Cut or bulk first?

Chrisehyoung

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Just curious on your opinions of this scenario. Say someone is running about 20% body fat and wants to build muscle but lose fat as well. Would you recommend they cut down to their desired BF% first and then add muscle or would you have them add muscle then cut the fat? I know which way I would lean but I'm curious to hear others' opinions.
 
Driven2lift

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At 20% you could still gain muscle while cutting if done right. I would cut first myself
 
Jakethaniel

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Cut first, but the person would have to make a goal and stick with it.
People who usually have that dilemma are very likely to as soon as they start to see some muscle loss during their cut start freaking out and try to go back in the other direction and then they end up being stuck around 15-25% going back and forth.
You can make gains doing that, but I feel like it would be much better to cut down to ~8-10% then slowly reverse diet back up to minimize fat gain. I am not entirely anti-bulking, but I think for natural guys it is best to keep weekly gains in the .5-.7 pounds area, then throw in high surpluses here and there with purpose.
Still talking about after a cut, but yes you can gain slightly more muscle aiming for 1 pound+ a week gains, which I then consider bulking, but you also gain more fat which ends up meaning you will have to cut sooner, giving this person a shorter period to put on muscle.
 
grinnell27

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Cut first.. IMO

If they were at say 15% I might consider a lean bulk... but being very careful.

Its not just looking fat that would bother me, its the extra stress on the body.
 
dbrock504

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I'm in that situation and I'm tired of bulking on ~25%. I'm down to 20.4% and feeling much better. Getting compliments daily. Want to get to ~15% and then asses what I want to do from there. Maybe go maintenance for a little while and try to get to ~10%.
 
grinnell27

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I'm in that situation and I'm tired of bulking on ~25%. I'm down to 20.4% and feeling much better. Getting compliments daily. Want to get to ~15% and then asses what I want to do from there. Maybe go maintenance for a little while and try to get to ~10%.
That's great man, I personally like to take a week off now and then if I diet straight for 8weeks... It helps me recover, get a little stronger as ive got more energy and gives my brain a good break.
 
dbrock504

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That's great man, I personally like to take a week off now and then if I diet straight for 8weeks... It helps me recover, get a little stronger as ive got more energy and gives my brain a good break.
Exactly bud. I'm 8 weeks in right now, and I've had to take a week off because chicken and veggies got old... But I'm back on my grind and down 3 more lbs while increasing strength in the gym. So far so good! 4 more weeks left and then another week break
 
mistermike79

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This is me. I am 22% according to the electronic deal.
I would think you could cut and still look big. And if you take ph then you can cut and keep most of your muscle.
It depends what you want though.
You can go 20-lean in fast time or you could go slow and steady and have it take forever.
Most like immediate results and I was told its best to build on a lean frame.
 
Blergs

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I would rec to cut first personally.
 
hvactech

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It's best to strip away as much fat as possible before trying to add lean mass
 
money0351

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The thing with bulking at a higher bf% is that skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity is far less than that of a leaner individual. So while you could gain weight (obviously) at a higher bf% with a caloric surplus, fat gain could also be higher
 
money0351

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Am I the only one that hates the terms "dirty bulk" and "eating clean"? I feel like iifiym put those terms to bed but I guess not
it's not a matter of clean vs dirty IMO... You could bulk and get pudgy eating only what people would consider "clean" foods. It's all about controlling your surplus and adjusting accordingly. micros and fiber goals should always be hit for general health purposes
 
dbrock504

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Am I the only one that hates the terms "dirty bulk" and "eating clean"? I feel like iifiym put those terms to bed but I guess not
I realize a lot of people on bb.com and even this forum like IIFYM, but I think it's a joke. The "traditional" methods of dieting work best.
 
money0351

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I realize a lot of people on bb.com and even this forum like IIFYM, but I think it's a joke. The "traditional" methods of dieting work best.
image-3600526341.jpg


Shoot dude... I guess I did it wrong the whole time
 
dbrock504

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<img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=115388"/> Shoot dude... I guess I did it wrong the whole time
Apparently you did it right. Good for you man you look freakin amazing. I honestly don't think I really understand iifym, so it's easier for me to eat on "chicken and rice" bodybuilding "traditional" diet. But again you got me there. You look siQQ
 

max d

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it's not a matter of clean vs dirty IMO... You could bulk and get pudgy eating only what people would consider "clean" foods. It's all about controlling your surplus and adjusting accordingly. micros and fiber goals should always be hit for general health purposes
I completly agree!
 
money0351

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Apparently you did it right. Good for you man you look freakin amazing. I honestly don't think I really understand iifym, so it's easier for me to eat on "chicken and rice" bodybuilding "traditional" diet. But again you got me there. You look siQQ
thanks brother, but your previous statement said you think "IIFYM is a joke" and that the traditional chicken and rice diet work the best.

Now do not get me wrong 90% of my meals would be considered "bro meals" consisting of some type of animal protein and some type of vegetables but having the knowledge to make substitutions from time to time will help with diet adherence exponentially

What many people fail to realize is that IIFYM is not eating as much cereal, poptarts, and icecream as possible, but allowing yourself to maybe once every so often instead of eating 100g of carbs from brown rice, eating the caloric equivalent of something you'd consider a treat
 
dbrock504

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thanks brother, but your previous statement said you think "IIFYM is a joke" and that the traditional chicken and rice diet work the best. Now do not get me wrong 90% of my meals would be considered "bro meals" consisting of some type of animal protein and some type of vegetables but having the knowledge to make substitutions from time to time will help with diet adherence exponentially What many people fail to realize is that IIFYM is not eating as much cereal, poptarts, and icecream as possible, but allowing yourself to maybe once every so often instead of eating 100g of carbs from brown rice, eating the caloric equivalent of something you'd consider a treat
But see that's exactly what I think iifym preaches. If it fits your macros. The way it is "perceived" is that you can eat whatever you want as long as of fits within your daily macros. Eating 90% "bro meals" did it for you. Not iifym. Consistency is key. No one said you can't have a cookie once a week. You did what I am currently doing now. Iifym preaches that there is no glycemic index. That there is no macro nutrient different between a 29g carbs chips ahoy cookie and 1 cup brown rice 29g carbs. Again maybe it's because I don't truly understand iifym, but I believe it gives people the wrong impression. It certainly did with me.
 

max d

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But see that's exactly what I think iifym preaches. If it fits your macros. The way it is "perceived" is that you can eat whatever you want as long as of fits within your daily macros. Eating 90% "bro meals" did it for you. Not iifym. Consistency is key. No one said you can't have a cookie once a week. You did what I am currently doing now. Iifym preaches that there is no glycemic index. That there is no macro nutrient different between a 29g carbs chips ahoy cookie and 1 cup brown rice 29g carbs. Again maybe it's because I don't truly understand iifym, but I believe it gives people the wrong impression. It certainly did with me.
Just an FYI, there isn't that big of a difference between low and high glysemic foods. Biggest focus should be put on macros/total cals. This isn't the study I was thinking of but does show that low and high glycemic carbs have a similar result for insulin sensitivity. The study I was looking for shows that it doesn't make a diff between low and high glycemic foods for weight gain/loss.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25514303
 
dbrock504

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Just an FYI, there isn't that big of a difference between low and high glysemic foods. Biggest focus should be put on macros/total cals. This isn't the study I was thinking of but does show that low and high glycemic carbs have a similar result for insulin sensitivity. The study I was looking for shows that it doesn't make a diff between low and high glycemic foods for weight gain/loss. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25514303
and here's my point. Although I know this science, this has to be the creating a huge misunderstanding with a lot of people. I read this years ago and thought, "so I can have Doritos and not rice cakes?" That guy above got that way because he ate super clean and correctly 90% of the time. He didn't do IIFYM. My in-laws both have diabetes type 2 and are both obese by 100 lbs. They eat pizza, ice cream, candy cakes, sodas, junk food, etc 90% of the time. They aren't eating healthy because they choose an apple 10% of the time. Again, it's all about consistency. I stand by my earlier statement. IIFYM is a joke, in my opinion
 

max d

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and here's my point. Although I know this science, this has to be the creating a huge misunderstanding with a lot of people. I read this years ago and thought, "so I can have Doritos and not rice cakes?" That guy above got that way because he ate super clean and correctly 90% of the time. He didn't do IIFYM. My in-laws both have diabetes type 2 and are both obese by 100 lbs. They eat pizza, ice cream, candy cakes, sodas, junk food, etc 90% of the time. They aren't eating healthy because they choose an apple 10% of the time. Again, it's all about consistency. I stand by my earlier statement. IIFYM is a joke, in my opinion
The above study only showed this for healthy individuals. People w diabetes should pay attention to the index. If IIFYM is a joke then how come you are stuck around 20 percent body fat and I'm able to consistantly bulk and cut from 15 to 10 percent using this method. Also on a cut I have to stick to bro foods for satiety purposes since my cals are substantially lower; when bulking there is more room for the fun stuff. This is just advice. Use whatever tools you would like to acheive your goals. Good luck.
 
dbrock504

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The above study only showed this for healthy individuals. People w diabetes should pay attention to the index. If IIFYM is a joke then how come you are stuck around 20 percent body fat and I'm able to consistantly bulk and cut from 15 to 10 percent using this method. Also on a cut I have to stick to bro foods for satiety purposes since my cals are substantially lower; when bulking there is more room for the fun stuff. This is just advice. Use whatever tools you would like to acheive your goals. Good luck.
Honestly, because I'm 23 years old and just started paying detailed attention to nutrition only about 4 months ago (always had a basic idea, but never could consistency apply it). I never had solid grasp of proper nutrition until about 1.5 years ago. (I was into gaining weight and powerlifting and on the see-food diet). Going into college I was 5'7 130 lbs. after I got out of college I was a sloppy 185 ~25% bf. For about 6 months I did the iifym thing for cutting and saw no results dropping bf%. Lost about 20 lbs, but didn't loose any bf. Hired a nutrition coach Jan 1 for this wedding, lost 1 lb, 5.6% bf and he doesn't believe in IIFYM either. Since going through his program, I have adopted his methods and through personal trial and error, also do not believe in IIFYM either. Again, could be because I didn't do it correctly.

When anyone bulks there is more room for "fun stuff". You're in a caloric surplus and inevitably going to gain some bf consequently. How does that correlate to IIFYM at all?

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to argue or be head strong. I'm simply saying that I have read articles after articles on bb.com and am and seen people regurgitate this material on a daily basis and in my personal experience, I don't find this method effective because it can be easily misleading. It's easy to jump on board because you get to eat donuts and still "maintain" your diet. Unfortunately that's just not how things work.

I was shown some 47 yr old Polynesian guy who eats 5 Krispy Kreme donuts every day. Well ok but he also is a fitness model who spends 2 hours in the gym twice a day and also does a lot of other things like fasting to make up for eating like sh*t to "prove" IIFYM works. I just don't buy it. Like you said, this is just advice. Do whatever works for you to achieve your goals.
 
EasyEJL

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a lot depends on whether adding "more muscle" is about strength gains vs size, also depends on what his basic body type really is. And whether the 20% bodyfat is something relatively short term (over the last year) or whether that is his normal bodyfat level. I broke an ankle and tacked on a good bit of fat over not being able to do much that is physical during its early healing period....
 
Chrisehyoung

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thanks brother, but your previous statement said you think "IIFYM is a joke" and that the traditional chicken and rice diet work the best.

Now do not get me wrong 90% of my meals would be considered "bro meals" consisting of some type of animal protein and some type of vegetables but having the knowledge to make substitutions from time to time will help with diet adherence exponentially

What many people fail to realize is that IIFYM is not eating as much cereal, poptarts, and icecream as possible, but allowing yourself to maybe once every so often instead of eating 100g of carbs from brown rice, eating the caloric equivalent of something you'd consider a treat
I think the issue is that a lot of people mistake IIFYM (If It Fits Your Macros) for IIFIYM (If It Fits In Your Mouth).
 

max d

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Honestly, because I'm 23 years old and just started paying detailed attention to nutrition only about 4 months ago (always had a basic idea, but never could consistency apply it). I never had solid grasp of proper nutrition until about 1.5 years ago. (I was into gaining weight and powerlifting and on the see-food diet). Going into college I was 5'7 130 lbs. after I got out of college I was a sloppy 185 ~25% bf. For about 6 months I did the iifym thing for cutting and saw no results dropping bf%. Lost about 20 lbs, but didn't loose any bf. Hired a nutrition coach Jan 1 for this wedding, lost 1 lb, 5.6% bf and he doesn't believe in IIFYM either. Since going through his program, I have adopted his methods and through personal trial and error, also do not believe in IIFYM either. Again, could be because I didn't do it correctly.

When anyone bulks there is more room for "fun stuff". You're in a caloric surplus and inevitably going to gain some bf consequently. How does that correlate to IIFYM at all?

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to argue or be head strong. I'm simply saying that I have read articles after articles on bb.com and am and seen people regurgitate this material on a daily basis and in my personal experience, I don't find this method effective because it can be easily misleading. It's easy to jump on board because you get to eat donuts and still "maintain" your diet. Unfortunately that's just not how things work.

I was shown some 47 yr old Polynesian guy who eats 5 Krispy Kreme donuts every day. Well ok but he also is a fitness model who spends 2 hours in the gym twice a day and also does a lot of other things like fasting to make up for eating like sh*t to "prove" IIFYM works. I just don't buy it. Like you said, this is just advice. Do whatever works for you to achieve your goals.
Yeah its just a tool and you dont have to use it... but the statement that you lost 20lbs on IIFYM and none of it was fat makes no sense. Like Money was alluding to, you cant eat nothing but krispy kreme and still hit optimal macros of P/F/C.
 
money0351

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The above study only showed this for healthy individuals. People w diabetes should pay attention to the index. If IIFYM is a joke then how come you are stuck around 20 percent body fat and I'm able to consistantly bulk and cut from 15 to 10 percent using this method. Also on a cut I have to stick to bro foods for satiety purposes since my cals are substantially lower; when bulking there is more room for the fun stuff. This is just advice. Use whatever tools you would like to acheive your goals. Good luck.
Yeah its just a tool and you dont have to use it... but the statement that you lost 20lbs on IIFYM and none of it was fat makes no sense. Like Money was alluding to, you cant eat nothing but krispy kreme and still hit optimal macros of P/F/C.
I have nothing to gain from trying to convince someone that just because they do not understand the concept of IIFYM, doesn't means the whole idea is crap. Its funny how we can stay relatively lean all year, eating anything in moderation from time to time. To each their own I guess.
 
breezy11

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The issue I often see is that there are a lot of people who claim to follow "IIFYM" that apparently don't understand it either (based on how its being described here)...which is why I hate the term and many people see it negatively. I also believe that needing to put a specific label on how someone eats is stupid.

money's diet actually sounds similar to what I would think when I hear "bro diet".

Here's one example of what I would consider a brotastic nutrition plan:

-Primarily "healthy" foods choices; swapping healthy protein/carb/fat sources if desired. Every meal doesn't have to be the same everyday, but its fine if they are.

-Nutrient timing plays a role in overall plan.

-The option of occasional "free meals" structured into the plan if desired. This is when you replace a meal with a less healthy option, but keep cals/macros similar. These are usually included 0-2 times per week depending on the individual and goals.

-"Cheat meals" are included if/when there is a legitimate reason and most would have a caloric ceiling based on many factors.


On the original topic, I'd recommend getting leaner before trying to add more size.
 
dbrock504

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Yeah its just a tool and you dont have to use it... but the statement that you lost 20lbs on IIFYM and none of it was fat makes no sense. Like Money was alluding to, you cant eat nothing but krispy kreme and still hit optimal macros of P/F/C.
I may have lost a little bf% but I promise it wasn't much. Strength went into the toilet and I felt as if I lost quite a bit of my mass. And that's true you can't eat nothing but Krispy Kreme but I promise if you fill your daily carbs with Doritos vs veggies rice sweet potato there will be a difference in quality of physique. I've lived it
 
dbrock504

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-The option of occasional "free meals" structured into the plan if desired. This is when you replace a meal with a less healthy option, but keep cals/macros similar. These are usually included 0-2 times per week depending on the individual and goals
So eating something 0-2 times per week that isn't in your plan is considered IIFYM? Seems incorrect from my readings. Eating something 4-5 times a week that isn't on your plan will do nothing to detract your results. I eat 6x a day 7 days a week. That's 42 meals. 4 not so great meals is only 9% of my entire weekly intake. Those 4 meals wouldn't matter in the long run.

IIFYM is the idea that you can eat whatever you want as long as you stay within your macronutrient goals. That eating "cleaner" foods in not necessary. Not a couple times a week.

sorry if I'm coming off as difficult.
 
breezy11

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So eating something 0-2 times per week that isn't in your plan is considered IIFYM? Seems incorrect from my readings. Eating something 4-5 times a week that isn't on your plan will do nothing to detract your results. I eat 6x a day 7 days a week. That's 42 meals. 4 not so great meals is only 9% of my entire weekly intake. Those 4 meals wouldn't matter in the long run.

IIFYM is the idea that you can eat whatever you want as long as you stay within your macronutrient goals. That eating "cleaner" foods in not necessary. Not a couple times a week.

sorry if I'm coming off as difficult.
I don't consider it "IIFYM" and never said that I did. Again, why I hate these labels.
 
dbrock504

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I don't consider it "IIFYM" and never said that I did. Again, why I hate these labels.
Ok I'm sorry I was confused. I read it as you thought that's what IIFYM was supposed to be but didn't label it due to misleading people.

I completely agree with your post however.
 
money0351

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The issue I often see is that there are a lot of people who claim to follow "IIFYM" that apparently don't understand it either (based on how its being described here)...which is why I hate the term and many people see it negatively. I also believe that needing to put a specific label on how someone eats is stupid. money's diet actually sounds similar to what I would think when I hear "bro diet". Here's one example of what I would consider a brotastic nutrition plan: -Primarily "healthy" foods choices; swapping healthy protein/carb/fat sources if desired. Every meal doesn't have to be the same everyday, but its fine if they are. -Nutrient timing plays a role in overall plan. -The option of occasional "free meals" structured into the plan if desired. This is when you replace a meal with a less healthy option, but keep cals/macros similar. These are usually included 0-2 times per week depending on the individual and goals. -"Cheat meals" are included if/when there is a legitimate reason and most would have a caloric ceiling based on many factors. On the original topic, I'd recommend getting leaner before trying to add more size.
I'm in no way saying that I eat "clean" 90% of the time and allow myself the weekend binge until I hate myself. I'm talking about I've seen people with plans from coaches that consist of talipia, brown rice, and broccoli 4 times a day and the occasional ISO100 shake inbetween. And God forbid them substitute anyone of these for something of equal macronutrient make-up.

Honestly like I've been gradually increasing total Kcals weekly/ monthly depending on weight gain and it has been treating me well.

I,personally, do not feel the need to label the way I eat, but I fail to see how it could be construed as a bro diet :(
 
EasyEJL

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I'm in no way saying that I eat "clean" 90% of the time and allow myself the weekend binge until I hate myself. I'm talking about I've seen people with plans from coaches that consist of talipia, brown rice, and broccoli 4 times a day and the occasional ISO100 shake inbetween. And God forbid them substitute anyone of these for something of equal macronutrient make-up.
or god forbid they want to double up on the rice at one meal, skip it at another and then do the same with the tilapia.
 
dbrock504

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or god forbid they want to double up on the rice at one meal, skip it at another and then do the same with the tilapia.
Do you actually believe people with coaches eat exactly to the plan and don't improvise? I do it every day! I guess some coaches are just not for me. I do what you guys are saying. And none of you are actually doing IIFYM to its point.
 
breezy11

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I'm in no way saying that I eat "clean" 90% of the time and allow myself the weekend binge until I hate myself. I'm talking about I've seen people with plans from coaches that consist of talipia, brown rice, and broccoli 4 times a day and the occasional ISO100 shake inbetween. And God forbid them substitute anyone of these for something of equal macronutrient make-up.

Honestly like I've been gradually increasing total Kcals weekly/ monthly depending on weight gain and it has been treating me well.

I,personally, do not feel the need to label the way I eat, but I fail to see how it could be construed as a bro diet :(
I wouldn't think that's what you do at all man. I was just mentioning that I've seen a lot of people in general who take the IIFYM acronym to heart and go a little overboard with what they fit in their macros daily. There are also plenty of people who use flexible dieting as it should be (like yourself), which is why I'm not a fan of the broad IIFYM label.

How you approach your nutrition seems solid and your progress speaks for itself.

I didn't mean to upset you with the word "bro" (that's what you called 90% of your meals). I was just trying to show that what one considers "IIFYM" or "bro" can vary quite a bit. When I hear nutrition labeled as "bro", I just think of a diet based mainly on healthy options. It wouldn't have to mean eating the same 3 food items 4 times daily like the horrible diet you mentioned lol. There are good and bad diets, no matter what label people want to stick on them.
 
money0351

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I wouldn't think that's what you do at all man. I was just mentioning that I've seen a lot of people in general who take the IIFYM acronym to heart and go a little overboard with what they fit in their macros daily. There are also plenty of people who use flexible dieting as it should be (like yourself), which is why I'm not a fan of the broad IIFYM label. How you approach your nutrition seems solid and your progress speaks for itself. I didn't mean to upset you with the word "bro" (that's what you called 90% of your meals). I was just trying to show that what one considers "IIFYM" or "bro" can vary quite a bit. When I hear nutrition labeled as "bro", I just think of a diet based mainly on healthy options. It wouldn't have to mean eating the same 3 food items 4 times daily like the horrible diet you mentioned lol. There are good and bad diets, no matter what label people want to stick on them.
there was no offense taken. Maybe my use of a frowny was out of line haha. But I was just looking to pick you brain a bit because you are definitely one of the most knowledgeable members on the boards.

Sorry to derail the thread anymore OP ;)
 
hvactech

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Because it fits my macros

ForumRunner_20150304_222344.png
 
Piston Honda

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Because it fits my macros <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=115499"/>
Nice "cheat meal" ... Blah blah blah ice cream, blah blah blah brownies, blah blah blah pizza

Oh wait, wrong thread
 

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I just made a shake to end the night and hit the rest of my macros: whey to hit my protein, 68g ice cream and tbl spoon pb for fat, and 1/3 cup of pancake mix for carbs. All while maintaing 10 percent body fat on a bulk. Cals in vs cals out and hitting my macros (175g P/90g F/300g C)
 
hvactech

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I just made a shake to end the night and hit the rest of my macros: whey to hit my protein, 68g ice cream and tbl spoon pb for fat, and 1/3 cup of pancake mix for carbs. All while maintaing 10 percent body fat on a bulk. Cals in vs cals out and hitting my macros (175g P/90g F/300g C)
Boom!
I calorie and carb loaded today... I look forward to this day all week
 
Chrisehyoung

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I hit Marble Slab for some loaded ice cream yesterday for my calorie load day. Man how I miss ice cream. Makes it hard to wait for cheat or reload days.
 
The_Old_Guy

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I think IIFYM has been perceived the same way "Atkins" was = eat whatever you want! Unfortunately, no one told the Atkins people that you still needed to be in a deficit. I agree that the perception of IIFYM got twisted. I see it as it was probably meant to: "I don't feel like a Caramel Rice Cake with Smuckers Natural Peanut Butter tonight, think I'll have a cup and a half of Ice Cream instead".
 

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I think IIFYM has been perceived the same way "Atkins" was = eat whatever you want! Unfortunately, no one told the Atkins people that you still needed to be in a deficit. I agree that the perception of IIFYM got twisted. I see it as it was probably meant to: "I don't feel like a Caramel Rice Cake with Smuckers Natural Peanut Butter tonight, think I'll have a cup and a half of Ice Cream instead".
This sooo sooo much.
 
Jakethaniel

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I think IIFYM has been perceived the same way "Atkins" was = eat whatever you want! Unfortunately, no one told the Atkins people that you still needed to be in a deficit. I agree that the perception of IIFYM got twisted. I see it as it was probably meant to: "I don't feel like a Caramel Rice Cake with Smuckers Natural Peanut Butter tonight, think I'll have a cup and a half of Ice Cream instead".
If someone is doing it correctly their macros should go along with their goal. As in, your macros are calculated using total calories for that day. So if someone has their macros setup so that it always puts them in a surplus and they are trying to use IIFYM to lose fat, they are doing it entirely wrong and do not understand how IIFYM works, let alone how dieting works.
If ice cream can fit into your macros, go for it, but the entire point of the diet is that it has to fit. For IIFYM to work, the macros have to be tracked and calories have to be geared towards your goal.
 

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