Too much protein?

[Jeff5886]

I am 202 and 11% BF. I'm eating about 2800 cals per day. My question is, can too much protein hinder my fat loss? I am on CKD and have protein between 215-260 everyday. I like the idea of 1-1.5 grams per day and I've noticed since I've been breaking the 1 gram per pound threshold, I'm much harder and dryer. Should I limit this number? I mean I can easily go higher and eat more cottege cheese and meat but will this hurt my fat loss?

Jeff

 

[RegisterJr]

I've never seen that to be the case. I'd be more concerned more with carbs or total calories pertaining to limiting fat loss than I would protein.

 

[Jeff5886]

Carbs are only what's residual in protein powders ect. I am on CKD so virtually no carbs. That's is

 

[RegisterJr]

What is CKD?

 

[breezy11]

I am 202 and 11% BF. I'm eating about 2800 cals per day. My question is, can too much protein hinder my fat loss? I am on CKD and have protein between 215-260 everyday. I like the idea of 1-1.5 grams per day and I've noticed since I've been breaking the 1 gram per pound threshold, I'm much harder and dryer. Should I limit this number? I mean I can easily go higher and eat more cottege cheese and meat but will this hurt my fat loss?

Jeff

The protein won't hurt your fatloss, as long as you remain in a caloric deficit. If you increase it to the extent that you're no longer burning more calories than you consume, weight loss will stop. 1-1.5g/lb of bodyweight is fine, just make sure you're still in a deficit when carbs and fats added to the equation.

 

[breezy11]

What is CKD?

Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

 

[RegisterJr]

Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

Thanks. A google search said something different.

 

[breezy11]

Thanks. A google search said something different.

No problem bud.

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

Carbs are only what's residual in protein powders ect. I am on CKD so virtually no carbs. That's is

you will want to keep youre macros at 30% protein 65% fat and trace carbs for optimal fatloss.
for a CKD you are far to high to stay within that percentage bracket while remaining at a deficit intake of cals. keep in mind there is supporting data that the human body can hold its mass and possibly even allow you to build muscle as low as .85g per (Kg) of body weight. while you are on the routine carb ups you can easily adjust your macros to fit your 1-1.5g per (lb) of bodyweight. what diet are you following ?

 

[kevinhy]

Tons and tons and tons of misinformation in this thread.

Eating too much protein will not hinder your cut, its beneficial for NUMEROUS reasons. Increased satiety (eat 200cals of lean meat vs carbs, which one filled you up more), its the most thermogenic of macros, its muscle sparing, etc, etc. When I diet i eat at least 50% of my calories as protein, simply because I cant get full with any less in my diet on lowered calories.

Keep the protein up OP, I diet on more protein than that and I hit low single digits every time (with minimal muscle loss).

 

[malik2630]

I'd be more concerned more with carbs or total calories pertaining to limiting fat loss than I would protein.

 

[Jeff5886]

Just an update. I dropped protein down from 1.5g to 1 gram per pound and have leaned out significantly.

 

[EasyEJL]

yeah, protein taken in sufficient quantity at one meal can cause a fairly strong insulin reaction, booting you out of a ketogenic state. Of course not nearly as strong a reaction as carbs, but a lot more than fats.

 

[jaces]

If you are on a keto diet they recomend 20% carbs 30% prot and 50%fat to kep you in ketogenesis,, but for me I dont go below 1.5 g per pound when cuting ,, and stick to 2-2.5 g per pound when bulking

 

[jaces]

Whether it be protein, carbs, or fat, if you have an extreme surplus of any macro, it will be stored as fat. That said, while training, you should easily be able to handle 1 g per lb. of body weight. What's important is the timing. Spread out protein consumption throughout the day (more than 50 g at a time is difficult for the body to process), and more in proximity to training time.

Just rember the thermo effect of the macro nutrient

 

[Driven2lift]

definitely. 40 g of protein isn't going to metabolize or effect insulin the same way that 40 grams of carbs will (or fat).

It will actually, a lean protein source will illicit an insulin response as great or greater than many carb sources

 

[jaces]

definitely. 40 g of protein isn't going to metabolize or effect insulin the same way that 40 grams of carbs will (or fat).

Yes , and protein is harder to breakdown bcuz its a complex chain of aminos , thus the body actualy uses energy when you eat protein ,,

 

[scherbs]

Not to dispute the fact that protein is 'harder to breakdown' than other macros, but technically all macros have a thermic effect (i.e. the body "actually uses energy when you eat" them)

 

[jaces]

Not to dispute the fact that protein is 'harder to breakdown' than other macros, but technically all macros have a thermic effect (i.e. the body "actually uses energy when you eat" them)

True but protein has the highest and fats have almos. Nthing

 

[JackBox]

I've never seen that to be the case. I'd be more concerned more with carbs or total calories pertaining to limiting fat loss than I would protein.

I second this. but keep in mind that too much of any macro, including protein, leads to increase in adipose tissue (fat) due to the necessary storage of excess energy.

 

[JudoJosh]

Tons and tons and tons of misinformation in this thread.

Eating too much protein will not hinder your cut, its beneficial for NUMEROUS reasons. Increased satiety (eat 200cals of lean meat vs carbs, which one filled you up more), its the most thermogenic of macros, its muscle sparing, etc, etc. When I diet i eat at least 50% of my calories as protein, simply because I cant get full with any less in my diet on lowered calories.

Keep the protein up OP, I diet on more protein than that and I hit low single digits every time (with minimal muscle loss).

This x10

It is highly unlikely excess protein will be stored as fat.

 

[bioboy88]

Just like JudoJosh, I've never heard that there's such thing as too much protein. At least, there's no evidence easily accessible on the web that it can be dangerous.

 

[jaces]

More than 2g/pound is a waste and for most its too expensive

 

[JudoJosh]

Just like JudoJosh, I've never heard that there's such thing as too much protein. At least, there's no evidence easily accessible on the web that it can be dangerous.

To be clear, this is not what I said. Too much is possible and it can cause medical problems in some populations. What I said is the chance of weight gain from extra protein is unlikely

 

[jaces]

To be clear, this is not what I said. Too much is possible and it can cause medical problems in some populations. What I said is the chance of weight gain from extra protein is unlikely

I think what you also meant is if you have a a little cals to spare its beter to fill them with protein than carbs or fats if fat gain is a problem

 

[EasyEJL]

Just like JudoJosh, I've never heard that there's such thing as too much protein. At least, there's no evidence easily accessible on the web that it can be dangerous.

right but with the question being about ketosis, too much protein can kick you out. Is that meaningful in terms of fat gains/losses? I don't believe so, but if you are concerned with staying in ketosis you need to watch how many calories come from protein vs fats.

 

[bigmacdaddy18]

Keep your protein consistent each day for a couple of weeks. If your not getting tighter, drop the carbs but not the calories. Increase the protein to make up for the carb/calorie drop. To get below 11% you have to look at sodium also….just my opinion. When I drop eggs and replace with chicken or even beef, I get leaner faster. Sodium holds water.

 

[DirtyWilly]

Proteins convert to carbs and ultimately fat very readily through glycogenesis! You're not going to see a study by ON or the dairy association that says to eat less protein. This is why this bullchit has been perpetuated for the past 30 years. If you eat to many proteins you WILL get fat.

Try this as an experiment... Take in twice the protein you're taking now just for a few days and don't eat any carbs... After you get very gassy, please explain to me how this can happen "while in ketosis", because gas only comes from carbs.

 

[Jiigzz]

Proteins convert to carbs and ultimately fat very readily through glycogenesis! You're not going to see a study by ON or the dairy association that says to eat less protein. This is why this bullchit has been perpetuated for the past 30 years. If you eat to many proteins you WILL get fat.

Try this as an experiment... Take in twice the protein you're taking now just for a few days and don't eat any carbs... After you get very gassy, please explain to me how this can happen "while in ketosis", because gas only comes from carbs.

Protein does not convert to fat readily AT ALL.

 

[MARK_]

I have never read that proteins convert to carbs and then fat. Is there any solid research articles on this? I have been under the impression that too much protein gets removed as waste. Any suggested reading would be appreciated.

 

[Jiigzz]

I have never read that proteins convert to carbs and then fat. Is there any solid research articles on this? I have been under the impression that too much protein gets removed as waste. Any suggested reading would be appreciated.

I will dig up more, but this is useful - http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-3-25.pdf

 

[EasyEJL]

Try this as an experiment... Take in twice the protein you're taking now just for a few days and don't eat any carbs... After you get very gassy, please explain to me how this can happen "while in ketosis", because gas only comes from carbs.

where did the "gas only comes from carbs" nonsense come from? have you never had egg farts before? gas comes from bacterial activity in your intestines, which can grow in protein or carbs

 

[DirtyWilly]

Protein does not convert to fat readily AT ALL.

Didn't have to dig any further than about.com...

http://biology.about.com/library/organs/bldigestliver5.htm

"The liver is the major site for converting excess carbohydrates and proteins into fatty acids and triglyceride, which are then exported and stored in adipose tissue."

 

[MARK_]

I will dig up more, but this is useful - http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-3-25.pdf

Very interesting read there. I appreciate the information

 

[Jiigzz]

Didn't have to dig any further than about.com...

http://biology.about.com/library/organs/bldigestliver5.htm

You misunderstand. I'm well aware of the process, but that site does not go into depth at all on the energy cost of undertaking such a process or how often it occurs under normal dietary conditions.

If one is in calorie deficit or maintenance, then protein in excess of daily needs will not be converted to fat, period. As protein needs rise, oxidation rates increase. Moreover, any that do exceed requirements will likely be converted into glucose or ketones for use as energy. In energy intake then exceeds needs, then the process of fat storage may begin, but only after all other factors have been fulfilled. For most people, the likelihood of getting fat off protein is minimal.

 

[DirtyWilly]

Gotcha. I think we're both coming at this from different angles. I agree, if you're at maintenance or good with your macros it's not going to fat. If you do like I've mistakenly done in the past is taken too much protein day after day you'll see a little extra love in the love handles.

 

[Rodja]

Gotcha. I think we're both coming at this from different angles. I agree, if you're at maintenance or good with your macros it's not going to fat. If you do like I've mistakenly done in the past is taken too much protein day after day you'll see a little extra love in the love handles.

To pinpoint that to just protein is erroneous; that's from an overconsumption of calories period. Of the three macros, protein is the least likely to be stored due to the TEF and the aforementioned long process of protein to glucose to storage.

 

[RecompMan]

Protein does not convert to fat readily AT ALL.

and carbs very little to de novo lipogenesis

Just throwing it out there

 

[DirtyWilly]

To pinpoint that to just protein is erroneous; that's from an overconsumption of calories period. Of the three macros, protein is the least likely to be stored due to the TEF and the aforementioned long process of protein to glucose to storage.

There could be some exceptions to that, just from personal experience. I've done 72g of protein 6 meals a day, nothing else for weeks, aside from the 1g of sugar/1g of fat in the Whey per meal and gained fat. No signs of being in Ketosis. No runs, bad gas, no bad breath...

Now compared to 30-40g of fat 6 meals a day, which I've also done via oil. I've lost tremendous weight! Cals and low activity level were about the same. I think the glycogen stores in your liver play a crucial role in what goes where and why from your macros. Otherwise eating the same amount of cals in pizza a day would deliver the same results and I just don't believe that to be true.

 

[Jiigzz]

There could be some exceptions to that, just from personal experience. I've done 72g of protein 6 meals a day, nothing else for weeks, aside from the 1g of sugar/1g of fat in the Whey per meal and gained fat. No signs of being in Ketosis. No runs, bad gas, no bad breath...

Now compared to 30-40g of fat 6 meals a day, which I've also done via oil. I've lost tremendous weight! Cals and low activity level were about the same. I think the glycogen stores in your liver play a crucial role in what goes where and why from your macros. Otherwise eating the same amount of cals in pizza a day would deliver the same results and I just don't believe that to be true.

You were eating ~500 * 4 = 2000kcal from protein alone and got fat?

 

[DirtyWilly]

You were eating ~500 * 4 = 2000kcal from protein alone and got fat?

My activity level at the time was lazy IT guy feet on the desk low, with light evening maintenance lifting. Same regimen with the oil. I was taking 3 scoops of ON Whey, which is closer to 120 cals, so 2200 with change. I might have lost a pound in that 3 week time period, if that, but my stomach was noticeably growing. I'm 5'9", was upper 20's then, could bench my own weight for 10, was around 230 if I recall?

Back to the gas gauge...lol. The gas was out of control on that much protein, and it shouldn't be. Where as on the oil it was all runs, wouldn't even have dared to pass gas even if I thought I could.

 

[Rodja]

You were only eating protein or fat during these periods?

 

[DirtyWilly]

You were only eating protein or fat during these periods?

Happy Thanksgiving. I was 100%, or as close to it, trying to eat all protein while on a high protein diet for 3 weeks. Same with the high fat diet, I was trying to eat 100% fat for 3 weeks.

All protein diet didn't deliver the results I would have expected and didn't seem conducive to keto. Wasn't that hard to follow, but I felt like I was spinning my wheels. All fat diet was the strongest keto I've been in and I lost weight like someone on a starvation diet. It was difficult to follow.

I pretty much follow the Anabolic diet now, have for years, but I find I've been plateauing lately.

 

[DirtyWilly]

Here's an interesting study. It was discovered unintentionally, but shows that macros play a major role even in same kcal diets.

 

[Jiigzz]

Do you have a link to the FT for that study?

Without seeing a FT I can tell you that Glycogen stores and reduce water retention will account for most of the weight loss differences, given other data examining bf%. Most studies that compare macronutrient differences that take into account total weight loss and body fat measurements come to the conclusion that:

The results of this study showed that it was energy intake, not nutrient composition, that determined weight loss in response to low-energy diets over a short time period.

Reduced-calorie diets result in clinically meaningful weight loss regardless of which macronutrients they emphasize.

After three months, no significant differences were found between the groups in total or low-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations. The increase in high-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations and the decrease in triglyceride concentrations were greater among subjects on the low-carbohydrate diet than among those on the conventional diet throughout most of the study. Both diets significantly decreased diastolic blood pressure and the insulin response to an oral glucose load.

Neither diet offered a significant advantage when comparing weight loss or other, metabolic parameters over a 12 w period. However, considering the greater improvement of fasting blood insulin, the glucose/insulin ratio and blood triglyceride, the low carbohydrate diet (25%) could be more favourable in the long-term.

Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight lost. This finding should be interpreted with caution, given the small magnitude of overall and between-group differences in weight loss in these markedly obese subjects and the short duration of the study.

1) http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=717452
2) http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/63/2/174.short
3) http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/81/6/1298.short
4) http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=196351
5) http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jc.2002-021480
6) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673604169869
7) http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa0804748

There is a VAST number of studies that disprove your hypothesis.

 

[JudoJosh]

Gotcha. I think we're both coming at this from different angles. I agree, if you're at maintenance or good with your macros it's not going to fat. If you do like I've mistakenly done in the past is taken too much protein day after day you'll see a little extra love in the love handles.

The literature simply doesn't support this. Additional protein is not likely going to lead to any substantial weight gain

 

[DirtyWilly]

The literature simply doesn't support this. Additional protein is not likely going to lead to any substantial weight gain

I feel like we're going in circles here...

"Since the body does not store protein, the overconsumption of protein can result in the excess amount to be converted into fat and stored as adipose tissue."

Advances in Food Biochemistry 2009

I highly recommend "The Anabolic Diet" by Dr. Mauro DiPasquale. This is nothing new, it's an older book, but there are PDF's available online. He's got an updated one, but it's an outstanding, easy to follow read for anyone interested. Here's a good summary link.
http://stronglifts.com/anabolic-diet-101-the-definite-anabolic-diet-guide/

As for studies, the medical community is still coming around to VLCKD (very low carb ketogenic diet).
http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20140901/low-carb-beats-low-fat-for-weight-loss-heart-health-study

 

[frankz2]

The point they're making is not that it's impossible, but that the mechanism of conversion from protein to storable fat is extremely inefficient and thus, unlikely to occur in appreciable amounts.

As for that webMD page, did you read the article or just the title? Not a single conclusion of any validity could be drawn from any of the "studies" discussed in there and they spent a good majority explaining problems with the research. Next time, cite studies. Not WebMD. Compare your sources to Jigzz's (apologize if misspelled, can't see name when typing reply on mobile).

 

[JudoJosh]

I feel like we're going in circles here...


Advances in Food Biochemistry 2009

I highly recommend "The Anabolic Diet" by Dr. Mauro DiPasquale. This is nothing new, it's an older book, but there are PDF's available online. He's got an updated one, but it's an outstanding, easy to follow read for anyone interested. Here's a good summary link.
http://stronglifts.com/anabolic-diet-101-the-definite-anabolic-diet-guide/

As for studies, the medical community is still coming around to VLCKD (very low carb ketogenic diet).
http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20140901/low-carb-beats-low-fat-for-weight-loss-heart-health-study

I am very familiar with DiPasquale books as well as books by McDonald, Duchaine & Zumpano. and when I said "the literature" I wasn't referring to their books. i was referencing scientific literature. Read Antonio et al, latest paper.

 

[Jiigzz]

The main issue I see here is that you are seeing "overconsumption of (insert macronutrient here)" as being a cause for fat gain. Unfortunately this has zero context and does not define what is "overconsumption".