Ketogenic Diets Suppress IGF-1

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Humble View Post
    Hey HIT4ME,

    I don’t want to address every point you are making. Some make sense to me and others don’t. But I do want to address one distinction that supports your argument that Keto causes insulin resistance. My original point was that for OBESE people a calorie restricted Keto diet resets the pancreas to pulse insulin at a rate that increases muscle receptor sensitivity. This webpage summarizes my understanding in plain language:

    https://www.marksdailyapple.com/does...in-resistance/

    “It appears that weight loss is the deciding factor, and since low carb diets tend to be more effective at inducing weight loss in subjects, they also tend to be better at reducing insulin resistance in insulin-resistant, overweight people. Once you’re lean and weight stable, though, very low carb diets (less than 10% of calories from carbs) can reduce insulin sensitivity. This is normal and totally necessary in the context of a very low carb diet. If we didn’t become insulin resistant while eating very low carb, our brain wouldn’t be able to get the glucose it needed to keep us alive.”

    Now I agree with all but the last sentence in that statement. My understanding is the brain �� only needs 20 grams of carbohydrates (glucose) daily to function properly. And metabolically the brain has first claim on blood glucose.

    That said, my weight loss experience as an obese person (60 lbs weight loss in 4 months on a very calorie restrictive Keto diet in 2016) is consistent with the above narrative.

    To make a long story short, I think you were arguing that insulin resistance can be INCREASED for the non-obese on a low-calorie Keto diet, then we can probably agree.

    Good stuff! Thanks, @HIT4ME!
    Yes - weight loss is a pretty big factor. And that is not exactly what I am saying, but you are on the right path. Some of the reason that some of the stuff I said does not make sense is just that it seems contradictory in a way at first. How do obese people have similar metabolic processes to starving people? It does not make sense at first - but that's how it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    Variation between one person to another. It’s no different than one person having a naturally higher aerobic capacity, another having a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle(and thus more speed), etc etc etc.

    I think we can all agree that no two human beings are created equal. This madness that is constantly shoved down everyone’s throat that we all respond to food the same way is just that- madness.

    I see allowances made all the time for different training philosophies being better for different people- hell, you and I both in a pretty small boat of people that subscribe to a pretty controversial approach to exercise.

    I simply can’t understand how we can accept the “different strokes for different folks” stuff in regards to training variety, but there’s hard and fast rules and no variation when it comes to diet. Follow the food pyramid, shovel carbs like there’s no tomorrow because our bodies all work the same- if it works for me it’ll work for you. We know better than that.
    We are all human beings. There are variations, but if a theory is valid, it will apply to all of us - if it does not work for someone; then there is a piece of information we are missing. If this were not true, we would not ever go to a doctor - because they would have no useful knowledge about how to treat you, because you would be different than everyone they have seen before.

    There are a lot of variables, and it can be hard to get your mind around - and we don't even know all the variables yet - but they are all the same variables.

    And if someone does not respond to carbs - that is a metabolic dysfunction and there is a reason for it. Some people may have genetic predispositions, but A LOT of people have diet induced dysfunction - and it isn't from carb consumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    Like Ive said before, keto only becomes a negative when you’re not actively burning fat anymore.

    And as far as the brain only needing 20g’s... At one point- and maybe they changed it- the USDA or AMA came out and said the human brain can’t function without 130g’s of dietary carbs per day. That’s a board that made this guideline. These are people with PHD’s in medicine, biology, etc. They know better than that. So why does this nonsense continue to get pushed? Because lobbyist money talks, and it has huge influence.
    @HIT4ME remember that when you start citing studies. Most of them have an agenda. I talk about the 1972 one with nitrates all the time. We reference the car Datone study, and how flawed it was around here a lot. These studies tend to be biased.
    The part in bold is just wrong. Actually, keto becomes a problem BECAUSE you are burning fat. That is where ALL of the health issues come about.

    I have not quoted any studies - but I can if you like. There are probably thousands of examples of scientists inducing mice and rats with diabetes - and even when induced with streptozotocin they typically utilize high fat diets. It is not like it is one study with an agenda - it is many, many studies with an agenda - the agenda being reliable induction of diabetes - and it is pretty well accepted that lipid overload is the best way to induce it. Not even sugar by itself is reliable.

    It is also confirmable with general observation - most diabetics have big issues controlling cholesterol levels.

    Also, keep in mind I am not talking about data studies, etc. - I am talking about observational studies on cell metabolism looking at how a cell functions. This is pretty basic biology. Fat people are REALLY great at burning fat. Starving people are too. It sounds contradictory, but it's not once you think on it a little. You burn what you have available, and fat is toxic.

    Think of it like this. If I am trying to frame a house and I send my crew to the job site and give them all drills - but then expect them to put the lumber together with nails (fat) instead of screws (carbs) - how much framing will get done?? It will take them all day to hammer in nails with the butt of a drill. Eventually, they are all gonna go get hammers and deal with what they are being given for a supply.

    This is how we work. We like to run on mostly carbs, with some fat. If we need 100 calories and there is 75 calories from carbs and 25 from fat, fine - we can be flexible and deal with it. If it is 60/40 or whatever our cells will swap over machinery to burn whatever we throw at them. This is the basis of metabolic flexibility.

    But what happens when you have elevated calorie levels all the time? Just because you have more doesn't mean you can burn more. You have the same energy demands. So you burn what you can and try to store the rest...only then you have stored fat that needs to be burned. It gets released and since the energy demand is still being out paced by your food intake, you now have fat in your blood and your body at some point will try to burn that instead of the carbs - it's a bigger risk in the blood than the carbs, which can form AGEs and be eliminated through the urine.

    So you swap all of your machinery in for fat burning machinery to burn more fat (this is well documented in obesity) - and you burn fat like crazy. But if you need 100 calories and you are getting 80+ of them from fat (including stored fat), then when you eat carbs, it's REALLY hard to burn them.

    So you have to store the carbs (as fat). And things get worse.

    So then you go on a diet, and your body lacks sufficient carbs/calories. So your body eats more fat - the fat that is stored - which requires the same fat burning machinery you upregulated during obesity. Great, you've been planning for this period of starvation for a LONG time. Only, now all you have to burn is fat, so you go all in 100% on the fat burning machinery and ditch all the carb burning machinery....which makes it worse in the regard that now carbs are now even less tolerable and you've become more sensitive to them.

    And this is actually part of the goal of ketosis - to mimick starvation - and it does so in a way similar to this analogy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Humble View Post
    Hmmm. If true, I would be brain dead (and maybe you think I am!) This web page says the 130g of carbs is fake news. But it is referenced...

    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...nic-diet-brain

    “In fact, a report by the US Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board states:

    "The lower limit of dietary carbohydrates compatible with life apparently is zero, provided that adequate amounts of protein and fat are consumed."

    Although a zero-carb diet isn't recommended because it eliminates many healthy foods, you can definitely eat much less than 130 grams per day and maintain good brain function.”

    Interesting stuff. Thanks!
    Yeah, keep in mind you're designed to survive. Your body has a lot of ways to fuel the brain. Ideally it would use a lot of glucose in most situations. But this is pretty much THE reason we have ketones - it's a good backup fuel for the brain. We can also convert fat to carbohydrates through gluconeogenesis - but this is fairly inefficient and difficult.
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams


  2. Did the link ever get posted? I’d love to actually read it.
    Psalms 62:1-62:2
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by tyga tyga View Post
    Did the link ever get posted? I’d love to actually read it.
    Havent found it again yet. Been a bit busy, but as soon as I find it I will post it
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?

  4. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6038311/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2898565/

    I cant find the original link but both of these look to have contributed to the info of the write up
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?

  5. The best Diet is Intermittent fasting. Keto is very effective for short term fat loss.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by BEAST73 View Post
    The best Diet is Intermittent fasting. Keto is very effective for short term fat loss.
    The “best diet” is one you can adhere to.
    Psalms 62:1-62:2

  7. Quote Originally Posted by tyga tyga View Post
    The “best diet” is one you can adhere to.
    This.

  8. Good stuff!

    The first study is statistically underpowered with only 24 human subjects.

    The second study is a review of the literature in 2010. The review includes animal models and human studies. It’s a great summary, but a little outdated.

    Thanks for sharing, @DemntedCowboy!

  9. Quote Originally Posted by tyga tyga View Post
    The “best diet” is one you can adhere to.
    Adhere, what about the obese eating? I’am pretty sure that’s easy to do.
  10. Ketogenic Diets Suppress IGF-1


    Quote Originally Posted by DemntedCowboy View Post
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6038311/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2898565/

    I cant find the original link but both of these look to have contributed to the info of the write up
    KD - Keto diet
    NKD - Non keto diet

    Neither study suggests suppression of IGF-1 during keto. Your first link takes a KD, NKD and a control group(CG) with all groups being in a "energy" surplus and look at decrease visceral, subq fat and lean tissue gain. The KD group had a significant reduction in visceral fat and total fat mass but they noted that the KD group didnt have an increase in total body mass (LBM/ muscle tissue) where as the CG and NKD did. So, within the 8 week study of strict adherence to a keto diet there wasn't in impact on muscle loss.

    Second link is how ketones effect cancer cells and epileptics lol
    Psalms 62:1-62:2

  11. Quote Originally Posted by BEAST73 View Post
    Adhere, what about the obese eating? I’am pretty sure that’s easy to do.
    What? “Obese” people aren’t adhering to a diet protocol, hence the term obese.
    Psalms 62:1-62:2
  12. Ketogenic Diets Suppress IGF-1


    Quote Originally Posted by tyga tyga View Post
    What? “Obese” people aren’t adhering to a diet protocol, hence the term obese.
    Yes they’re. It’s obese people here on AM, doing a diet protocol.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by BEAST73 View Post
    Yes they’re. It’s obese people here on AM, doing a diet protocol.
    Like who?

    Is their total kcal intake in a deficit? Or for the sake of arguing can you prove they’re in a total energy deficit? Nope.

    When you can hold them personally accountable then you have no idea what they’re actually doing outside this forum.
    Psalms 62:1-62:2

  14. Quote Originally Posted by tyga tyga View Post
    Like who?

    Is their total kcal intake in a deficit? Or for the sake of arguing can you prove they’re in a total energy deficit? Nope.

    When you can hold them personally accountable then you have no idea what they’re actually doing outside this forum.
    I agree,at 100! I just hate to see people with high expectations and follow the wrong Diet and Exercise program.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by ValiantThor08 View Post
    Good video
    High Intensity Training log, wedding prep:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/305228-wedding-preparation-next.html

  16. Quote Originally Posted by tyga tyga View Post
    KD - Keto diet
    NKD - Non keto diet

    Neither study suggests suppression of IGF-1 during keto. Your first link takes a KD, NKD and a control group(CG) with all groups being in a "energy" surplus and look at decrease visceral, subq fat and lean tissue gain. The KD group had a significant reduction in visceral fat and total fat mass but they noted that the KD group didnt have an increase in total body mass (LBM/ muscle tissue) where as the CG and NKD did. So, within the 8 week study of strict adherence to a keto diet there wasn't in impact on muscle loss.

    Second link is how ketones effect cancer cells and epileptics lol
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2898565/

    https://academic.oup.com/endo/articl...6/2676/2881789

    https://blog.humanos.me/lifestyle-mo...miting-growth/

    Here is a couple speaking on the subject more
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?

  17. Quote Originally Posted by tyga tyga View Post
    What? “Obese” people aren’t adhering to a diet protocol, hence the term obese.
    Technically Obese people are adhereing to a diet. Albiet a 10K a day diet, but it is still a diet.
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by DemntedCowboy View Post
    Technically Obese people are adhereing to a diet. Albiet a 10K a day diet, but it is still a diet.
    Seems like a gross generalization, don’t you think?
    High Intensity Training log, wedding prep:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/305228-wedding-preparation-next.html

  19. Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    Seems like a gross generalization, don’t you think?
    Kinda like your youtube video to debunk scholarly works?
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?

  20. Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    Seems like a gross generalization, don’t you think?
    People are doing crazy eating and thinking they are on a diet.

  21. It’s a lot of Guys here on AM getting big without the muscles.

  22. Awesome, I’ll read them when I get more time this afternoon!
    Psalms 62:1-62:2

  23. Quote Originally Posted by BEAST73 View Post
    It’s a lot of Guys here on AM getting big without the muscles.
    You do a lot of sneak dissin huh?
    Psalms 62:1-62:2

  24. Quote Originally Posted by tyga tyga View Post
    The “best diet” is one you can adhere to.
    100% True!!
    TEAM GET DIESEL
    GET DIESEL NUTRITION | SINCE 2002 | GETDIESEL.COM

    Use Code 'Rocket5' for 5% off at FeFiFo.com

  25. Quote Originally Posted by tyga tyga View Post
    You do a lot of sneak dissin huh?
    What about the people that take their pictures in the same place,lighting,and Mirrors. Manipulation.. lol!
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