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Fat loss diet - so confused?

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    Fat loss diet - so confused?


    I have been at the same weight for almost over 3 years. It's mind-boggling to me. I'm extremely frustrated over it. It seems like I can never ever lose weight/fat at all.

    I know that I need to lift, do cardio, and eat properly. But, I think the biggest downfall for me has been my diet. I always spend hours trying to calculate my calorie needs and I seem to get different numbers all the time.

    So without a further ado, I hope anyone can help me tell me if this diet is correct.

    ------------------------------------

    Personal Stats:
    -Weight = 225-230 lbs
    -Bodyfat = I don't know for sure. i think somewhere near 25%, I wear a size 38-40 jeans if that gives you any picture.
    -Height = 6'0
    -Age = 20

    I've been reading up on macronutrients and it seems that 40/40/20 seems to be the most optimal. I tried to calculate a 50/30/20 diet but that seemed way too many carbs for me to consume even on a cut. So, I opted for the 40/40/20 diet.

    Here is the diet plan below:

    1) MEAL #1 = 535 cals (12g fats, 70g carbs, 41g pro)
    -1 cup oatmeal
    -5 egg whites (w/ olive oil to cook on pan)
    -1 small yogurt
    -1 cup chocolate milk (low fat, low carb modified milk)

    2) MEAL #2 = 520 cals (6.5g fats, 71.5g carbs, 45g pro)
    -1.5 cup brown rice
    -3oz roast beef
    -1 cup veggies
    -1oz beef jerky

    3) PWO SHAKE (After lifting) = 410 cals (3g fats, 41g carbs, 54g pro)
    -2 scoops whey
    -3 scoops dextrose/gatorade powder

    4) MEAL #4 = 520 cals (6.5g fats, 71.5g carbs, 45g pro)
    -1.5 cup brown rice
    -3oz roast beef
    -1 cup veggies
    -1oz beef jerky

    5) MEAL #5 = 535 cals (20.75g fats, 11g carbs, 49g pro)
    -Protein Smoothie (skim milk + whey+ fruit)
    -1 tbsp olive oil / almonds

    6) MEAL #6 (bed) = 350 cals (8g fats, 11g carbs, 62g pro)
    -1 cup chocolate milk
    -2 scoops whey


    TOTALS: ~2800 calories, 60g fats, 285g carbs, 296g pro
    TOTALS: ~19% fats, 40% carbs, 41% protein

    ----------------------------------

    A couple notes here:

    1. I don't eat any seafood at all, so thats not included such as fish.

    2. I sometimes substitute chicken in there for the beef, but I prefer beef at the moment for my taste buds.

    3. I can not stomach cottage cheese. I've tried many times and it always goes in the trash.

    4. I plan to work out lifting weights 3x per week and doing cardio at least 4-5x a week.

    --------------------------------

    A couple questions:

    1. Does the PWO shake actually count as a meal?


    2. I've been using a different diet at the moment which has caused me to crash and have no energy at all. Faulty planning due to my part. I can't even do any workouts because of the lack of energy. Will this diet above provide me enough energy to perform all these workouts during the week?


    3. I understand that you're supposed to "keep your body guessing" in order to constantly burn fat. I'm not sure if it's OK to follow this diet exactly day-in and day-out without change (with the exception of reducing calories when losing weight) for a couple months?

    I guess I want to cycle my calories, but I am absolutely confused in how to do that with this plan and with my stats. My calculations gave me some enormous numbers which I'm not sure are correct. For example, I've read about carb cycling with a 3 days on + 1 day off approach. But, I'm not entirely sure how to go about that.


    4. On lifting days, there is a PWO shake provided. What should I do on the non-lifting days AKA cardio days where I do not need a PWO shake at all? Should I replace that with a full normal meal (complex carbs, fats, protein)?

    -----------------------


    Thanks for any help in consideration.

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    One thing you left out is water intake, that can be a critical part of it. Another question I'd have is whether you are trying to do more of a recomp, or a strict cut. Have you ever tried any of the ketogenic diets before too or even given thought to them?
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    I drink more than enough water, that's why I forgot to include that in my post. It's second nature to me like taking a multivitamin is.

    What is a recomp? Do you mean trying to get on track to maintenance?

    My goals are to lose fat. I've been trying to lose fat for the last couple months to a year, but nothing has come up to fruition for me.

    I have tried a keto diet before. I had bad results with it as I actually gained all my fat on it. I must have done something wrong and that was the point of 3 years ago when I did keto. I have never done it ever since because it gave me a health scare to the point where I was weak and gave me a bunch of mental cloudiness, so I've pretty much sworn off it.

    But, thanks for your response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MiseryB View Post
    I drink more than enough water, that's why I forgot to include that in my post. It's second nature to me like taking a multivitamin is.

    What is a recomp? Do you mean trying to get on track to maintenance?

    My goals are to lose fat. I've been trying to lose fat for the last couple months to a year, but nothing has come up to fruition for me.

    I have tried a keto diet before. I had bad results with it as I actually gained all my fat on it. I must have done something wrong and that was the point of 3 years ago when I did keto. I have never done it ever since because it gave me a health scare to the point where I was weak and gave me a bunch of mental cloudiness, so I've pretty much sworn off it.

    But, thanks for your response.
    Well, more than enough is still a questionable amount. Is that 8 8oz glasses a day (64oz, the surgeon general recommended) over a gallon, 2 gallons? part of it is helping with appetite control, part is just flushing everything.

    A recomp is when you are trying to loose fat, while gaining lean mass, trying to keep at the same overall weight, but lowering body fat % a cut would be a loose weight + loose fat scenario.

    It ends up being a bit different for each. Your diet in and of itself looks good, and should be a bit under maintenance. So you've tried a diet close to that before and it didn't work?

    What about supplements, including vitamins? take any ? ZMA, HMB and CLA can be very helpful parts of the fat loss process.
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    Forget stuff like Keto. You're on the right track with your diet as it is and you can make small additions/subtractions to change up the total calorie intake based on your goals. I also agree water intake is important, but I wonder what kind of cardio you do. I highly recommend Max OT Cardio or some other high intensity interval training. Commit to it for a month or so and make sure you're constantly pushing the intensity up. Low intensity long distance cardio is a waste of time.
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    http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/ may be of some help, slowly reduce your calories below your BMR.
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    I would go for 40/40/10 instead but thats just my personal opinion.

    If your gonna eat a big meal around your workout, do it afterwards, infact try doing your cardio on an empty stomach or dont have many carbs before cardio. Fish oil will also help a bit.

    I would cut out the oatmeal(save it for after cardio whenever that is) and olive oil from this, and make sure the yogurt isnt too high in sugar or fat, also add in 2 egg yolks from those eggs if you dont have a cholesterol problem.
    1) MEAL #1 = 535 cals (12g fats, 70g carbs, 41g pro)
    -1 cup oatmeal
    -5 egg whites (w/ olive oil to cook on pan)
    -1 small yogurt
    -1 cup chocolate milk (low fat, low carb modified milk)

    Make sure the beef is extra trim. Beef is good for preworkout because of the creatine in it, But I would limit the rice to half a cup.
    2) MEAL #2 = 520 cals (6.5g fats, 71.5g carbs, 45g pro)
    -1.5 cup brown rice
    -3oz roast beef
    -1 cup veggies
    -1oz beef jerky

    I would get rid of the gatoraid here.
    3) PWO SHAKE (After lifting) = 410 cals (3g fats, 41g carbs, 54g pro)
    -2 scoops whey
    -3 scoops dextrose/gatorade powder

    4) MEAL #4 = 520 cals (6.5g fats, 71.5g carbs, 45g pro)
    -1.5 cup brown rice
    -3oz roast beef
    -1 cup veggies
    -1oz beef jerky

    I would replace the olive oil with fish oil.
    5) MEAL #5 = 535 cals (20.75g fats, 11g carbs, 49g pro)
    -Protein Smoothie (skim milk + whey+ fruit)
    -1 tbsp olive oil / almonds

    almost 8grams of fat from chocolate milk? I would get skim milk and add chocolate flavouring.
    6) MEAL #6 (bed) = 350 cals (8g fats, 11g carbs, 62g pro)
    -1 cup chocolate milk
    -2 scoops whey
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    I would go for 40/40/10 instead but thats just my personal opinion.
    Did you mean 50/40/10 ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMOKEPALADIN View Post
    Did you mean 50/40/10 ?
    no, he was trying to clip off 10% of the calories
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    I would go for 40/40/10 instead but thats just my personal opinion.

    If your gonna eat a big meal around your workout, do it afterwards, infact try doing your cardio on an empty stomach or dont have many carbs before cardio. Fish oil will also help a bit.

    I would cut out the oatmeal(save it for after cardio whenever that is) and olive oil from this, and make sure the yogurt isnt too high in sugar or fat, also add in 2 egg yolks from those eggs if you dont have a cholesterol problem.
    1) MEAL #1 = 535 cals (12g fats, 70g carbs, 41g pro)
    -1 cup oatmeal
    -5 egg whites (w/ olive oil to cook on pan)
    -1 small yogurt
    -1 cup chocolate milk (low fat, low carb modified milk)

    Make sure the beef is extra trim. Beef is good for preworkout because of the creatine in it, But I would limit the rice to half a cup.
    2) MEAL #2 = 520 cals (6.5g fats, 71.5g carbs, 45g pro)
    -1.5 cup brown rice
    -3oz roast beef
    -1 cup veggies
    -1oz beef jerky

    I would get rid of the gatoraid here.
    3) PWO SHAKE (After lifting) = 410 cals (3g fats, 41g carbs, 54g pro)
    -2 scoops whey
    -3 scoops dextrose/gatorade powder

    4) MEAL #4 = 520 cals (6.5g fats, 71.5g carbs, 45g pro)
    -1.5 cup brown rice
    -3oz roast beef
    -1 cup veggies
    -1oz beef jerky

    I would replace the olive oil with fish oil.
    5) MEAL #5 = 535 cals (20.75g fats, 11g carbs, 49g pro)
    -Protein Smoothie (skim milk + whey+ fruit)
    -1 tbsp olive oil / almonds

    almost 8grams of fat from chocolate milk? I would get skim milk and add chocolate flavouring.
    6) MEAL #6 (bed) = 350 cals (8g fats, 11g carbs, 62g pro)
    -1 cup chocolate milk
    -2 scoops whey
    I can't possibly disagree more about doing cardio on an empty stomach. Your body needs energy, especially when being stressed, like during exercise. It will get its energy one way or another. If it can't get the energy from your stomach, it will break down your muscle tissue, not your fat, to get it. Besides, the fat burning you get from cardio does not happen during the cardio. It happens after the cardio due to increased metabolism. I'm not saying have a huge meal beforehand, but you do need to have calories of some sort for energy. The easiest macronutrient to convert into energy? Carbs. So don't cut out carbs right before cardio either.

    I do agree with having a big meal after lifting, however. In fact, make it a few small meals within 3 hours of lifting. I'll typically consume about 800 calories in the 3 hours post-workout. Those all go towards building muscle, so it's a good time to eat. But don't take out the Gatorade. People think sugar is the enemy. It is, but only the wrong kind at the wrong time. Gatorade is primarily dextrose, which is beneficial for spiking insulin and speeding nutrient absorption. That's why it's good pre and post-workout. Other than those times sugar should be minimized. But it's not only OK post workout, it's perfect. Do a web search on the Anabolic Nutrient Timing Factor and take advantage of it.

    Also, there's nothing wrong with olive oil and the creatine in beef is so negligible that it doesn't do jack. Use supplements to get your fish oil and creatine. I'm done now...
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    Quote Originally Posted by EctoPower View Post
    I can't possibly disagree more about doing cardio on an empty stomach. Your body needs energy, especially when being stressed, like during exercise. It will get its energy one way or another. If it can't get the energy from your stomach, it will break down your muscle tissue, not your fat, to get it. Besides, the fat burning you get from cardio does not happen during the cardio. It happens after the cardio due to increased metabolism. I'm not saying have a huge meal beforehand, but you do need to have calories of some sort for energy. The easiest macronutrient to convert into energy? Carbs. So don't cut out carbs right before cardio either.
    So much of that is wrong.

    Your glycogen levels are lowest in the morning. When your body can't get glycogen (from carbs) to fuel your body, it starts with lipolysis - from wikipedia

    Lipolysis is the breakdown of fat stored in fat cells. During this process, free fatty acids are released into the bloodstream and circulate throughout the body...

    The following hormones induce lipolysis: epinephrine, norepinephrine, glucagon and adrenocorticotropic hormone. These trigger 7TM receptors, which activate adenylate cyclase. This results in increased production of cAMP, which activates protein kinase A, which subsequently activate lipases found in adipose tissue.
    Triglycerides undergo lipolysis (hydrolysis by lipases) and are broken down into glycerol and fatty acids. Once released into the blood, the relatively hydrophobic free fatty acids bind to serum albumin for transport to tissues that require energy

    Your body produces glucagon when there isn't enough glycogen in your bloodstream. The fallacy of burning muscle first has more to do with intensity. If you are doing your cardio to the point of muscle failure, or call it 90-100% intensity, then yes, you will go out of lipolysis because your body is forcing as much blood as possible to those muscles, and very little is going to the fat. If you keep intensity lower, you will continue to feed enough fuel to the fat cells to continue to release into bloodstream as fuel for at least 40 minutes, possibly as long as an hour. Again, it starts becoming an intensity issue, keeping your heart rate at 110 for over an hour is exhausting and you end up having to continue to lower resistance to do that. When the muscles start to grab more blood flow, the fat coming into the bloodstream slows down or ends.

    So the fat loss can and does come directly from your body using the fat as fuel. Alternatively to this, you can try and do a MAX-OT type high intensity cardio for no more than 20 minutes on the empty stomach, and possibly also be gaining muscle. a good article that I may get banned for linking to (its on bb.com) is this

    high repetition clean and jerks

    The trick with the MAX-OT is to get 4 minutes warmup to get lipolysis started, then go completely gangbusters to max aerobic heart rate with high intensity stuff for 16 minutes. Your body stops lipolysis sometime during that 16 minutes, but research shows that there is a far amount of fat in the bloodstream when it does stop, and that will continue to fuel you for the rest of that 16 minutes.

    If you go the MAX-OT route, you definitely want to be able to get your protein/carb meal in as fast afterwards as you can, your meal #1 would work so long as you could start eating it fairly quickly after. The reason for that is that there is strength/size gain potential, and you don't want to waste the opportunity by being protein starved.
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    You *may* lose some muscle mass doing empty stomach, morning cardio. Even doing low to moderate intensity, it's a possibility, and no one will deny that. But you WILL lose fat, period. If this poster is absolutely stuck in their progress, then this could be a viable option.

    As for diet, if you've not tried carb cycling I would suggest to give one of the many carb cycling diets a shot.
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    Easy,

    I don't believe in doing any workout at less than full intensity. Just seems like a waste of time to me. And I'm guessing that somebody who is stuck on their fat loss progress has probably been lacking intensity more than anything. So I disagree to a point about low intensity cardio for this guy. If there is a way to burn fat and save your muscle AND do it in a shorter amount of time, why the h*ll would you do it any other way?

    But we're probably further confusing the guy who has already stated that he is confused, so I'll bow out of this conversation. Good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EctoPower View Post
    Easy,

    I don't believe in doing any workout at less than full intensity. Just seems like a waste of time to me. And I'm guessing that somebody who is stuck on their fat loss progress has probably been lacking intensity more than anything. So I disagree to a point about low intensity cardio for this guy. If there is a way to burn fat and save your muscle AND do it in a shorter amount of time, why the h*ll would you do it any other way?

    But we're probably further confusing the guy who has already stated that he is confused, so I'll bow out of this conversation. Good luck.
    Good point about the intensity! I like to refer to my HIT program as 'command and conquer'; Pick out a solid, effective, compound movement for each muscle group... I go from push to pull or vice versa (ex. delts, chest, back, shoulders, legs, triceps, abs)... execute the exercise with utter precision until absolute failure... then move on to the next muscle. It's funny when I walk into the gym and look around and see the big, bulky, beefy macho man standing by the bench press with his 45's all loaded up... then I bang out an entire full body workout in 30 minutes and leave the gym drenched in sweat... and I notice that the dude is still amping himself up for the bench press. LOL.

    As far as diet? It's not working because everyone's body is different! There is no golden ratio. I have done the 'perfect diet' with the 40/40/20 macronutrient ratio and have taken a crap-load of supps for fat control and still struggled around 12% bodyfat... I was also lethargic most of the time on that diet too.

    Now? My diet is much different. I get my carbs from fruits and vegetables only, except post weight training. A typical meal would be: broiled chicken breast with steamed and seasoned veggies and some almonds or macadamian nuts. I eat fruit in between meals when I want... mostly berries and apples. Post weight training I'll have 2 organic toaster pastries and 60 grams of Oryx Goat Whey.... I eat healthy and eat as much as I want and usually end up eating 6-7 times a day, not including fruit servings.

    I am taking Poseidon, Incarnate, additional cissus, Blueprint (agmatine), and a few New Chapter products (like Holy Basil, stress support multi, neurozyme, mental clarity... all for focus) and Rainbow Lightning... good for anti-oxidants. This is my staple stack. Granted it isn't inexpensive... you won't see any hormonal products or fat burners here...

    With my diet (eating lifestyle) and lack of 'mainly synthetic' products, I've never been more ripped nor have I been more physically apt. I have also never felt more focused and energetic.

    I am extremely active and keeping weight and staying cut is no big deal. I teach circuit training classes 3 mornings a week, take private taekwondo lessons twice a week, private krav maga lessons twice a week, lift HIT weight sessions 2-3 times a week (30 minute sessions), swim in the pool about 1-2 times a week (1 mile equivalent each time) and ocean kayak once a week.
    My old lifestyle would not permit any of this.

    Also, worrying about counting calories ... I don't want to say anything and get people bashing on me, "YOU HAVE TO COUNT CALORIES YOU JACKASS!" lol... I don't. Then again, I'm not a bodybuilder... I'm an athlete. I prefer to be a jack-of-all trades then a glorified, aesthetically apt, action figure
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    As far as diet? It's not working because everyone's body is different! There is no golden ratio.
    Same with cardio levels and everything else. There are no silver bullets. Its all a lot of trial and error to maximize results. The "golden standards" are just that, they generally work well for most people, but at the same time variations work better for lots of people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Also, worrying about counting calories ... I don't want to say anything and get people bashing on me, "YOU HAVE TO COUNT CALORIES YOU JACKASS!" lol... I don't. Then again, I'm not a bodybuilder... I'm an athlete. I prefer to be a jack-of-all trades then a glorified, aesthetically apt, action figure
    I agree with this as well. Yes you need to have a pretty close idea of your total intake, but even 100 calories off either way is not hugely significant if you are active, and your overall diet is targeted at 600-800 cal under maintenance. If you are taking in a relatively low fat diet, its not too hard to be within that sort of range. To me its mostly the fats you have to really keep a hard eye on, as they are the highest density. a tablespoon of flax oil is over 125 calories, but in chicken breast that would be almost half a cupful to make the same calories. So if you watch the fats (and take in fats on purpose in the right amounts) and the rest of what you eat are healthy, you don't necessarily have to be anal about calorie counts.

    Intensity can be a piece of the puzzle too, but I wouldn't say thats necessarily the primary reason someone would be stuck in fat loss. You don't have to train like a spartan to get fat loss, I lost 30 pounds all in fat between jan 30 and may 14th at low to medium intensities.
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