is ok.
 
jaydee said:
I think its important to state if youve used the drug or not, since there are differences between those who have taken it and those who havnt when it comes to TRT. From what i have read on this board and others, it seems the post fin guys have a particularly hard time getting things right.
Click to expand...

I have mentioned that before, but remainding.
I have used Proscar and Avodart, both full strenght, Proscar for over two years then changed to Avodart around Mar2005. I used Avodart till about June2006.

There is a possiblity that I was saved from finasteride/dousteride problems because at about that time I also started Androgel. I had erection problems for a good two maybe three years before starting Proscar.

May2006 no Avodart, 10grams Androgel (whole body covered) DHT=29
Oct2006 no Avodart, 10grams Androgel (whole body covered) DHT=226
Apr2007 no Avodart, 1gram 10% Tcream (smal area on calfs covered) DHT=143(25-75)


When looking to raise Test and DHT use Androgel.
During my time on Androgel I did not had to use Arimidex
but I learned about it the hard way, I used it at first, lost erectons, regained erections when stopped Arimidex.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I am now on 140mg/week Depo-T, E3D schedule
no Avodart
0.5mL/E3D LiquiDex
500iu hcg Novarel E3D schedule
(T+hcg+LiquiDex) all at the same time
1 Cialis/week, good for two ejaculations, sometime three
Draw blood last Thursday, will post results when they come.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
JansZ have you actually heard of anyone recovering from finasteride by using DHT cream or by increasing DHT? ....or are you just speculating that in theory it should work?

I havnt heard of anyone across the forums who have recovered this way.

Also, if DHT was absolutely non existant for arguments sake, and T was elevated to normal, would you still get a sex drive from the T? - even though it is a less powerfull hormone?

I also found this site on how Merck came across the idea of making finasteride. It says that without DHT, a man will not have hair on the legs, arm or face. I have hair on all of those areas....:

Invalid Link Removed

EDIT: I just read another article that says that you WILL grow facial hair if you have 5AR deficiency....who knows??...
 
jaydee

Stop speculating about DHT and try it there is nothing to lose. I have taken injection Testosteron izobutyras 50mg estradiol benzoas 5 mg microcrystalic suspension week ago and now my erection is strong and my premature ejacuation is gone but my libido is still minimal. It is absolutely alogical because my estradiol level is high over normal.
 
jaydee said:
JansZ have you actually heard of anyone recovering from finasteride by using DHT cream or by increasing DHT? ....or are you just speculating that in theory it should work?

I havnt heard of anyone across the forums who have recovered this way.

Also, if DHT was absolutely non existant for arguments sake, and T was elevated to normal, would you still get a sex drive from the T? - even though it is a less powerfull hormone?

I also found this site on how Merck came across the idea of making finasteride. It says that without DHT, a man will not have hair on the legs, arm or face. I have hair on all of those areas....:

Invalid Link Removed

EDIT: I just read another article that says that you WILL grow facial hair if you have 5AR deficiency....who knows??...
Click to expand...

JansZ have you actually heard of anyone recovering from finasteride by using DHT cream or by increasing DHT? ..

No I have not.
But you are missing the boat asking this question.
I have not heard of anybody making good will effort to raise his DHT to the top or over top of range and holding it for at least 6-9 months.
 
GenesisSVK said:
jaydee

Stop speculating about DHT and try it there is nothing to lose. I have taken injection Testosteron izobutyras 50mg estradiol benzoas 5 mg microcrystalic suspension week ago and now my erection is strong and my premature ejacuation is gone but my libido is still minimal. It is absolutely alogical because my estradiol level is high over normal.
Click to expand...

Try this blood test from Quest:
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)

as result you will get
Estradiol, Free (Males (Adult): < or = 0.45 pg/mL )
Estradiol (Males (Adult): < or = 29 pg/mL)

Go by Estradiol, Free

This is my lattest plan.

I am assuming that tings work similarly as with FreeT
Both depend on SHBG levels.
 
GenesisSVK said:
jaydee

Stop speculating about DHT and try it there is nothing to lose. I have taken injection Testosteron izobutyras 50mg estradiol benzoas 5 mg microcrystalic suspension week ago and now my erection is strong and my premature ejacuation is gone but my libido is still minimal. It is absolutely alogical because my estradiol level is high over normal.
Click to expand...

Yea I agree, nothing at all to lose from trying it. I was just curious if anyone else had succes with it...fishing for a bit of hope is all.

For me, its the libido that is the big problem as it sounds like it is for you too. I know my plumbing works.....i just dont have any drive at all.

JansZ, yea I get what you mean....it could take some time....If my doctor says I need it, then I will certainly try DHT cream. It makes perfect sense to me. Thanks for your input so far.....
 
Baggins, I havent had any improvements at all. I havnt posted an update for the finasteride guys here for a while so I thought id do it here.

Testosterone isnt working on its own. It still could be an E problem too I guess. This is just a very slow process getting all the testing done and getting the meds I need to try. It really has been a wild goose chase because in Australia meds are a lot harder to get in the area of TRT.

Im trying a bit of a post cycle therapy at the moment to try and kickstart my own production. Im not giving out details or doses, but I will let you know how I come out of it in a few weeks.

Im still hanging on to the fact that I got some libido back when I first started TRT. So im hoping this is just about finding the right balance.
 
For what its worth... i am NOT a doctor... but before we blame Finasteride for all our ills (I am a former user myself) we must exhaust other causes for problems as well. In my case I believe subtle Adrenal Fatigue and Hypothyroidism.

Following is a post from Marianco, who is more knowledgeable than any of us, on this very topic...

---------------- POST FROM MARIANCO-----
It is difficult to tell whether or not there is a relationship between Gilbert's Syndrome and Finasteride problems.

A lot of people I have seen so far who have had problems with Finasteride have had other hormonal problems instead, which were exposed by using Finasteride, which many not be simply resolved by stopping Finasteride.

The interesting thing is that blocking alpha-reductase using Finasteride has far reaching effects rather than simply reducing DHT.

For example, by reducing DHT, Finasteride favors testosterone going to estrogens. Doing so may then reduce thyroid hormone activity, which then may cause insulin resistance, which then may cause loss of magnesium and iodine from the body, which then may exacerbate and prolong hypothyroidism, which may then not resolve from simply stopping Finasteride, which has to be addressed as a separate issue in treatment. Insulin resistance, itself, is a self-perpetuating problem since it can lead to abdominal obesity and testosterone deficiency - both of which can further worsen insulin resistance.

These complex cascades can lead to situations which need to be discovered in testing before they can be understood to exist and be targetted in treatment.


GenesisSVK said:
Hi. I'm 28 years old and I'm from Slovakia (It is in Europe). I'm sorry my English is not good but I'll try. I'm off finasterid for 6 years and I still have side effects. I used it oraly. When I stopped oral administration (1mg/day during one year) because of side effect (depression) I started with homemade alcoholic solution of finasterid and dutasterid. Daily topical dose contained 100mcg of finasterid and 30 mcg dutasterid (for hair this was more effective than oral administration of finasterid) but here occured my problem. Depression went away but my sexual life too. I was taking topical solution for 3 months and in this time my libido died totaly. Now I take nothing for 6 years. During 6 years no improve in my libido (I'm nearly asexual). I tried everything (Testosteron replacement, ginseng, siberian ginseng, rhodiola, leuzea, tribulus, multivitamins, mesterolon as a DHT replacement, piracetam for nerves regeneration, sport, walking) but no improve. I have extreme low libido, my erection is weak, I suffer premature ejaculation. I lost all my girlfriends and now I'm totally alone for 6 years. My hormonal profile (testosterone, prolactin, LH, FSH, thyroid hormone) is ok thus all sexologist said that I'm Ok :( but I'm not. I need girlfriend for my emotional life but Girls dont want me because of I hate sex. I wish to have family but I can't reach this :( . PLS Can somebody help me?
Click to expand...
 
wondering said:
For what its worth... i am NOT a doctor... but before we blame Finasteride for all our ills (I am a former user myself) we must exhaust other causes for problems as well. In my case I believe subtle Adrenal Fatigue and Hypothyroidism.

Following is a post from Marianco, who is more knowledgeable than any of us, on this very topic...

---------------- POST FROM MARIANCO-----
It is difficult to tell whether or not there is a relationship between Gilbert's Syndrome and Finasteride problems.

A lot of people I have seen so far who have had problems with Finasteride have had other hormonal problems instead, which were exposed by using Finasteride, which many not be simply resolved by stopping Finasteride.

The interesting thing is that blocking alpha-reductase using Finasteride has far reaching effects rather than simply reducing DHT.

For example, by reducing DHT, Finasteride favors testosterone going to estrogens. Doing so may then reduce thyroid hormone activity, which then may cause insulin resistance, which then may cause loss of magnesium and iodine from the body, which then may exacerbate and prolong hypothyroidism, which may then not resolve from simply stopping Finasteride, which has to be addressed as a separate issue in treatment. Insulin resistance, itself, is a self-perpetuating problem since it can lead to abdominal obesity and testosterone deficiency - both of which can further worsen insulin resistance.

These complex cascades can lead to situations which need to be discovered in testing before they can be understood to exist and be targetted in treatment.
Click to expand...

I just got a hammer for many types of nails.
Hopefully this type is covered, so i suggest trying it, it is not overly expensive.
Internationally available.
In UK can be had just for the money, no script required.

Genova Diagnostics tests:

NutriEval
EstroEssence
Comprehensive Detoxification Prpfile.
 
Libido is more complicated matter than ratio testosteron/estrogen. I´m trying 7 years recover my libido but no success.

jaydee said:
Baggins, I havent had any improvements at all. I havnt posted an update for the finasteride guys here for a while so I thought id do it here.

Testosterone isnt working on its own. It still could be an E problem too I guess. This is just a very slow process getting all the testing done and getting the meds I need to try. It really has been a wild goose chase because in Australia meds are a lot harder to get in the area of TRT.

Im trying a bit of a post cycle therapy at the moment to try and kickstart my own production. Im not giving out details or doses, but I will let you know how I come out of it in a few weeks.

Im still hanging on to the fact that I got some libido back when I first started TRT. So im hoping this is just about finding the right balance.
Click to expand...
 
wondering said:
For what its worth... i am NOT a doctor... but before we blame Finasteride for all our ills (I am a former user myself) we must exhaust other causes for problems as well. In my case I believe subtle Adrenal Fatigue and Hypothyroidism.

Following is a post from Marianco, who is more knowledgeable than any of us, on this very topic...

---------------- POST FROM MARIANCO-----
It is difficult to tell whether or not there is a relationship between Gilbert's Syndrome and Finasteride problems.

A lot of people I have seen so far who have had problems with Finasteride have had other hormonal problems instead, which were exposed by using Finasteride, which many not be simply resolved by stopping Finasteride.

The interesting thing is that blocking alpha-reductase using Finasteride has far reaching effects rather than simply reducing DHT.

For example, by reducing DHT, Finasteride favors testosterone going to estrogens. Doing so may then reduce thyroid hormone activity, which then may cause insulin resistance, which then may cause loss of magnesium and iodine from the body, which then may exacerbate and prolong hypothyroidism, which may then not resolve from simply stopping Finasteride, which has to be addressed as a separate issue in treatment. Insulin resistance, itself, is a self-perpetuating problem since it can lead to abdominal obesity and testosterone deficiency - both of which can further worsen insulin resistance.

These complex cascades can lead to situations which need to be discovered in testing before they can be understood to exist and be targetted in treatment.
Click to expand...

I am yet to hear of one person with finasteride problems, who Dr Marianco has fixed. If there are any out there, please let me know because I sure could do with some hope. I mean all of that sounds good in theory, but if it were that simple, why isnt every finasteride guy going to Dr Marianco to get fixed? Nothing against Dr Marinco at all....he is an awsome Dr, but it seems that finasteride is irriversibly screwing guys up.

Also I cant speak for anyone else, but I dont blame finasteride for ALL of my health problems. I know though for a fact that finasteride absoulutely screwed my sex drive and sex life. Finasteride did this, nothing else. If finasteride was a catalyist with some other problem then im open to that also, but if thats the case, this drug needs some kind of screening process for these issues prior to it being handed out like lollies. If this drug isnt directly or indirectly leading to men commiting suicide, I would be highly surprised. Based on what other users who are having irriversible problems have told me, it leaves a lot of men with not a very bright future.
 
jaydee, what were your before and after blood work results from Finesteride? Do you have any?


Have you tried Proviron?


I think that your Androgen to estroge ratio might still be out of whack, and if you introduce some DHT into your system for long enough, your estrogen receptors should down regulate, and your estrogen should drop aswell.


Your free Testosterone should also increase.


These might not give overnight results, but the body takes a while to recover, so mabye trying this for a while will bring you back to normal?



How are your IGF-1 levels?
 
jaydee said:
I am yet to hear of one person with finasteride problems, who Dr Marianco has fixed. If there are any out there, please let me know because I sure could do with some hope. I mean all of that sounds good in theory, but if it were that simple, why isnt every finasteride guy going to Dr Marianco to get fixed? Nothing against Dr Marinco at all....he is an awsome Dr, but it seems that finasteride is irriversibly screwing guys up.

Also I cant speak for anyone else, but I dont blame finasteride for ALL of my health problems. I know though for a fact that finasteride absoulutely screwed my sex drive and sex life. Finasteride did this, nothing else. If finasteride was a catalyist with some other problem then im open to that also, but if thats the case, this drug needs some kind of screening process for these issues prior to it being handed out like lollies. If this drug isnt directly or indirectly leading to men commiting suicide, I would be highly surprised. Based on what other users who are having irriversible problems have told me, it leaves a lot of men with not a very bright future.
Click to expand...

Jaydee,
I got new one, that I am sure you did not tried yet.
It sound to me that it have a potential of fixing you up.

Do Genova Diagnostic testing.
I know you are in Ausralia.
The closest lab is in New Zeland.
You do not have to go there, you just ship urine or blood there, no extensive travel is need.
Check with them, if it is same as in UK, all you need is money, no script, no doctor, required.
======================================
Invalid Link Removed
-------------------------------------------------
New Zealand
East-West Functional Medicine Clinic
31 West Harbour Dr
West Harbour
Auckland 1008 / New Zealand
Contact: Nerena Morris, B. Sc. ND
Tel. ++ 09 416 92 58
e-mail: [email protected]
Website: Invalid Link Removed

======================================
============================================
Ask your doc to do Genova Diagnostic testing.
These tests:

NutriEval (saliva, urine, blood)
EstroEssence (first morning urine)

possibly also

Comprehensive Detoxification profile
and
EstroGenomics
============================================
Also spend 2x $20 and study how to read and apply top two tests.
Invalid Link Removed
-----------------------------------------------------------
NutrEval discussed
EW04 - NUTRITIONAL EVALUATION: Understanding Your Patient's Supplement Needs
Invalid Link Removed
A4M :: Conference Library
Conference: A4M Las Vegas 2006
Speaker: Patrick Hanaway, MD
December 7, 2006 6:00 pm - 9:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Estroessence discussed:

GS02m - Estrogen Metabolism: Modifying Risk in Clinical Practice
Conference: A4M Orlando 2006
Speaker: Patrick Hanaway MD
Length: 31m 07s - 66 Slides
April 9, 2006 5:00 pm - 5:40 pm
--------------------------------------------------
 
Superone, I do have before and after bloodwork. My previosly upper third Total T dropped by about a third after quitting finasteride to about 550, and my free T dropped to below range. My E is very slightly outside IDEAL range (33). I can get the exact numbers for you if you want, I just have to go rifling through my ever growing folder of blood work and tests and its near 2 am here.....lol.

I agree....DHT would probably help my situation a lot in the way of keeping estrogen in control. It is on the cards later on if a few other things dont work in the meantime.

Janz thanks for all of that info, as always your a walking library. i will definately look into getting those tests done.
 
Yes Jaydee if you dont mind id like to see your bloodwork, in very interested. Thanks.


Im going to order some proviron because exposing my body to high DHT again, like my body normally produced, will get me back to normal i think. I dont think i'll ever touch Finesteride/Dutasteride again either, but i dont beleive the sides are permanent. I think with the right protocol over a longer period of time will reset your body back to normal.





Thanks.
 
Before finasteride:

Total T - 25.4 nmol/L (11 - 40)
LH - 2 U/L (<9)
On finasteride:

Total T - 27.1 nmol/L (11- 40)

After finasteride:

Total T - 16.3 nmol/L (11 - 40)
Free Testosterone - 31 pmol/L (60 - 130)
SHBG - 33 nmol/L (10 - 70)
E2 - 105 pmol/L (40 - 250)
FSH - 2 U/L (3 - 20)
LH - 2 U/L (<9)
DHT - 2.3 nmol/L (2 - 20)

On TRT:

Total T - 46 nmol/L (10 - 33)
Free T - 146 nmol/L (60 - 130)
SHBG - 36 nmol/L (13 -71)
E2 - 119 pmol/L (40 - 250)
DHT - 10.54 nmol/L (20-20)

I have since halved my T cream to get Totat T down with no change in libido or sexual function.
 
Jaydee, really sorry to hear you are still having problems. I am in the same boat myself with the symptoms and all. Depressing as hell.

I looked over your results and i found something strange. Before fina you're LH was 2 but your total t was high. I guess we shouldn't put too much weight on LH (due to the pulsation nature of it) but 2 does seem pretty low BEFORE fina. I wonder if you had problems all along but fina aplified and made them 100 times worse?
 
I'm not gonna lose hope and hope you don't either... much is based on re-reading Marianco's post.. about Finasteride uncovering other problems not being the cause of them. If these are the only tests you have run, then there are plenty of other stones to turnover...Adrenals, Thyroid, Nutritional defiencies for starters.

Megazoid said:
Jaydee, really sorry to hear you are still having problems. I am in the same boat myself with the symptoms and all. Depressing as hell.

I looked over your results and i found something strange. Before fina you're LH was 2 but your total t was high. I guess we shouldn't put too much weight on LH (due to the pulsation nature of it) but 2 does seem pretty low BEFORE fina. I wonder if you had problems all along but fina aplified and made them 100 times worse?
Click to expand...
 
Megaziod, I noticed that too for the first time last night and it is certainly a good thing if I had problems before and they are being amplified. Perhaps I can be fixed? I wonder what that means - low LH, yet high Total T? Worth noticing also is that my FSH was <2 before finasteride too, I have just found. I hope you see some improvement soon Megazoid.

Wondering, ive checked and am treating thyroid and adrenals. My diet is pretty solid.
 
I wonder if finasteride would be okay for someone like me (note I have been on it before and stopped because of fear, amo).

My DHT pre TRT was slightly over top of range, on transdermals it is 2X range.

It is also interesting to note that my total T was only 340 pre trt.

I am shedding on the crown on TRT...I am on topicals (niz, spiro, minox)
 
My dear friend from slovakia..

Je mi lito ze mas taky stejni problemy jak ja. V zacatku jsem chtel spachat sebevrazdu. Nemohl jsem zijet bez sex, ale bohuzel asi tek to ne ma cenu protoze mam vic problemu s finasteridu.

I am surprised though with all your efforts all these years to restore your libido. You even used a dht replacement? What did that show? No improvement at all right?

I tried as well to get my libido back for the first 2 yrs after fin. Tried pretty much everthing. Unfortunately nothing happened. Then i decided to start lifting heavier than before and eat and live as healthy as possible.

I incorporated frequent basketball playing and excessive squating and other heavy exercises as well as relaxation techniques which i would never do before fin use (and used a whey protein supplement and that was all, and got back 60-70 % of my original libido in around 1 and a half year or less. Yet my erection size was still small, my ejaculate volume also. I couldnt get erected any more with visual stimuli only, had to get a bj or get touched by a woman passionately to get that slight erection. My penile size is down 2 inches and still thinking how to increase it.

You should join the propecia help forum group if you havent already.

Blood hormone picture actually has very little to do with libido after finasteride use. I had testo of 700 and freeT of 28pg/ml (13-41) and couldnt get a hard on for 2 yrs. Now at testo levels of 340 and freeT 12.8 (13-40 is normal range) my libido is the same for months and is 50-60% better than the first two years after fin.

This is a devious drug. It Reduces the number, size, sensitivity, and other parameteres of your dht receptors in your prostate/penile tissue and offcourse peripheral skin, and this can be shown by the measurement of androstenediol glucuronide turnover not by blood levels of dht.

Dont bother with blood tests nothing will be of use. Its just a fake picture of your libido at this time. I have done more than 10 full hormonal tests (even blood catecholamines at supine/standing/exercise positions) within the last 12 months only. You can go check my panel in propecia forum.

The unfortunate thing with me is i didnt see that overtraining was coming otherwise now i would be at 70-80% of libido restoration. Now i have also developed adrenal hypofunction since with low dht cellular activity and very low 5-alpha reductase action, glucocorticoids where the only hormones left to help me overcome and hold down the catecholamine surge from excessive exercise and other stressors. In the end i got messed up badly. Now i found that finasteride has directly been suppresing some steps in my adrenal androgen metabolism as well. The drug unfortunately once administered for some time transduces permanent DNA changes in your body. If i drink a tiny sip of alcohol the after effect is astonishing i get no libido at all whatsoever. It seems that my liver is messed up badly after it. Plus my hair hasnt fallen off with not even 10% of the rate of shedding before fin.

Regarding dht. Dont look for dht in blood levels its 99% useless, unless its way under the minimal range then you have other serious problems as well. Usually after fin use, dht levels reverse to their normal within some months. Yet fsh for some reason and in most people drops (and in some cases lh as well) and this can be seen as your ejaculate volume is decreased and messed up.
E2 may also rise in some but this happens only initially while T levels have spiked disproportionately because of the 5-ar blockage. There have been athletes banned from participating in sports because of fin in their blood and induced Testo rise imagine that!!

Yet still in a few months time this testo rising condition will reverse as well and in the end your whole blood hormonal picture will be perfect or slightly lower than normal but you will feel very low or no libido.
I was also sent to the shrink after finasteride use. I almost went mad because of doctors not understanding me but being in medicine sat down and tried to learn as much about exerc. endocrinology and neuroendocrinology as possible. Soon i gave up since there was noone cooperating with me and self medication is not the best thing to do but until few months ago because fin and training has driven me to serious adrenal issues so i cant just wait to end up in a psychiatry clinic. I am now trying to learn as much as possible, every single enzymatic step and biochemical process involved.

Regarding the ejaculatory volume. Mine was and still is more watery and quite lower in volume than before. I tried antibiotics and it became much better and my erection got somewhat better as well yet had severe sides from them as well. That is because many people after fin develop chronic prostatitis (have you checked yours?)

Im surprised you took antidepressants as well (did you take them before or after fin i cant remember that from reading your posts). Why did you take them and what kind? SSRis, NRIs, TCAs? Apart from their psychotropic effects they have indirect suppresing action on thyroid, corticotropins and gonadotropins. Some people on antidepressants lately have reported to take thyroid(T3) and some even testo supplements as well to feel better.

If i were you i would start checking your adrenal gland function first of all. See how your cortisol levels are via saliva and dhea and insulin. If you have been depressed after fin it is a clear evidence that cortisol levels are chronically raised. Then i would do a full blood and urine hormonal blood panel just to know where you stand at this point. Not that it plays any particular role as you will not find any serious abnormaliities.

From there on i suggest you start reading endocrinology and find some one who does want to work with you seriously for quite a long to deal with this.

Dht receptors are a major deal to the whole issue. Maybe in theory, if you can find a way to provide an envirnoment of -steady or intermittent or increasing timewise- (about this i am not sure yet im still searchin into it) T, or and/DHEA, or and/ androstenedione or even just pregnenolone or some other hormone support (since after fin there is a partial divergence and blocking of several hormone pathways) to get your receptors sensitized and their selectivity increased once again and your body to start producing even slight spontaneous erections or nocturnal erections then there is a great chance you are on the very long way back to get some of your sex life back. Some prostaglandins and l-arginine may play an extra role in all of this as they may help with elasticity of penile tissue and vessel dilatation. The tricky thing is how you will be able to affect the dht Rs in your penis without affecting your prostate ones. In that case you will be in greater problems since this can lead to more ejaculatory issues and even benign prostate problems. Thats why im also recommending you go for a prostatic evaluation.

Yet all this is an approach that you will have to choose after reading alot of endocrinology and understanding what you are going to do.

"I'm really not sure about it. My theory is that one year's use of finasterid changed estrogen testosteron and DHT in my brain irreversibly because low DHT level decreases 5 alfa reductase and increases level od aromataze. After withdrawal of finasterid 5 alfa reductase level can't be correctly restore because of the excess of aromatase. Excess of aromatase equals excess of estrogenic compounds which decrease 5 alfa reductase level and promote level of aromatase (it is vicious circle). This all is the better case. The worst case is the increased level of estorgens and decreased level of DHT in the brain caused irreversible changes in brain cells (gynecomastia is irrevesible too) changing male brain cells to female brain cells in some part of the brain. In addition 5 alfa reductase transform not only testosterone to DHT but also progesteron and other steroid hormones hence the irreversible damage can be more complex. Finasterid and dutasterid also are really for some people dangerous drugs and decrease quality of life. For example When I was taking it I had really bad depression (suicide was really close)."

This statement "regarding irreversible changes in brain cells" and many others i assure you is almost totally wrong. if such changes would take place you would not be alive now or you would have serious malignancies.

You have to read and understand about hormone and receptor binding, intracellular hormone actions and interactivity of hormones with neurotransmitters, neurosteroids etc etc before you proceed again in taking drugs like the once you have been taking. Plus read carefully about steroid associated side effects, since after fin use things are not the same at all. Specificity, reversibility, affinity and saturability of H-R bindings are some parameters you should start looking into as a first step. There are different transduction pathways for anabolic hormone receptor bindings, different ones for the H-R bindings mediated by G proteins and different for other hormones. A trial and error game will be quite better after that but it will be optimal if you find a good endo or an exercise biochemist to assist you. Now you are trying blindly and probably creating more problems in your body in the long run. Some of these drugs you are taking have greater hazard potential than fin its self.

Forgot to say, i was not really paying attention when writing this, but if you have had depression you should also check apart from cortisol saliva levels your urine neurotransmitter levels and plasma neurotransmitters. It is not only low t or high Estradiol or Progesterone that may cause depression.
 
solonjk said:
My dear friend from slovakia..

Je mi lito ze mas taky stejni problemy jak ja. V zacatku jsem chtel spachat sebevrazdu. Nemohl jsem zijet bez sex, ale bohuzel asi tek to ne ma cenu protoze mam vic problemu s finasteridu.

I am surprised though with all your efforts all these years to restore your libido. You even used a dht replacement? What did that show? No improvement at all right?

I tried as well to get my libido back for the first 2 yrs after fin. Tried pretty much everthing. Unfortunately nothing happened. Then i decided to start lifting heavier than before and eat and live as healthy as possible.

I incorporated frequent basketball playing and excessive squating and other heavy exercises as well as relaxation techniques which i would never do before fin use (and used a whey protein supplement and that was all, and got back 60-70 % of my original libido in around 1 and a half year or less. Yet my erection size was still small, my ejaculate volume also. I couldnt get erected any more with visual stimuli only, had to get a bj or get touched by a woman passionately to get that slight erection. My penile size is down 2 inches and still thinking how to increase it.

You should join the propecia help forum group if you havent already.

Blood hormone picture actually has very little to do with libido after finasteride use. I had testo of 700 and freeT of 28pg/ml (13-41) and couldnt get a hard on for 2 yrs. Now at testo levels of 340 and freeT 12.8 (13-40 is normal range) my libido is the same for months and is 50-60% better than the first two years after fin.

This is a devious drug. It Reduces the number, size, sensitivity, and other parameteres of your dht receptors in your prostate/penile tissue and offcourse peripheral skin, and this can be shown by the measurement of androstenediol glucuronide turnover not by blood levels of dht.

Dont bother with blood tests nothing will be of use. Its just a fake picture of your libido at this time. I have done more than 10 full hormonal tests (even blood catecholamines at supine/standing/exercise positions) within the last 12 months only. You can go check my panel in propecia forum.

The unfortunate thing with me is i didnt see that overtraining was coming otherwise now i would be at 70-80% of libido restoration. Now i have also developed adrenal hypofunction since with low dht cellular activity and very low 5-alpha reductase action, glucocorticoids where the only hormones left to help me overcome and hold down the catecholamine surge from excessive exercise and other stressors. In the end i got messed up badly. Now i found that finasteride has directly been suppresing some steps in my adrenal androgen metabolism as well. The drug unfortunately once administered for some time transduces permanent DNA changes in your body. If i drink a tiny sip of alcohol the after effect is astonishing i get no libido at all whatsoever. It seems that my liver is messed up badly after it. Plus my hair hasnt fallen off with not even 10% of the rate of shedding before fin.

Regarding dht. Dont look for dht in blood levels its 99% useless, unless its way under the minimal range then you have other serious problems as well. Usually after fin use, dht levels reverse to their normal within some months. Yet fsh for some reason and in most people drops (and in some cases lh as well) and this can be seen as your ejaculate volume is decreased and messed up.
E2 may also rise in some but this happens only initially while T levels have spiked disproportionately because of the 5-ar blockage. There have been athletes banned from participating in sports because of fin in their blood and induced Testo rise imagine that!!

Yet still in a few months time this testo rising condition will reverse as well and in the end your whole blood hormonal picture will be perfect or slightly lower than normal but you will feel very low or no libido.
I was also sent to the shrink after finasteride use. I almost went mad because of doctors not understanding me but being in medicine sat down and tried to learn as much about exerc. endocrinology and neuroendocrinology as possible. Soon i gave up since there was noone cooperating with me and self medication is not the best thing to do but until few months ago because fin and training has driven me to serious adrenal issues so i cant just wait to end up in a psychiatry clinic. I am now trying to learn as much as possible, every single enzymatic step and biochemical process involved.

Regarding the ejaculatory volume. Mine was and still is more watery and quite lower in volume than before. I tried antibiotics and it became much better and my erection got somewhat better as well yet had severe sides from them as well. That is because many people after fin develop chronic prostatitis (have you checked yours?)

Im surprised you took antidepressants as well (did you take them before or after fin i cant remember that from reading your posts). Why did you take them and what kind? SSRis, NRIs, TCAs? Apart from their psychotropic effects they have indirect suppresing action on thyroid, corticotropins and gonadotropins. Some people on antidepressants lately have reported to take thyroid(T3) and some even testo supplements as well to feel better.

If i were you i would start checking your adrenal gland function first of all. See how your cortisol levels are via saliva and dhea and insulin. If you have been depressed after fin it is a clear evidence that cortisol levels are chronically raised. Then i would do a full blood and urine hormonal blood panel just to know where you stand at this point. Not that it plays any particular role as you will not find any serious abnormaliities.

From there on i suggest you start reading endocrinology and find some one who does want to work with you seriously for quite a long to deal with this.

Dht receptors are a major deal to the whole issue. Maybe in theory, if you can find a way to provide an envirnoment of -steady or intermittent or increasing timewise- (about this i am not sure yet im still searchin into it) T, or and/DHEA, or and/ androstenedione or even just pregnenolone or some other hormone support (since after fin there is a partial divergence and blocking of several hormone pathways) to get your receptors sensitized and their selectivity increased once again and your body to start producing even slight spontaneous erections or nocturnal erections then there is a great chance you are on the very long way back to get some of your sex life back. Some prostaglandins and l-arginine may play an extra role in all of this as they may help with elasticity of penile tissue and vessel dilatation. The tricky thing is how you will be able to affect the dht Rs in your penis without affecting your prostate ones. In that case you will be in greater problems since this can lead to more ejaculatory issues and even benign prostate problems. Thats why im also recommending you go for a prostatic evaluation.

Yet all this is an approach that you will have to choose after reading alot of endocrinology and understanding what you are going to do.

"I'm really not sure about it. My theory is that one year's use of finasterid changed estrogen testosteron and DHT in my brain irreversibly because low DHT level decreases 5 alfa reductase and increases level od aromataze. After withdrawal of finasterid 5 alfa reductase level can't be correctly restore because of the excess of aromatase. Excess of aromatase equals excess of estrogenic compounds which decrease 5 alfa reductase level and promote level of aromatase (it is vicious circle). This all is the better case. The worst case is the increased level of estorgens and decreased level of DHT in the brain caused irreversible changes in brain cells (gynecomastia is irrevesible too) changing male brain cells to female brain cells in some part of the brain. In addition 5 alfa reductase transform not only testosterone to DHT but also progesteron and other steroid hormones hence the irreversible damage can be more complex. Finasterid and dutasterid also are really for some people dangerous drugs and decrease quality of life. For example When I was taking it I had really bad depression (suicide was really close)."

This statement "regarding irreversible changes in brain cells" and many others i assure you is almost totally wrong. if such changes would take place you would not be alive now or you would have serious malignancies.

You have to read and understand about hormone and receptor binding, intracellular hormone actions and interactivity of hormones with neurotransmitters, neurosteroids etc etc before you proceed again in taking drugs like the once you have been taking. Plus read carefully about steroid associated side effects, since after fin use things are not the same at all. Specificity, reversibility, affinity and saturability of H-R bindings are some parameters you should start looking into as a first step. There are different transduction pathways for anabolic hormone receptor bindings, different ones for the H-R bindings mediated by G proteins and different for other hormones. A trial and error game will be quite better after that but it will be optimal if you find a good endo or an exercise biochemist to assist you. Now you are trying blindly and probably creating more problems in your body in the long run. Some of these drugs you are taking have greater hazard potential than fin its self.

Forgot to say, i was not really paying attention when writing this, but if you have had depression you should also check apart from cortisol saliva levels your urine neurotransmitter levels and plasma neurotransmitters. It is not only low t or high Estradiol or Progesterone that may cause depression.
Click to expand...

solonjk;

You have put out a lots of hypothesis, some of them may be correct.
If you have a time, look at description of this two tests from Genova Diagnostics;

------
Detoxification Profile
Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed
------
GDX NutrEval Profile
Invalid Link Removed
-----------------------------
I suspect that thise tests may have some answers that are in line with your theory.
------------------------------------
If you are in Slovakia, the closest that I know of is
Invalid Link Removed

Germany
Institut für Functional Medicine und Umweltmedizin (IFU)
Im Kurpark 1
D-34308 Bad Emstal
Germany
Contact: Dr. Klaus Runow

My fried from Poland is making arrangements to do some of thise type tests there.
 
Like you said its just hypotheses and mostly personal/group findings. Not even Merck knows what happens to the "small" percentage of the patients who have been prescribed fin and have long lasting side effects.

I am on the same boat as the dude above. I had to wait two years to get some of my sexual health back and now im in worse condition since our bodies are so unstable after all this.

Yet as soon as i m off the side effects of the stupid antibiotics i took i will retry some hormone treatments as well. I hope i will be having the know how and the support from some expert though because this is a dangerous practice.
 
Has any one made any progress with this?

Hi,

I am suffering long time side effects that have been induced by finasteride. Has anyone made any progress in getting their libido back?

I am suffering very low libido after have ceased finasteride usage 6 months ago.
 
vincentv said:
Hi,

I am suffering long time side effects that have been induced by finasteride. Has anyone made any progress in getting their libido back?

I am suffering very low libido after have ceased finasteride usage 6 months ago.
Click to expand...

I do blood tests and then have my goals when I making effort to change my blood levels.
Blood tests at Quest diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest.

But if one does not have a doctor's script there is place that helps (below);


Try it, you may like it. Works for me.


Goals
DHEAs(500-640)mcg/dL
Progesterone(0.9-1.2)ng/mL
Pregnenolone(> 100ng/dL)
Estradiol, Ultrasensitive(25-29)pg/mL
Estrone, LC/MS/MS (23244X)
BATest(342, 460-575)ng/dL
DHT(60-90)ng/dL
FreeT3~400pg/dL
Body temperature (97.8° - 98.2°F) (36.56° - 36.78°C); (36.6-37C)(97.9-98.6F)
==========================================================
The Private MD difference:
Confidential: No doctor visit needed; we provide the lab order
Convenient: Choose the lab location best for you.....near home, near work or one convenient during travel
Affordable: No hidden charges, taxes or draw fees for blood or other lab tests

Invalid Link Removed

Estradiol $47.99
Estradiol, Sensitive $79.99

----------------------------------------------------
Estradiol, Sensitive

Description: This sensitive estradiol assay is designed for the investigation of infertility, particularly in situations where low estradiol levels can be expected. The analytic range of the assay is appropriate for the assessment of the low levels of estradiol typically observed in men, prepubertal girls, and postmenopausal women.
--------------------------------
Invalid Link Removed
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) -------- $68.99
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) Sulfate -------- $68.99
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) -------- $119.99
Estradiol, Sensitive -------- $68.49
Growth Hormone, Urine 24 Hour -------- $199.49
Hemochromatosis Screen (Comprehensive) -------- $349.99
Insulin-Like Growth Factor I (IGF-I) -------- $69.49
Male Ultimate Anti-Aging Panel -------- $299.99
Pregnenolone -------- $98.49
Progesterone -------- $44.49
Sex Hormone binding Globulin, Serum -------- $49.49
Testosterone, Free and Weakly Bound -------- $89.49
Thyroid TSH w/ Free T4 & Free T3 -------- $78.49

--------------------------------

.
/
 
JanSz said:
I do blood tests and then have my goals when I making effort to change my blood levels.
Blood tests at Quest diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest.

But if one does not have a doctor's script there is place that helps (below);


Try it, you may like it. Works for me.


Goals
DHEAs(500-640)mcg/dL
Progesterone(0.9-1.2)ng/mL
Pregnenolone(> 100ng/dL)
Estradiol, Ultrasensitive(25-29)pg/mL
Estrone, LC/MS/MS (23244X)
BATest(342, 460-575)ng/dL
DHT(60-90)ng/dL
FreeT3~400pg/dL
Body temperature (97.8° - 98.2°F) (36.56° - 36.78°C); (36.6-37C)(97.9-98.6F)
==========================================================
The Private MD difference:
Confidential: No doctor visit needed; we provide the lab order
Convenient: Choose the lab location best for you.....near home, near work or one convenient during travel
Affordable: No hidden charges, taxes or draw fees for blood or other lab tests

Invalid Link Removed

Estradiol $47.99
Estradiol, Sensitive $79.99

----------------------------------------------------
Estradiol, Sensitive

Description: This sensitive estradiol assay is designed for the investigation of infertility, particularly in situations where low estradiol levels can be expected. The analytic range of the assay is appropriate for the assessment of the low levels of estradiol typically observed in men, prepubertal girls, and postmenopausal women.
--------------------------------
Invalid Link Removed
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) -------- $68.99
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) Sulfate -------- $68.99
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) -------- $119.99
Estradiol, Sensitive -------- $68.49
Growth Hormone, Urine 24 Hour -------- $199.49
Hemochromatosis Screen (Comprehensive) -------- $349.99
Insulin-Like Growth Factor I (IGF-I) -------- $69.49
Male Ultimate Anti-Aging Panel -------- $299.99
Pregnenolone -------- $98.49
Progesterone -------- $44.49
Sex Hormone binding Globulin, Serum -------- $49.49
Testosterone, Free and Weakly Bound -------- $89.49
Thyroid TSH w/ Free T4 & Free T3 -------- $78.49

--------------------------------

.
/
Click to expand...

Ultrasenitive is NOT < 25-29 but rather mid range the LEF IS NOT ULTRASENSTIVE READINGS !! your comparing apples to oranges..
 
vincentv said:
Hi,

I am suffering long time side effects that have been induced by finasteride. Has anyone made any progress in getting their libido back?

I am suffering very low libido after have ceased finasteride usage 6 months ago.
Click to expand...

I have a couple of guys that I am currently helping with this issue, but they also have access to evasive testing that is helping shed some lights their issues.
 
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