Help with ketogenic diet.

[JoeStethics]

Hey guys, hope ur all doing well, i started a thread a couple of days ago about the ketogenic diet but on a different forum since i was asking about different details but i really need some help and if any keto experts would care to chime in i would be extremely grateful.
My stats
6'1
202 lbs
Not very accurate on body fat especially since ive been dieting from 222 lbs but i would say 14-16% to be safe and just to give u an idea.
My goal is to get to 10% body fat.
Now i wanted to start the keto diet as i am seeing it being brought up much more and zyzz back in the day did use this diet(incoming hate), now i know zyzz is hated on most of the time but lets just talk about the ketogenic diet, one important thing u should know is that my body holds a good amount of water, like i cant take creatine or my face will blow up(past experience), so i wanted some experienced users or possibly experts on this matter to tell me what they think about the ketogenic diet and mainly issues like strength loss as i have been experiencing this a bit but mostly endurance loss is my biggest issue while cutting( my deficit has been between 500-750 max during this cut), how well can i train without carbs as i do lift heavy especially on compounds, since im a bodybuilder ive also been told i cant follow the traditional 75% fat as protein would be too low and i am looking to increase my deficit to around 1000 below maintenance later on(forget muscle loss as i will lets just say be using a bit of aid later on) so that being said how will i fix my protein and fat ratio?

Thanks in advance to all. If needed i can link the diet i have been told by a fellow coach to do which is around 50% protein 45% carbs 5% fat.

 

[Swindler]

Following

 

[cobri66]

Me too

 

[runtyemonster]

There is a difference between a keto diet and a high fat, low carb diet(hflc). Keto is around 75% fat, 25% protein and 5% carbs. Keto WILL make you drop water, when I start going into ketosis I have to piss constantly. Endurance is only an issue, initially, once your fat adapted(~2-3wks) you'll have energy to spare, or you should at least. Keto is also muscle sparing, so you don't have to worry too much about losing mass as long as your calories are there. Now calories is the hard part. Since you will be eating more fat, you will stay full longer, but since you will be cutting anyways, its a non-issue. Imho, people that lose a bunch of strength on keto must be doing something different then me, I trained keto and IF right into my last powerlifting meet and didn't notice any strength loss. But again, all anecdotal. That's my 2¢

 

[DieselNY]

Yeah don't bother with the medical/therapeutic ketosis diet of 75%fat, 25% protein, 5% carbs unless you are a an epileptic child or 300lb female. I have been keto since the 1990s and my %'s look more like 47.5% protein, 47.5% fat, 5% carbs (with regards to calories of each macro).

Also it is not the carbs you are lacking for your workouts, it is the electrolytes. Have a warm cup of boullion with around 2,000mg sodium pre-workout and watch the magic. The general consensus is a keto dieter will need around 7,000mg/day of sodium. I combine keto + IF and train fasted in the AM and do not eat for many hours after, I have zero issues in the gym as long as my electrolytes are in check. I use boullion from time to time as well as an all-in-one electrolyte product, I pop a few caps here and there.

 

[cobri66]

Yeah don't bother with the medical/therapeutic ketosis diet of 75%fat, 25% protein, 5% carbs unless you are a an epileptic child or 300lb female. I have been keto since the 1990s and my %'s look more like 47.5% protein, 47.5% fat, 5% carbs (with regards to calories of each macro).

Also it is not the carbs you are lacking for your workouts, it is the electrolytes. Have a warm cup of boullion with around 2,000mg sodium pre-workout and watch the magic. The general consensus is a keto dieter will need around 7,000mg/day of sodium. I combine keto + IF and train fasted in the AM and do not eat for many hours after, I have zero issues in the gym as long as my electrolytes are in check. I use boullion from time to time as well as an all-in-one electrolyte product, I pop a few caps here and there.

I'm doing keto with IF..just started about a month ago...will have to try the bouillon thing

 

[JoeStethics]

Yeah don't bother with the medical/therapeutic ketosis diet of 75%fat, 25% protein, 5% carbs unless you are a an epileptic child or 300lb female. I have been keto since the 1990s and my %'s look more like 47.5% protein, 47.5% fat, 5% carbs (with regards to calories of each macro).

Also it is not the carbs you are lacking for your workouts, it is the electrolytes. Have a warm cup of boullion with around 2,000mg sodium pre-workout and watch the magic. The general consensus is a keto dieter will need around 7,000mg/day of sodium. I combine keto + IF and train fasted in the AM and do not eat for many hours after, I have zero issues in the gym as long as my electrolytes are in check. I use boullion from time to time as well as an all-in-one electrolyte product, I pop a few caps here and there.

Thank you for such a helpful answer man, and about the sodium wouldnt this be bad for water weight and water retention?
I will use sodium pre workout and i am a strong believer in its benefits pre workout but what about the rest of the day with high sodium is what i meant with my question above.
And if u dont mind critiquing my diet
Meal 1
1 tbsp coconut oil
125 grams of bacon strips(beef bacon)
Possibly water with salt as the bouillon cant fit my macros for now.

Meal 2
Post workout 35g iso whey shake.
1 cup of broccoli

Meal 3
6 oz chicken breast
1 oz almonds

Meal 4
5 oz salmon
1 tbsp olive oil

Meal 5
1 cup of cottage cheese
1.5 tbsp peanut butter

Total macros are:
161g protien
107g fat
28g carbs
thats 56% fat 37% protein and 7% carbs.
1732 calories total.

 

[Wimsicle]

Keto is a very diuretic diet, you won't retain water like you normally do with a Standard American diet. You will need to replenish especially working out. 5-7g a day

 

[DieselNY]

Thank you for such a helpful answer man, and about the sodium wouldnt this be bad for water weight and water retention?
I will use sodium pre workout and i am a strong believer in its benefits pre workout but what about the rest of the day with high sodium is what i meant with my question above.
And if u dont mind critiquing my diet
Meal 1
1 tbsp coconut oil
125 grams of bacon strips(beef bacon)
Possibly water with salt as the bouillon cant fit my macros for now.

Meal 2
Post workout 35g iso whey shake.
1 cup of broccoli

Meal 3
6 oz chicken breast
1 oz almonds

Meal 4
5 oz salmon
1 tbsp olive oil

Meal 5
1 cup of cottage cheese
1.5 tbsp peanut butter

Total macros are:
161g protien
107g fat
28g carbs
thats 56% fat 37% protein and 7% carbs.
1732 calories total.

Looks good.

 

[DieselNY]

Keto is a very diuretic diet, you won't retain water like you normally do with a Standard American diet. You will need to replenish especially working out. 5-7g a day

What he said ^

 

[boulon]

Don t forget to cut sodium in the weekend

 

[cheftepesh1]

Higher sodium is needed. I've even used keto salts preworkout to aid in increasing the energy levels I have. I've used both ketoinduce and muscle research keto salts and both worked great. I have issues with sodium and edema and these did not effects it where normal sodium intake can.

 

[cobri66]

Higher sodium is needed. I've even used keto salts preworkout to aid in increasing the energy levels I have. I've used both ketoinduce and muscle research keto salts and both worked great. I have issues with sodium and edema and these did not effects it where normal sodium intake can.

That's my next step is getting ketosalts preworkout

 

[Wimsicle]

That's my next step is getting ketosalts preworkout

In the mean time try protein, mct, and 2g salt

 

[DieselNY]

That's my next step is getting ketosalts preworkout

It's really not needed especially if you are already in ketosis.

 

[tyga tyga]

It's really not needed especially if you are already in ketosis.

I think you're misunderstanding what the salts are for... energy, mental clarity and reduced fatigue.

 

[DieselNY]

I think you're misunderstanding what the salts are for... energy.

Oh trust me I know.

Companies send me to sample all the time (even 1 company has esters which were interesting)

You won't need more bhb once you are fully keto. You just need sodium.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Do any of you guys monitor your blood ketones or blood sugar?

 

[DieselNY]

Do any of you guys monitor your blood ketones or blood sugar?

Only if I am bored or coming off a big carb up like I did on Tuesday. I had a lot of carbs and then showed good ketone readings by the morning. I am so adapted that I can eat 600gms of carbs on a carb day and be back showing adequate blood ketones late night or when I wake up the next morning. Most people need 2-3 days post carb up for that.

I don't care about BG readings but it reads that too. Reason I do not care is the longer you go keto/long carb the more you adapt and then develop physiological insulin resistance which shows high BG reading but its totally fine/normal.

 

[JoeStethics]

DieselNY dude i think i went into ketosis either yesterday or today, when i woke up today my waist was tight as ****, my friends thought i was starving myself.
Cant wait to see what 8-10 more weeks of this has to offer, and yeh the sodium thing works like magic pre workout.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Only if I am bored or coming off a big carb up like I did on Tuesday. I had a lot of carbs and then showed good ketone readings by the morning. I am so adapted that I can eat 600gms of carbs on a carb day and be back showing adequate blood ketones late night or when I wake up the next morning. Most people need 2-3 days post carb up for that.

I don't care about BG readings but it reads that too. Reason I do not care is the longer you go keto/long carb the more you adapt and then develop physiological insulin resistance which shows high BG reading but its totally fine/normal.

Regarding blood glucose, mine is around ~120 or so every morning and I've been keto about 6 or 7 weeks. Later in the day it might be 85 before dinner or something. My blood ketones read at least 1.0 mmol though (highest was 1.9). Would you say this is normal or fine? I eat 60-90 grams of protein a day, but I'm also not working out at the moment.

 

[DieselNY]

Protein is way too low and those high ketone readings are not needed (1.9 etc). Your BG readings look right for someone who has been low carbing for a while. Look up Dawn Phenomenon, and Physiological Insulin Resistance. I have gone up to 500gms a day of protein (normal day is 200-250gms) and NEVER had an issue with ketosis...that is a butter chugger keto zealot myth about too much protein and gng ...if that is indeed the reason for your low protein intake.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Protein is way too low and those high ketone readings are not needed (1.9 etc). Your BG readings look right for someone who has been low carbing for a while. Look up Dawn Phenomenon, and Physiological Insulin Resistance. I have gone up to 500gms a day of protein (normal day is 200-250gms) and NEVER had an issue with ketosis...that is a butter chugger keto zealot myth about too much protein and gng ...if that is indeed the reason for your low protein intake.

Yeah, that's the reason for the low protein intake. So you don't think gng is for real?

 

[DieselNY]

Yeah, that's the reason for the low protein intake. So you don't think gng is for real?

it is very real and happens all the time but its a demand driven process not supply driven and you can't change that fact by eating lots of protein.

 

[Wimsicle]

Yep, regardless of how much protein you consume, it does not 'speed up gng'. It happens at the same rate regardless of protein consumption. When my lbm was 155, I was consuming 185g protein and never fell out of ketosis.

 

[Smont]

I prefer it this way, 1.5gm protein per lb of bodyweight, carbs at 30gm or less and the reminder of my maintenance calories from fat. Works extremely well for me when recomp is my goal

 

[JoeStethics]

Yo guys, i just had my first carb up since going on keto for 2 weeks and i really am suffering from this flat look in my muscles and pumps are weak as **** sometimes. Do u think i would be better off just going on 50/30/20 protein/carbs/fat ratio for keeping muscle fullness but also dosing my carbs at the exact amount i need just for recovery,glycogen and energy say 130-150g a day?
At the same deficit as on keto it wouldnt make much of a difference except a bit of water weight right?

FYI im also using some help if u know what i mean so i could use the carbs(nutrient partitioning is one of the stuff my help is really good at), just thought this would be extremely useful for u guys to know.

 

[Smont]

Yo guys, i just had my first carb up since going on keto for 2 weeks and i really am suffering from this flat look in my muscles and pumps are weak as **** sometimes. Do u think i would be better off just going on 50/30/20 protein/carbs/fat ratio for keeping muscle fullness but also dosing my carbs at the exact amount i need just for recovery,glycogen and energy say 130-150g a day?
At the same deficit as on keto it wouldnt make much of a difference except a bit of water weight right?

FYI im also using some help if u know what i mean so i could use the carbs(nutrient partitioning is one of the stuff my help is really good at), just thought this would be extremely useful for u guys to know.

Depends on your goals. How much bf do u have. If bf is on the higher side it's hard to get a good pump. U can try carb cycling, or keto style with a refeed 1x per week. Or just stay balanced with lower calories. It's something you gotta figure out how it works best for you

 

[Smont]

By help do you mean just juice or insulin too.

 

[JoeStethics]

By help do you mean just juice or insulin too.

Just juice.

 

[JoeStethics]

Depends on your goals. How much bf do u have. If bf is on the higher side it's hard to get a good pump. U can try carb cycling, or keto style with a refeed 1x per week. Or just stay balanced with lower calories. It's something you gotta figure out how it works best for you

The thing is my waist did begin to get tighter and my face too, but my arms compared to before have deflated as if, the glycogen depletion made me look flat as hell especially in my arms, so i thought since i have already dropped around 2 kg of water and the rest would be fat, i realized there isnt that much of a difference if i were to continue on a normal caloric deficit and gained a bit of that water back, because the flat look and especially my arms is killing me.

Did u understand what i mean?

Also i wouldnt complain about normal fat loss or weight loss while cutting and getting kinda smaller over time, but the glycogen depletion is what was too much for me.
Might make a new thread about my new diet, ill post the link later on and tell me what u think.

 

[JoeStethics]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/weight-loss/295119-new-cutting-diet.html#post5804628

All advice and help is appreciated^

 

[DieselNY]

Yo guys, i just had my first carb up since going on keto for 2 weeks and i really am suffering from this flat look in my muscles and pumps are weak as **** sometimes. Do u think i would be better off just going on 50/30/20 protein/carbs/fat ratio for keeping muscle fullness but also dosing my carbs at the exact amount i need just for recovery,glycogen and energy say 130-150g a day?
At the same deficit as on keto it wouldnt make much of a difference except a bit of water weight right?

FYI im also using some help if u know what i mean so i could use the carbs(nutrient partitioning is one of the stuff my help is really good at), just thought this would be extremely useful for u guys to know.

It's not the carbs, it is the sodium and electrolytes in general that you are lacking.

 

[runtyemonster]

It's not the carbs, it is the sodium and electrolytes in general that you are lacking.

This. High fat, low carb is diuretic. Gotta up those electrolytes.

 

[JoeStethics]

It's not the carbs, it is the sodium and electrolytes in general that you are lacking.

U really think i can keep my muscle fullness(not all just the glycogen pump with carbs level or maybe less) if i up my sodium and supplement with magnesium and potassium?

Could give it another try because my workouts didnt really suffer that much, but what about the diet i posted above, u think i can get same results as it is a big deficit too?

 

[Wimsicle]

U really think i can keep my muscle fullness(not all just the glycogen pump with carbs level or maybe less) if i up my sodium and supplement with magnesium and potassium?

Could give it another try because my workouts didnt really suffer that much, but what about the diet i posted above, u think i can get same results as it is a big deficit too?

You shouldn't be doing keto without really monitoring your electrolyte intake. It can be crucial not only to your health but also the success on the diet!

 

[JoeStethics]

You shouldn't be doing keto without really monitoring your electrolyte intake. It can be crucial not only to your health but also the success on the diet!

If i do monitor my electrolyte intake will it help with muscle flatness?

Thats what i wanna know i had sodium kinda in check but not magnesium and potassium.

 

[Wimsicle]

If i do monitor my electrolyte intake will it help with muscle flatness?

Thats what i wanna know i had sodium kinda in check but not magnesium and potassium.

Sodium will help most but all should be kept in check.

5-7g sodium, 1g potassium, 400mg mag a day

Pre load 2g sodium with your pre workout and see how that does for muscle fullness

 

[cobri66]

New to ketosis..learning a lot with this thread..

 

[JoeStethics]

Guys i think im just gonna leave the keto lifestyle behind, i just hate the flatness and lack of pump on it. As a diet it was very easy and comfortable as i stayed full the whole time(never hungry i would look at the time and realize i need to eat more) and its results in terms of fat and water loss were amazing but as i said the lack of muscle fullness and lack of pump was killing it for me

 

[Wimsicle]

Guys i think im just gonna leave the keto lifestyle behind, i just hate the flatness and lack of pump on it. As a diet it was very easy and comfortable as i stayed full the whole time(never hungry i would look at the time and realize i need to eat more) and its results in terms of fat and water loss were amazing but as i said the lack of muscle fullness and lack of pump was killing it for me

You could try TKD. Add 10-15g dextrose to your pre workout.

 

[JoeStethics]

You could try TKD. Add 10-15g dextrose to your pre workout.

Im currently carb cycling eating carbs on workout days and on rest days i try to stay around a little less than 50-60g of carbs but with high fat, im doing fasted cardio on most rest days thats why i didnt completely eliminate the carbs, but no starchy carbs on rest day though, and even on workout days my carb intake never goes over 150g

 

[GreenMachineX]

Wimsicle and DieselNY, I heard Dr. Dominic D'Agostino say in a podcast that muscle glycogen actually comes back eventually while on a ketogenic diet. Have you seen this to be true and how long did that take?

 

[DieselNY]

I NEVER have issues with pumps etc even when not upping my sodium. But flatness and lack of pump is nothing more than cosmetic and will not stop you from hitting your goals. It is part of the process, you may just have to embrace the suck until you get to the low bodyfat you want then start upping carbs.

Also many guys do a TKD and like it, they actually combine 10-15gms Dexrtrose+MCT's and various pump products - AAKG, Citruline, BetaAlanine, etc etc.
JoeStethics it looks to me you really arent keto long enough or not fat adapted if you keep dabbling with 50-60gms of carbs and then you never go over 150gms on workout days? Hate to tell you that is just a low/moderate carb diet, that is not keto at all.

 

[JoeStethics]

I NEVER have issues with pumps etc even when not upping my sodium. But flatness and lack of pump is nothing more than cosmetic and will not stop you from hitting your goals. It is part of the process, you may just have to embrace the suck until you get to the low bodyfat you want then start upping carbs.

Also many guys do a TKD and like it, they actually combine 10-15gms Dexrtrose+MCT's and various pump products - AAKG, Citruline, BetaAlanine, etc etc.
JoeStethics it looks to me you really arent keto long enough or not fat adapted if you keep dabbling with 50-60gms of carbs and then you never go over 150gms on workout days? Hate to tell you that is just a low/moderate carb diet, that is not keto at all.

Yeah thats not keto, i told u guys im carb cycling, back on keto i was very strict with carbs definitely less than 30g a day. The 150g on workout days and 50-60g rest is what im doing now. I was thinking because i read that keto does not have any metabolic advantage over any other diet at the same deficit(more water loss tho) and i started to think if it is worth it too look flat and depleted while dieting to he desired body fat or just staying full while getting down even if its takes a bit longer(which shouldnt since there shouldnt be a metabolic advantage) rigth?

 

[DieselNY]

Yeah thats not keto, i told u guys im carb cycling, back on keto i was very strict with carbs definitely less than 30g a day. The 150g on workout days and 50-60g rest is what im doing now. I was thinking because i read that keto does not have any metabolic advantage over any other diet at the same deficit(more water loss tho) and i started to think if it is worth it too look flat and depleted while dieting to he desired body fat or just staying full while getting down even if its takes a bit longer(which shouldnt since there shouldnt be a metabolic advantage) rigth?

I've been doing keto for decades because I like the way it makes me feel, is very easy to adhere too which is basically the advantage you get. You are right there's no metabolic advantage but the advantage seems to be adherence in all the studies they have done on comparing different diets. I also like constant energy and no crashing it's just a personal preference. Of course my wild carb ups are fun too.

 

[JoeStethics]

I've been doing keto for decades because I like the way it makes me feel, is very easy to adhere too which is basically the advantage you get. You are right there's no metabolic advantage but the advantage seems to be adherence in all the studies they have done on comparing different diets. I also like constant energy and no crashing it's just a personal preference. Of course my wild carb ups are fun too.

Yeah, i swear if it werent for bodybuilding i would stay on keto the whole time, i have a friend of mine who was trying to lose weight but he just didnt have strong will power, i recommended keto for him and he has lost 3kg on his first week and says he is never going back(not a lifter). The only thing was the flat and depleted muscles, my workouts werent that bad actually and it was much easier to adhere to and was almost always full(dont know why people call this a hard diet).