EC Stack vs. Morning YC and Later EC stack Use

ECWHY

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So, I am currently around 5'8.5" 161-162lbs, sitting around 13-14% bodyfat.

I currently fast from 3-9 (occasionally 10pm) while doing keto <20g of carbs a day. Hitting ~160-180g of Protein a day, ~120-140g of fat, and around an 800 cal deficit.


My current EC Intake is(started Saturday):

6 AM: 25 mg/200 Caffeine
10 AM: 25mg/200 Caffeine
2 pm: 12.5 mg/200 Caffeine (eat at 3)

I plan to do this for a couple days before jumping to a full third dose. I am pretty good with stimulants because I was a heavy coffee drinker before going on this stack so I have not noticed any negative effects.

I currently do fasted cardio 6-7 days a week, either on my rest day or after fasted weight training (I do drink BCAAs + creatine before the workout though).

I was planning on removing the third dose of EC on my off day (no lifting), and using Yohimbine instead since I just do cardio. Then on lifting days, just take 3 doses of EC.

I was thinking of doing the above, or just continuing with a 5-8 week (with a taper off caffeine to extend cycle to 8 weeks or so) EC cycle then while I am tapering off my caffeine, I would use the Yohimbine in place of the EC and quit the EC cold turkey when I start to taper the caffeine. I was thinking of doing this because I would probably be leaner which is when I heard the Yoh would be most effective, and it would be nice to pair with the caffeine taper.
 
mmorso

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Personally it looks like your gonna burn through some muscle doing keto, IF and that much cardio on top of an 800 kcal deficit...
 

ECWHY

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Personally it looks like your gonna burn through some muscle doing keto, IF and that much cardio on top of an 800 kcal deficit...
I am doing the cardio mainly because it is enjoyable and I like the conditioning it puts me in. I can eat more and try to stick around a 500-600 kcal deficit though. It is actually what I have been trying to do lately since I was on a 1k deficit a little while ago so slowly trying to decrease it.

TDEE is around 2800-3000 and my goal is around 2100-2300 cals a day depending on my activity for that day.

Overall, strength hasn't been horrible on this cut even without creatine or ec. Been around the same weight or slightly more each time I go to the gym.
 
mmorso

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You want to cycle EC stacks on 2 weeks off 2 weeks. You could run clenbuterol and oscillate between ECY and Clen... so you are taking a break from Clen with ECY and vice versa. I mention this because you want to run it for an extended period of time...

You could also add in ketotifen and run Clen longer...

I recently started taking forskolin and love it... I'm stacking it with Yohimbine
 

ECWHY

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You want to cycle EC stacks on 2 weeks off 2 weeks. You could run clenbuterol and oscillate between ECY and Clen... so you are taking a break from Clen with ECY and vice versa. I mention this because you want to run it for an extended period of time...

You could also add in ketotifen and run Clen longer...

I recently started taking forskolin and love it... I'm stacking it with Yohimbine
From what I've read, you can be on EC for actually quite a while, some say until the cut is over. I was really considering the morning yohimbine with cardio, and 3 doses of EC on days I lift.

Spent a good chunk of money recently so atm I only have ephedrine, yohimbine, and caffeine for my stims/cut supps.

I was thinking of building up to 3 doses of EC in the next couple days (probably saturday/sunday), do that for 2 weeks, then cut the third dose out (or make it a half), and on off days start using Yohimbine in the AM to slowly taper of the EC. Then, use Yohimbine for like 2-3 wks and taper off caffeine.
 
goodvibes

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With these types of protocol for eca stack it's a bit much to go past a month straight. I myself had been running eca for a few years now but only once a year for a good 8-10 weeks. My dose is only one 25 mg preworkout. Stacked with forskolin ?
 
john.patterson

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From what I've read, you can be on EC for actually quite a while, some say until the cut is over. I was really considering the morning yohimbine with cardio, and 3 doses of EC on days I lift.

Spent a good chunk of money recently so atm I only have ephedrine, yohimbine, and caffeine for my stims/cut supps.

I was thinking of building up to 3 doses of EC in the next couple days (probably saturday/sunday), do that for 2 weeks, then cut the third dose out (or make it a half), and on off days start using Yohimbine in the AM to slowly taper of the EC. Then, use Yohimbine for like 2-3 wks and taper off caffeine.
You're correct, there is no need to cycle EC. Studies have shown that ephedrine continues to be beneficial for extended periods of use. Even though you might not "feel" it as much as you do when you start using it, ephedrine can be used long term without any side effects.

In regards to adding in yohimbine, it is definitely best used in a fasted state toward the end of a cut to help with stubborn body fat. Depending on your tolerance to stims and EC, you could also consider adding in yohimbine with EC rather than replacing one with the other. Many people, including myself, have had great success with the EC-Y stack for fat loss.

But I do agree with what was said above regarding your deficit. 800 calories is a very large deficit to start out on, and when you plateau at this intake it will force you to go lower with your calories. I would recommend a more moderate deficit (300-400 cals) to start and see how that treats you. Adding in cardio will help increase your calorie expenditure, so there shouldn't be a need to cut calories that drastically that soon.
 
zcol94

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No need to cycle, as stated above ec continues working long after you stop feeling the effects, a study I saw on Lyle's website the other day showed it to become better at burning fat the longer you use it, use the y in your first dose it works best in a fasted state, to get the most out of y the longer your fasted pre and post dose the better, as soon as you eat it will stop doing much of anything as a fat burner
 

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You're correct, there is no need to cycle EC. Studies have shown that ephedrine continues to be beneficial for extended periods of use. Even though you might not "feel" it as much as you do when you start using it, ephedrine can be used long term without any side effects.

In regards to adding in yohimbine, it is definitely best used in a fasted state toward the end of a cut to help with stubborn body fat. Depending on your tolerance to stims and EC, you could also consider adding in yohimbine with EC rather than replacing one with the other. Many people, including myself, have had great success with the EC-Y stack for fat loss.

But I do agree with what was said above regarding your deficit. 800 calories is a very large deficit to start out on, and when you plateau at this intake it will force you to go lower with your calories. I would recommend a more moderate deficit (300-400 cals) to start and see how that treats you. Adding in cardio will help increase your calorie expenditure, so there shouldn't be a need to cut calories that drastically that soon.
I actually have been cutting for a while (since around dec 25th) because I started out around 193lbs. I slowly built up to a 1k deficit and had some great results but now that I am leaner, I was looking to slowly decrease it so will probably aim to sit around a 800-500 now.

With what you said in mind, I feel building up to the ec 3 doses is going to be my first move and stick with that until I get a bit leaner. I have done 25/25/12.5 mg yesterday with 200 mg of caffeine each and had no negative effects and zero trouble sleeping despite taking it around 6-630pm as my last dose so I feel I could definitely hit the 3 doses in the next few days.

I don't know if I want to do ECY together from what I've read about it. I know a lot do it without issue, but I'll see how I do with taking them separate. I stay fasted 9-10pm until 3 pm the next day so I could definitely reap the benefits of Y with the fasted state requirement. I usually work out around 6am-12pm depending on my schedule so there would be a good chunk of time that I would have Y in me with very low insulin levels.


No need to cycle, as stated above ec continues working long after you stop feeling the effects, a study I saw on Lyle's website the other day showed it to become better at burning fat the longer you use it, use the y in your first dose it works best in a fasted state, to get the most out of y the longer your fasted pre and post dose the better, as soon as you eat it will stop doing much of anything as a fat burner
Seems to be the consensus. I am thinking of building up to 3 doses of EC in the next few days, running that until I get to the point where I am around 11-12% then throw the Y in the morning for cardio and keep using the E for days I lift fasted, unless you think using Yohimbine before lifting (I do cardio after) would be fine.
 
mmorso

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I stand corrected!!! That's good to know e can be used longer...

OP where are your lifts at brother? With your stats you've gotta be getting tiny. Slow and steady weight loss is where it's at if you value your lean mass... IMO there's no reason to get to below 10% BF if you've got no LBM to showcase.
 
mmorso

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goodvibes and john.patterson do you guys know if there is any benefit to taking a lower dose of ephedrine? I'm on Rx adderal and am hesitant to run ECY. I'm thinking of just dosing 1 primatene tab (12.5) with caffeine and Yohimbine but don't know if it's even worth it... is 25mg the only dose that's been studied for lipolysis?
 
zcol94

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I actually have been cutting for a while (since around dec 25th) because I started out around 193lbs. I slowly built up to a 1k deficit and had some great results but now that I am leaner, I was looking to slowly decrease it so will probably aim to sit around a 800-500 now.

With what you said in mind, I feel building up to the ec 3 doses is going to be my first move and stick with that until I get a bit leaner. I have done 25/25/12.5 mg yesterday with 200 mg of caffeine each and had no negative effects and zero trouble sleeping despite taking it around 6-630pm as my last dose so I feel I could definitely hit the 3 doses in the next few days.

I don't know if I want to do ECY together from what I've read about it. I know a lot do it without issue, but I'll see how I do with taking them separate. I stay fasted 9-10pm until 3 pm the next day so I could definitely reap the benefits of Y with the fasted state requirement. I usually work out around 6am-12pm depending on my schedule so there would be a good chunk of time that I would have Y in me with very low insulin levels.




Seems to be the consensus. I am thinking of building up to 3 doses of EC in the next few days, running that until I get to the point where I am around 11-12% then throw the Y in the morning for cardio and keep using the E for days I lift fasted, unless you think using Yohimbine before lifting (I do cardio after) would be fine.
Y pre lifting is fine, lifting is also getting your blood flowing and burning calories, allowing the y to start moving fatty acids... It also depends on how you tolerate all the stims... I'd recommend looking around online for Lyle McDonald's stubborn fat loss book. It can be found for free and he goes very in depth on the how/ why/ when to take yohimbe
 

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I stand corrected!!! That's good to know e can be used longer...

OP where are your lifts at brother? With your stats you've gotta be getting tiny. Slow and steady weight loss is where it's at if you value your lean mass... IMO there's no reason to get to below 10% BF if you've got no LBM to showcase.
I haven't done maxes in a while but on my chest days I am currently doing 3 x 10-12 of 155lbs. When I was 190, I was getting 225 x 5lbs for 1 set.

Seems like a bit of a drop, but with the 155, I am really concentrating on going slow with the bar.

Admittedly, I have not done deadlifts/squats in a couple months. Deadlifts mainly because was not really enjoying them, and decided to switch them for T-Bar rows. Squats were more because I am currently doing a lot of cardio (either running, or basketball) plus I am trying to reduce some of my leg size to let my upper body catch up.

I am not huge by any means but I am trying to correct a dirty bulk that became just gaining weight, so when I lean bulk after this cut, I would like to start as lean as possible.

edit: You just made me re-add deadlifts to my routine. Really probably one of the staple exercises.

Y pre lifting is fine, lifting is also getting your blood flowing and burning calories, allowing the y to start moving fatty acids... It also depends on how you tolerate all the stims... I'd recommend looking around online for Lyle McDonald's stubborn fat loss book. It can be found for free and he goes very in depth on the how/ why/ when to take yohimbe
Sounds good, I'll do the EC until I get leaner then when I cycle off it, I'll use Y. I would say I am pretty good with stims since this is my 5th day on EC and I am easily fine with 25mg/200 x 2 so far with a later dose of 12.5mg/200mg.

That is the one book I cannot find by Lyle. Have found all of his others, but that one all seems to lead to dead links. Not really feeling the $45 to get it legally either.
 
zcol94

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I found it somewhere on reddit a couple years ago, link might not be good anymore
 
john.patterson

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+1 on Lyle McDonald's stubborn fat loss solution book - great read, and excellent info. OP, you could always start the day with yohimbine preworkout, and consider adding in EC after your workout, and maybe just do 2 doses of EC instead of 3.

goodvibes and john.patterson do you guys know if there is any benefit to taking a lower dose of ephedrine? I'm on Rx adderal and am hesitant to run ECY. I'm thinking of just dosing 1 primatene tab (12.5) with caffeine and Yohimbine but don't know if it's even worth it... is 25mg the only dose that's been studied for lipolysis?
Definitely be careful with mixing adderal with ephedrine and/or yohimbine. I would definitely start on the lower side for dosing with both if you're combining them. I would also suggest looking into alpha-yohimbine. The side effects are usually less pronounced than the sides that some experience with y-hcl. Check out Performax Labs Ta-2 Max if you're looking to try out alpha-y. It's a great alternative that will might be a better product to use if you're taking adderal
 
mmorso

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I haven't done maxes in a while but on my chest days I am currently doing 3 x 10-12 of 155lbs. When I was 190, I was getting 225 x 5lbs for 1 set.

Seems like a bit of a drop, but with the 155, I am really concentrating on going slow with the bar.

Admittedly, I have not done deadlifts/squats in a couple months. Deadlifts mainly because was not really enjoying them, and decided to switch them for T-Bar rows. Squats were more because I am currently doing a lot of cardio (either running, or basketball) plus I am trying to reduce some of my leg size to let my upper body catch up.

I am not huge by any means but I am trying to correct a dirty bulk that became just gaining weight, so when I lean bulk after this cut, I would like to start as lean as possible.
I fell into that trap bro and here's what I think: your throwing out the baby with the bath water by not caring how much LBM you lose while cutting... you gotta benefit somehow from your dirty bulk (i.e. Just lose the BF).

Be patient!!! Also, when cutting or going in a deficit I make sure I lift heavy to encourage my body to retain mass. Resistance training is about adaptation: your body adapting to the weight load. You lighten the load and you'll lose strength really fast when in a kcal deficit. This gets frustrating

Squats suck when doing all that cardio, but the squat causes so much metabolic stress that the body responds by increasing hormone production. Concentrate on heavy compound movements and keep a modest deficit is my suggestion... I've just been there before with losing too much on a cut and it's had me almost give up my fitness goals...
 

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I fell into that trap bro and here's what I think: your throwing out the baby with the bath water by not caring how much LBM you lose while cutting... you gotta benefit somehow from your dirty bulk (i.e. Just lose the BF).

Be patient!!! Also, when cutting or going in a deficit I make sure I lift heavy to encourage my body to retain mass. Resistance training is about adaptation: your body adapting to the weight load. You lighten the load and you'll lose strength really fast when in a kcal deficit. This gets frustrating

Squats suck when doing all that cardio, but the squat causes so much metabolic stress that the body responds by increasing hormone production. Concentrate on heavy compound movements and keep a modest deficit is my suggestion... I've just been there before with losing too much on a cut and it's had me almost give up my fitness goals...
Thank you for all of the information. Really helpful.

I will lower my reps on my compound movements and see how I feel. Overall, my strength has been quite good on this deficit though. I will try to hit 6-8 reps on the compounds, and 10-12 on some of the isolation.

I will definitely add squats very soon. I gotta plan my cardio schedule around them, but I do agree that they are a great movement.


+1 on Lyle McDonald's stubborn fat loss solution book - great read, and excellent info. OP, you could always start the day with yohimbine preworkout, and consider adding in EC after your workout, and maybe just do 2 doses of EC instead of 3.
Sounds good. I was planning on doing that exact thing once I went on the EC stack for a bit. I wanted to lean out a bit more because from what I've read, Y is more beneficial for people that are leaner.

So, I know that the EC stack can be ran for quite a while, but what would you recommend? I was thinking 3-4 weeks on with the full dose, then add the Y and do that for another 3-4 wks, then slowly taper off so I can reset my caffeine tolerance. Or, should I not be concerned about the caffeine?

I was a very heavy coffee drinker (10-12 cups on some days, usually around 8) before this so my tolerance is probably decently high.
 
john.patterson

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Sounds good. I was planning on doing that exact thing once I went on the EC stack for a bit. I wanted to lean out a bit more because from what I've read, Y is more beneficial for people that are leaner.

So, I know that the EC stack can be ran for quite a while, but what would you recommend? I was thinking 3-4 weeks on with the full dose, then add the Y and do that for another 3-4 wks, then slowly taper off so I can reset my caffeine tolerance. Or, should I not be concerned about the caffeine?

I was a very heavy coffee drinker (10-12 cups on some days, usually around 8) before this so my tolerance is probably decently high.
It's always wise to take breaks from stimulants periodically, especially caffeine. Giving your body a break from stims can be very beneficial as a "one step backward, two steps forward" approach. Tapering the EC would be a smart decision, especially if you're nearing the end of your cut. I would also incorporate a full stim break at some point where you drop the yohimbine and EC all together and allow your body a break.

Yohimbine works differently, but it is still a stimulant. Taking a complete stim break can allow your tolerance to improve so lower doses will be more effective.
 

ECWHY

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It's always wise to take breaks from stimulants periodically, especially caffeine. Giving your body a break from stims can be very beneficial as a "one step backward, two steps forward" approach. Tapering the EC would be a smart decision, especially if you're nearing the end of your cut. I would also incorporate a full stim break at some point where you drop the yohimbine and EC all together and allow your body a break.

Yohimbine works differently, but it is still a stimulant. Taking a complete stim break can allow your tolerance to improve so lower doses will be more effective.
Sounds good, I'll play it by ear near the end of my cut. Really appreciate you and mmorso taking so much time to help out. I learned a ton.
 
john.patterson

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Sounds good, I'll play it by ear near the end of my cut. Really appreciate you and mmorso taking so much time to help out. I learned a ton.
You're welcome my man, any time. You've come to a good forum for info
 
mmorso

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Sounds good, I'll play it by ear near the end of my cut. Really appreciate you and mmorso taking so much time to help out. I learned a ton.
No prob... all things I've learned here
 
money0351

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You want to cycle EC stacks on 2 weeks off 2 weeks. You could run clenbuterol and oscillate between ECY and Clen... so you are taking a break from Clen with ECY and vice versa. I mention this because you want to run it for an extended period of time...

You could also add in ketotifen and run Clen longer...

I recently started taking forskolin and love it... I'm stacking it with Yohimbine
You had the right idea about cycling the two, but the reason you would want to isn't because of there are diminishing effects of Ephedrine (which can be ran safely for an extended period of time) it's because of the quick down regulation of the receptors clenbuterol acts upon (it's a beta2 agonist)

Because OP isn't running Clen, this wouldn't be an issue
 

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