Food intake after late cardio

[double s]

Looking for some guidance/wisdom.

Currently doing fasted cardio in the morning but plan on doing it also at night. For those that do strictly cardio at night......

What are you refueling with? Don't want any heavy carbs, perhaps a BCAA drink or Protein shake with some PB??

Thoughts?

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

sounds good man. but complex carbs will make you feel fuller. maybe this would be a great time for a 1/2 serving of mass gains.

 

[double s]

sounds good man. but complex carbs will make you feel fuller. maybe this would be a great time for a 1/2 serving of mass gains.

Thank you but currently looking to cut.

 

[Montego1]

I do night cardio fasted and just follow it with a serving of BCAA before sleep.

 

[Gutterpump]

Yeah if you're cutting, don't eat at night before bed at all, especially after cardio. BCAA's or EAA's. Protein shake at max. I wouldn't add peanut butter.

The only time I'll have a protein shake before bed while cutting is if I'm below my protein target for the day.

 

[veaderko]

I do fasted in the morning followed with a workout 1-2 hrs later. Late night cardio when I am in contest prep. Each and every time after cardio or workout I use Isotean. During I have BCAA I drink. Nothing crazy or to shabby.

But eating before bed on a cut isnt a bad thing at all either. Plenty of times I will still have a full meal after I get home from cardio. All depends on if I managed to get all my meals in that day or not.

 

[AntM1564]

Yeah if you're cutting, don't eat at night before bed at all, especially after cardio. BCAA's or EAA's. Protein shake at max. I wouldn't add peanut butter.

The only time I'll have a protein shake before bed while cutting is if I'm below my protein target for the day.

'

One can eat pre bed bulking or cutting...

What kind of cardio are you doing OP? I do fasted HIIT cardio once or twice a week. I follow it with a meal containing carbs. If you're just doing LISS or MISS, I would just go with any protein source. Whole food or shake and whatever else you like.

 

[Gutterpump]

'

One can eat pre bed bulking or cutting...

Yes, you could do anything you want. But it's not optimal for many reasons. Carbs before bed especially.

 

[AntM1564]

Yes, you could do anything you want. But it's not optimal for many reasons. Carbs before bed especially.

What are the many reasons that do not make it optimal?

 

[bolt10]

Yes, you could do anything you want. But it's not optimal for many reasons. Carbs before bed especially.

'

One can eat pre bed bulking or cutting...

What kind of cardio are you doing OP? I do fasted HIIT cardio once or twice a week. I follow it with a meal containing carbs. If you're just doing LISS or MISS, I would just go with any protein source. Whole food or shake and whatever else you like.

What are the many reasons that do not make it optimal?

 

[Gutterpump]

What are the many reasons that do not make it optimal?

1) Carbs can stop you from falling asleep at night, interfere with good night's sleep
2) insulin blunts GH pulse, GH pulses at night
3) calories do not get burned while you are sleeping, minimally at best
4) Lipolysis does not occur with insulin floating around

If you absolutely must have carbs, and looking at your weight, I'd say you do (and have no need to cut), then have very simple carbs immediately post workout/cardio. along with protein. I am being very to the point here. Not trying to give opinions or argue.

 

[Montego1]

There is all kinds of wrong in this thread.

 

[Gutterpump]

Too many noobs giving advice. People need to research

 

[Montego1]

Carbs before bed won't make you fat.

You burn about .4 calories per lb of body weight per hour while sleeping. Not taking into account the possibility of digestion increasing that rate.

Insulin spikes before sleep are actually very beneficial in some instances.

I will agree that for the op, bcaa before sleep would probably work best.

There is simply no cut and dry way to diet. A million different ways to skin a cat.

 

[Gutterpump]

Nobody said carbs before bed will make you fat actually... Don't see that statement here at all.

But come on.... he's cutting.... does it make sense to eat carbs before bed when you're cutting? Uh, no.. for all the reasons I posted, all backed up by science. Like the real science, not bro science.

 

[AntM1564]

1) Carbs can stop you from falling asleep at night, interfere with good night's sleep

That is highly individual and an opinion. Some people can watch TV before bed and sleep perfectly, others have to turn their TV off well before they go to bed to get a good night's rest.

2) insulin blunts GH pulse, GH pulses at night

Read the abstracts
Implications of growth hormone release in sleep
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

3) calories do not get burned while you are sleeping, minimally at best

Sleeping metabolic rate is not much different from resting metabolic rate in people who exercise. And there is greater fat oxidation at night in people who exercise. So, calories are still getting burned around or at the same rate as a person in rest.

Bodybuilding.com - Carbs At Night: Fat Loss Killer Or Imaginary Boogeyman?

"Interestingly, at the very least it does not appear that the average overall energy expenditure during sleep is any different than resting metabolic rate (RMR) during the day.2,3 Additionally, it appears that exercise increases sleeping metabolic rate significantly, leading to greater fat oxidation during sleep.4 This seems to be in line with data from Zhang et al. which demonstrated that obese individuals had sleeping metabolic rates lower than their resting metabolic rates, whereas lean individuals had sleeping metabolic rates significantly greater than their resting metabolic rate.3 So unless you are obese, not only does your metabolism not slow down during sleep, it actually increases!"

4) Lipolysis does not occur with insulin floating around

Give this a read

Insulin…an Undeserved Bad Reputation » Weightology Weekly

And here is some other reading.

Carbs at Night

Greater weight loss and hormonal cha... [Obesity (Silver Spring). 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

Carbohydrates Past 6PM Will Make You ... Lean! Eating All Carbs in the Evening Increases Body Fat Loss by 28% Compared to Standard Low-Calorie Diet. - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

Is Late Night Eating Better for Fat Loss and Health? | Intermittent fasting diet for fat loss, muscle gain and health

BB Roundtable: Will Brink, Jamie Hale, Layne Norton, Alan Aragon - Bodybuilding.com Forums

J Beaty: What are the most ignorant dietary theories and philosophies out there that are still incorporated by the bb population?


L Norton: 1. Don't eat carbohydrates after 'X' o'clock. People believe that since they are closer to sleeping they should curtail carbohydrate intake, this is simply ludicrous. Carbohydrates at night don't make you fat; too many total calories make you fat. Additionally, if you train at night you NEED those carbohydrates to
properly recover.

If you absolutely must have carbs, and looking at your weight, I'd say you do (and have no need to cut), then have very simple carbs immediately post workout/cardio. along with protein. I am being very to the point here. Not trying to give opinions or argue.

Give the stuff in bold a read. No need for personal attacks either.

 

[Montego1]

Nobody said carbs before bed will make you fat actually... Don't see that statement here at all.

But come on.... he's cutting.... does it make sense to eat carbs before bed when you're cutting? Uh, no.. for all the reasons I posted, all backed up by science.

Heard of carb back loading? Should read up on it.

 

[AntM1564]

Heard of carb back loading? Should read up on it.

Was just about to post on backloading too lol

 

[Montego1]

Nobody said carbs before bed will make you fat actually... Don't see that statement here at all.

But come on.... he's cutting.... does it make sense to eat carbs before bed when you're cutting? Uh, no.. for all the reasons I posted, all backed up by science. Like the real science, not bro science.

Also I'm cutting and have a large carb refeed twice a week before bed. Wake up the same weight as the day before or slightly less most instances. That counts as science if you ask me.

Anyways. Double s I think BCAA after your cardio would work best IMO. Until you get rather low in bf or are extremely depleted I would save the carbs for peri workout.

 

[AntM1564]

I'll ask again since the question was in my original post, but will probably be overlooked. What kind of cardio are you doing double s? Depending on the kind of cardio you're doing, I might take a different strategy.

 

[Gutterpump]

AntM1564 - I appreciate all your links, but to keep things simple - cutting & lipolysis is 110% about manipulating your insulin levels. Most everyone who has experience knows this. As I said, simple (not complex carbs) are fine after a training session at night. Definitely not required after cardio.

My statement about your weight wasn't a personal attack at your build. It was a comment about your experience. I doubt you have ever needed to cut, and I doubt you have had much practical experience with cutting.

 

[Gutterpump]

Also I'm cutting and have a large carb refeed twice a week before bed. Wake up the same weight as the day before or slightly less most instances. That counts as science if you ask me.

I am assuming you are refeeding with simple carbs before bed, because complex carbs before sleep still does not make any sense to me. I also refeed, but keep it to simple carbs and use glucose disposal agents / nutrient partitioners when doing so.

 

[Montego1]

I am assuming you are refeeding with simple carbs before bed, because complex carbs before sleep still does not make any sense to me. I also refeed, but keep it to simple carbs and use glucose disposal agents / nutrient partitioners when doing so.

No I refeed with complex carbs.

 

[juniorab]

AntM1564 - I appreciate all your links, but to keep things simple - cutting & lipolysis is 110% about manipulating your insulin levels. Most everyone who has experience knows this. As I said, simple (not complex carbs) are fine after a training session at night. Definitely not required after cardio.

My statement about your weight wasn't a personal attack at your build. It was a comment about your experience. I doubt you have ever needed to cut, and I doubt you have had much practical experience with cutting.

Incorrect. How do I know this? Well, I have been a diabetic for the past 30 years, a personal trainer and competitive all natural bodybuilder the past 18 years, and a 3 time champion, winning every show I've ever entered. Each show I've won, I have had completely different insulin levels throughout my cut and have leaned out the same every time. Don't believe every "scientific" study you read, cause there is a 95% chance that there is another "scientific" study out there that can prove the complete opposite. Scientific studies can be easily manipulated to prove any point that the researcher wants to show. Sometimes real life results found from trial and error are the best studies to follow.

 

[Gutterpump]

I'm definitely learning that from this thread. Seems like everyone has their own way about things that works for them. I've always been trained to think, and have always read that you can't lose weight (at least not optimally) when insulin levels are constantly being elevated, when your 'storage signal' is constantly being turned on. I know personally speaking, CKD's work amazingly well for me.

 

[Gutterpump]

I find it very interesting that many people in this thread pay no mind to nutrient timing / partitioning. I still strongly believe that nutrient timing is key to anyone's goals, no matter if it's cutting / lean bulking / recomping, etc.

For the best possible results, nutrient timing is key.

Huge props to you juniorab for doing what you've done while also being diabetic. The work involved is huge. Massive respect.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

ITT - ppl mistake bro science for science, and then skew the understanding of science to begin with...

I'm definitely learning that from this thread. Seems like everyone has their own way about things that works for them. I've always been trained to think, and have always read that you can't lose weight (at least not optimally) when insulin levels are constantly being elevated, when your 'storage signal' is constantly being turned on. I know personally speaking, CKD's work amazingly well for me.

in the broadest sense of discussion, yes boldened is correct
but then you bastardize the generality by saying complex carbs are not optimal for a re-feed before bed? and you think simple in place of complex is preferable?? do you understand why a periodic re-feed is done to begin with, and in what context montego performs this?
somewhere, the train went off the rails

I am glad to see this thread may be an eye opener for you
best

 

[snagencyV2.0]

Anyways. Double s I think BCAA after your cardio would work best IMO. Until you get rather low in bf or are extremely depleted I would save the carbs for peri workout.

this

 

[Gutterpump]

ITT - ppl mistake bro science for science, and then skew the understanding of science to begin with...

in the broadest sense of discussion, yes boldened is correct
but then you bastardize the generality by saying complex carbs are not optimal for a re-feed before bed? and you think simple in place of complex is preferable??
somewhere, the train went off the rails

I am glad to see this thread may be an eye opener for you
best

I should've explained myself more when I said that. What I wrote will make perfect sense:

I train at night. When I am cutting/recomping, I generally do a fullbody routine 3x per week. I utilize a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet when recomping/cutting.

On Friday night (3rd training session of the week aka my 'depletion' workout), I refeed with simple carbs taken alongside nutrient partitioning agents like Glycobol / NA-RALA, etc. You WANT to take simple carbs post workout, anytime. So this is what I do to START the refeed process. My refeed lasts until Saturday night / Sunday morning. I will eat complex carbs and protein during that time. But yes, I begin my refeed, post workout, with simple carbs. This is normal and optimal. There is no train going off the rails. There is no bro science here, bro

 

[snagencyV2.0]

I should've explained myself more when I said that. What I wrote will make perfect sense:

I train at night. When I am cutting/recomping, I generally do a fullbody routine 3x per week. I utliize a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet when recomping/cutting.

On Friday night (3rd training session of the week aka my 'depletion' workout), I refeed with simple carbs taken alongside nutrient partitioning agents like Glycobol / NA-RALA, etc. You WANT to take simple carbs post workout, anytime. So this is what I do to START the refeed process. My refeed lasts until Saturday night / Sunday morning. I will eat complex carbs and protein during that time. But yes, I begin my refeed, post workout, with simple carbs. This is normal and optimal. There is no train going off the rails.

your practice of taking a nutrient partitioner is not as useful as you think in this instance, and in fact may hinder your goals and the process which you are trying to employ..

you are also making no distinction between your weight training, and the cardio only OP is employing prior to bed..

lastly: the idea of "you WANT to take in simple carbs postworkout, anytime" is quite flawed, and bro-scientific in itself
yes when i train earlier in the day, i will typically have some fast-digesting carbs postWO, inc dextrose more often than not..
but not ALL the time, ANYTIME as you say -- for example when i am prepping for a bodybuilding show, or trying to get to my absolute leanest, i will cease ingestion of any simple carbs postWO timeframe (such as is the case with montego)

the re-feed in this instance, will last only one meal, and be performed 2x per week -- not a 24+ time period such as you speak of for yourself..
so yes, the train did go off the tracks for you, somewhere..if you think everyone should aspire to your own personal understanding of things, it has gone off the rail very much indeed

now we are getting into preferences and protocols, not science
they are two totally separate discussions

 

[Gutterpump]

Hey, it works for me and hundreds if not thousands of other people who follow the exact same CKD protocol. The glycogen replenishment post depletion workout is quite noticeable, even more so when I take it with a nutrient partitioner. I and many others have followed the same protocol, slamming down simple carbs alongside yellow gold / na-rala etc with that first refeed. The supra-glycogen replenishment effect is pretty massive, huge skin bursting pump, while keeping very dry. I take it you're not a fan of this protocol, which is why you are basically bashing something which is so effective. I would not do it time and time again if it simply did not work better than anything I have ever tried (a practical approach to things I'd say).

And yes this has nothing to do with the OP's question, but it deals with your comments directed at myself.

 

[snagencyV2.0]

I take it you're not a fan of this protocol, which is why you are basically bashing something which is so effective..

is that how you view what i am saying to you, as "bashing" your personal protocol?
wow man, kinda sensitive aren't you..
hey look, i could care less what protocol you choose to employ, and if you feel it works for you, then great knock yourself out bud
but when you come in here critiquing other ppl's advice and saying their own protocol is "incorrect" based on this understanding of things you seem to have, i will point out every time that you are incorrect in your assumptions, for the discussion we are having....especially when you try to back up your stance with erroneous justification like "science says so"

 

[Gutterpump]

No offense taken or being given, but when you come at me telling me that what works best for me is wrong and flawed, yes that comes across as though you have something against that protocol. If what works for me in practice works, then it is not wrong is it? Anyhow, this conversation has gotten ridiculous.

I have agreed from the start that the OP should only have BCAAs post evening cardio. We have all agreed to this. J3sus Chr1st.....

 

[snagencyV2.0]

No offense taken or being given, but when you come at me telling me that what works best for me is wrong and flawed, yes that comes across as though you have something against that protocol. If what works for me in practice works, then it is not wrong is it? Anyhow, this conversation has gotten ridiculous.

i have nothing against your protocol - you still seem to be confused over the issue at hand

I have agreed from the start that the OP should only have BCAAs post evening cardio. We have all agreed to this. J3sus Chr1st.....

great, no need to get upset then right?

cheers

 

[Gutterpump]

My issue was that having carbs post evening cardio was not the best suggestion to the OP I will stand strongly to this opinion. Not upset, just frustrated. Cheers

 

[double s]

Wow...appreciate all the insight.

To answer an original question....

Cardio- 20-30 mins, treadmill, low impact 3.5-4mph

 

[Gutterpump]

Wow...appreciate all the insight.

To answer an original question....

Cardio- 20-30 mins, treadmill, low impact 3.5-4mph

Low impact cardio definitely does not require post-carbs. BCAAs are perfect.

Now if you were doing HIIT / barbell complexes, then there might've been some reasoning for wanting some carbs and a shake in there.

 

[AntM1564]

Wow...appreciate all the insight.

To answer an original question....

Cardio- 20-30 mins, treadmill, low impact 3.5-4mph

I would say just go with a light meal, protein shake, or even just BCAA, If you're unable to hit your target macros prior to the cardio session, then obviously, I would try to get those macros in before bed.

 

[Gutterpump]

Heard of carb back loading? Should read up on it.

Just did some research on this. It's definitely a new concept to me. Thanks for suggesting it.

I think I will try it out down the road. I generally train at night, so this is even better. I'll eventually switch from a CKD to a TKD, carb backloading 3 nights per week post-workout. Once I get down to about 11-12% BF (in about 6 weeks or so) I'll try this out and add the results to my log. This should definitely help me out a lot since my current fullbody workouts are super taxing...so much so that I had already been thinking of switching to a TKD.

 

[Oscar]

Incorrect. How do I know this? Well, I have been a diabetic for the past 30 years, a personal trainer and competitive all natural bodybuilder the past 18 years, and a 3 time champion, winning every show I've ever entered. Each show I've won, I have had completely different insulin levels throughout my cut and have leaned out the same every time. Don't believe every "scientific" study you read, cause there is a 95% chance that there is another "scientific" study out there that can prove the complete opposite. Scientific studies can be easily manipulated to prove any point that the researcher wants to show. Sometimes real life results found from trial and error are the best studies to follow.

Any suggestions for a recently diagnosed type 1 diabetic trying to put size back on and maintain stable blood glucose levels finally brought them down to averaging in the low 200s throughout the day down from being in the high 400s low 500s

 

[juniorab]

Any suggestions for a recently diagnosed type 1 diabetic trying to put size back on and maintain stable blood glucose levels finally brought them down to averaging in the low 200s throughout the day down from being in the high 400s low 500s

Glad to hear you've dropped your sugars down half. Try to aim towards dropping it in half once more. It's tough, but the more tests you do in a day, the easier it is to control. What kind of insulin are you on? What is your diet like?

 

[Oscar]

Lantus 20 units before bed and 20 upon waking, novolin 3x daily before meals. Diet low to moderate carbs (100-150g) daily, high protein (200-250g) fairly high fat intake(don't really count the fat though but its not uncommon for me to eat 8-12 whole eggs a day.) My nutritionist wants me to lower my protein fat and overall caloric intake but I don't want to lose any more muscle and I figure that my lipids are only has high as they are since I was stupidly irresponsible with aas and stayed on for close to to 3 years but I'm gonna bring that up with my endo at my appointment tomorrow (likely gonna need trt cause my boys are shriveled up)

 

[juniorab]

Lantus 20 units before bed and 20 upon waking, novolin 3x daily before meals. Diet low to moderate carbs (100-150g) daily, high protein (200-250g) fairly high fat intake(don't really count the fat though but its not uncommon for me to eat 8-12 whole eggs a day.) My nutritionist wants me to lower my protein fat and overall caloric intake but I don't want to lose any more muscle and I figure that my lipids are only has high as they are since I was stupidly irresponsible with aas and stayed on for close to to 3 years but I'm gonna bring that up with my endo at my appointment tomorrow (likely gonna need trt cause my boys are shriveled up)

Which Novolin is it. 30/70 or R? Have you talked to your endo about trying to go on Humalog? It might make it a bit easier for you to control your sugars with a bodybuilding lifestyle.

 

[Oscar]

Its the R, its what my primary care Dr prescribed me tomorrow s the first time I'll be seeing the endo

 

[juniorab]

Its the R, its what my primary care Dr prescribed me tomorrow s the first time I'll be seeing the endo

I would talk to your endo about doing Lantis and a rapid insulin, like Humalog. Novolin R peaks at around the 4 hour mark from time of injection and is still in your system after 10-12 hours. Humalog, or other rapid acting insulins, will peak around 2 hours and is out of the system in 4 to 6 hours. So in a bodybuilding lifestyle, where you are eating 5,6,8 times a day, humalog is much easier to use and keep your sugars stable. I use Lantis at night only, and Humalog throughout the day at meals, and my last 3 A1c's have been between 6.4% and 6.6%. Pretty close to textbook perfect. I have my sugars on lockdown and it has helped me immensely with being able to add some good size on my frame. I can adjust my carb and insulin intake to take advantage of adding size on.