Mission: Lose As Much Fat as Possible in 19 Days (Last Minute Trip)
- 12-07-2005, 06:50 PM
Mission: Lose As Much Fat as Possible in 19 Days (Last Minute Trip)
Alright My AM Brethren,
I need some help. I've been bulking steadily for a while now, and I'm carrying more pudge then I'd like to. B/C of an unexpected last minute event, I will be headed to S.America for the holidays
As you may already know, it is summer south of the equator; I'm carrying my bulking pudge, and I want to shred as much as possible. I'd love to get some suggestions for how to lose as much fat as possible in these 19 days. I'm thinking UD2 could be in order, but it takes some time to dial it in.
For supps, I have 2 MP betas at my disposal, and I can run the NHA stack. I may have to visit a certain friend at a supp shop b/c internet ordering will take too long. (Clen, etc. are out of the question b/c of time).
Obviously, I'll be keeping the protein high and cranking up the cardio.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
- 12-07-2005, 07:43 PM
Well to bad clen is out of it. That works fast and effectively. You could always have some expressed to you, takes like 2 days. Have it saturday and more than 2 weeks to run it.
- 12-07-2005, 08:24 PM
Metformin or Glucophase XR to help partition carbs, lean extreme or other cortisol lowering compound, Nutrex Lipo-6 stacked with ephedrine, and lastly some Sesathin. Oh and obviously diet is key.
12-07-2005, 09:06 PM
PSMF = Protein Sparing Modified Fast
Set protein at 1 gram per pound. Keep carbs in th 50-100g range. Keep fat below 50g, and that puts you in the 1500 calorie range.
Lift heavy. Keep volume low. Do light cardio.
You can expect to see 2-4 pounds of pure fat loss for a short period of time before you body adjusts things to compensate.
Drugs will help some, but when you are cutting really hard, the difference they make means less and less.
12-07-2005, 09:37 PM
If you pay for the express shipping you can get liquid clen in two days from CEM.....that should be plenty fast. I did that myself. Stuff is great.
12-07-2005, 09:38 PM
If you order Liquid Clen from CEM and express ship it you can have it in two days. Thats what i did. Fast and effective.
12-07-2005, 09:57 PM
Snakebyte, you gave me an idea. I just spoke to IBE Customer Service today b/c my Oratropin isn't in yet. They said their new shipment should be there already, so maybe tomorrow. Maybe they can add clen to my order. The shipping will be overnight.
I'm trying to figure out what diet to use. I know the best way to cut, but it would require more time. I might try carb cycling.
I have the GXR and LX. I don't think I can get Sesathin in time, but I'll see.
12-07-2005, 10:09 PM
12-07-2005, 10:40 PM
12-07-2005, 11:09 PM
Ive never tried Clen Beo but if it were me, id so hit up the MP, but thats just me. Good luck tho on the cutting!
E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns
12-07-2005, 11:22 PM
If you go longer than 2 weeks or so, yeah. But sounds like you'll have just enough time to do one run of it.Originally Posted by Beowulf
Maybe make christmas your refeed.
12-07-2005, 11:30 PM
I wouldn't use the MP because you'd likely still be holding water during the trip. Are you burnt out on EC? I found EC plus nicotine to be an awesome stack. No change in diet and I burnt off a good 10 pounds in 2 weeks..of course I was painting a house all day, everyday during that time so I was basically doing all day cardio lol.
I find clen with 2 cups of coffee prior to 45-60 minutes of morning cardio to be very effective as well. Of the two stacks, I prefer EC as the energy is more consistent..Clen tires me out by early afternoon.
12-08-2005, 12:51 AM
Yea true, but i beleive MP is said to raise ur metab faster then clen which is why i offered it up. Could he use drying up product, i cant remember hte name they use or the term they use. LOL.. Something like shredz from SAN or somethin for precontest water shedding. Would that work if he went the MP waY?
Seems like ur best way is to just hop on clen, but i figured id offer it up.
E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns
12-08-2005, 01:09 AM
I'd have IBE shoot you (express) some albuterol (or clen if you prefer--either one), stacked with your MP, GXR, LX, etc. Might consider carb-cycling as a good way to shake things up, doing some really restricted days, some moderates, and some refeeds. Might try this after you go a few days on the aforementioned 1500 cal days. I would not do that type of day for more than 2 days in a row, because I go catabolic quickly. Others may be different.
Kick in some moderate cardio--or if you are doing some, I'd up it a little (but not too much, because you're gonna be taxing yourself in other ways).
Eat clean, sleep, and move confidently forward! I'm sure the vacation will be great!
12-08-2005, 01:24 AM
19 days isnt a lot of time...if you had a full month Id say the NHA stack and a short CKD, but with only 19 days I think you'd just drop a bunch of water and feel like you got hit by a bus
Carb cycling is a great idea though, keep cals+carbs low for 2-3 days and eat about maitenance every 4th day to keep your body guessing. Im a firm believer in timing your carbs throughout the day, too. If you're eating 6 meals a day, get all your carbs in the first 4 meals, and make the last two lean protien, fibrous veg, and clean fats.
If you could do that, eat super-clean, up your cardio a bit and use the supplements mentioned,I bet you'd see some good results.
12-08-2005, 02:52 AM
Pulled From AVANTs Online Magazine
**** My Ass is Fat: A Simple Approach to Rapid Fat Loss
Spring is here. The trees are blooming, the beaches are getting crowded, and the time to shed those winter pounds has come. Yes, itís diet season for us bodybuilding types. Love it or hate it, the summer is the season of skin. And while sleeve-stretching arms are great, if theyíre accompanied by a protruding midsection, hiding it becomes a helluva a lot trickier this time of year.
I donít know about you, but I canít stand prolonged dieting. As Jay-Z would say, I have no patienceÖand I hate waiting. I guess you could call me an extremist, which as many of you probably know is a virtue and a vice. And, Iím guessing that this is a trait many of you can identify with. Bodybuilding tends to be a haven for us obsessive types, for whom moderation is boring, and even alien.
And thus, I have no desire to diet from March to June, the whole time knowing that in order to maintain my results Iíll be spending the entire summer eating like a bird. And that my friends is why Iíve developed this little 14-day diet plan.
Now before I go into the details of this plan, let me explain some things. First, I hold no pretense that what I am about to recommend is particularly novel. Threads in the Avant forums have been devoted to variations on this type of diet, as have old articles from our friends at testosterone.net. And, I fully acknowledge that I have borrowed from this knowledge bank while preparing my plan, particularly from Spook. My goal with this article is to provide a rather simple, but not overly simple, approach to a two week ďsteroid starvationĒ diet.
While researching plans of this nature, I found that the information was either overwhelming or oversimplified. Often, the discussion became (as it so often does in Avantís forums) so elaborate and damned intelligent (in a good but erudite way) that it called for an endless number of supplements to cover every possible angle, and left everyone but the supplement-science elite rather confused. My formal background is not one of scienceóI received my B.A. in Comparative Literature for instance. And, while I fancy myself rather knowledgeable in training, diet, and supplementation (for an autodidact), I make no claims to be an elite supplement guru. And, it is for those like me that I write this article.
So, one thing I wanted to do was craft a dieting plan that was somewhat simple in terms of recommend supplements. Often, as the science of supplements is explored, a laundry list of possibly beneficial compounds emerges. Not only does the cost increase, it becomes damn confusing for the average (or even above average) trainee to understand what the hell is going onówhat this does, what thatís for, etc.
So thatís basically the premise behind this plan; now enough banter, letís get to the details! I will first discuss the mandatory supplements you will need, after which I will touch briefly on some beneficial adjuncts you might choose to employ should finances permit. I will then outline the diet, followed by some general training recommendations. Before I continue, I want to state that I accept no responsibility for any potential consequences resulting from a diet and supplement regimen like this. Given the recommended supplements, it is imperative that you monitor your blood pressure as well as your heart rate on a regular basis. As always, proceed at your own risk, and consult a physician before starting any exercise or diet program.
First, if youíre not comfortable or are unable to use a rather strong androgen, this program isnít for you. There is no way, given the recommended calorie range required for rapid fat loss, that your body can positively tolerate this program without the muscle-friendly (and fat burning, I might add) help of AAS. So, in terms of over-the-counter options, some good choices include1-test or Methyl 1-test. Be sure to use a moderate to heavy dose, depending on prior androgen experience and/or bodyweight.
Additionally, SesaThin and Fish Oil should be used to accelerate fat oxidation and enhance changes in body composition. Remember that when using SesaThin, your Fish Oil intake can be approximately halved from what it typically is.
Weíre also going to want to use LipoDerm-Ultra. Not only with this aid in fat reduction around trouble areas, but with the large calorie deficit this plan creates, LipoDerm should help ensure there is a constant and abundant supply of liberated fatty acids for oxidation. If you can afford to do so, be more liberal with application sites than you normally would.
Next Iíd recommend some type of stimulant. Whether you use the traditional ephedrine/caffeine stack, or Avantís new H.E.A.T. Stack, follow the manufacturerís dosing instructions and be sure to opt for the higher end of the dosing protocol (after you have assessed tolerance, of course).
And, what would a diet be without LeptiGen. Given the extremity of this regimen, Iíd advocate use of original LeptiGen at 5 tablespoons per day, spaced between meals. This will provide creatine pyruvate as well, which is a plus. Iíll get into specifics later when I lay out the diet plan.
So, to reiterate: SesaThin, LipoDerm-Ultra, E/C or H.E.A.T. Stack and LeptiGen (original).
So, the core supplements of the program laid out, other compounds that would be quite helpful include:
7-keto/7-oxo (preferably topical; if oral, 300-400mgs/day)
The Diet: Tuna Anyone?
Now that weíve gotten the supplement side of things out of the way, letís turn to the diet. And what an exciting diet this is! I damn well hope that you like Chunk Light Tuna, because thatís basically all youíll be living off of for the next 14 days. Albacore may taste better, however it has a bit more calories and costs significantly more. If youíd like to substitute Albacore for Chunk Light, go ahead and do so, however you must factor in the additional 25 calories per can and reduce consumption accordingly. Either way, look at living off of tuna this way: given how damned cheap your daily food supply will cost, forking over a bit of cash on supplements is far easier to justify.
In addition to tuna, some Whey protein can be used post-workout, as could some BCAAs. I donít really think itís necessary, though some will undoubtedly herald this statement as an indication that Iím a blasphemer of all things holy. Look, if you have Whey or BCAAs (ICE anyone?) laying around the house, great, use them. If not, Iím really not going to tell you that you have to run out and drop the cash for either. Remember, this is a KISS approach here. In addition to tuna, youíre free to eat as much lettuce and fat free/sugar free dressing as you like.
As an aside, if youíre really odd, you can mix your tuna with lettuce, vinegar, Tabasco and garlic powder. This sounds like balls to me, but someone I know swears by it. Of course, someone else around these parts swears by broccoli, mustard and splenda. Do we need anymore proof that dieting ****s up your head?
To round out the tuna and lettuce, youíre going to need some Fish Oiló10 caps per day should do it, given that the inclusion of SesaThin allows you to notably reduce your Fish Oil intake. Also, because youíll be using a hefty dose of androgens, dietary fatís role in keeping testosterone levels up is not something you need to be terribly worried about (though this is something youíll need to consider post-cycleómore on this later).
Total calories should hover in the range of 5-7 calories per pound of bodyweight, which is damn low (those that donít want to risk too much LBM loss can jump to 8 calories per pound). Brace yourself for some hunger pangs, moodiness, mental fogginess and lack of energy. Sleeping will seem appealing all day Iím sure, until of course you get in bed only to find you have insomnia. Bottom line: donít undertake this program during a high-stress time at work, school, etc.
But I digress. Letís get back to the daily regimen. Ideally, for someone who weighs 200-210lbs, your diet should look something like this (this is just an exampleómake changes based on sleep patterns, weight, etc., as needed):
7:30 A.M. Apply 6-8 squirts LipoDerm-Ultra (after assessing tolerance)*Notes: Depending on what time you workout, you can substitute in 150 calories worth of Whey protein in place of tuna for your post-workout feeding.
8:00 A.M. 1 Can Tuna, 2 Fish Oil Caps, Lettuce if you like = 170 calories
9:30 A.M. 1 Scoop LeptiGen, 1 Cap SesaThin = 37 calories
11:30 A.M. 1 Can Tuna, 2 Fish Oil Caps, Lettuce if you like = 170 calories
1:00 P.M. 1 Scoop LeptiGen, 1 Serving SesaThin = 37 calories
3:00 P.M. 1 Can Tuna, 2 Fish Oil Caps, Lettuce if you like = 170 calories
4:30 P.M. 1 Scoop LeptiGen, 1 Serving SesaThin = 37 calories
6:30 P.M 1 Can Tuna, Lettuce if you like = 170 calories
7:30 P.M. Apply 6-8 Squirts LipoDerm-Ultra
9:00 P.M 1/2 Can Tuna, 2 Fish Oil Caps, Lettuce if you like = 95 calories
9:30 P.M. 1 Scoop LeptiGen, 1 Serving SesaThin = 37 calories
11:00 P.M. 1 Can Tuna w/ Lettuce if you like, or 150 calories worth of a Casein shake, 2 Fish Oil Caps = 170 calories
Immediately Before Bed: 1 Scoop LeptiGen, 1 Serving SesaThin = 37 calories
Total Calories: 1130
*Adjust calorie intake up or down based on bodyweight. If youíre on the larger side, add in an additional tuna feeding(s) rather than increasing how much you eat per sitting. If on the other hand your weight requires you to eat any less than 1 can of tuna per four hours, reduce the amount of tuna you eat per meal. I donít want you going longer than four hours without food (save for when sleeping).
*As you may have noticed, aside from trivial amounts in lettuce, this plan includes no dietary fiber. Due to the severe calorie deficit we want to create, adding in fiber-rich foods is not really ideal. So, I'd recommend Psyllium Husk to prevent you from...er...clogging up. You could also use Metamucil (they now have capsules, thank god), FiberCon, or similar; just try to throw some type of fiber supplement into the mix.
*Regardless of bodyweight, strive to keep Fish Oil, SesaThin and LeptiGen intake near-identical to whatís outlined above.
*Take your thermogenic of choice without food, 3-6 times per day (depending on what product/compounds you opt for). After assessing tolerance, itís probably advantageous to use a higher dose (not to exceed whatís recommended by the manufacture of course). If using Nicotine, dose as needed (generally 2 mgs of the gum every two hours to total 16mgs, or six Camels a day if thatís your fancy).
*If seven days into this program you are feeling flat as hell, you have a number of options: 1) Reduce SesaThin intake to 3 servings per day, or 2) Depending upon how lean you are, insert a reefed/carb-up on the seventh day, which would be 12 hours in duration, and include 500 grams of carbs or so. Really though, given the drugs in use and the short duration of this diet, you can probably skirt through the two weeks without needing a reefed (especially for those who are beginning the program at higher bodyfat percentages).
Iíve learned a few things during my numerous years of training. One of those things is that there are generally three types of liftersóthose that always like to follow other peopleís programs to the tee, those that never like to follow other peopleís programs, and those that fall somewhere in the middle. Personally, Iím the type who never likes to follow someone elseís training routines exactly. It bothers me. I need to customize, I need to do my own thang, I need to Just-ify it (okay that was bad, I admit).
So too did I once believe that there was that oft-alluded to magic bullet that would make me grow like a weed. Well, Iím here to tell you (as if you havenít heard it before) that it ainít so. At this point youíre probably wondering what Iím getting at. Essentially, methinks thereís not one ideal way to train that works for everyone, and I believe the same to hold true under these conditions as well.
My advice is to train like you always do, with a few exceptions and general recommendations. On a diet like this, even with a lot of androgens, donít expect to see too much by way of strength gains. Frankly, youíll be lucky if you retain your current strength levels during this period (but, theyíll quickly come back with the return to a semi-normal diet, so donít fret too much about this). As such, in order to minimize strength losses, I would strongly urge you to perform about two sets of 2-4 reps in one compound lift every time you workout a given bodypart.
So, every time you perform a chest workout, for instance, perform two maximal (or near-maximal) sets of a bench variation in the 2-4 rep range. Do the same with back, legs and shoulders. For arms, traps and calves, do this as well, however feel free to keep the weights in the 4-6 rep range.
After those two sets, train however youíd like. Higher reps (8-15) will deplete glycogen faster and will be beneficial the first few days. However glycogen depletion isnít really something you need to worry too much about after 3-5 days into the program given the dearth of carbs and the use of SesaThin. Iíd also advise you to keep volume on the moderate side, which Iím sure wonít be a problem when your energy levels crash 5-7 days into the diet. Cardio is not mandatory, however some light cardio work (emphasis on lightÖIíd personally avoid HIIT) would probably not hurt.
So, youíve survived the two weeks, youíre down 8-12 pounds of fat, and the question has become: how the hell do I return to normal eating without: 1) binging like mad and/or 2) regaining much of the fat I lost. This is a very good question. And while these fears cannot be 100% guarded against, there are a few tactics you can use to minimize the threat.
First, in terms of supplements/drugs, I recommend you begin use of topical 7-oxo if you havenít already (or high-dose oral 7-keto), to help bring your metabolism back in line. If you terminate your androgen cycle at the 14 day mark, begin an anti-estrogen immediately. Additionally, for those with access, low-dose (12.5-25mcgs) T3 may help prevent fat rebound. Although you should be careful with this, because T3 will probably cannibalize some muscle tissue in addition to preventing fat gain, given the unfavorable hormonal milieu.
Another option, which I think preferable from the standpoint of muscle preservation, is to continue the androgen(s) for a third or even fourth week (especially if you decide to use low-dose T3). You could then gradually raise calories to maintenance over the course of the next seven to fourteen days, and the continued use of androgens would significantly decrease the likelihood of serious fat rebound.
Additionally, if you begin post-cycle therapy (PCT) after week three or four, your metabolism has hopefully had some time to stabilize, allowing for an easier transition to PCT and again reducing the chance of fat gain. Whatever avenue you choose, keep using E/C or H.E.A.T Stack, along with LeptiGen and perhaps most importantly SesaThin. If you have Ab-Solved, Iíd throw it into the mix as well.
So far as diet during this time is concerned, though it may feel impossible, try to ease back into maintenance intake over the course of a few days (this process can be more gradual if you decide to stay on androgens for another week or two). If you lose it and eat like **** once or twice, itís understandableóbut try to bring calories up by 200-300 or so per day, until youíve returned to your maintenance levels.
Once there, Iíd hold at that intake or a little above for a couple of weeks as your body becomes once more accustomed to normal calorie levels and you go through post-cycle therapy (PCT). One other option would be to reefed for twelve hours on the 15th day (but watch it, this could get out of hand very quickly), after which you begin the process of raising calories described above. But if you have the willpower, Iíd skip the reefed.
Well, thatís the plan. If you can stick with it, it will certainly yield very impressive results that, provided the post-diet period is negotiated carefully, you can hold on to for quite some time.
12-08-2005, 03:15 AM
This is another PSMF. Only the details of this one make it a bit more extreme and complicated than what I described above.Originally Posted by DAdams91982
First, if you’re not comfortable or are unable to use a rather strong androgen, this program isn’t for you.
If you actually want to feel good on your vacation, I would highly recommend NOT running a short cycle before it.
The only supps I recommend for this are fish oil, multi, EC if needed, and nicotine to curb hunger. I feel that EC + nicotine is tried and true, and the results are consistent with each use. You know what to expect from them, you can function normally with them, and they work.
Clen on the other hand causes me incredible anxiety, and the shakes I get are embarrassing and make normal things difficult, (like counting change or shaking hands).
But everyone is different.
And Lyle has talked about it extensively on his board. At this level of dieting, you can only speed things up so much. The body has a limit as to how much fat can come out of adipose tissue in one 24 hour period. DNP is an exception to this becauses it changes the physiological rules. So without DNP you have a cap on how much you can lose, and if I remember correctly it's something like 1-1.5 pounds per day, (I might be off, it's been awhile since I read up on this stuff).
EC is good to boost energy on low calories.
Nicotine blunts hunger.
You really can't ask for much better than that, in my opinion.
Good luck with this, (PSMFs are no fun).
Edit: I forgot to add, Lyle partially addressed the issue of androgen use while on a PSMF as well. His thought was that it wouldn't make too much of a difference, and although I'm a bit more liberal with these things, I think he's right on this. This diet creates a very catabolic state, but the food selection (protein) + heavy lifting provides as much muscle protection as a heavy androgen cycle for a short period of time, (until the endocrine system corrects to compensate).
12-08-2005, 03:19 AM
Beowulf, maybe stay on the PGH-T, start an NHA stack and try the PSMF - hopefully you'll have enough circulating GH and the NHA will raise your test level to the point where you'll preserve lean mass.
12-08-2005, 04:39 AM
i always wondered if nolva/clomid could be used to affect fat deposits in a short cutting cycle, particularly around the lower stomach region. This should also boost test levels slightly which would also help retain muscle, coupled with a metabolism booster like eca or clen and a good spike of nolva/clomid at the beginning i dont see why this wouldn't help recomp the body a bit.
just my thoughts, good luck!
12-08-2005, 09:53 AM
Robboe already suggested how to use the MP: MP Question
I'll try to contact IBE about the clen, and I'm gonna make a decision about what diet/training to use. MY concern with the PSMF is that I can't afford to feel like **** at my job. It is too demanding. I might do something like Twin Peaks' carb cycle, but make it a bit tougher:
Somethign like that.
12-08-2005, 11:08 AM
The nicotine has the added benefit of boosting mood and is supposedly a very good nutrient partioner..takes some of the pain out of dieting. Too bad it's so thoroughly addictive.
Godd luck Beo.
12-08-2005, 11:57 AM
12-08-2005, 12:14 PM
nic gum works well, Beo. I'd give it a go. ****'s 'spensive, though. I ordered it from a place in New Zeland; stopsmokingtoday.com or something, and it's reasonable. Ships quick too, but for your purposes, better just go down to the Piggly Wiggly...
12-08-2005, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by bioman
So the nicotine stack works, been reading about in MD and have yet to hear real world feedback. You could also get it from CVS, or Wlagreens they have like walgreens brand nicotine gum if i am not mistaken. whats the dosage like ?
12-14-2005, 06:15 PM
stick with the 2mg gum. 4mg could cause you to start shaking, get really hot, feel sick etc as it's for hardcore smokers. I tried it once and it wasn't a pleasant experience at all
12-14-2005, 06:18 PM
12-14-2005, 07:18 PM
So I've decided my plan. I've worked too hard for this mass to risk torching it now, especially considering the fact that I will most likely get ill when I go away. Therefore, I've resolved to stick to the following plan:
I'm carb cycling, w/most carbs on leg day. On cardio only days I'm going as close to zero as possible.
Melting Point Beta: 9 Caps Daily. I'll cut it on Dec. 19th to let h2o subside
Omega Lean Support: 2x daily on my low carb days.
Fenotest: 4Caps daily
MRM Meta-Burn: run of the mill Thermo (just found it in my stash)
I'll weigh in at the gym today to see what's going on. Something is definitely going on, b/c I've been sweating like a bastard @ night.
I had a headache and nausea last night and this morning, but I was on 0 carbs, so I might have been hypo. That is odd, though, b/c I've done UD2,and carb cutting never affected me badly.
12-14-2005, 10:48 PM
Good luck beo, MP def works. Im guessing this is the first time you used it? I love it. Lost like 15 lbs in 4 weeks the first time i used it with no noticeable loss at all.
E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns
12-14-2005, 11:06 PM
clipse, do you think the MP is making me nauseous? I actually had to cut my workout short b/c I was going to vomit. Not really in the plan when cutting (how do you account for how many cals you lose )
12-14-2005, 11:36 PM
Now that i think of it, i do remember feeling somewhat nauseous on MP at certain times. I remember a couple of nights i was in my bed and my gf was with me, and i was super sweaty and feeling nauseous as all hell. I dont directly remember feeling nauseous while working out altho i did have a headache yesterday while doing my cardio. I would attribute it to the MP though as i have had the same side before.Originally Posted by Beowulf
Beo are the times you feel nauseous when you dont have carbs in ur system or has it happened when you've had and hadn't had carbs? I know for me it definately happened when i didn't have carbs.
E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns
Similar Forum Threads
- By Matthersby in forum Cycle InfoReplies: 8Last Post: 05-04-2014, 01:45 PM
- By swelling123 in forum AnabolicsReplies: 14Last Post: 04-27-2011, 04:23 PM
- By 01yz426 in forum Weight LossReplies: 7Last Post: 01-24-2008, 07:38 AM
- By Qaiphyx in forum Weight LossReplies: 6Last Post: 10-04-2007, 03:26 PM
- By afitalianlp in forum AnabolicsReplies: 22Last Post: 12-28-2004, 07:47 AM