CrossFit and bad form? A reality?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    TL;DR, kipping pull ups aren't intended to build your back, but are a movement used in competition, therefore it should be practiced by those who have to do it in competition?

    If that is the case, and that's a fair argument, then they should only be practiced if one intends to do Crossfit competitions (where proficiency and practice would be necessary). If one is doing Crossfit purely to get in shape or build muscle, they don't really serve a purpose that can't be achieved in a more efficient manner by a different movement or exercise. Part of the problem is people wanting to say they can do 20 pull ups (kipping) rather than 5 (strict).
    But people can compete with themselves everyday. So it's not just for actual competition. You can train to become more proficient at kipping PU so you can beat a previous time in a certain metcon. I'm not arguing that they are better than strict pull ups. Each serves a different purpose. I can do 15 strict pull ups, but I can do 15 kips faster


  2. Quote Originally Posted by BRUstrong View Post
    But people can compete with themselves everyday. So it's not just for actual competition. You can train to become more proficient at kipping PU so you can beat a previous time in a certain metcon. I'm not arguing that they are better than strict pull ups. Each serves a different purpose. I can do 15 strict pull ups, but I can do 15 kips faster
    That's true, but it goes back to the difference in your purpose in doing Crossfit. If you're doing it to get in shape and/or fun/competition, then they're fine I suppose. But my issue with them is that some people go to do Crossfit primarily with the intention of building muscle and "looking like Rich Froning" and just blindly follow the Crossfit dogma of doing whatever they're told without questioning why they're doing it, or if there is a better option. Although that's a problem with personal trainers in "normal" gyms and people doing bro splits too.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    That's true, but it goes back to the difference in your purpose in doing Crossfit. If you're doing it to get in shape and/or fun/competition, then they're fine I suppose. But my issue with them is that some people go to do Crossfit primarily with the intention of building muscle and "looking like Rich Froning" and just blindly follow the Crossfit dogma of doing whatever they're told without questioning why they're doing it, or if there is a better option. Although that's a problem with personal trainers in "normal" gyms and people doing bro splits too.
    I hear ya. Guys like Froning were jacked before they started CF. Plus, Froning trains 3-4 times per day. You're not gonna put on mass like that just doing the WOD and calling it day
  4. CrossFit and bad form? A reality?


    Quote Originally Posted by BRUstrong View Post
    I hear ya. Guys like Froning were jacked before they started CF. Plus, Froning trains 3-4 times per day. You're not gonna put on mass like that just doing the WOD and calling it day
    Exactly. It's like saying playing basketball, only playing an actual game every day, will make you look like LeBron. It's not going to happen. Practice should be different than actual games. Now, just to fuel the fire, do you think guys like Froning are on some sort of PEDs?
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    Exactly. It's like saying playing basketball, only playing an actual game every day, will make you look like LeBron. It's not going to happen. Practice should be different than actual games. Now, just to fuel the fire, do you think guys like Froning are on some sort of PEDs?
    I think so, and a lot of other people feel the same. It would be very interesting to see what would happen if they tested athletes who qualify for the Games
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by BRUstrong View Post
    I think so, and a lot of other people feel the same. It would be very interesting to see what would happen if they tested athletes who qualify for the Games
    It only makes sense that at least some of the top crossfitters would be, no? If there isn't testing, which I'm not sure if there is or isn't, it seems obvious that some people would use to try to gain an advantage, and we all know how big of an advantage it can be in a sport that does still involve a lot of lifting.
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    It only makes sense that at least some of the top crossfitters would be, no? If there isn't testing, which I'm not sure if there is or isn't, it seems obvious that some people would use to try to gain an advantage, and we all know how big of an advantage it can be in a sport that does still involve a lot of lifting.
    If there's no testing I might try it after my first lift comp

  8. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    It only makes sense that at least some of the top crossfitters would be, no? If there isn't testing, which I'm not sure if there is or isn't, it seems obvious that some people would use to try to gain an advantage, and we all know how big of an advantage it can be in a sport that does still involve a lot of lifting.
    The top competitors are either on PEDS or are absolute freaks of nature. Not just their speed, strength, and endurance, but also their recovery

  9. Quote Originally Posted by BRUstrong View Post
    The top competitors are either on PEDS or are absolute freaks of nature. Not just their speed, strength, and endurance, but also their recovery
    PEDs would help with that. You'd also figure that the desire to win, and make money, would certainly push some people to using, if they aren't already. There's actually pretty big money to be had there. If someone was close to winning naturally, and there isn't testing, which I'm not sure of, it'd be hard not to use it to win. As for the organization, it may be in their best interest to pretend to be ignorant to drug use, as it leads to bigger and stronger competitors, which Crossfit can then use to promote the sport/cult. "Look at this guy. Crossfit is why he looks like this. Do Crossfit."

    As for freaks of nature, some football players are insane, like Vernon Davis. 6'3" 240+ and ran a 4.38, benched 225x33, and had a 42" vertical at the combine.
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  10. I have done Xfit a number of times. IMO, there is nothing wrong with the actual movements, although the PU are debatable, and are used for speed.

    Speed and the clock are my biggest concern. Once the clock starts ticking, everyone goes all ape shi* and losses form. What's funny is, you do a warm up, then strength training. Everything is good at that point, most people have good form and the coach (if they are good) will walk around helping people. THEN the work out of the day (WOD) begins and the clock starts ticking. I don't care who you are, you throw 100lbs over your head 20 times as fast as you can, and you are going to lose form. That is all there is to it, some workouts just should not be rushed. This is where I think the majority of injuries occur.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by BRUstrong View Post
    The top competitors are either on PEDS or are absolute freaks of nature. Not just their speed, strength, and endurance, but also their recovery
    I think that virtually everyone at the comp level is on PED's. Especially in xfit, these guys/gals are beating the crap out of their body, then coming back the next day and doing it again. No normal person can recover like that.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Joe12 View Post
    I have done Xfit a number of times. IMO, there is nothing wrong with the actual movements, although the PU are debatable, and are used for speed.

    Speed and the clock are my biggest concern. Once the clock starts ticking, everyone goes all ape shi* and losses form. What's funny is, you do a warm up, then strength training. Everything is good at that point, most people have good form and the coach (if they are good) will walk around helping people. THEN the work out of the day (WOD) begins and the clock starts ticking. I don't care who you are, you throw 100lbs over your head 20 times as fast as you can, and you are going to lose form. That is all there is to it, some workouts just should not be rushed. This is where I think the majority of injuries occur.
    This is so true. Sometimes our coaches will stop people (whether they like it or not) when they are just getting out of control. I'll take not having the fastest time over getting hurt and being sidelined for a few weeks/months any day.

  13. I've never watched a competition for CrossFit, but do points count against your form??

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Lukewarmth94 View Post
    I've never watched a competition for CrossFit, but do points count against your form??
    Nope, but you can get a no rep if you don't go all the way through the lift.

  15. I can't wait to see what crazy stuff they pull out for this year's Games. Those ring handstand push ups though...

  16. I'm going to chime in on this...
    Going to the original point and title of the post, Crossfit can encourage bad form, but let's analyze.

    Let's say you picked up golf on your own. Without coaching, just bought some clubs and whacked around some balls. How good do you think your form would be? Now, let's say you got a coach. Not a good one, but a coach nonetheless. Your form would more than likely improve to some degree. Now, let's say you got a great coach with experience. Someone who cued form, speed, strength and created a training program to make you a better golfer. How do you think you would be after?

    Bottom line, as with anything with a high degree of technicality, coaching is key. Not to undermine the "bodybuilder" mentality, but if that's what you are looking for then Crossfit probably is going to be a major shift for you. It is entirely separate. Will you get skinnier? Yes. Will your muscles get bigger? Yes. But more than likely, the type of gains you will have will be force over looks.

    I used to train in a typical "globo gym" as we say. Motivation was hard. I had no idea how to program, and knew nothing about how a body gets stronger. Now, 6 years into Crossfit my deadlift is 515lbs, back squat 405lbs, I can run a 6:30 mile, Row a 2k in less than 7 minutes, and perform a wide variety of gymnastic movements. My coach programs and guides me and the other members of our gym with constantly varied training over a variety of time domains.

    As with most things, it's about quality. Coaching quality.

    Also, as a side note, yes times are important. But these are a measure of the intersection of strength and conditioning. Chances are if your form sucks and you do it fast you're going to pay in the long run. Whether or not you listen to your coach.

    Just my $0.02...

  17. Quote Originally Posted by DGator86 View Post
    I'm going to chime in on this...
    Going to the original point and title of the post, Crossfit can encourage bad form, but let's analyze.

    Let's say you picked up golf on your own. Without coaching, just bought some clubs and whacked around some balls. How good do you think your form would be? Now, let's say you got a coach. Not a good one, but a coach nonetheless. Your form would more than likely improve to some degree. Now, let's say you got a great coach with experience. Someone who cued form, speed, strength and created a training program to make you a better golfer. How do you think you would be after?

    Bottom line, as with anything with a high degree of technicality, coaching is key. Not to undermine the "bodybuilder" mentality, but if that's what you are looking for then Crossfit probably is going to be a major shift for you. It is entirely separate. Will you get skinnier? Yes. Will your muscles get bigger? Yes. But more than likely, the type of gains you will have will be force over looks.

    I used to train in a typical "globo gym" as we say. Motivation was hard. I had no idea how to program, and knew nothing about how a body gets stronger. Now, 6 years into Crossfit my deadlift is 515lbs, back squat 405lbs, I can run a 6:30 mile, Row a 2k in less than 7 minutes, and perform a wide variety of gymnastic movements. My coach programs and guides me and the other members of our gym with constantly varied training over a variety of time domains.

    As with most things, it's about quality. Coaching quality.

    Also, as a side note, yes times are important. But these are a measure of the intersection of strength and conditioning. Chances are if your form sucks and you do it fast you're going to pay in the long run. Whether or not you listen to your coach.

    Just my $0.02...
    What you say about times being measures of the intersection of strength and conditioning is true when utilized properly. This is a case where proper coaching is of vital importance. As you say, if you sacrifice form for time, you'll suffer in the long run (if you don't suffer an acute injury at the time), but one issue is that some people are incapable, or unwilling, to look at the big picture and long term, and would rather put up a quick time to either impress people, or compete against or beat other people (or themselves; wanting "progress" to show too quickly).

    Crossfit isn't inherently bad, and can actually be a great way to look good and get in good overall shape, it's just the perversion and dilution that comes with the growth and spread of Crossfit, as well as the desire to maximize profits from it. Unfortunately, not every box/coach is good, or even decent, and many beginners would have no way of ascertaining this, much in the same way that a beginner may not know that their local LA Fitness or YouFit trainer may not be a good, or even decent, trainer.

    What do you mean by "undermine the 'bodybuilder' mentality? Typical "bro splits" and programming? As I've said before, you can certainly get big and strong by doing crossfit, but you're not going to get "bodybuilder big" by doing it, but that's not what everyone who goes to the gym and lifts wants, even those people who do follow "bro" or "bodybuilding" splits and programming. Most people just want to get in shape and be relatively lean and muscular. Look at some mainstream Hollywood actors, and many of them that people say are very muscular and people want to have a physique like aren't all that big to many of us here, and certainly aren't "bodybuilder size" by any means. So, yes, most people can still notice muscle growth with crossfit, but a "bodybuilder," someone at a competitive level, likely won't "grow" doing only Crossfit, and I argue that crossfit is never the quickest or most ideal way to purely gain muscle, but that's not the point of it, so it's not really even a valuable comment, haha.

    At the end of the day, what type of exercise and programming you do ultimately comes down to a couple of factors. One being what your goal is. If you want to lift as much as possible, then consider strongman/powerlifting. If you want to be as muscular as possible, consider bodybuilding. If you want to get in better shape and/or "overall fitness" then you can consider crossfit. Now, that shouldn't be taken to mean that pursuing one goal means forfeiting the others, because powerlifters can be, and often are, very muscular, bodybuilders are often very strong, and Crossfit people can also be quite strong and muscular. It also depends on your health and what your body does well, especially if you want to compete at a decent level. Some people, frankly, aren't meant to lift a ton of weight (enough to be competitive powerlifters), and some people just don't have the genetics to be competitive bodybuilders. Again, that's not to say that most people can't have fun and make good progress doing something even if they're not genetically or naturally gifted at it. Injuiries also play a role here. Ever since I tore a ligament in my lower back during wrestling practice, I don't/can't deadlift super heavy, and even tend to keep squats at a non-maximal weight the vast majority of the time. That, to me, puts powerlifting out of the question, and even makes me hesitant to do a significant amount of Crossfit. Luckily for me, I've always enjoyed bodybuilding oriented training and goals the most, so it's all good.

    Anyway, that's my rant for the day, hopefully it's somewhat relevant and coherent.
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    What you say about times being measures of the intersection of strength and conditioning is true when utilized properly. This is a case where proper coaching is of vital importance. As you say, if you sacrifice form for time, you'll suffer in the long run (if you don't suffer an acute injury at the time), but one issue is that some people are incapable, or unwilling, to look at the big picture and long term, and would rather put up a quick time to either impress people, or compete against or beat other people (or themselves; wanting "progress" to show too quickly).

    Crossfit isn't inherently bad, and can actually be a great way to look good and get in good overall shape, it's just the perversion and dilution that comes with the growth and spread of Crossfit, as well as the desire to maximize profits from it. Unfortunately, not every box/coach is good, or even decent, and many beginners would have no way of ascertaining this, much in the same way that a beginner may not know that their local LA Fitness or YouFit trainer may not be a good, or even decent, trainer.

    What do you mean by "undermine the 'bodybuilder' mentality? Typical "bro splits" and programming? As I've said before, you can certainly get big and strong by doing crossfit, but you're not going to get "bodybuilder big" by doing it, but that's not what everyone who goes to the gym and lifts wants, even those people who do follow "bro" or "bodybuilding" splits and programming. Most people just want to get in shape and be relatively lean and muscular. Look at some mainstream Hollywood actors, and many of them that people say are very muscular and people want to have a physique like aren't all that big to many of us here, and certainly aren't "bodybuilder size" by any means. So, yes, most people can still notice muscle growth with crossfit, but a "bodybuilder," someone at a competitive level, likely won't "grow" doing only Crossfit, and I argue that crossfit is never the quickest or most ideal way to purely gain muscle, but that's not the point of it, so it's not really even a valuable comment, haha.

    At the end of the day, what type of exercise and programming you do ultimately comes down to a couple of factors. One being what your goal is. If you want to lift as much as possible, then consider strongman/powerlifting. If you want to be as muscular as possible, consider bodybuilding. If you want to get in better shape and/or "overall fitness" then you can consider crossfit. Now, that shouldn't be taken to mean that pursuing one goal means forfeiting the others, because powerlifters can be, and often are, very muscular, bodybuilders are often very strong, and Crossfit people can also be quite strong and muscular. It also depends on your health and what your body does well, especially if you want to compete at a decent level. Some people, frankly, aren't meant to lift a ton of weight (enough to be competitive powerlifters), and some people just don't have the genetics to be competitive bodybuilders. Again, that's not to say that most people can't have fun and make good progress doing something even if they're not genetically or naturally gifted at it. Injuiries also play a role here. Ever since I tore a ligament in my lower back during wrestling practice, I don't/can't deadlift super heavy, and even tend to keep squats at a non-maximal weight the vast majority of the time. That, to me, puts powerlifting out of the question, and even makes me hesitant to do a significant amount of Crossfit. Luckily for me, I've always enjoyed bodybuilding oriented training and goals the most, so it's all good.

    Anyway, that's my rant for the day, hopefully it's somewhat relevant and coherent.
    If it gets you off your ass, and makes you feel good, I say do it! You are 100% correct about good and bad gyms. I've seen some bad ones and get out as fast as I can.
    I didn't mean to offend with the bodybuilder comment, so if I did I apologize. I was trying to point out the difference in the goal at hand. Bodybuilding is just what the name says. It's more about aesthetics and building the body to look a certain way. Powerlifting is about pure power, strong AF and usually pretty big to go along with it. CrossFit's name is same way, cross-functional fitness.
    We are not in disagreement, just talking over the fence.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Both fruits though...right?

    Bodybuilding IME has zero functional benefits and over time is functionally detrimental.

    When I see s guy my size and weight clean and jerk for reps more weight than I can bench press I know who is more functionally fit and conditioned and is usually leaner t'boot
    Well said...can't agree more. I am sure that something like crossfit would get me in the best shape I have been in since my 20's. Problem is, I am not much of a group workout person though. I love my time in the weight room with my IPod...in the zone from OL CU and thinking about nothing else. It is my therapeutic me time which is very hard to substitute.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Joe12 View Post
    I have done Xfit a number of times. IMO, there is nothing wrong with the actual movements, although the PU are debatable, and are used for speed.

    Speed and the clock are my biggest concern. Once the clock starts ticking, everyone goes all ape shi* and losses form. What's funny is, you do a warm up, then strength training. Everything is good at that point, most people have good form and the coach (if they are good) will walk around helping people. THEN the work out of the day (WOD) begins and the clock starts ticking. I don't care who you are, you throw 100lbs over your head 20 times as fast as you can, and you are going to lose form. That is all there is to it, some workouts just should not be rushed. This is where I think the majority of injuries occur.
    I agree...that is just downright ignorant. You may as well just plan on getting injured..

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Ricky10 View Post
    I agree...that is just downright ignorant. You may as well just plan on getting injured..
    Yea, people want the best numbers they can get. It takes a lot of time and discipline to developed form that can withstand speed. That level of performance is generally reflected in elite athletes, not the stay at home mom or average dad trying to get in shape by attending xfit. Problem is, those are the majority of people that attend, and bad form and injury can accompany it.

  22. I train pretty dang intensely. I train with an ex-pro boxer. Might now of been that good, but he sure knows how to work someone's ass of.
    Also I just planned out my diet, and what not for my next cycle. Would boxing type training be appropriate for a cycle??
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