Ketogenic diet for a vegetarian (no eggs,meat or fish)

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    Ketogenic diet for a vegetarian (no eggs,meat or fish)


    Could someone advise on a sample ketogenic diet for a vegetarian (no meat, no eggs, no fish, etc.) but not a vegan (can take milk, eat cheese, etc.). I can source the protein from whey protein but what do I eat besides whey? I mean do I need to eat peanut butter / oils throughout? What could be the potential food choices for both fat and protein for me? I know i'll alter the proper gms of these according to my goals of calories (500 below maintenance, etc.) which is maintaining as much muscle as required while cutting / burning the fat..

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    Nuts are a great low carb snack. I believe soy is the best answer for you. Soy patties,soy meatballs,ect are protien rich. Sold at health food stores. Milk is a great option too. Infact you can make some cheese cakes with yogurt or cream cheese. Fats aren't hard to come by. Peanut Butter,flax,coconut oil.

    I personally don't like keto but if the diet is easier to adhere to then go for it. Little if any benefits from keto for fatloss.
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    Proteins from powders would be most convenient for you then but not healthy to limit it to supplements.

    Whole milk
    High protein veggies like legumes
    Nuts
    Seeds

    For any baking recipe utilizing eggs the vegan substitute is flax softened in water 1:2 ratio. Recently tried it in a vegan protein gingerbread cake and was surprised how it came out yolk consistency and baked in perfectly.

    Oils will be your friend as well

    You are seriously limiting your dietary selection here though, my honest recommendation is to take a different approach but I will post any ideas I can
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrobatt View Post
    Nuts are a great low carb snack. I believe soy is the best answer for you. Soy patties,soy meatballs,ect are protien rich. Sold at health food stores. Milk is a great option too. Infact you can make some cheese cakes with yogurt or cream cheese. Fats aren't hard to come by. Peanut Butter,flax,coconut oil.

    I personally don't like keto but if the diet is easier to adhere to then go for it. Little if any benefits from keto for fatloss.
    Well, I found Vince Gironda's steak and eggs diet which is essentially ketogenic (where he recommends only meat and eggs and fat). He doesn't allow even milk and cheese to be used, however, I can't folllow it as I can't eat meat and eggs. So, I guess the best option for protein is soy and whey . BTW, is soy devoid of any carbohydrates? The trick in this diet is to eat a lot of fats (65%, etc.) and eat only 15-20 gms of carbs or not even that. Every thrid/fourth day, there should be a meal consisting carbs. That's what Vince advised.
    Bro - the peanut butter I understand can be eaten like that, flax would be either seeds / tabs. How do I go about taking coconut oil? like drinking it? I'll have to drink a lot to keep the amt of claories I need. That's what I am worried about. Like how much butter/flax/avocadoes/coconut oil, etc would I eat? I know 1 gm of fat = 9 Kcal so there's a respite there. Would you mind sharing a good keto plan in my case? And, if not keto, what's your recommendation to shed fat? I don't think so OTC fat burners work and neither the clen/ephedrine ,etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Driven2lift View Post
    Proteins from powders would be most convenient for you then but not healthy to limit it to supplements.

    Whole milk
    High protein veggies like legumes
    Nuts
    Seeds

    For any baking recipe utilizing eggs the vegan substitute is flax softened in water 1:2 ratio. Recently tried it in a vegan protein gingerbread cake and was surprised how it came out yolk consistency and baked in perfectly.

    Oils will be your friend as well

    You are seriously limiting your dietary selection here though, my honest recommendation is to take a different approach but I will post any ideas I can
    Hey thanks buddy. A different approach would be a diet which is not ketogenic? Like carb cycling? or simply eating a little less than maintenance and working your ass of in the gym?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyRambo View Post

    Hey thanks buddy. A different approach would be a diet which is not ketogenic? Like carb cycling? or simply eating a little less than maintenance and working your ass of in the gym?
    Eating less than maintenance, regardless of what you consume, will result in weight loss. The only important stipulation us ti keep protein high to maintain muscle mass.

    Different approaches work for different people and I see merit in any diet program as long as your micronutrients are still obtained. Definitely include a multivitamin if going with your approach.

    Having some king if energy booster (stimulant/burner) will likely help, both for additional thermogenesis and also because after carb depletion lethargy can be brutal, and carb cravings can sneak up
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyrobatt View Post
    I personally don't like keto but if the diet is easier to adhere to then go for it. Little if any benefits from keto for fatloss.
    I don't believe you have been staying current with studies and meta-data showing that keto is better for fat loss than the standard. that said.. OP you will find that your going to do best with keto when you reach a 60% intake of FAT. this should make it easy to fit the rest in.
    I recommend you have heavy crème with your protein shakes and lots of cheese and oils. for most people downing a tblsp of oil is nasty but as a vegan u are prolly gonna want to get used to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xR1pp3Rx View Post
    I don't believe you have been staying current with studies and meta-data showing that keto is better for fat loss than the standard. that said.. OP you will find that your going to do best with keto when you reach a 60% intake of FAT. this should make it easy to fit the rest in.
    I recommend you have heavy crème with your protein shakes and lots of cheese and oils. for most people downing a tblsp of oil is nasty but as a vegan u are prolly gonna want to get used to it.
    Links?
    From what I can find there is no study that compairs a keto diet vs standard calorie restriction with carbs. Atleast not one that has both restricting calories with great detail about the diets.

    At this point saying one is better than the other is mental masterbation at this point. Standard diets "only burning glucose and very little fat" is ...false. saying keto diets only burn fat is...false.

    Calorie restriction is king in my opinion. If you want to do that via keto or others then go ahead. Chances are you'll reach your goal at pretty much the same time.
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    there is a great seminar posted in the nutrition section with alan aragon. have a view of it to be brought upto speed. also if u belong to PHF there is a keto thread there that has dozenz of current studies posted im dealing with the flu here so your on your own this time bro..
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    Quote Originally Posted by xR1pp3Rx View Post
    there is a great seminar posted in the nutrition section with alan aragon. have a view of it to be brought upto speed. also if u belong to PHF there is a keto thread there that has dozenz of current studies posted im dealing with the flu here so your on your own this time bro..
    As per his most recent views on keto....he says there is no significant difference lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xR1pp3Rx View Post
    I don't believe you have been staying current with studies and meta-data showing that keto is better for fat loss than the standard. that said.. OP you will find that your going to do best with keto when you reach a 60% intake of FAT. this should make it easy to fit the rest in.
    I recommend you have heavy crème with your protein shakes and lots of cheese and oils. for most people downing a tblsp of oil is nasty but as a vegan u are prolly gonna want to get used to it.
    Hey thanks !! yeah, i guess 60-65% of fat should be the target. The creme that you're talking about is whipped cream? Can I take the scoop of whey powder and mix it in whipped cream and some water? And regarding oils, i just have to down some tblsp directly during the day? I think the key idea behind keto is to limit the carbs to only 10-15 gms or cut them completely and the fat is going to do the trick. The body will then start burning fat for energy. Having said that, will it be still necessary to eat below maintenance for fat loss? And, the cheese should be cheddar cheese (the one that's very low in carbs), right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyRambo View Post
    Hey thanks !! yeah, i guess 60-65% of fat should be the target. The creme that you're talking about is whipped cream? Can I take the scoop of whey powder and mix it in whipped cream and some water? And regarding oils, i just have to down some tblsp directly during the day? I think the key idea behind keto is to limit the carbs to only 10-15 gms or cut them completely and the fat is going to do the trick. The body will then start burning fat for energy. Having said that, will it be still necessary to eat below maintenance for fat loss? And, the cheese should be cheddar cheese (the one that's very low in carbs), right?
    OP: the simple fact is that it is going to be nearly impossible to find enough protein as a vegetarian w/o carbs. Most soy based sources=carbs. Keto might not be for you
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockyRambo View Post
    Hey thanks !! yeah, i guess 60-65% of fat should be the target. The creme that you're talking about is whipped cream? Can I take the scoop of whey powder and mix it in whipped cream and some water? And regarding oils, i just have to down some tblsp directly during the day? I think the key idea behind keto is to limit the carbs to only 10-15 gms or cut them completely and the fat is going to do the trick. The body will then start burning fat for energy. Having said that, will it be still necessary to eat below maintenance for fat loss? And, the cheese should be cheddar cheese (the one that's very low in carbs), right?
    1. heavy crème.. its sold in the milk section. (half and half will do in an emergency) 1/4 cup crème 10 oz water 1/2 scoop of whey
    2. I like to cook with coconut oil, I wont detail it here but learn about this oil and MCTs
    3. if you really really want to push it.. you can go as low as 500 cals below maint.. anything less will make u feel sick and hazy. personally the best thing to do is to practice and find what works best for you.. if maintaining mass and strength is important to you, then I recommend you eat at maint.

    id be cautious of nuts and avacados until you are well into ketosis and even then keep total daily carbs under 50ish. gr depending how many days u are in keto/ after about 4 days in keto you can likely use a little more carb with out falling out of keto

    if I was going to build a plan around your diet it would look something like this..
    meal 1/ heavy-whey with MCTs
    meal 2 / fried(coconut oil) cheese rolled in milled flax seed
    meal 3 / heavy-whey with MCTs
    meal 4 / olives/cheese with kale chips(again fried in CN)
    meal 5 / heavy-whey with olive oil

    for supplements I will not extremely detail here but, this is a small list of what id consider must haves on this style diet:
    1. fish oil by the dozens... mint infused is the best!
    2. GDA of choice
    3. L-Carn/Pl-carn
    4. Heart Help
    5. Fatburner like Dexaprine
    6. Foskolin 95
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    Quote Originally Posted by xR1pp3Rx View Post
    1. heavy crème.. its sold in the milk section. (half and half will do in an emergency) 1/4 cup crème 10 oz water 1/2 scoop of whey
    2. I like to cook with coconut oil, I wont detail it here but learn about this oil and MCTs
    Thanks a tonne for the good work till now. What I will do is conduct some through research on what you've advised and otherwise and then get back to you on this thread with a proper meal plan for myself. I might have some more follow up questions as well. Thanks again.

    P.S. A protein source w/o carbs but not meat/eggs/fish is a rarity! If I target 3000 kcal with 35% protein requirement then I need 262.5 gm of protein. I can get 100 gm through 4 scoops of whey powder. I am still devoid of 162 gms but can't use even milk/cheese/soy/tofu for that because they will have carbs. If my carb intake goes above 15-20 gm, I don't think ketosis will happen or will be beneficial. On the contrary, I will be eating heavy fats and will not lose/but gain fat, may be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scherbs View Post
    OP: the simple fact is that it is going to be nearly impossible to find enough protein as a vegetarian w/o carbs. Most soy based sources=carbs. Keto might not be for you
    Well, that's a valid point indeed!
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    6 scoops of whey per day might push you over the 50 g Carb limit. unless u get some isolate to use as well. also remember... if u can handle more fat than 65% go for it.. this isn't a set in stone number.. its just good place to start. like I said.. after you get used to burning ketones it will be harder to fall out of ketosis and you might be able to eat upwards of 80-90 g of carbs per day. even though I don't follow a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, im sure if you really want to do this you can find a way to make it work for u. also once you get the diet set up, it really is the easiest to follow.. not worrying about carbs makes it simple and easy to know what u can and can not eat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xR1pp3Rx View Post
    6 scoops of whey per day might push you over the 50 g Carb limit. unless u get some isolate to use as well. also remember... if u can handle more fat than 65% go for it.. this isn't a set in stone number.. its just good place to start. like I said.. after you get used to burning ketones it will be harder to fall out of ketosis and you might be able to eat upwards of 80-90 g of carbs per day. even though I don't follow a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, im sure if you really want to do this you can find a way to make it work for u. also once you get the diet set up, it really is the easiest to follow.. not worrying about carbs makes it simple and easy to know what u can and can not eat.
    Thanks! I did some research on the 'meals' that I can have. Looks like I can have only whey, Cheddar Cheese and Provolone Cheese for my protein and Whipped Cream, Butter, Coconut Oil and Mayonnaise for my fat. Following are the macro-nutrient ratios (Fat/Protein/Carbs/Kcal) for each of them.

    1 Scoop Optimum Nutrition Whey (1/24/3/120)
    100 gm Whipped Cream (37/2/2.8/345)
    100 gm butter (81/0.8/0.1/717)
    100 gm Coconut oil (100/0/0/862)
    100 gm Cheddar Cheese(33/25/1.3/402)
    100 gm Provolone Cheese(27/26/2.1/352)
    100 gm Mayonnaise(75/1/0.6/680)

    I don't need to buy an isolate protein. If I eat amongst the above products I will definitely be able to manage at around 20 gms of carbs with 150 gms of protein and the rest fat for a 3000 KCal diet. It is quite evident that I don't have more options here and the diet looks pretty much drinking butter, whey and eating cream and cheese.
    On every 3rd/4th day I will take one meal containing carbs and no protein to replenish the muscles with glycogen.
    I have read about ketosis that a person might take 10-30 days to get into the adaptation phase to spur ketosis. Moreover, if carbs are taken on any day, it takes another 2-3 days to kick start ketosis again.

    The supplements that I plan to have on this diet are:
    1. Vitamins - B, C, D and E with meals
    2. L - Glutamine post workout
    3. Iron and Calcium tablets
    4. Kelp
    5. Alfalfa
    6. Inositol 500 mg (one tablet per day with meals)
    7. L-Carnitine
    8. Choline 500 mg (one tablet per day with meals)

    I have some questions on the above:
    1. Do I need GDA (I guess they are needed when a person is consuming excessive calories from meals?)
    2. You recommneding something for heart help?
    3. Do I need Forskolin 95 or any other fat burner?
    4. Ephedrine and Clen Buterol might be too much on the heart for such a diet?
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    ok I will try to walk u through this a point at a time.
    1. no you are NOT limited to that specific food list.. there are many, many things you can target for your diet.. but as you are depleting try to avoid any carbs..
    trace amounts are found in a lot of things.. they will not effect your diet much when used sparingly. (olives are great example) 5-6 olives = 2+\- g of carbs.
    imo you are placing yourself into a corner. almost every cheese will fit this diet. every 3rd or 4th day carb meal is not a good idea for the initial phase of this diet. why do you want to refill glycogen? are you a strength trainer? if not, don't do this. it does nothing to help you get into ketosis in particular.

    2. there is a difference between heavy crème and whipped crème. ones full of sugar.. the other is not.

    3. if you would like know how to get into keto in under 72 hrs then you will need to learn to use depletion methods and tactical supplementing. the thing is .. not much reason to achieve this if your going to turn around and eat carbs the next day. lets instead learn the diet and get into the swing of things before you attempt a recarb. If u follow my lead you can get into keto and retrain your body to use the ketones for energy and start burning fat like crazy. after you get it down pat I will show you how to carb up to get the most out of the phase with out spilling over and regaining fat. u don't want the ole 1 step forward two steps back to happen.

    4. save your money on the l-glutamine. it does absolutely nothing for you but give you terrible gas. just having a protein shake after a work out will do far more for you than l-glutamine ever would.

    5. L-carn is great.. take a full serving with every meal. the pl-carn would be helpful as well (it has heart protective qualities). you have no insulin mimetic in your list.. you should be taking something like chromium and cinnamon at each meal as well. the carnitine will help mobilize fat (this is a giant boon to this type diet) for use as fuel and the Chromium/cinnamon will act to stabilize the blood sugar response to anything dietary and increase your insulin sensitivity for upcoming carb ups.

    6. GDA will be used primarily to push any circulating glucose out of the muscles into the blood stream. you will take these at night before bed only as using them without carbs may make you feel a little hypoglycemic. these can also be used to help facilitate your decent into keto after your carb ups.. there will be plenty of glucose in the muscles that they probably wont make u feel sick. I highly recommend the OG version of slin sane ... and its cheap!

    7. I mentioned a product called heart help by I force.. its not a must have but its definitely a good supplement to use when your going to be guzzling butter!

    8. forsk95 and a fat burner can totally be optional. forsk is cheap and a good fat burner like dexaprine will last and last.. as you will only need to take a fat burner during carb ups and decents into keto.. otherwise you will be relying on the diet to burn the fat. dexaprine is possibly the strongest fat burner on the market and most people use a half a tab so as you could imagine 1 bottle will take you a few months to use up making it an economical purchase.

    9. I personally believe there is not much to worry about heart wise.. I don't think this diet will cause issues (I only mention heart help as a means to optimize your ldl/hdl) EC or clen would be fine but just like the dexaprine its not needed but can be of use.

    ok... chew on that and we will continue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xR1pp3Rx View Post
    ok I will try to walk u through this a point at a time.
    ok... chew on that and we will continue.
    1. no you are NOT limited to that specific food list.......if not, don't do this. it does nothing to help you get into ketosis in particular.

    Well, I looked at a lot of recommendations on keto diet from people and found that almost all proteins that don’t have carbs are either meat or fish or eggs. So, I am left with only whey and cheese. Yes, I think, I can use a lot of cheese types, however, I found these two to be quite low in carbs and high in fat and protein. Additionally, a lot of fat sources had carbs in them. I just tried targeting the total carbs per day to be not more than 20-25 gms.
    Regarding the glycogen fact, well, I am a Vince Gironda fan so read this stuff in his books. I know it is quite old school but then his methods have helped me a lot and I think a lot of people. Here is what he called a ‘Definition diet’

    There has always been considerable mystery and misconception concerning a diet that promotes muscle definition. For the most part, all carbohydrates must be removed from your menu. The only milk products that can be used are butter and cream. Meat, fish, and eggs are the only foods permissible. You must, however, eat a high-carbohydrate meal every four or five days (i.e., pasta, potato, grain, fruit); otherwise your muscles will smooth out and your strength will decrease. When dieting to lose fat, the use of lipotropic or fat-burning agents are helpful. They don't perform miracles, but they do speed up results. The main lipotropics are the B vitamins choline and inositol, which aid in the production oflecithin, enabling the liver and gall bladder to metabolize fats more readily and efficiently. I recommend that 250- 1000 mg be taken with meals. Other lipotropics that should be taken are the amino acid methionine, betaine hydrochloric acid, liver and yeast tablets, B complex, kelp, alfalfa, Vitamin C, tri-germ, wheat germ, and fish oils.
    The above diet works so well for defming muscles because fats are used as a source of fuel for the body. Since it is difficult for the body to convert fat into energy, this results in a loss of your existing body fat. Finally, I recommend that you take a layoff of 3-5 days from all supplements every third week, while abstaining from them one day each week. Also, remember to have a high-carbohydrate meal with no protein every third or fourth day to replenish glycogen to your muscles.

    I think even he was advising ketosis to burn fat!! But I know that a carb meal after every 3 or 4 days will interfere with the ketosis per se. So, your advice is to first get adapted to this diet in a month or two and only then think of using any carb-ups?

    2. there is a difference between heavy crème and whipped crème. ones full of sugar.. the other is not.

    Are you referring to heavy cream such as Tuscan Heavy Cream? Somehow, I am not able to find heavy cream nutrition contents online. The nutrition contents that I posted for whipped cream are I guess wrong. 100 gm whipped cream has 12 gm carbs, so can’t use it. Please let me know the nutrition contents and/or any links to heavy cream.

    3. if you would like know how to get into keto in under 72 hrs then ...... u don't want the ole 1 step forward two steps back to happen.

    Yeah, that’s right. So, is it necessary to keep the calorie intake less than the maintenance? Or will the diet allow fat burn even on maintenance?

    4. save your money on the l-glutamine. it does absolutely nothing for you but give you terrible gas. just having a protein shake after a work out will do far more for you than l-glutamine ever would.

    Sure!

    5. L-carn is great.. take a full serving with every meal. the pl-carn .....upcoming carb ups.

    I read some reviews on L-Carn and they are mixed (there’s skepticism around its abilities to burn fat).
    Cinnamon – Does this help preserve muscle during carb-ups? I can eat Cinnamon as a spice per se or do I need to buy cinnamon extract tablets and then eat how many? Two tablets three times a day? The idea is if I will be low on carbs, my blood sugar will be low. Cinnamon will act as an insulin mimic to balance that?

    6. GDA will be used primarily to push any circulating glucose out of the ...... and its cheap!

    I am sorry but I couldn’t follow you here much. Why do I need to deplete the muscles of the glucose? Arent they already depleted of it due to the keto diet?

    7. I mentioned a product called heart help by I force.. its not a must have but its definitely a good supplement to use when your going to be guzzling butter!

    Ok, so Heart help by iforce is to control the cholesterol levels due to butter/cream. That’s fine.

    8. forsk95 and a fat burner can totally be optional. forsk is cheap ...... economical purchase.

    Ok, so dexaprine is in but I should take it only on carb ups?

    9. I personally believe there is not much to worry about heart wise.. I don't think this diet will cause issues (I only mention heart help as a means to optimize your ldl/hdl) EC or clen would be fine but just like the dexaprine its not needed but can be of use.

    P.S.
    1. Sorry for the late reply. I was engrossed with a lot of things off late
    2. I tried shooting you a PM but it says I cant unless you delete some of your messages as your quota has already reached
    3. A very happy new year 
    4. I was on a 'stupid' cycle of test e for 6 weeks - 250,250,500,500,500,250. I didn't use the HCG during the cycle but I am using right now as week 7 and week 8 , 2000 i.u. each , week 9-12 will be clomid 50/50/25/25 and exemestane 12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5
    Right now, I am in week 8 but my face still looks bloated with water retention. My weight is also high due to water. I am thinking to start keto for fat loss only after the complete PCT of 4 weeks or after 1-2 weeks of a 2 week PCT (If i decide to run a shorter clomid and exemestane PCT). Will that be fine?
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    vince was on the cutting edge back in the late 70s and even into the 80s. but since then most of this stuff has been refined to a perfection. I will clr my pm box
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    Quote Originally Posted by xR1pp3Rx View Post
    vince was on the cutting edge back in the late 70s and even into the 80s. but since then most of this stuff has been refined to a perfection. I will clr my pm box
    Sure..I will shoot you a test message!
  

  
 

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