1. Fasted Cardio + ECA Stack

So I tried out fasted cardio + ECA stack for the first time this morning. Had a few questions that either aren't answered in the 'fasted cardio thread' or have conflicting opinions.

1) My target heart rate is supposedly (220-29) * .65 = 124. Since I'm using the ECA stack, though, I assume it should be a tad higher. Well, it ended up being 145-160 w/o me being winded @ all. Any explanation?

2) Should I take glutamine in the morning to prevent catabolism? I don't want any protein turning to sugar on me, but I figure some would stave off catabolism and it seems like BCAA covert to glucose so I want to avoid that.

2. Whoops, I should know better than to not post my goals!

My goal is to get my BF down and maintain/gain some lean muscle. Since I'm about 25% BF and haven't been working out consistently (until the past few weeks) I think it's achievable, say to get to 15% BF by Thanksgiving and make some moderate strength gains with 2-3x week lifting 3-4x week cardio.
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3. You should have a Target Heart Rate Range that will provide the optimum Fat Loss with out going in to catabolism. Sounds like you have the 65% (Low End Number) but you also need the 85% (High End Number).

220 - 29 (age) = 191
191 - 65 (resting heart rate) = 126
126 * 65% (low end of heart rate) OR 85% (high end) = 81.9 OR 107.1
81.9 + 65 (rhr) =146.9 107.1 + 65 (rhr) = 172.1
Your Target Heart Rate would be 147 to 172

This is the HR calculator that I use.

Target Heart Rate Calculator

I have started the "Fasted Cardio" in the morning as well. After I get warmed up I keep my heart rate between 133 and 171 bpm. This is my range that promotes the best fat loss without losing muscle according to the Link above.

I have been following this and it seems to be having good results. I also am dosing 2 Scoops of Purple Wraath during this time. In 14oz of water I will consume 1/3 before starting. Then another 1/3 to 1/2 during Cardio. The remainder is consume after Cardio. Complete Cardio takes about 28 Minutes.

4. Hey dpat,

Good point about the "High End" number...I didn't realize the 65% was a lower bound.

I think your doing your calculations differently than most, though. Everywhere I look I see:

Maximum Heart Rate = 220-29
Lower Bound Target = 65% * MHR = 124
Upper Bound Target = 85% * MHR = 162

Still, should I be worried that I'm not getting winded/tired @ all? I'm guessing that not getting tired (ie no lactic acid build up) is a good thing because lactic acid inhibits weight loss. Still, I'm having trouble getting over the fact that I'm doing less than usual, haha.

5. The formula above uses your resting heart rate in the Calculation... I do not know your so I used 65. The auto calculator takes into consideration your level of activity.

I would not worry about the not getting winded/tired part. You might find a few different calculators on the web to see if they give you the same for MIN and MAX BPM. When I hit 171 bpm I am having to breath pretty good, but I am 250lbs and hate to run. : ) However, its getting easier and easier so I am thinking at on point I will need to extend my distance. Maybe you are already to that point?

A few questions to give me an idea exact what you are doing:

Weight:
Height:
Fasted Cardio Routine:
FC Distance:
FC Time:
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6. I've only done this once so far (skipped today because I'm lifting tonight)

Weight: 175
Height: 5'6"
Fasted Cardio Routine: ECA stack, Elliptical
FC Distance: UNKNOWN
FC Time: 30 mins

7. Originally Posted by C0rk
I've only done this once so far (skipped today because I'm lifting tonight)

Weight: 175
Height: 5'6"
Fasted Cardio Routine: ECA stack, Elliptical
FC Distance: UNKNOWN
FC Time: 30 mins
Here's a suggestion you may want to consider - wait until after your fasted cardio to take your ECA stack. That way, you optimize the metabolic burn because:
1) Your fasted cardio is going to burn fat anyway - and there is no evidence that I'm aware of that the ECA stack (or any other stack) can significantly increase the rate of fat calories being burned IF you are already engaged in a fat-burning activity.
So,
2) Take the ECA stack toward the end of your workout or after you finish. That way, you can enhance and prolong the slight post-workout metabolic effect and enjoy the metabolic boost of your ECA stack, but minimize the potential negatives associated with ECA stack usage. Despite the exaggerated negative media hype, and the FDA's junk science, this is a real concern if you haven't been actively engaged in serious cardio for awhile.

I would also suggest using a supplement for BP control with your ECA such as grapeseed extract, celery seed extract with 3nb, or hawthorne berry extract. An ECA stack can be very effective, but even if you ignore the greatly exaggerated negative hype, you still need to ease into using it in a responsible way.

Good luck...

8. Whoops...I thought this thread died!

I've been taking the ECA stack for a few weeks now, started off with once and day and bumped it up to twice so I think I've been pretty responsible about it.

The ECA stack AFTER the cardio is an interesting idea though. I guess that the reasoning behind that is the stack increases your heart rate which increases metabolism, but since you are already elevating your heart rate, its useless (and potentially dangerous) to take during cardio. Instead, the goal is to have the increased heart-rate for the longest period of time, correct?

Originally Posted by the Cardinal
Here's a suggestion you may want to consider - wait until after your fasted cardio to take your ECA stack. That way, you optimize the metabolic burn because:
1) Your fasted cardio is going to burn fat anyway - and there is no evidence that I'm aware of that the ECA stack (or any other stack) can significantly increase the rate of fat calories being burned IF you are already engaged in a fat-burning activity.
So,
2) Take the ECA stack toward the end of your workout or after you finish. That way, you can enhance and prolong the slight post-workout metabolic effect and enjoy the metabolic boost of your ECA stack, but minimize the potential negatives associated with ECA stack usage. Despite the exaggerated negative media hype, and the FDA's junk science, this is a real concern if you haven't been actively engaged in serious cardio for awhile.

I would also suggest using a supplement for BP control with your ECA such as grapeseed extract, celery seed extract with 3nb, or hawthorne berry extract. An ECA stack can be very effective, but even if you ignore the greatly exaggerated negative hype, you still need to ease into using it in a responsible way.

Good luck...

9. Originally Posted by C0rk

I've been taking the ECA stack for a few weeks now, started off with once and day and bumped it up to twice so I think I've been pretty responsible about it.

The ECA stack AFTER the cardio is an interesting idea though. I guess that the reasoning behind that is the stack increases your heart rate which increases metabolism, but since you are already elevating your heart rate, its useless (and potentially dangerous) to take during cardio. Instead, the goal is to have the increased heart-rate for the longest period of time, correct?
Exactly.

As an aside, I've also discovered that taking a tablet/capsule of bioperine plus a capsule of quercetin with your post-cardio ECA stack will extend the half-life of the stack by a couple of hours (I base this on the fact I immediately become drowsy when the effect of thermogenics wear off, regardless of how often or how long I use them, and through experimentation, I've found these two supplements delay the onset of the drowsiness significantly).

10. yeah i always take my E/C first thing in the morning and it makes cardio a breeze, plus it will increase heart-rate and cause thermognisis which is beneficial during and after cardio... you wan't to take amino acids before your cardio b/c fat is the last thing your body wants to burn, its going to use up any carbs/glycogen storage you have first, and then it will start dipping into fat stores... but at the same time it will break down muscle to use for energy as well

by adding the amino acids, the body will use these for energy, before breaking down muscle into amino acids and then converting them to glucose

11. Thanks Cardinal. I agree with your sentiments, but I also agree with Movin that about 10 mins after I take the stack, I'm ready (and almost enthusiastic) to start doing my cardio and actually doing it is fun and easy.

Plus, since it's only about 40 mins of "wasted" stack time, and it takes 4-5 hours before I crash, it might not be worth it. As far as the health risks go...well...I think ephedrine is only bad for those that take like 10 tablets @ a time to get the effects of "speed" and not so much those that take it in the 20mg proportions.

Movin: Isn't taking BCAA b4 fasted cardio counter-productive? I've always been of the philosophy that the body burns muscle only when it doesn't think it will need it in the future so as long as you lift consistently, it won't. Taking AA beforehand tells your body that protein is your food source so it will start burning protein.

I'm not a expert lifter like a lot of y'all, but I seem to be steadily making gains in my lifts while cutting fat...but perhaps that's just my advantage as a beginner/intermediate body-builder!

12. Originally Posted by dpatterson
You should have a Target Heart Rate Range that will provide the optimum Fat Loss with out going in to catabolism. Sounds like you have the 65% (Low End Number) but you also need the 85% (High End Number).

220 - 29 (age) = 191
191 - 65 (resting heart rate) = 126
126 * 65% (low end of heart rate) OR 85% (high end) = 81.9 OR 107.1
81.9 + 65 (rhr) =146.9 107.1 + 65 (rhr) = 172.1
Your Target Heart Rate would be 147 to 172

This is the HR calculator that I use.

Target Heart Rate Calculator
A few items don't make sense and are wrong.

That target HR% is too high if fat burning is your primary goal of your cardio.

147 to 172 THR for a 29 yo man equates to 77-90% MHR.

That is not fat burning zone. Fat burning zone is 60-70% MHR. For a 29 yo man that equates to 115-135 THR.

Fasted cardio at 77-90% MHR will surely make you catabolic, especially if you are in a calorie deficit. At that THR you are burning more calories but a majority will come from glycogen and not fat. The reason we do fasted cardio at a low THR is because we want to tap into fat store and not glycogen.

The Truth About the Fat Burning Zone - Your Target Heart Rate

13. Originally Posted by C0rk
1) My target heart rate is supposedly (220-29) * .65 = 124. Since I'm using the ECA stack, though, I assume it should be a tad higher. Well, it ended up being 145-160 w/o me being winded @ all. Any explanation?
It can be higher at the same rate of activity. But it does not necessarily need to be higher and out of your THR.

Ephedrine stimulates beta-receptors. Beta-1 sends fat-mobilisation signals to the fat-cells. Beta-2 and 3 signal the mitochondria to use more fatty acids to produce heat. With this beta-team responding to ephedrine, fat gets burnt.

So in essence you don't necessarily need to increase your HR (or maybe even shouldn't) to get results. By stimulating the receptors it potentiates the results doing what you already do.

14. Originally Posted by C0rk
Thanks Cardinal. I agree with your sentiments, but I also agree with Movin that about 10 mins after I take the stack, I'm ready (and almost enthusiastic) to start doing my cardio and actually doing it is fun and easy.

Plus, since it's only about 40 mins of "wasted" stack time, and it takes 4-5 hours before I crash, it might not be worth it. As far as the health risks go...well...I think ephedrine is only bad for those that take like 10 tablets @ a time to get the effects of "speed" and not so much those that take it in the 20mg proportions.

Movin: Isn't taking BCAA b4 fasted cardio counter-productive? I've always been of the philosophy that the body burns muscle only when it doesn't think it will need it in the future so as long as you lift consistently, it won't. Taking AA beforehand tells your body that protein is your food source so it will start burning protein.

I'm not a expert lifter like a lot of y'all, but I seem to be steadily making gains in my lifts while cutting fat...but perhaps that's just my advantage as a beginner/intermediate body-builder!

The body is constantly breaking down muscle for energy and then rubuilding it throughout the day

when you do fasted cardio your body is low on carbs and glycogen retention so it forces the body to use other sources of energy for it's needs which are fat/protein

even though the body will use your fat storage for energy it will also breakdown muscle tissue as well and then convert the aminoacids from the muscle into energy to get through your cardio session, and during fasted cardio this will happen at a faster rate than if you had ingested a bunch of carbs

basically fat is your body's final reserves when it comes to energy and it is more reluctent to use fat for energy than other sources, so the point of taking aminos prior to your cardio session is that your body will use the aminos first, before dipping into your muscle tissue for energy

however this becomes more vital when you reach lower BF percentages and get closer to your maximum gentic potential and since your making steady progress so far it may not be as neccessary, but you will eventually notice after some time that it becomes increasingly difficult to add muscle and lose fat at the same time

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