Cut to sub10% (preferably 8%) (FIRST POST)

  1. Cut to sub10% (preferably 8%) (FIRST POST)


    Hi all,

    This is my first post in the AnabolicMinds forum but before I begin my rambling, thank YOU all for being so concise and thoughtful in your comments to this community (they have helped me immensely when trying new supplements many of which are incredible and staples to my stack).

    But now, back to business....

    I am 21 years old, 195 lbs (was 200 even on my bulk), and roughly high 12, low 13% bodyfat. My cut began on January 1st and I plan on cutting until I hit roughly 8% bodyfat. I was just curious if you all would be willing to give me a little advice as to what a good macro split, supplement stack and cardio "routine" (if any) would be. I'll give my current stack, training split, macro count and cardio thus far. Thanks again guys, I couldn't have done this without you!

    Stack

    • Olympus Labs Bloodshr3d Raw Edition (1.5 scoop morning pre breakfast, 1.5 scoop pre workout)
    • Olympus Labs Forslean (1 capsule morning, 1 capsule night)
    • Genomyx Slinsane (1 capsule preworkout, 1 capsule night before bed)
    • Olympus Labs Endur3 (post workout stacked with 5g leucine, 5g glutamine, 3g creatine HCL)
    • Fish Oil (2000mg, 800mg EPA, 600mg DHA)
    • Probiotic



    Training Split

    Monday: Chest
    Tuesday: Back
    Wednesday: Shoulders
    Thursday: Arms
    Friday: Legs
    Saturday: Wherever I Feel I Am Lacking
    Sunday: Rest

    Macro

    It's just easier to show you all a visual:

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    Note these are meals logged excluding my post workout dinner which will be an omelette with a side of oats, so I guess add 35g protein, 25g carbs, 5-10 g fat

    Cardio

    LISS 15min of either incline treadmill/stairmaster, will increase when results slow. Will start dropping calories more once plateau occurs.May start implementing more high intensity cardio outdoors once the snow melts here in Upstate NY

    Thanks all, hope this was specific enough! Feel free to ask questions to clarify, and thanks again!


  2. Well you're starting from a good spot. 195 13% you prob look like a beast already. U shouldn't have any trouble getting to 8 pretty quickly. For ref last year it took me 6 months to go from 18 to 8 % and I was just learning along the way.

    I like the liss fir cardio, even on a cut. I'd go 20-25 though as it takes the body roughly 15 min before it starts dipping into fat reserves. I'd rotate some tabata in as well or hiit if you like. I'm not s fan of 45-60 min steady state though, I know some are but not me.

    Macros. I'd go for something like this: figure out your tdee, how much kcal u burn in a day, then try to stay close to that number at first before u drop kcals. U do this bc if ur losing at a higher. Al intake you're better off fir it. Try to aim fir about 1-2 lbs loss per week. If you're in this range it should be fat loss. Try getting about 25% of your cals from good fats but a little sat fat isn't bad either just b careful not to overdo it. Next aim for 1-1.25g of protein per bw, fill the rest in with complex carbs. Try splitting meals into 6+ a day with about 2-3 hrs in between each. Post workout meal counts as 1 which is where you'll want some simple carbs.

    As for training I use same split except I do legs then second chest back and finish with arms. Also, I try to hit abs 4-5 times a week on cut but just 2 each time rotating exercises as week goes on. I do same with calves, 3 times though 1 on back 1 on leg day and one on arm day.

    This was a quick little post but then f u gave any ? Ask I'm starting a cut in a cpl weeks too. Trying to figure out my support stack still this time around
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnthunder View Post
    Well you're starting from a good spot. 195 13% you prob look like a beast already. U shouldn't have any trouble getting to 8 pretty quickly. For ref last year it took me 6 months to go from 18 to 8 % and I was just learning along the way.

    I like the liss fir cardio, even on a cut. I'd go 20-25 though as it takes the body roughly 15 min before it starts dipping into fat reserves. I'd rotate some tabata in as well or hiit if you like. I'm not s fan of 45-60 min steady state though, I know some are but not me.

    Macros. I'd go for something like this: figure out your tdee, how much kcal u burn in a day, then try to stay close to that number at first before u drop kcals. U do this bc if ur losing at a higher. Al intake you're better off fir it. Try to aim fir about 1-2 lbs loss per week. If you're in this range it should be fat loss. Try getting about 25% of your cals from good fats but a little sat fat isn't bad either just b careful not to overdo it. Next aim for 1-1.25g of protein per bw, fill the rest in with complex carbs. Try splitting meals into 6+ a day with about 2-3 hrs in between each. Post workout meal counts as 1 which is where you'll want some simple carbs.

    As for training I use same split except I do legs then second chest back and finish with arms. Also, I try to hit abs 4-5 times a week on cut but just 2 each time rotating exercises as week goes on. I do same with calves, 3 times though 1 on back 1 on leg day and one on arm day.

    This was a quick little post but then f u gave any ? Ask I'm starting a cut in a cpl weeks too. Trying to figure out my support stack still this time around
    No just no..
    First of all there is no need for 6+ meals a day. That is a long shot myth from god knows how long ago.
    Meal frequency is personal depending. There is plenty of research to show you less meals is more optimal and helps with MPS (Muscle Protein Synthesis) compared to more meals.

    When your dieting what is more satisfying eating 200 calorie meals every 2-3 hours or eating larger more satisfying meals?

    http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf
    http://www.slideshare.net/biolayne/o...nd-muscle-mass

    Secondly Fat intake should not be that low on the cut Especially if you are just starting. Your kcals are way too low at 1700 kcals starting out around 200 pounds. It should be far greater then that. Dieting is about keeping calories as high as possible, doing the least amount of cardio and still losing weight. Dropping calories super low to start is a recipe for disaster. When you stall what can you do? Add cardio or drop calories. If calories are already tanked your just setting your body up for starvation, muscle loss, and you have no room to modify your macros because your basically eating next to nothing. Fat is essential. Diet for a long time on low fat and see how your hormones like you. They won't. Your levels will tank. Mood will become horrible, you will get cold very fast, and your energy will be horrendous. Not to mention your testosterone levels will plummet.

    The need for simple carbs post-workout has been debunked years ago, and there is no advantage over simple carbs then complex carbs assuming macros are met in the 24 hour period. What matters most when dieting is MICRONUTRIENTS, since your calories are low, Getting the majority of your carbs or simple carbs from sugar or simple carbs would not be optimal. Veggies and other fibrous or nutrient dense foods alawys come first and foremost. The need for simple carbs or spiking insulin is long gone.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15277409
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17617942



    For most of us who train with an intra-workout BCAA or pre-workout meal there is stil food overlap as i touched in the other thread, do we need to spike insulin? absolutely not, food is still digesting, aminos are still present, so do we really need simple carbs post-workout not really..

    Could they be optimal .. sure why not? but remember the total calories/macros if meeting your protein/fat/fiber minimums on a daily basis are optimal for your goal.


    more:

    The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulin levels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

    So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

    To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204

    Here's what you're not seeming to grasp: the "windows" for taking advantage of nutrient timing are not little peepholes. They're more like bay windows of a mansion. You're ignoring just how long the anabolic effects are of a typical mixed meal. Depending on the size of a meal, it takes a good 1-2 hours for circulating substrate levels to peak, and it takes a good 3-6 hours (or more) for everythng to drop back down to baseline.

    You're also ignoring the fact that the anabolic effects of a meal are maxed out at much lower levels than typical meals drive insulin & amino acids up to. Furthermore, you're also ignoring the body's ability of anabolic (& fat-oxidative) supercompensation when forced to work in the absence of fuels. So, metaphorically speaking, our physiology basically has the universe mapped out and you're thinking it needs to be taught addition & subtraction.




    More:

    "You do not need to neccessarily "spike" insulin for creatine to be maximally absorbed, but yes insulin is involved with the trasnsport.

    FYI: The insulin and creatine studies I have seen up to this point have involved taking the glucose 30 minutes after the creatine. This may be because the insulin release from the dextrose doesn't entirely coincident with the pharmacokinetics of the creatine absorption.

    Personally I think more consistent waves of insulin may be more anabolic than "spikes" anyway. This is because smoother waves of insulin more than likely affect ATP production more beneficially than "spikes" probably do. ATP is what rebuilds muscles and you want the most efficiency you can get here. I'm saying this because there is a delicate balance here between oxidative phosphorylation and lipogenesis (stimulated by acetyl COA carboxylase from HCO3-) in the mitochondrial in the presence of insulin. This "balance" I am talking about here is different for everyone though. Some people "shunt" over to lipgenesis so much sooner than other people. This has to do with other "global" processes happening in the body."

    http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319


    The postexercise "anabolic window" is a highly misused & abused concept. Preworkout nutrition all but cancels the urgency, unless you're an endurance athlete with multiple glycogen-depleting events in a single day. Getting down to brass tacks, a relatively recent study (Power et al. 2009) showed that a 45g dose of whey protein isolate takes appx 50 minutes to cause blood AA levels to peak. Resulting insulin levels, which peaked at 40 minutes after ingestion, remained at elevations known to max out the inhibition of muscle protein breakdown (15-30 mU/L) for 120 minutes after ingestion. This dose takes 3 hours for insulin & AA levels to return to baseline from the point of ingestion. The inclusion of carbs to this dose would cause AA & insulinlevels to peak higher & stay elevated above baseline even longer.

    So much for the anabolic peephole & the urgency to down AAs during your weight training workout; they are already seeping into circulation (& will continue to do so after your training bout is done). Even in the event that a preworkout meal is skipped, the anabolic effect of the postworkout meal is increased as a supercompensatory response (Deldicque et al, 2010). Moving on, another recent study (Staples et al, 2010) found that a substantial dose of carbohydrate (50g maltodextrin) added to 25g whey protein was unable to further increase postexercise net muscle protein balance compared to the protein dose without carbs. Again, this is not to say that adding carbs at this point is counterproductive, but it certainly doesn't support the idea that you must get your lightning-fast postexercise carb orgy for optimal results.

    To add to this... Why has the majority of longer-term research failed to show any meaningful differences in nutrient timing relative to the resistance training bout? It's likely because the body is smarter than we give it credit for. Most people don't know that as a result of a single training bout, the receptivity of muscle to protein dosing can persist for at least 24 hours: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204


    Cliffs:
    - Your kcals are too low for your cut ATM
    - Fat intake is too low which can lead to hormone, and testosterone issues
    - no need to eat 6+ meals a day , more reseaerch shown on a less meal frequency spread out meals 4-6 hours apart
    - need for simple carbs postworkout is a long myth. Focus on Micronutrients first and foremost
    - Do the least amount of cardio and keep your calories as high as possible while still losing weight.

    If Cutting Read the following:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...s-part-1.html/
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...s-part-2.html/

    I highly suggest you read here regarding your diet:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...s-part-1.html/
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...s-part-2.html/
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  4. I just posted fir what worked for me last time i did a cut. But this guy competes against on stage so listen to him. I knuw I'm going to as I plan my upcoming cut
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodnthunder View Post
    I just posted fir what worked for me last time i did a cut. But this guy competes against on stage so listen to him. I knuw I'm going to as I plan my upcoming cut
    Cutting works if
    1) your in a caloric deficit
    2) Your consistent

    Things (Meal Timing, Food sources) are not always set in stone. The myth of needing to eat every 2-3 hours and watching the clock has been debunked for years

    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...1550-2783-10-5
    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/nutrient-timing
    http://www.alanaragonblog.com/wp-con...a-analysis.pdf
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/res...h-review.html/

    Pre and Post workout nutrition


    Meal Frequency


    Some other good info for OP:

    When are Carbs and Protein VERY Important Post-workout?

    Carbs:
    - During leg Training + HIIT Cardio or doing a 2-3 hour intense workout session
    Protein:
    -Resistance Training in a fasted state (no meal consumed at least 3-4 hours prior)

    When are Carbs and Protein of lesser importance Post-workout?

    Carbs:
    - 1-2 hour training session after a pre-workout meal (Small or mixed 2-3 hours prior to session)
    Protein:
    - Training after a meal composed of 20-40g Protein at least 1-2 hours prior to a workout in a fed state.

    Overall Cliffs:

    - Nutrient Timing can be beneficial but window of opportunity is not as big as believed
    - Provided protein rich meal 3-4 hours prior to training, there is no stress about immediate post-workout protein supplement or meal
    - Consume .4-.5g/kg of LBM in a pre/post workout exercise window spaced 4-6 hours depending on meal size.
    - Post workout carb intake does not meaningful increase aabolicsm unless doing a 2 a day workout session involving same muscle groups. Glycogen is not a limting factor if you can consume enough Carbohydrates daily in the 24 hour period.



    Just some food for thought... Still OP's kcals are too low to start
    Fat is way too low, and without fat (which is essential) one mood will drop, energy will drop, and same with testosterone levels. I would get some bloodwork done prior to your diet phase to make sure your hormones are in check and then get a follow up when your done if you decide to stay very low fat. It may be counter producitve and drop your test levels below normal range.
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  6. Cut to sub10% (preferably 8%) (FIRST POST)


    Thanks so much for all the input gents! Is there any fats that are better than others? I usually get my fats from nuts, eggs, protein sources. This is only my second cut so I'm still learning the ropes so all the resources you provided are excellent. Is there any way you think I should eat more calories? I try and eat when I'm hungry but that usually leads to the caloric intake I'm at currently. When I bulk, I try and eat as much as possible but comparatively to macros that others report, mine don't come close in terms of calories. Again thanks so much and I'll check out all of the links
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeusv2 View Post
    Thanks so much for all the input gents! Is there any fats that are better than others? I usually get my fats from nuts, eggs, protein sources. This is only my second cut so I'm still learning the ropes so all the resources you provided are excellent. Is there any way you think I should eat more calories? I try and eat when I'm hungry but that usually leads to the caloric intake I'm at currently. When I bulk, I try and eat as much as possible but comparatively to macros that others report, mine don't come close in terms of calories. Again thanks so much and I'll check out all of the links
    aim for all fat sources
    nuts, meat, whole eggs, avacadoes, nut butters. Don't limit yourself to 1 or 2 things. More variety = better
    Increase your fats/carbs instantly thats how you eat more kcals. Monitor the scale and mirror. If you continue to look leaner or hold your body composition and the scale is not moving then your fine.. FIND Your maintainace and give your body the most amount of flexibility to lose weight.

    When you bulk and eat as much as possible thats not tracking. Thats not being consistent. THATS The probelm. You need to track your intake to be accurate and precise, Just eating till your full or as much as possible = recipe for disaster and fat gain
    For example @booneman77, @mkretz, and @GNO on here could eat 10,000 calories everyday and feel fine, but it would not be optimal. Nor would they want to do that because they would never be in good shape lol. Some people have a never ending stomach.
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    aim for all fat sources
    nuts, meat, whole eggs, avacadoes, nut butters. Don't limit yourself to 1 or 2 things. More variety = better
    Increase your fats/carbs instantly thats how you eat more kcals. Monitor the scale and mirror. If you continue to look leaner or hold your body composition and the scale is not moving then your fine.. FIND Your maintainace and give your body the most amount of flexibility to lose weight.

    When you bulk and eat as much as possible thats not tracking. Thats not being consistent. THATS The probelm. You need to track your intake to be accurate and precise, Just eating till your full or as much as possible = recipe for disaster and fat gain
    For example @booneman77, @mkretz, and @GNO on here could eat 10,000 calories everyday and feel fine, but it would not be optimal. Nor would they want to do that because they would never be in good shape lol. Some people have a never ending stomach.
    Thanks so much for the valuable and insightful advice and input yet again! I will definitely go through with all the above as last cut was fairly static in terms of progress. With the caloric increase, would you recommend I still keep my current supplementation and cardio the same? Or is there a different path you think or know I should follow? I have big goals for this cut and take my current physique and fitness/health goals very seriously; I guess I just need a proper "talking to" in regards to making my results more prominent. I added in some almonds with my greek yogurt/pb fit powder today, so far I am liking this change haha. Thanks again, if pictures end up needing to be posted, by all means tell me and I will provide
  9. AnabolicMinds Site Rep
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofzeusv2 View Post
    Thanks so much for the valuable and insightful advice and input yet again! I will definitely go through with all the above as last cut was fairly static in terms of progress. With the caloric increase, would you recommend I still keep my current supplementation and cardio the same? Or is there a different path you think or know I should follow? I have big goals for this cut and take my current physique and fitness/health goals very seriously; I guess I just need a proper "talking to" in regards to making my results more prominent. I added in some almonds with my greek yogurt/pb fit powder today, so far I am liking this change haha. Thanks again, if pictures end up needing to be posted, by all means tell me and I will provide
    Read the links from body recomposition.
    Cardio reccomendations are in there.
    15 minutes is fine.
    Remember THE LEAST AMOUNT while still losing is key.
    This gives you flexibility to add more when you stall.

    I would not start the supps until you hit a roadblock. Remember "Supplements" are that. they aid a good diet and training routine.
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  10. Well said my man. Thanks again for all your help! I began reading last night but began falling asleep (long day at work lol). I will continue today, again thank you so much!
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