JUDGE THIS STATEMENT!

[jeffdog]

so tell me if this would be a correct statement: Before you start a bulk be at a BFP that you are comfortable with because once you start the bulk there is no going back. Furthermore, if you start the bulk and mess up and get too fat then you basically have to stop, diet down, and start over again.....that sound right?

 

[vujade]

Personally i would never try to bulk if you are not at your ideal BF percentage already.
Its counterproductive to gain mass, only to have to diet down and lose a good percentage
of it to cut the fat.

Its much better to get yourself shred up with lower bodyfat, and then your body will be in
a perfect state to gain muscle.

 

[Cole Dreyer]

so tell me if this would be a correct statement: Before you start a bulk be at a BFP that you are comfortable with because once you start the bulk there is no going back. Furthermore, if you start the bulk and mess up and get too fat then you basically have to stop, diet down, and start over again.....that sound right?

If you are not happy with your current level of leanness and if being lean(er) is important to you then I would diet first.

BUT there are sever things you can do to limit fat gain, or even lose fat, while in a bulking phase.

The first thing would be to program a recomp phase that would lead into a lean gaining phase. A 3-6 week period of aggressive, intense training, some cardio and a very flawless diet with some specific macronutrient timings could certainly cause you to lose some body fat while building some lean tissue and burning some fat.

From there you could then slowly increase the calories in specific macronutrients at specific times of your day in relation to your training window to try to skew those calories going to muscle growth opposed to being stored as adipose (fat) tissue. You could do this until you feel like you have gotten too fat and then scale back the calories and increase your cardio for 3-6 weeks of a mini diet and then start the process over.

This way you could be continually lean gaining while minimizing and even lower fat gain.

 

[DocOptimzed]

Well put. Gradual approach of increasing calories and keeping a steady eye on things has always gotten me great lean gains while bulking

 

[double s]

Never truly understood the philosophy of bulking after cutting. Too many times I see people diet down to 15+% BF only to bulk up with nothing but junk, basically back to where they started from....

 

[enraged_chris]

It really depends in my opinion. If you are a total beginner and not very fatty (normal) I'd focus on a slight caloric surplus. You'll see some recomp if you're at that level. Once you have SOME level of muscle mass-- you can then focus on cutting. But if you have 0 mass... you have nothing to cut down to.

 

[lifted67]

Be smart, start at @ at least 10%

 

[enraged_chris]

Be smart, start at @ at least 10%

If the person is 15% and skinny fat, they definitely should bulk first. Don't need skeletor running around.

 

[lifted67]

If the person is 15% and skinny fat, they definitely should bulk first. Don't need skeletor running around.

If the person is 15% body fat they're more likely to add fat as mass over muscle in caloric excess. Smart dieting and weight training will prevent them from becoming "Skeletor" in a cut.

 

[enraged_chris]

If the person is 15% body fat they're more likely to add fat as mass over muscle in caloric excess. Smart dieting and weight training will prevent them from becoming "Skeletor" in a cut.

If you have 0 muscle to start with, you won't have anything to cut down to. I don't care what your diet and training is. If you're skinny fat with 15% muscle mass, you should focus on putting on weight. 5'10" 120lbs (for example) skinny fat shouldn't even think of the word cut. The story is different if you are larger but if you are skinny fat, you need to focus on adding some size. You will put on muscle with smart training and diet and won't waste as much time and will look much better for it.

 

[Alpha1a]

Starting out is completely different thou I get what you're saying because that's what I did , I started at 160 I was the definition of skinny fat , beer belly and 11in arms, just focused for a year and change on bulking before I cut , and even then I went back to bulking real quick till I eventually got to 220 and then cut all the fat. But I don't believe the OP was talking about starting out. So that doesn't really count to the conversation just because imo everyone is talking about a different place in the timeline

 

[enraged_chris]

Starting out is completely different thou I get what you're saying because that's what I did , I started at 160 I was the definition of skinny fat , beer belly and 11in arms, just focused for a year and change on bulking before I cut , and even then I went back to bulking real quick till I eventually got to 220 and then cut all the fat. But I don't believe the OP was talking about starting out. So that doesn't really count to the conversation just because imo everyone is talking about a different place in the timeline

If you're more experienced I would definitely agree with cut first bulk later. Way easier to bulk lean and way more flexibility, imo. Better nutrient partitioning.

 

[lifted67]

If you have 0 muscle to start with, you won't have anything to cut down to. I don't care what your diet and training is. If you're skinny fat with 15% muscle mass, you should focus on putting on weight. 5'10" 120lbs (for example) skinny fat shouldn't even think of the word cut. The story is different if you are larger but if you are skinny fat, you need to focus on adding some size. You will put on muscle with smart training and diet and won't waste as much time and will look much better for it.

Dude, wtf are you talking about?! Fact: 15% body fat is 15% body fat, whether it's in his ass or his elbows... fact: bulking now won't magically turn his gut into bicep muscle.

If you're using your head and realizing that quality>quantity then obviously leaning out further (even at the risk of some muscle loss) is smarter than just piling fat of fat and *some* muscle gain.

If you don't believe me or the other majority of members who posted the exact same thing I said in this thread then here are several other articles line supporting my statement.

 

[enraged_chris]

If you are 15% bodyfat and have 0 muscle mass... you will cut and be a skeleton. If you have 15% bodyfat and have proper diet and training you will put on almost fully muscle AS A BEGINNER, this will lower your body fat percentage because you will have more lean mass, not less actual fat. After you put on some muscle and exhaust newb gains. Then focus on cutting. I have seen many many people who are new to the gym make this mistake and try to cut down to abs... when they have nothing to cut down too. If you look at many great powerlifters, strength and conditioning coaches, they will say the same thing. This is what we would have athletes do in the d1 strength and conditioning facility I interned in. Cutting first, when you have no muscle mass and are a beginner, is going to be a waste if you're skinnyfat (not fat). Those are great general rules you posted above for someone with experience but for a basic beginner the stimulus from adding in proper weight training and a solid diet will provide significantly more benefits than wasting your time cutting first. You can be 15% bodyfat and be very very skinny. This is not for your average "dad bod" type body which has some muscle mass hidden under a lot of fat. You can reduce bodyfat by putting on muscle mass and that is made easier by being a beginner with no mass on you at all. These people don't have horrible insulin sensitivity and other issues that fat people have. I am not disagreeing with you that if you are fat you should definitely cut first but the statement made is too general and there is far more nuance to the situation. The articles your quotes are not taking that into account and are addressed to your average fat poison who has been working out with subpar results. You won't pile on fat as a beginner with a good diet program and a good strength training program. It is very very easy to do this and I have had numerous people follow this advice with great results. You have to look at each person as an individual, a cookie cutter approach to dieting "rules" will never work-- our understanding of nutritional science if far too incomplete.

 

[lifted67]

If you have 0% muscle mass you'd be dead...where did you get your broscience degree from?!

 

[enraged_chris]

Hyperbole man. But I do actually have a degree in biology. By 0% I mean low muscle mass but I assume if you're pointing out that statement you don't actually have a fully fledged response. I'm saying diet is very situational and making blanket statements isn't effective and won't results in optimal progress. If you have very low muscle mass and moderately high body fat (skinny fat, you know the type) bulking first is a better option.

 

[lifted67]

I don't have a fully fledged response because you're insisting you're right and it's pointless to argue with you anymore