Keto Refeed Advice

[ECWHY]

Been on strict keto since my last refeed/cheat 3 weeks ago.

Was planning to do a refeed at maintenance or below this saturday.

Current Macros: 1800-2100 cals depending on activity, 12-16g of carbs, 105-115 g of protein, 130-160g of fat


Was going to refeed on Saturday because that is my Shoulders/misc day and Sunday is going to be Legs.

I might try to move into a TKD style diet to finish out my cut to aid in lifting recovery. Was planning to only use carbs (dextrose) PWO and just protein after.


Not exactly sure on the macro split though, 50 carbs/40 protein/10 fat? Aim to eat mostly clean

 

[Wimsicle]

Yo personally for your day to day keto macros I would swap your fat and protein macros around. 130-160g protein, 105-115g fat. Idk your stats, but since you're on AB I am going to assume you are doing keto as a cut at those cals, and I'd flop to maintain your muscle and cut the fat. 0.8-1.2g protein per lbm. I am guessing since I dont know your goals but I'll leave it here under assumption.

As far as your true question goes, just flop your carbs and fat macro around, with a little more fat (30-40g or so? Eggs, fish oil, etc.)

Any more questions feel free to ask and I'll offer some input. I just cut from 15% to 9.3% in about 12 weeks keto while progressing my lifts.

 

[ECWHY]

Yo personally for your day to day keto macros I would swap your fat and protein macros around. 130-160g protein, 105-115g fat. Idk your stats, but since you're on AB I am going to assume you are doing keto as a cut at those cals, and I'd flop to maintain your muscle and cut the fat. 0.8-1.2g protein per lbm. I am guessing since I dont know your goals but I'll leave it here under assumption.

As far as your true question goes, just flop your carbs and fat macro around, with a little more fat (30-40g or so? Eggs, fish oil, etc.)

Any more questions feel free to ask and I'll offer some input. I just cut from 15% to 9.3% in about 12 weeks keto while progressing my lifts.

5'8" sitting around 160lbs rn, but hoping to be around 158 on Saturday.

Current macros are <20g of carbs, .8g of protein/lbm, and rest fat.

From what I've read, eating .8 should be sufficient to maintain muscle, but I have also seen that 1-1.2 wouldn't be bad either. Main thing was I wanted to avoid being kicked out of ketosis w/ too much protein since I don't have a blood glucose reader, I just played it safe w/ .8.

Curious on if you did SKD, TKD or CKD. I was thinking TKD seems like the most effective. I was planning to use this refeed as a way to get refreshed a bit then transition into TKD (just PWO carb ups) or a refeed every 2-3 weeks depending on how I feel.

I thought fat should stay around 40-60g on a refeed?

 

[Wimsicle]

40-60 will probably work, I just keep all fat away from my carbs (my carb ups consist of low fat cereals, bagels, etc..)

However I followed strict SKD for about 6 weeks with a catabolic/anabolic recomp approach (starting weight 230, 1950 calories on workout days, 1700 on off days). Extra cals came from protein shake + mct pwo.

Then I transitioned into TKD. I ate 12g dextrose tablets (dex-4 I think? Idk found them on amazon for diabetes users. Taste like smarties (america candy kind). That gave me the perfect pump and def stepped up my game. Net carbs including the dextrose were about 35g a day after that. Never tested out of ketones using blood ketone.

Sitting at about 180 right now eating at maintenance for a while

I'm not a big CKD guy simply because I havent tried it. DieselNY(crap idk if thats his forum name or not) is a big CKD guy. He has a Facebook CKD group too lol

 

[ECWHY]

40-60 will probably work, I just keep all fat away from my carbs (my carb ups consist of low fat cereals, bagels, etc..)

However I followed strict SKD for about 6 weeks with a catabolic/anabolic recomp approach (starting weight 230, 1950 calories on workout days, 1700 on off days). Extra cals came from protein shake + mct pwo.

Then I transitioned into TKD. I ate 12g dextrose tablets (dex-4 I think? Idk found them on amazon for diabetes users. Taste like smarties (america candy kind). That gave me the perfect pump and def stepped up my game. Net carbs including the dextrose were about 35g a day after that. Never tested out of ketones using blood ketone.

Sitting at about 180 right now eating at maintenance for a while

I'm not a big CKD guy simply because I havent tried it. DieselNY(crap idk if thats his forum name or not) is a big CKD guy. He has a Facebook CKD group too lol

I think I will give TKD a go then, You think saturday I should do a refeed or just go into TKD? I probably won't get the dextrose in time so was thinking of just refeeding and starting TKD after.

Current plan for saturday refeed is:

Wake up at 730 am - take EC
1130 am - take mesomorph (skip EC dose) + BCAA (15g pre wo, 10g during/10 after)
12pm - workout
130 pm - workout ends
2 pm - breakfast (i do IF)
10pm - stop eating

then basically repeat for legs on Sunday.

Only thing is I usually train fasted so TKD might not work with my current schedule unless I push back my gym time or quit IF. But, dextrose (would probably get some candy until order comes in) + coconut oil would probably be mostly fine for the fast.

I think they'd both me used up pretty quickly. Was thinking of using them around 1.5 hrs PWO then an hour after that take meso so it's mostly on an empty stomach


Was thinking about doing some carbs pre WO on both days, but don't know if I want to break my fast for it.

 

[Wimsicle]

I would be fasted up until coffee + MCT + dextrose + creatine (blended) then Evomuse BMP and plcar. Worked wonders for me. If you absolutely must workout fasted, you could do weekly refeeds rather than TKD.

If you go TKD route, I'd skip the carb up (unless you feel really depleted..even so idk) and start TKD whenever you get it (you could just get some actual smarties until you get some dextrose. Or Gatorade powder or Gatorade will work too.)

 

[ECWHY]

I would be fasted up until coffee + MCT + dextrose + creatine (blended) then Evomuse BMP and plcar. Worked wonders for me. If you absolutely must workout fasted, you could do weekly refeeds rather than TKD.

If you go TKD route, I'd skip the carb up (unless you feel really depleted..even so idk) and start TKD whenever you get it (you could just get some actual smarties until you get some dextrose. Or Gatorade powder or Gatorade will work too.)

I think I'll probably try that instead. I can definitely change my eating window so I can eat earlier.

In that case, on Saturday/Sunday, I'd take gatorade + mesomorph + MCT/Coconut oil (currently have coconut oil, but can buy some MCT) + Creatine.

Mesomorph says to take it 40min pwo on an empty stomach (should get it tmrw night), but I usually warm up with 5-10 min of cardio and don't think that combo of 'food' should really effect it.

Thoughts?

 

[Wimsicle]

I have never taken mesomorph, so not really sure. I moved away from cardio warmup to 5 sets of 20 heavy kettlebell swing (45-50lbs). Obviously you are a little lighter than me so you could try 25-45 range kettle bell (or dumbell..I just use djmbell now) and really get after it with good form. I'm sweating hard by the time I start. Plus you get full body action with abs (core in general) hammies, shoulders, etc.

Play a round a little with what works and then get After it regardless what you choose! End of the day intensity intensity intensity

 

[ECWHY]

I have never taken mesomorph, so not really sure. I moved away from cardio warmup to 5 sets of 20 heavy kettlebell swing (45-50lbs). Obviously you are a little lighter than me so you could try 25-45 range kettle bell (or dumbell..I just use djmbell now) and really get after it with good form. I'm sweating hard by the time I start. Plus you get full body action with abs (core in general) hammies, shoulders, etc.

Play a round a little with what works and then get After it regardless what you choose! End of the day intensity intensity intensity

I might try that. Seems like a great way to get warmed up. Just ordered some Dextrose and with my prime amazon it might come in time to be clutch on Saturday.

Appreciate all the help. On your TKD, did you use any carbs post workout or only the pre workout dextrose stack?

Curious why you like the higher protein/lower fat on keto? Most people say to fill protein req. and carb req. then fill rest with fat. Did you just bump protein up to .9-1 g of BW?

Curious what your pecentage macro breakdown looks like?

 

[Wimsicle]

I might try that. Seems like a great way to get warmed up. Just ordered some Dextrose and with my prime amazon it might come in time to be clutch on Saturday.

Appreciate all the help. On your TKD, did you use any carbs post workout or only the pre workout dextrose stack?

Curious why you like the higher protein/lower fat on keto? Most people say to fill protein req. and carb req. then fill rest with fat. Did you just bump protein up to .9-1 g of BW?

Curious what your pecentage macro breakdown looks like?

With TKD, I only took the dextrose PWO. Would usually be "back in Ketosis" if you will within an hour after my workout. I started with 7g dextrose pwo, and then slowly over the course of 8 weeks moved up to 13ish grams and found my sweet spot. I was definitely fat adapated at that point though.

Also, just for the sake of discussion, there are studies out there showing that taking protein (i use a whey isolate) 30-45 min PWO will jumpstart MPS (Muscle Protein Synthesis). Paired with TKD, you'll be driving those nutrients into your muscles. Growth baby!

My macros were suggested via my trainer, who is the owner of ketogains. If you do a google search (don't know if I'm allowed to link or not) on ketogains, you will find their calculator. Always leave activity sedentary, and dont fill out exercise info, assuming your goal is weight loss or recomp, we eating back calories is silly.

I can help you in pm if you need it, but I followed the 0.8g per lbm while cutting / recomp.

Macros on workout days looked like: 175g protein, 120g fat, 35g net carbs (including dextrose)
Macros on non-workout days looked like: 150g protein, 105g fat, 20g net carbs (basically same minus the whey iso and mct pwo).

Hope that helps!

 

[Wimsicle]

Oh and dude I totally forgot, try adding 2-3g of sodium into your PWO (space it over like 10 minutes so you dont get the runs ).. total game changer lol

 

[ECWHY]

Sounds good. So do you just put sedentary because it's a safe estimate of tdee?

I do cardio 5-7 x per week along with lifting (usually 45-60min on off days, 20-30 on wo days) so I am fairly active. I will definitely use the .8g/lbm on that calculator. I actually used that to make the 110-115g req for protein because I would say sitting around 160, I would have 140-145 g of LBM.

Since you didn't test for ketones, how did you know it was your sweet spot? Just workout quality?

 

[Juicedeez utz]

I also take in 170g P which is 1g/lb it's about energy so I have 680 kcal from protein and have 130g of fat, 1170kcal then still most of my energy comes from fat which is to be your primary fuel source! These are my cutting macros btw with 15-20g net carb a day! Maintinence I just add fat and bulk I'll go 1.2p and add more fat

 

[DieselNY]

Sorry I missed when someone tagged me a while back, I have been doing CKD since the early/mid 1990's. Shoot me any questions..

 

[Sniper9191]

I am not nearly as experienced as the others that have replied, but I can tell you my body is different then theirs. I have been Keto now for almost 3 months and I noticed for myself that if my proteins were higher than 150g of protein, I wasn't feeling as good. It gave issues. I also train in the morning at about 5am. I personally like the stim sups to get me going. For Keto info I have came across two podcasts I love, KetoSavage and The Ketogenic Athlete. On one of those Podcast Dr. Jacob Wilson who does a lot of Keto studies was on. He did a study comparing SKD and CKD. Now he did state that this was a once a week refeed. He found that found that they both lost the same weight. The catch was the SKD lost only fat and the CKD lost fat and muscle. What he stated was in the CKD after the refeed it took most people a couple of days to get into Keto and then your in Keto for a day or two and then you refeed again. I tried to find the study to post it sorry. I see you were going to do 2 or 3 week refeed, so not the same as the study. The KetoSavge guy is a natural bodybuilder competitor and 100% Keto year round. His stuff is interesting. During his prep right now he is only taking in 65g of protein. This blew my mind. His percentages he tries to follow is 77F/20P/3C.

I know I might have rambled on, but just trying to possibly help. I have become somewhat passionate about Keto.

 

[DieselNY]

I was out in Vegas with Jacob Wilson and we both spoke at a keto seminar and he first presented that study to us and what he told us was feels the reason why the guys on CKD lost muscle was because they were never keto adapted so that's why myself and he recommends you do a strict ketogenic diet for a month or two before you start incorporating carbs and then you won't have any issues with potential muscle loss

 

[Sniper9191]

I can see that making sense. I thought I remember him also saying that in the time after the refeed the body works harder switching the source of fuel. Man I would love to get to go to one of his seminars! After doing a lot of research or listening to people, he's like a Rock Star. If you don't mind me PMing you with any future questions that would be cool?

 

[DieselNY]

Sure. No problem

 

[Sniper9191]

And sorry those numbers were percentages of the 77F/20P/3C

 

[DieselNY]

Yeah I like keto Savage and we chat often but he follows more of a 1940 epileptic therapeutic ketogenic ratios like most people do that don't fully grasp keto...but myself and many many Old Timers in the keto game know that percentages are useless and the only thing that matters in a ketogenic diet is carb restriction. I consume over 250 grams of protein a day and my fat grams vary from 50 to 100grams a day and I take blood Ketone test all the time and they're always perfect and I never have a problem with ketosis

 

[Sniper9191]

So basically what your saying is once you get fat adapted and in solid ketosis, is just control the carbs and your good?
What are your thoughts on the protein spill over I hear about, if you take to much protein it can turn into glucose?
Also how long does it take to get a solid pump when working out? My pump is nothing like how it is with carbs? Even with pump pre workouts it barely helps.

 

[DieselNY]

What you're referring to is gluconeogenesis it's an on going process happens all the time but it is a demand-driven process not a supply driven process so there really is no amount of protein that is going to be consumed that's going to change that, it happens all the time and your body will take what it needs when it needs it. If your body is not in need of more glucose then no matter how much protein you eat it's not going to convert any to glucose. To test this Theory I did a five-day test of consuming up to 500 grams of protein a day and I tested blood ketones every two hours for a total of 10 times per day and I had zero issues with maintaining ketosis.

Back in the 1990s just like you I would require those frequent carb ups to get the pump in the gym and not be flat but years later after I became so fully adapted I never need the carbs and in fact even when I carb up I don't get much of a difference at all in the gym compared to when I haven't had carbs because my body is so well adapted.

The secret is electrolytes and specifically sodium, whenever I help someone on ketogenic diet and they complain about being flat I have them up their sodium by a couple of grams pre-workout and the effect is magical

 

[Sniper9191]

Thanks I can See your a Keto Rock Star as well! Do you give any seminars in Michigan?
This might be a dumb question, but do you use the Pink Himalayan salt, normal salt, or something specific?
And thanks again this is obviously newer to me, but I am trying to read and listen to anything I can get my hands on. You know find that nugget of info that hits home for myself.

 

[DieselNY]

I use bullion cubes or powder pre workout but not very often only if I have an extended fast because I also combine intermittent fasting what a ketogenic diet. But other than that I just use normal salt.

No I don't really do seminars only from time to time if someone invites me.. fitnes etc is my passion not my full-time career

 

[Wimsicle]

Thanks I can See your a Keto Rock Star as well! Do you give any seminars in Michigan?
This might be a dumb question, but do you use the Pink Himalayan salt, normal salt, or something specific?
And thanks again this is obviously newer to me, but I am trying to read and listen to anything I can get my hands on. You know find that nugget of info that hits home for myself.

Trinch is indeed the man. Always has sound advice and helps thousands of folks daily as a hobby without kick back. Pretty rare these days

 

[DieselNY]

Well you can buy some vitamins etc if you want to make me smile. KetoGenics.com lol

 

[Wimsicle]

Well you can buy some vitamins etc if you want to make me smile. KetoGenics.com lol

I'm the one who named your sleep product haha

 

[Sniper9191]

This is why I love AnabolicMinds! Everyone is out to help each other out! Seems to be opposite of the world outside now a days, where everyone tries to take advantage of everyone.

Thank you again, much appreciated

 

[DieselNY]

I'm the one who named your sleep product haha

Truth!!

 

[Sniper9191]

I will definitely check the site out

 

[Sniper9191]

Just want to say thanks. Fist time taking in any sodium pre-workout and decent pump, but the fullness was crazy for me! Still better pump than usual. Again now back to the experiment table!

 

[Sniper9191]

The secret is electrolytes and specifically sodium, whenever I help someone on ketogenic diet and they complain about being flat I have them up their sodium by a couple of grams pre-workout and the effect is magical

Again want to say you are the man and will be following any of your posts now like religion!

 

[THOR 70]

Great Info in this thread. Thanks DieselNY for the info on gluconeogenesis.

 

[DieselNY]

Great Info in this thread. Thanks DieselNY for the info on gluconeogenesis.

My pleasure.