Ketogenic Diets Suppress IGF-1

Page 2 of 6 First 1234 ... Last

  1. Quote Originally Posted by BEAST73 View Post
    I’am on a cut now and building muscle.
    you aint normal, lol....you da beast!!!
    ICONIC FORMULATIONS REPRESENTATIVE

    use code THEBIGT for 25% off


  2. I have low blood sugar-no keto for me..but gda's do seem to work really well for me-it takes some monitoring though.
    ICONIC FORMULATIONS REPRESENTATIVE

    use code THEBIGT for 25% off
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    .................
    Where you been?

    I have some crazy theories that nobody is ready for, you know that.
    Bulking. Sort of. Been trying out that new Cheetos-genic diet
    Twenty-Two Until None
    I Am My Brothers Keeper

  4. Quote Originally Posted by SFreed View Post
    Bulking. Sort of. Been trying out that new Cheetos-genic diet
    Tell me about this Cheetos-genic diet... lol
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?
  5. Ketogenic Diets Suppress IGF-1


    Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    I understand that...but it can actually increase insulin resistance. You have stayed strict keto for months...try going off.
    Huh? I did go off. No more insulin resistance.
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by SFreed View Post
    Bulking. Sort of. Been trying out that new Cheetos-genic diet
    Came back to add that when I woke up this morning my dyck was orange. Pretty sure that's an indication that I have reached a state of Cheetos-sis.
    Twenty-Two Until None
    I Am My Brothers Keeper

  7. Quote Originally Posted by SFreed View Post
    Bulking. Sort of. Been trying out that new Cheetos-genic diet
    I prefer the fritos-genic diet.

    probably same effect though!!!
    ICONIC FORMULATIONS REPRESENTATIVE

    use code THEBIGT for 25% off

  8. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    I understand that...but it can actually increase insulin resistance. You have stayed strict keto for months...try going off.
    But if you got obese because you’re insulin resistant, which is typical, I fail to see how keto can be blamed for insulin resistance if you already were. Further, the suggestion of “try coming off” makes little sense. The point of keto, for a lot of people, is their body just can’t handle carbs very well. Done properly, there is little reason to come off for the average person. We’re not talking about peak athletic performance, we’re talking about overall health and “need” in the true sense of the word in hunter gatherer terms.
    High Intensity Training log, wedding prep:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/305228-wedding-preparation-next.html

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Humble View Post
    Huh? I did go off. No more insulin resistance.
    Yeah, given the way it was worded it sounded like you have been on it for months. How did and are you testing insulin resistance?

    It is pretty well established that high fat diets cause insulin resistance. It is actually the usual method for inducing diabetes in animals to make them diabetic...not sugar or carbs. Sure, the most effective way is high fat AND high carbs.

    But what you are highlighting is the fact that the issue is much more complicated than most even realize. Insulin is just one factor and it gets way too much credit...although a ketogenic diet can reduce insulin spikes, and in the case where it leads to a caloric deficit it will reduce insulin levels, any caloric deficit will reduce insulin levels. And reduced insulin = impaired carb utilization through reduced glut4 availability.

    Of course, at first it may make things better, because high levels of insulin typically trigger increased glut4 translocation, and when this happens and fuel levels remain high anyway, insulin binding to glut4 will basically reduce all the available glut4 to nothing. In this case when you go keto (or any diet) and insulin drops...the glut4 frees up and carb tolerance may actually increase through that mechanism...but with longer periods of low insulin, glut4 receptors will be eliminated and insulin will become slightly less effective.


    Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    But if you got obese because you’re insulin resistant, which is typical, I fail to see how keto can be blamed for insulin resistance if you already were. Further, the suggestion of “try coming off” makes little sense. The point of keto, for a lot of people, is their body just can’t handle carbs very well. Done properly, there is little reason to come off for the average person. We’re not talking about peak athletic performance, we’re talking about overall health and “need” in the true sense of the word in hunter gatherer terms.
    The "your body can't handle carbs very well" part is the entire point.

    Typically one does not become obese because they are insulin resistant. They become insulin resistant and obese because they have high levels of fuel substrate in their blood that they cannot burn and even have a hard time storing.

    When you have a high level of calories available and cannot burn them, you cannot just leave them in your blood as the carbs and fat will create toxic results. So you have to store them. And when fat is abundant - as when you become obese - your body has to do something. And in response, it switches its energy production over to burn fat...an attempt to burn as much as possible. Obese people become very efficient at burning fat for energy. But since they get maybe (for example) 75% of their energy from fat and 25% from carbs, after that ...the carbs back up because they cannot be burned. They become good at burning fat and bad at burning carbs.

    So...the answer? Avoid carbs altogether, because the body cannot handle them.

    So you go on a keto diet and...now your body has no carb sources beyond gluconeogenesis... and now you are at 90-95% fat use for fuel. Great, I am a fat burning furnace.

    Except, you took the problem that got you in trouble in the first place - elevated fat and carb intolerance - and made it worse. Now, when you go off, you have a host of rebound concerns.

    Not to mention it can become very difficult to lose weight when you get twice the energy from every pound as if you were burning carbs.

    But, as you said, this can be a life long situation for some people...why go off?

    Well, you can take that approach if you prefer using band aids over healing cuts. Rather than fix the broken health issue, the keto diet just avoids that pathway altogether.

    Further, unless you are epileptic, the idea that anyone stays on a keto diet for life is a mistake. Research does indicate that keto diets fail long-term like any other diet and the idea of getting your energy from fat has been known to have health consequences for quite some time. Just to name one big issue - a heart that runs in fat will become unhealthy for a number of reasons. It just is not healthy long-term despite what they say in the internet and in newspapers. Then again, they also act like sodium is the sole reason for high blood pressure in the news. But if you are epileptic, the risk may be worth the benefit of going low carb long term.

    Still, I don't want to be too harsh on keto diets. It is a tool that can be effective. As you point out, if you cannot lose weight because you have trouble with carbs (which is usually caused by an abundance of fats)...then avoiding the carb problem altogether may be an effective short or mid-term tactic.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by SFreed View Post
    Bulking. Sort of. Been trying out that new Cheetos-genic diet
    Quote Originally Posted by SFreed View Post
    Came back to add that when I woke up this morning my dyck was orange. Pretty sure that's an indication that I have reached a state of Cheetos-sis.
    Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    I prefer the fritos-genic diet.

    probably same effect though!!!
    I have tried both of these diets. They are incredibly easy to stick to. I practically default to one of these two diets when I fall of other diets. Sometimes I do a cyclical fritos-cheetos diet.

    The orange dyck brings all the girls to the yard as well.
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  11. So what is the best strategy to cycling back off Leto without a rebound? Or to repair the broken Pathway that causes you to not use carbs well? With threads like this I can never tell if you guys are referring to strict 7 day a week keto as being back long term (which even Lyle McDonald said it was) or if you mean any keto diet including CKD which is supposed to combat that long term problem of insulin resistance. A similar strategy being Skip Loading.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Wagz86 View Post
    So what is the best strategy to cycling back off Leto without a rebound? Or to repair the broken Pathway that causes you to not use carbs well? With threads like this I can never tell if you guys are referring to strict 7 day a week keto as being back long term (which even Lyle McDonald said it was) or if you mean any keto diet including CKD which is supposed to combat that long term problem of insulin resistance. A similar strategy being Skip Loading.
    I think kiefer suggests 25g weekly, obviously lowering fat as you add CHO (This is in reference to CNS not strict Keto or “clinical Keto”)
    Psalms 62:1-62:2

  13. Nice. Thank you.

    So side question. Would taking a supplement that increases IGF-1 help combat the sides of long term CKD?

  14. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Yeah, given the way it was worded it sounded like you have been on it for months. How did and are you testing insulin resistance?

    It is pretty well established that high fat diets cause insulin resistance. It is actually the usual method for inducing diabetes in animals to make them diabetic...not sugar or carbs. Sure, the most effective way is high fat AND high carbs.

    But what you are highlighting is the fact that the issue is much more complicated than most even realize. Insulin is just one factor and it gets way too much credit...although a ketogenic diet can reduce insulin spikes, and in the case where it leads to a caloric deficit it will reduce insulin levels, any caloric deficit will reduce insulin levels. And reduced insulin = impaired carb utilization through reduced glut4 availability.

    Of course, at first it may make things better, because high levels of insulin typically trigger increased glut4 translocation, and when this happens and fuel levels remain high anyway, insulin binding to glut4 will basically reduce all the available glut4 to nothing. In this case when you go keto (or any diet) and insulin drops...the glut4 frees up and carb tolerance may actually increase through that mechanism...but with longer periods of low insulin, glut4 receptors will be eliminated and insulin will become slightly less effective.




    The "your body can't handle carbs very well" part is the entire point.

    Typically one does not become obese because they are insulin resistant. They become insulin resistant and obese because they have high levels of fuel substrate in their blood that they cannot burn and even have a hard time storing.

    When you have a high level of calories available and cannot burn them, you cannot just leave them in your blood as the carbs and fat will create toxic results. So you have to store them. And when fat is abundant - as when you become obese - your body has to do something. And in response, it switches its energy production over to burn fat...an attempt to burn as much as possible. Obese people become very efficient at burning fat for energy. But since they get maybe (for example) 75% of their energy from fat and 25% from carbs, after that ...the carbs back up because they cannot be burned. They become good at burning fat and bad at burning carbs.

    So...the answer? Avoid carbs altogether, because the body cannot handle them.

    So you go on a keto diet and...now your body has no carb sources beyond gluconeogenesis... and now you are at 90-95% fat use for fuel. Great, I am a fat burning furnace.

    Except, you took the problem that got you in trouble in the first place - elevated fat and carb intolerance - and made it worse. Now, when you go off, you have a host of rebound concerns.

    Not to mention it can become very difficult to lose weight when you get twice the energy from every pound as if you were burning carbs.

    But, as you said, this can be a life long situation for some people...why go off?

    Well, you can take that approach if you prefer using band aids over healing cuts. Rather than fix the broken health issue, the keto diet just avoids that pathway altogether.

    Further, unless you are epileptic, the idea that anyone stays on a keto diet for life is a mistake. Research does indicate that keto diets fail long-term like any other diet and the idea of getting your energy from fat has been known to have health consequences for quite some time. Just to name one big issue - a heart that runs in fat will become unhealthy for a number of reasons. It just is not healthy long-term despite what they say in the internet and in newspapers. Then again, they also act like sodium is the sole reason for high blood pressure in the news. But if you are epileptic, the risk may be worth the benefit of going low carb long term.

    Still, I don't want to be too harsh on keto diets. It is a tool that can be effective. As you point out, if you cannot lose weight because you have trouble with carbs (which is usually caused by an abundance of fats)...then avoiding the carb problem altogether may be an effective short or mid-term tactic.
    “The art and science of low carbohydrate living” debunks most of what you just said. The biggest misconception about low carb diets is that it’s new. Been around a long time, before anyone cared about naming it and certainly before it was developed for epileptics.

    And again, you’re ignoring that varying levels of insulin resistance can cause and lead to obesity. You operate entirely off of the idea that the onset of insulin resistance doesn’t happen until you’re obesity. That is utterly false. Not handling carbs very well is what got the, fat. It didn’t happen exclusively once they got fat.
    High Intensity Training log, wedding prep:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/305228-wedding-preparation-next.html

  15. Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    “The art and science of low carbohydrate living” debunks most of what you just said. The biggest misconception about low carb diets is that it’s new. Been around a long time, before anyone cared about naming it and certainly before it was developed for epileptics.

    And again, you’re ignoring that varying levels of insulin resistance can cause and lead to obesity. You operate entirely off of the idea that the onset of insulin resistance doesn’t happen until you’re obesity. That is utterly false. Not handling carbs very well is what got the, fat. It didn’t happen exclusively once they got fat.
    First off...the idea that a low carb diet isn't new is pretty humorous. Of course it isn't new....if it was we would not have evolutionary chemistry to handle it.

    Second off...I am not ignoring anything. I am just following the actual science - stuff that has been observed and utilized in actual studies for decades with reliability.

    I never said insulin resistance does not occur until you are obese. What I said was that insulin resistance is caused by an excess of energy substrate.

    The idea that that book "debunks" most of what I said above, which again is based on scientific research and a basic understanding of the kreb's cycle - makes me question the rigor of the research behind the book.

    As I said above - just about any review of any diabetic study out there where the experiment requires inducing diabetes in an animal starts off with giving the animals a high fat diet. It is THE reliable way to induce insulin resistance.

    But also, keep in mind I have said that insulin itself is only part of the puzzle and not the entire story. But it is over played because the guys writing low carb books do not understand much beyond basic insulin function.

    But, just in case I can learn something - let's humor what you say....

    So what exactly causes insulin resistance?
    "I've never seen anyone change his mind because of the power of a superior argument or the acquisition of new facts. But I've seen plenty of people change behavior to avoid being mocked." -Scott Adams

  16. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Hey HIT4ME,

    I don’t want to address every point you are making. Some make sense to me and others don’t. But I do want to address one distinction that supports your argument that Keto causes insulin resistance. My original point was that for OBESE people a calorie restricted Keto diet resets the pancreas to pulse insulin at a rate that increases muscle receptor sensitivity. This webpage summarizes my understanding in plain language:

    https://www.marksdailyapple.com/does...in-resistance/

    “It appears that weight loss is the deciding factor, and since low carb diets tend to be more effective at inducing weight loss in subjects, they also tend to be better at reducing insulin resistance in insulin-resistant, overweight people. Once you’re lean and weight stable, though, very low carb diets (less than 10% of calories from carbs) can reduce insulin sensitivity. This is normal and totally necessary in the context of a very low carb diet. If we didn’t become insulin resistant while eating very low carb, our brain wouldn’t be able to get the glucose it needed to keep us alive.”

    Now I agree with all but the last sentence in that statement. My understanding is the brain 🧠 only needs 20 grams of carbohydrates (glucose) daily to function properly. And metabolically the brain has first claim on blood glucose.

    That said, my weight loss experience as an obese person (60 lbs weight loss in 4 months on a very calorie restrictive Keto diet in 2016) is consistent with the above narrative.

    To make a long story short, I think you were arguing that insulin resistance can be INCREASED for the non-obese on a low-calorie Keto diet, then we can probably agree.

    Good stuff! Thanks, @HIT4ME!

  17. Quote Originally Posted by DemntedCowboy View Post
    True but you want to maintain muscle and the suppression of IGF is not initiative for that either.
    I highly doubt altering igf 1 levels within in normal range will make any difference. Even injecting igf 1 in high doses doesn't build muscle that well. If it did everybody would use. I've tried it myself more then once and not real impressed.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Jstrong20 View Post
    I highly doubt altering igf 1 levels within in normal range will make any difference. Even injecting igf 1 in high doses doesn't build muscle that well. If it did everybody would use. I've tried it myself more then once and not real impressed.
    But low IGF has shown in studys that I posted to lower muscle mass
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?

  19. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post

    So what exactly causes insulin resistance?
    Variation between one person to another. It’s no different than one person having a naturally higher aerobic capacity, another having a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle(and thus more speed), etc etc etc.

    I think we can all agree that no two human beings are created equal. This madness that is constantly shoved down everyone’s throat that we all respond to food the same way is just that- madness.

    I see allowances made all the time for different training philosophies being better for different people- hell, you and I both in a pretty small boat of people that subscribe to a pretty controversial approach to exercise.

    I simply can’t understand how we can accept the “different strokes for different folks” stuff in regards to training variety, but there’s hard and fast rules and no variation when it comes to diet. Follow the food pyramid, shovel carbs like there’s no tomorrow because our bodies all work the same- if it works for me it’ll work for you. We know better than that.
    High Intensity Training log, wedding prep:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/305228-wedding-preparation-next.html

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Humble View Post
    Hey HIT4ME,

    I don’t want to address every point you are making. Some make sense to me and others don’t. But I do want to address one distinction that supports your argument that Keto causes insulin resistance. My original point was that for OBESE people a calorie restricted Keto diet resets the pancreas to pulse insulin at a rate that increases muscle receptor sensitivity. This webpage summarizes my understanding in plain language:

    https://www.marksdailyapple.com/does...in-resistance/

    “It appears that weight loss is the deciding factor, and since low carb diets tend to be more effective at inducing weight loss in subjects, they also tend to be better at reducing insulin resistance in insulin-resistant, overweight people. Once you’re lean and weight stable, though, very low carb diets (less than 10% of calories from carbs) can reduce insulin sensitivity. This is normal and totally necessary in the context of a very low carb diet. If we didn’t become insulin resistant while eating very low carb, our brain wouldn’t be able to get the glucose it needed to keep us alive.”

    Now I agree with all but the last sentence in that statement. My understanding is the brain �� only needs 20 grams of carbohydrates (glucose) daily to function properly. And metabolically the brain has first claim on blood glucose.

    That said, my weight loss experience as an obese person (60 lbs weight loss in 4 months on a very calorie restrictive Keto diet in 2016) is consistent with the above narrative.

    To make a long story short, I think you were arguing that insulin resistance can be INCREASED for the non-obese on a low-calorie Keto diet, then we can probably agree.

    Good stuff! Thanks, @HIT4ME!
    Like Ive said before, keto only becomes a negative when you’re not actively burning fat anymore.

    And as far as the brain only needing 20g’s... At one point- and maybe they changed it- the USDA or AMA came out and said the human brain can’t function without 130g’s of dietary carbs per day. That’s a board that made this guideline. These are people with PHD’s in medicine, biology, etc. They know better than that. So why does this nonsense continue to get pushed? Because lobbyist money talks, and it has huge influence.
    @HIT4ME remember that when you start citing studies. Most of them have an agenda. I talk about the 1972 one with nitrates all the time. We reference the cardarine study, and how flawed it was around here a lot. These studies tend to be biased.
    High Intensity Training log, wedding prep:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/305228-wedding-preparation-next.html

  21. Quote Originally Posted by jrock645 View Post
    Like Ive said before, keto only becomes a negative when you’re not actively burning fat anymore.

    And as far as the brain only needing 20g’s... At one point- and maybe they changed it- the USDA or AMA came out and said the human brain can’t function without 130g’s of dietary carbs per day.
    Hmmm. If true, I would be brain dead (and maybe you think I am!) This web page says the 130g of carbs is fake news. But it is referenced...

    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...nic-diet-brain

    “In fact, a report by the US Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board states:

    "The lower limit of dietary carbohydrates compatible with life apparently is zero, provided that adequate amounts of protein and fat are consumed."

    Although a zero-carb diet isn't recommended because it eliminates many healthy foods, you can definitely eat much less than 130 grams per day and maintain good brain function.”

    Interesting stuff. Thanks!

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Humble View Post
    Hmmm. If true, I would be brain dead (and maybe you think I am!) This web page says the 130g of carbs is fake news. But it is referenced...

    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...nic-diet-brain

    “In fact, a report by the US Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board states:

    "The lower limit of dietary carbohydrates compatible with life apparently is zero, provided that adequate amounts of protein and fat are consumed."

    Although a zero-carb diet isn't recommended because it eliminates many healthy foods, you can definitely eat much less than 130 grams per day and maintain good brain function.”

    Interesting stuff. Thanks!
    You cant trust American Study's have you seen the American Public
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?

  23. He’s not wrong lol

  24. Getting to deep for me.
    TEAM GET DIESEL
    GET DIESEL NUTRITION | SINCE 2002 | GETDIESEL.COM

    Use Code 'Rocket5' for 5% off at FeFiFo.com
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 09-15-2012, 12:52 PM
  2. Ketogenic Diets and IGF / MGF
    By Whacked in forum IGF-1/GH
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-13-2006, 10:27 AM
  3. Cyclical Ketogenic Diet How to Guideline please
    By OmarJackson in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-15-2005, 12:07 AM
  4. Ketogenic diet converts
    By AldrichAStern in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 06-28-2005, 03:48 PM
  5. Training on the Cyclical Ketogenic Diet
    By YellowJacket in forum Training Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-07-2003, 06:37 PM
Log in
Log in