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Nutritional myths

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    I'm not sure what to reply to that... I was referring to scientific studies. But I agree just because someone is published doesn't make it factual.

    BB's are definitely underrated or not as respected in the rest of normal world as they should be. When you mention BB's to people they think it's somehow easy to lift weights and take steroids, I've been studying BB's and their lifestyle for a few years now and it's amazingly technical and complex, not to mention it requires extreme discipline and work ethic. I've heard guys say that boot camp in the marines doesn't hold a candle to getting in shape for a BB contest.
    You kept saying science is influenced by.. or poor science in the 80's... that wasn't science, that was someone's study. They are not one in the same.

    BBing and Boot camp are ENTIRELY different.. Comparing the two makes no sense. That's like saying I've heard people say that jumping on a trampoline doesn't hold a candle to walking on the moon. Would you expect them to be similar?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    I disagree, go watch some Dorian Yates interviews, or Frank Zane. Both are scientific in their approaches.
    Do they represent the entire BBing community? Where do they get there knowledge from? Many BBers know absolutely nothing about physiology. They might say "Carbs make the body secrete insulin" and that's about it. Ask them about Cellular signaling and they wont know the answer. Or ask them about hormonal interactions and they won't know anything outside the basic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    You kept saying science is influenced by.. or poor science in the 80's... that wasn't science, that was someone's study. They are not one in the same.

    BBing and Boot camp are ENTIRELY different.. Comparing the two makes no sense. That's like saying I've heard people say that jumping on a trampoline doesn't hold a candle to walking on the moon. Would you expect them to be similar?



    Do they represent the entire BBing community? Where do they get there knowledge from? Many BBers know absolutely nothing about physiology. They might say "Carbs make the body secrete insulin" and that's about it. Ask them about Cellular signaling and they wont know the answer. Or ask them about hormonal interactions and they won't know anything outside the basic.
    So you don't think that science is or has been influenced by politics?

    Both BB and boot camp are testaments to physical/mental strength and endurance, as well as discipline and motivation.

    I think you'd be surprised how much the pro's know about the body. Layne Norton for example has several degrees and has won BB competitions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    So you don't think that science is or has been influenced by politics?

    Both BB and boot camp are testaments to physical/mental strength and endurance, as well as discipline and motivation.

    I think you'd be surprised how much the pro's know about the body. Layne Norton for example has several degrees and has won BB competitions.
    Again, you misinterpret what Science actually is. The study of the human body is a science and that cannot be influenced by money; what can be influenced by money is how data is interpreted,what results are left out or included, what parameters we use to study variables and so on, but that is just the process in which we conduct a study. We know, for example, the role of skeletal muscle or cardiac muscle but yet a scientific study may be used to determine how certain hormones, supplements etc. interact with that muscle to elicit different effects. The role of the muscle does not change though.

    Different types of mental strength and physical strength. A Powerlifter can outlift many BBers, but does that discredit the work of a BBer? I know people who train by pushing cars and trucks (or pulling them) yet I never see a BBer work this way.

    I think you are misunderstanding. Layne also has a PhD. Yes, he represents about 0.00001 of the Bbing population. You'd also be surprised at how little they know. If anecdotal evidence to live by is anything, many Bbers in my gym seem to think that squatting down an inch is enough to stimulate growth.
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    Layne is definitely an anomaly in the fitness industry.

    Using Layne as an example though he regularly calls out the bad science which trainers and other bodybuilders parrot. He is very outspoken in this regard.

    This would tend to support Hayden's point.
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    I think the biggest nutritional myths are the ones that are believed implicitly but not stated explicitly. For example, "avoid sugar", as if sugar has some special fattening property that calories don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmiyamoto View Post
    I think the biggest nutritional myths are the ones that are believed implicitly but not stated explicitly. For example, "avoid sugar", as if sugar has some special fattening property that calories don't.
    Simple sugar does does impact your body in several unpleasant ways.

    An instant insulin spike changes the insulin/glycogen ratio and has negative implications on fat burning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Again, you misinterpret what Science actually is. The study of the human body is a science and that cannot be influenced by money; what can be influenced by money is how data is interpreted,what results are left out or included, what parameters we use to study variables and so on, but that is just the process in which we conduct a study. We know, for example, the role of skeletal muscle or cardiac muscle but yet a scientific study may be used to determine how certain hormones, supplements etc. interact with that muscle to elicit different effects. The role of the muscle does not change though.

    Different types of mental strength and physical strength. A Powerlifter can outlift many BBers, but does that discredit the work of a BBer? I know people who train by pushing cars and trucks (or pulling them) yet I never see a BBer work this way.

    I think you are misunderstanding. Layne also has a PhD. Yes, he represents about 0.00001 of the Bbing population. You'd also be surprised at how little they know. If anecdotal evidence to live by is anything, many Bbers in my gym seem to think that squatting down an inch is enough to stimulate growth.
    You should accept that science can be influenced money and politics, thus influencing the outcome of what that particular investor is looking for.

    The top BB's have always been ahead of the pack in terms of intuition and understanding. Just because they express it in layman's terms,l doesn't mean they don't understand how it all works and how to build muscle and strength. That's the difference is that BB's are DOING it, labcoats are studying the theory of it.

    I've never heard any BB say that squatting an inch is sufficient for muscle growth, that's absurd.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Layne is definitely an anomaly in the fitness industry.

    Using Layne as an example though he regularly calls out the bad science which trainers and other bodybuilders parrot. He is very outspoken in this regard.

    This would tend to support Hayden's point.
    We are talking about the same Layne Norton that writes articles for the top BB websites and we a guest host on the last Olympia, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post

    I've never heard any BB say that squatting an inch is sufficient for muscle growth, that's absurd.
    Lol, have you ever watched most top level BBers train? Not a full ROM in sight.
    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post

    We are talking about the same Layne Norton that writes articles for the top BB websites and we a guest host on the last Olympia, right?
    No, the other Layne Norton with the Ph.D. who bodybuilds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmiyamoto View Post
    I think the biggest nutritional myths are the ones that are believed implicitly but not stated explicitly. For example, "avoid sugar", as if sugar has some special fattening property that calories don't.
    That special fattening property is called insulin, and sugar stimulates it's release, thereby influencing fat storage. Sugar in fruit is slightly different because it requires more digestive processing such as fibers and carbs, so the fructose isn't as easily absorbed, or blunts the insulin response.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Lol, have you ever watched most top level BBers train? Not a full ROM in sight.

    No, the other Layne Norton with the Ph.D. who bodybuilds.
    That's nonsense, they wouldn't be nearly as developed if they didn't understand the fundamentals of hypertrophy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post

    That special fattening property is called insulin, and sugar stimulates it's release, thereby influencing fat storage. Sugar in fruit is slightly different because it requires more digestive processing such as fibers and carbs, so the fructose isn't as easily absorbed, or blunts the insulin response.
    Insulin is probably the most Anabolic hormone in the human body, there's a reason BBers supplement it via injection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Insulin is probably the most Anabolic hormone in the human body, there's a reason BBers supplement it via injection.
    JB,

    Insulin is very anabolic, it is also very lipogenic.

    "Insulin is an indicator of the blood sugar level of the body, as its concentration increases proportionally with blood sugar levels. Thus, a large insulin level is associated with the fed state. As one might expect, it increases the rate of storage pathways, such as lipogenesis. Insulin stimulates lipogenesis in two main ways: The enzymes pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), which forms acetyl-CoA, and acetyl-CoA carboxylase (ACC), which forms malonyl-CoA from acetyl-CoA, are obvious control points. These are activated by insulin. So a high insulin level leads to an overall increase in the levels of malonyl-CoA, which is the substrate required for fatty acids synthesis."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post

    JB,

    Insulin is very anabolic, it is also very lipogenic.

    "Insulin is an indicator of the blood sugar level of the body, as its concentration increases proportionally with blood sugar levels. Thus, a large insulin level is associated with the fed state. As one might expect, it increases the rate of storage pathways, such as lipogenesis. Insulin stimulates lipogenesis in two main ways: The enzymes pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), which forms acetyl-CoA, and acetyl-CoA carboxylase (ACC), which forms malonyl-CoA from acetyl-CoA, are obvious control points. These are activated by insulin. So a high insulin level leads to an overall increase in the levels of malonyl-CoA, which is the substrate required for fatty acids synthesis."
    I am aware.

    But I'm also aware that insulin shouldn't be demonized like some in this thread are trying to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    We are talking about the same Layne Norton that writes articles for the top BB websites and we a guest host on the last Olympia, right?
    Yes. He is an anomaly because he has an impressive academic background as well as successful bodybuilding background.

    If you watch his YouTube videos you will regularly see him dispelling myths in the industry which other bodybuilders still abide by.

    This is not to discredit other successful bodybuilders. They have reached that level due to immense dedication. It is more to say that if someone with good scientific knowledge went through their protocols with a fine tooth comb they will see that many methods are outdated.

    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    That special fattening property is called insulin, and sugar stimulates it's release, thereby influencing fat storage. Sugar in fruit is slightly different because it requires more digestive processing such as fibers and carbs, so the fructose isn't as easily absorbed, or blunts the insulin response.
    I once wrote an article about this.

    Upon reflection, taking insulin and glucose ingestion as surrogate factors and extrapolating their effects on weight loss is walking across a bridge which appears to not exist.

    Low sucrose vs high sucrose, isocaloric diets; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9094871
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    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    You should accept that science can be influenced money and politics, thus influencing the outcome of what that particular investor is looking for.

    The top BB's have always been ahead of the pack in terms of intuition and understanding. Just because they express it in layman's terms,l doesn't mean they don't understand how it all works and how to build muscle and strength. That's the difference is that BB's are DOING it, labcoats are studying the theory of it.

    I've never heard any BB say that squatting an inch is sufficient for muscle growth, that's absurd.
    No, science is not influenced by money or politics. Studies can be, as can interpretation of available data. But they are NOT the same. Can a politician or Corporation pay enough money to change the role of insulin in the body? Or can they merely pay somebody to interpret data on insulin differently to its actual function? I perform glucose and lactate testing all the time; I can manipulate the results by altering my data collection methods but I cannot prevent lactate from accumulating unless I physically change certain variables.

    I lift 5 days a week, spend an hour and a half in the gym (1 hour doing my workout, half an hour stretching and doing rehab and prehab stuff) which is me practicing what I preach. But I also spend a great deal of my day either working with Degree, Masters or PhD students at my university gym or our Millenium institute observing elite and non-elite people and on top of that, a great deal of time studying. So if you are trying to say I spend to much time reading and not doing, you are quite incorrect.


    I learn the theory, then watch it being performed and carry it out myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    lol. I thought you would have weighed in by now
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Insulin is probably the most Anabolic hormone in the human body, there's a reason BBers supplement it via injection.
    Sure, doesn't mean it's healthy, same with injection of AAS. You know many BB's have killed themselves by using insulin improperly, also they usually use it during their bulking phase because they tend to get really fat and bloated during usage. They also tend to crash after taking it and have to have a nap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I am aware.

    But I'm also aware that insulin shouldn't be demonized like some in this thread are trying to do.
    no, it's neither good or bad, insulin is merely a transporter and storage hormone. It can help feed your muscles with nutrients and also store fat. The confusing part about this hormone is that it reacts differently in everyone's body, so that's why there are countless studies which contradict one another. Hence why some groups favour carbs and others go to the opposite extreme with ketogenic dieting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Yes. He is an anomaly because he has an impressive academic background as well as successful bodybuilding background.

    If you watch his YouTube videos you will regularly see him dispelling myths in the industry which other bodybuilders still abide by.

    This is not to discredit other successful bodybuilders. They have reached that level due to immense dedication. It is more to say that if someone with good scientific knowledge went through their protocols with a fine tooth comb they will see that many methods are outdated.



    I once wrote an article about this.

    Upon reflection, taking insulin and glucose ingestion as surrogate factors and extrapolating their effects on weight loss is walking across a bridge which appears to not exist.

    Low sucrose vs high sucrose, isocaloric diets;
    Yes but dedication is meaningless without proper execution. Even though they may be incorrect on some fronts, they must be doing most other things correctly in order to achieved their desired results.

    I'm not sure what your trying to say in your last sentence, give it to me in plain English please. And what does that article have to do with this subject?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    No, science is not influenced by money or politics. Studies can be, as can interpretation of available data. But they are NOT the same. Can a politician or Corporation pay enough money to change the role of insulin in the body? Or can they merely pay somebody to interpret data on insulin differently to its actual function? I perform glucose and lactate testing all the time; I can manipulate the results by altering my data collection methods but I cannot prevent lactate from accumulating unless I physically change certain variables.

    I lift 5 days a week, spend an hour and a half in the gym (1 hour doing my workout, half an hour stretching and doing rehab and prehab stuff) which is me practicing what I preach. But I also spend a great deal of my day either working with Degree, Masters or PhD students at my university gym or our Millenium institute observing elite and non-elite people and on top of that, a great deal of time studying. So if you are trying to say I spend to much time reading and not doing, you are quite incorrect.


    I learn the theory, then watch it being performed and carry it out myself.



    lol. I thought you would have weighed in by now
    Exactly, you could manipulate certain variables to achieve a certain result, or someone could pay you to perform a certain test and design the tests so you achieve a certain result. If there is enough money involved one could achieve which ever result they wanted. The tobacco industry is a prime example, they manipulated all kinds of data to their favour in the past.

    "This brings me to the duality of scientific research. We as “thinking” bodybuilders rely on research to mold our beliefs, support our stance on controversial issues, and ultimately, dictate our protocols. Science indeed is infinitely more reliable than random opinions of buff dudes with hyooge byceptz & rippt abz. But unfortunately, even science is puppeteered by money and politics. For example, whoever pays for the study is gonna get the results they want. That’s brutal but true. The best we can do in any given debate is see whether controlled research over time is able to produce counter-results from the opposition (which hasn’t yet occurred in the case of the anti-milk camp, HAH!), or whether relatively non-vested replication and further validation ensues. It goes without saying that all research must be scrutinized for strengths and weaknesses."

    --Alan Aragon
    (still unable to post links..3 more posts to go)

    Why do you spend so much time stretching, are you trying to improve flexibility? Other than flexibility, and maybe if you're experiencing DOMS, stretching doesn't really serve any purpose, it could likely be detrimental and cause a tear, and at the very least consume precious energy that could be sparred for your lifts. Nobody cares about your credentials, quit bragging already haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    Exactly, you could manipulate certain variables to achieve a certain result, or someone could pay you to perform a certain test and design the tests so you achieve a certain result. If there is enough money involved one could achieve which ever result they wanted. The tobacco industry is a prime example, they manipulated all kinds of data to their favour in the past.

    "This brings me to the duality of scientific research. We as “thinking” bodybuilders rely on research to mold our beliefs, support our stance on controversial issues, and ultimately, dictate our protocols. Science indeed is infinitely more reliable than random opinions of buff dudes with hyooge byceptz & rippt abz. But unfortunately, even science is puppeteered by money and politics. For example, whoever pays for the study is gonna get the results they want. That’s brutal but true. The best we can do in any given debate is see whether controlled research over time is able to produce counter-results from the opposition (which hasn’t yet occurred in the case of the anti-milk camp, HAH!), or whether relatively non-vested replication and further validation ensues. It goes without saying that all research must be scrutinized for strengths and weaknesses."

    --Alan Aragon
    (still unable to post links..3 more posts to go)

    Why do you spend so much time stretching, are you trying to improve flexibility? Other than flexibility, and maybe if you're experiencing DOMS, stretching doesn't really serve any purpose, it could likely be detrimental and cause a tear, and at the very least consume precious energy that could be sparred for your lifts. Nobody cares about your credentials, quit bragging already haha
    Yes, Alan is talking about scientific research.

    Stretching can help prevent an anteriorly pelvic tilt (i.e. increased lordosis) or a posterior pelvic tilt (i.e. increased kyphosis), it can prevent the sub acromial space getting crowded and thus reduce your chance of shoulder impingement, allows for increased ROM, can help maintain a neutral posture, prevent heels raising during squats, prevent lower back rounding during squats and deadlifts and the list goes on.

    If you don't stretch, prepare for a lifetime of postural issues and subsequently a decreased quality of life. Please do not tell me it increases chance of muscle tear, that is false unless performed incorrectly. And I stretch post workout; so all my energy is used during lifting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    Yes but dedication is meaningless without proper execution. Even though they may be incorrect on some fronts, they must be doing most other things correctly in order to achieved their desired results.

    I'm not sure what your trying to say in your last sentence, give it to me in plain English please. And what does that article have to do with this subject?
    Layne was used as an example of bodybuilders having knowledge. My point was that Layne continually points out how inadequate common bodybuilding beliefs are.

    The last study supports the notion that under isocaloric conditions it doesn't matter if sugar is consumed in abundance as it won't significantly impact weight loss vs low sugar diets. This goes against several posts in this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    lol. I thought you would have weighed in by now
    I have been trying to avoid threads like this
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Layne's response to Ben's tweet today.

    That is all...I ain't getting involved in this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    So you don't think that science is or has been influenced by politics?

    Both BB and boot camp are testaments to physical/mental strength and endurance, as well as discipline and motivation.

    I think you'd be surprised how much the pro's know about the body. Layne Norton for example has several degrees and has won BB competitions.
    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Layne is definitely an anomaly in the fitness industry.

    Using Layne as an example though he regularly calls out the bad science which trainers and other bodybuilders parrot. He is very outspoken in this regard.

    This would tend to support Hayden's point.
    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    You should accept that science can be influenced money and politics, thus influencing the outcome of what that particular investor is looking for.

    The top BB's have always been ahead of the pack in terms of intuition and understanding. Just because they express it in layman's terms,l doesn't mean they don't understand how it all works and how to build muscle and strength. That's the difference is that BB's are DOING it, labcoats are studying the theory of it.

    I've never heard any BB say that squatting an inch is sufficient for muscle growth, that's absurd.
    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    We are talking about the same Layne Norton that writes articles for the top BB websites and we a guest host on the last Olympia, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Yes. He is an anomaly because he has an impressive academic background as well as successful bodybuilding background.

    If you watch his YouTube videos you will regularly see him dispelling myths in the industry which other bodybuilders still abide by.

    This is not to discredit other successful bodybuilders. They have reached that level due to immense dedication. It is more to say that if someone with good scientific knowledge went through their protocols with a fine tooth comb they will see that many methods are outdated.


    I once wrote an article about this.

    Upon reflection, taking insulin and glucose ingestion as surrogate factors and extrapolating their effects on weight loss is walking across a bridge which appears to not exist.

    Low sucrose vs high sucrose, isocaloric diets; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9094871
    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Layne was used as an example of bodybuilders having knowledge. My point was that Layne continually points out how inadequate common bodybuilding beliefs are.

    The last study supports the notion that under isocaloric conditions it doesn't matter if sugar is consumed in abundance as it won't significantly impact weight loss vs low sugar diets. This goes against several posts in this thread.
    Just for fun, I tweeted Layne to see what his opinion was.

    Here was his reply;


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    End thread
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Hilarious.
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    Yah, but a smart 12 year old.
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    that's a funny response, however I was referencing pro's, not the average BB.
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    Don't almost all professional BBers have coaches (nutrition and training)?

    If they knew so much, why hire someone else to tell them how to do it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Don't almost all professional BBers have coaches (nutrition and training)?

    If they knew so much, why hire someone else to tell them how to do it?
    The same reason we allow people to critique us in our training logs. Our own eyes and train of thought is not always what's really going on.

    ​" If you're looking for a work horse.......I'm no Clydesdale."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    The same reason we allow people to critique us in our training logs. Our own eyes and train of thought is not always what's really going on.
    Precisely... They can look at your body, training and diet more objectively and provide motivation.
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    Average Joe = Doesn't know what he is doing

    Intermediate Joe = Thinks he knows what he is doing but doesn't really know

    Advanced Joe = Has a good grasp on nutrition but still has a huge learning curve

    Professional Joe = Knows his stuff from learning from this next guy but still needs this next guy to keep him on point

    Nutrition Coach Joe = Knows his stuff (mainly dealing with his preferred approaches but has overall knowledge of many different regiments)and tells all these other guys what they should do from an outside looking in point of view

    ​" If you're looking for a work horse.......I'm no Clydesdale."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    Average Joe = Doesn't know what he is doing

    Intermediate Joe = Thinks he knows what he is doing but doesn't really know

    Advanced Joe = Has a good grasp on nutrition but still has a huge learning curve

    Professional Joe = Knows his stuff from learning from this next guy but still needs this next guy to keep him on point

    Nutrition Coach Joe = Knows his stuff (mainly dealing with his preferred approaches but has overall knowledge of many different regiments)and tells all these other guys what they should do from an outside looking in point of view
    Joe Garagiola = Dead
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Just for fun, I tweeted Layne to see what his opinion was.

    Here was his reply;


    Name:  rsz_twitter.jpg
Views: 79
Size:  25.0 KB
    Lmao.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattvdh View Post
    that's a funny response, however I was referencing pro's, not the average BB.
    I am pretty confident that if I had rephrased it to "your typical professional bodybuilder" his answer would have been similar if not identical.

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Don't almost all professional BBers have coaches (nutrition and training)?

    If they knew so much, why hire someone else to tell them how to do it?
    One of the professional bodybuilding coaches who trains many top pros likes delaying their post workout shake to take advantage of extended GH release for fat loss properties. Layne would have a field day with this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montego1 View Post
    Average Joe = Doesn't know what he is doing

    Intermediate Joe = Thinks he knows what he is doing but doesn't really know

    Advanced Joe = Has a good grasp on nutrition but still has a huge learning curve

    Professional Joe = Knows his stuff from learning from this next guy but still needs this next guy to keep him on point

    Nutrition Coach Joe = Knows his stuff (mainly dealing with his preferred approaches but has overall knowledge of many different regiments)and tells all these other guys what they should do from an outside looking in point of view
    This about sums it up.

    Of course, people in our industry will always learn new things and therefore should always be open to new things. I'm currently writing a schematic plan for a client with Coronary Artery Disease and need to talk with him about how to manage his risk. The guidelines we are given are that high carbs (esp. grains) and low fat is the way to manage this condition.

    I would argue this would make it much, much worse considering all the new data linking higher carb lower fat diets with higher triglycerides and thus smaller, denser LDL particles which are more susceptible to oxidation and forming plaque on the arteries. Now, if this diet makes the condition worse, why are universities and other 'health' organization's recommending it?

    Surely I am not the only one who knows that the particle size of LDL makes a difference.

    In short, be open to new ideas
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I am pretty confident that if I had rephrased it to "your typical professional bodybuilder" his answer would have been similar if not identical.

    Yeah probably, whateves.
  

  
 

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