Carbs carbs carbs carbs and less carbs or more carbs.

Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. New Member
    Eddinho08's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  183 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    22
    Rep Power
    200
    Level
    5
    Lv. Percent
    5.72%

    Carbs carbs carbs carbs and less carbs or more carbs.


    As the title says this is about carbsssss!!. So a quick question, can low carbing for too long affect fat loss?. I've been carb cycling for over 8 months, and usually stay at about 150g per day and refeeds were 300-400g. (keep in mind this is the average amount, I did vary and have 0 carbs at times).
    Reason?.. Because I was trying to lean out, but situations arose where it set me back on my diet.
    (broke college student for example).
    At the moment, I switched to keto at 2000-2100cal
    Carb/protein/fat- 25g/175g/133g- 26g/183g/140g
    I'm at 201lbs and I'm 5'9"

  2. New Member
    Epolis13's Avatar
    Stats
    5'6"  143 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    268
    Rep Power
    113806
    Level
    21
    Lv. Percent
    4.38%

    How long have you been on keto? I am not a fan of keto diets, I'll just say that outright. Anything that is too restrictive for too long will not end well. I am unsure of how being a broke college student would hinder your ability to eat carbohydrates, though. That is a serious question, not a mean one, I promise! I just don't see why you can't eat carbohydrates on a budget. If you're talking about food and nourishing yourself, it's worth it. I have never been and will never be an advocate of a diet that virtually eliminates an entire macronutrient group. It is not substantial, nor is it healthy. Might it work for fat loss? Sure. But it's not sustainable and it's not good for you, in my very honest opinion.
    iForce Nutrition Representative - iTrain. iCompete. iDominate
  3. New Member
    Eddinho08's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  183 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    22
    Rep Power
    200
    Level
    5
    Lv. Percent
    5.72%

    That's true. I would like to reintroduce carbs once I'm out of keto. I've been in CKD for about 3 weeks now. It only took me 4days to undergo the induction phase of keto since I've been low carbing so long.
    As for $$. Let's just leave it at this.
    Govt decided to take all my resources from my personal bank acct , a levy and literally left me broke.
    Only food I could eat was that my parents had, and it's not what we call clean necessarily (few fruits/veg. Lots of cereal, top ramen, cheap meats.)
    I did manage to stay fairly lean during that situation.
    •   
       

  4. New Member
    Epolis13's Avatar
    Stats
    5'6"  143 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    268
    Rep Power
    113806
    Level
    21
    Lv. Percent
    4.38%

    I'm sorry to hear that. Friggin' government.
    iForce Nutrition Representative - iTrain. iCompete. iDominate
  5. Elite Member
    Jiigzz's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,548
    Rep Power
    4497168
    Level
    81
    Lv. Percent
    63.34%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Carbs are by far the cheapest of all the macros but are by far the most necessary. Keto diets are interesting, but do not result in more fat loss or weight loss than any other calorie restrictive diet; after all, energy is energy and it has to go somewhere.

    In saying that, I have nothing against low carb diets especially if you maintain eating starches (to prevent alpha amylase downregulation).
  6. Board Sponsor
    Distilled Water's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    9,811
    Rep Power
    2354473
    Level
    76
    Lv. Percent
    21.87%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Keto diets are not very expensive.

    1lb 80/20 ground beef: $3.50
    1 dozen eggs: $1.75
    4TBS Olive Oil: ~$0.50
    2 scoops Protein: ~$1.00
    Total: $6.75

    Rough Macros (p/f/c) 200/200/<30 & about 2,600 cals total

    That's a day of food for someone your size goals. Cheaper if you can buy in bulk. Chicken is usually cheaper than beef so cut cost there and add more olive oil. Canned tuna is another option also.

    Back to your original question. How are your carbs & re-feed scheduled? Typically people 6 days of <30carbs and have a carb day on the 7th. The carb day is lower in fat and high in carbs. Usually 4-600. This carb up helps keep leptin, thyroid and insulin functioning properly as they can get out of whack from being in a deficit for too long.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
  7. Elite Member
    Jiigzz's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,548
    Rep Power
    4497168
    Level
    81
    Lv. Percent
    63.34%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    Keto diets are not very expensive.

    1lb 80/20 ground beef: $3.50
    1 dozen eggs: $1.75
    4TBS Olive Oil: ~$0.50
    2 scoops Protein: ~$1.00
    Total: $6.75

    Rough Macros (p/f/c) 200/200/<30 & about 2,600 cals total

    That's a day of food for someone your size goals. Cheaper if you can buy in bulk. Chicken is usually cheaper than beef so cut cost there and add more olive oil. Canned tuna is another option also.

    Back to your original question. How are your carbs & re-feed scheduled? Typically people 6 days of <30carbs and have a carb day on the 7th. The carb day is lower in fat and high in carbs. Usually 4-600. This carb up helps keep leptin, thyroid and insulin functioning properly as they can get out of whack from being in a deficit for too long.
    I need to move to the U.S LOL. Food prices are so good there.
  8. Board Sponsor
    Distilled Water's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    9,811
    Rep Power
    2354473
    Level
    76
    Lv. Percent
    21.87%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    I need to move to the U.S LOL. Food prices are so good there.
    About 4-6 years ago. You would have laughed at those prices. In college I was getting the beef for about 1.99/lb (10lbs) and 10 dozen eggs for &7.50. I was buying in bulk but its not like I was t gonna eat it lol.
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
  9. Elite Member
    Tomahawk88's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  250 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    9,005
    Rep Power
    629267
    Level
    64
    Lv. Percent
    36.86%
    Achievements Activity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water
    Keto diets are not very expensive.

    1lb 80/20 ground beef: $3.50
    1 dozen eggs: $1.75
    4TBS Olive Oil: ~$0.50
    2 scoops Protein: ~$1.00
    Total: $6.75

    Rough Macros (p/f/c) 200/200/<30 & about 2,600 cals total

    That's a day of food for someone your size goals. Cheaper if you can buy in bulk. Chicken is usually cheaper than beef so cut cost there and add more olive oil. Canned tuna is another option also.

    Back to your original question. How are your carbs & re-feed scheduled? Typically people 6 days of <30carbs and have a carb day on the 7th. The carb day is lower in fat and high in carbs. Usually 4-600. This carb up helps keep leptin, thyroid and insulin functioning properly as they can get out of whack from being in a deficit for too long.
    Ya this but I wouldn't do olive oil. Especially the 7 day refeeds and under 30 grams of carbs a day. This is of course if you are still trying to cut.
  10. New Member
    Eddinho08's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  183 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    22
    Rep Power
    200
    Level
    5
    Lv. Percent
    5.72%

    Yeah I see where your coming from lol. I was at a point where I couldn't afford that! (sad to say, I sold things to pay for groceries). So I lived off my parents for 2-3weeks.
    Anywho.!!
    My refeeds about 6-8months ago were 2high/1low days
    -300g high
    -100g low.
    It was a mini lean bulk.
    Than 3-5months ago I went to
    1refeed every 5th day
    -275g high
    -75g low
    And just recently before keto it was
    High carb (not refeed) every 3day
    -225g high
    -50g low.

    I also did happen to use excessive amounts of protein 4-8months ago... 300g+
    And just 3 months I cut it down to only about 235g max.

    I'm just curious if prolonged low carbing has an effect on weight loss. I feel like it has slowed down my metabolism, because I felt lethargic and unmotivated a huge portion of the time before keto.
  11. Elite Member
    Jiigzz's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,548
    Rep Power
    4497168
    Level
    81
    Lv. Percent
    63.34%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    About 4-6 years ago. You would have laughed at those prices. In college I was getting the beef for about 1.99/lb (10lbs) and 10 dozen eggs for &7.50. I was buying in bulk but its not like I was t gonna eat it lol.
    A dozen eggs here is about $3.50; the cheapest beef here is no less than $10.00 per kg and even that is a bargain. Scotch fillet is $30 per kg

    My average weekly shop, just for myself, is >$150. Could possibly get it down to $100 if I ate smarter.
  12. Senior Member
    threeFs's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,364
    Rep Power
    768551
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    40.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Carbs are by far the cheapest of all the macros but are by far the most necessary. Keto diets are interesting, but do not result in more fat loss or weight loss than any other calorie restrictive diet; after all, energy is energy and it has to go somewhere.
    Sorry, this is totally 100% wrong.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6865776

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15148063

    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-met...#axzz2QFvz9nea

    **** more documentation available upon request ****
  13. Senior Member
    threeFs's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,364
    Rep Power
    768551
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    40.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro
  14. New Member
    Eddinho08's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  183 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    22
    Rep Power
    200
    Level
    5
    Lv. Percent
    5.72%

    This is why I love this site. Thanks man!.
    I do notice that while I'm in keto, I fatigue a lot quicker than on just a basic carb diet.
  15. Board Sponsor
    Distilled Water's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    9,811
    Rep Power
    2354473
    Level
    76
    Lv. Percent
    21.87%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddinho08 View Post
    This is why I love this site. Thanks man!.
    I do notice that while I'm in keto, I fatigue a lot quicker than on just a basic carb diet.
    That could be bc you're not really on a true keto diet. Your carbs are still pretty high for keto and consumed high rather regularly.

    I do not notice too much of a drop off once I normalize into keto. Usually 10 days & how long I usually go before my first carb up
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
  16. Senior Member
    threeFs's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,364
    Rep Power
    768551
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    40.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddinho08 View Post
    This is why I love this site. Thanks man!.
    I do notice that while I'm in keto, I fatigue a lot quicker than on just a basic carb diet.
    The thing with keto is that yes, what you mentioned is true and there are studies to also back that up (ie it's not just you who fatigues easily). This is why people say keto is gay, because of the fatigue. This is also why some studies back up that keto is detrimental to performance. BUT... science fact is also that the body takes 3-4 weeks to become fully keto-adapted, in which fatigue is replaced by MORE energy and performance. When Carb cycling (as I do as well) you don't become keto adapted and therefore do get fatigue. Many of the nay-sayer studies only test performance at or before 2 weeks keto, in which the athlete is not at all keto adapted.
    I will post more on this and glycogen fuel vs fat fuel later this weekend.
  17. Elite Member
    Jiigzz's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,548
    Rep Power
    4497168
    Level
    81
    Lv. Percent
    63.34%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    SORRY THIS IS TOTALLY 100% WRONG
    Did you read the studies you posted? Some of them are not at all relevant to your point? Read the conclusions and get back to me.

    Oh, and about Thermodynamics. Yes, a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie metaboliccaly speaking however...

    Laws of Thermodynamics and the Human Body
  18. Elite Member
    Jiigzz's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,548
    Rep Power
    4497168
    Level
    81
    Lv. Percent
    63.34%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    And here we go:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15351198
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17141367

    This one is interesting, not relevent, but is an argument for Keto vs. non keto low carb
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046


    Others
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17228046
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17904939
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12043107
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7000826
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21521539

    Most benefits of Lowcarb diet are short term, maybe because of reduced water retention which also correlates to a decrease in scale weight.

    "A 2003 meta-analysis that included randomized controlled trials found that "low-carbohydrate, non-energy-restricted diets appear to be at least as effective as low-fat, energy-restricted diets in inducing weight loss for up to 1-year "

    If you knew me at all, you would know that i'm a huge fan of low carbohydrate diets, but if you call me out with flags and ****, then I will respond.
  19. Elite Member
    Jiigzz's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,548
    Rep Power
    4497168
    Level
    81
    Lv. Percent
    63.34%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    And more, just because you annoyed me:

    Display Settings:AbstractSend to:
    Nutr Hosp. 2011 Nov-Dec;26(6):1256-9.
    Long-term efficacy of high-protein diets: a systematic review.
    Lepe M, Bacardí Gascón M, Jiménez Cruz A.
    Source
    Universidad Autónoma de Baja California, Graduate Nutrition Program, Tijuana, Baja California.
    Abstract
    The rationale for the use of high-protein diets is that they offer a higher level of satiety for a longer period of time when compared with carbohydrates or fats; this diminishes calorie consumption in the long-run. The purpose of this review was to assess the efficacy of long-term randomized clinical trials. We used Pubmed, EBSCO and SCIELO to conduct our searches. Inclusion criteria were: randomized clinical trials conducted in adults, with an intervention/follow-up of at least 24 weeks, stating the specific amount of energy protein (in percentages) in the diet; with a control group with either a conventional energy restricted diet or a high-fat/high-carbohydrate diet, also the studies should provide at least body weight or body mass index (BMI) at the beginning and at the end of the intervention. A total of 481 studies were found. Eight studies met the inclusion criteria. Weight loss difference in those with the highest weight loss with the high-protein diet ranged from 3.7 kg in a six month trial to 1.2 kg in a 17 month trial. The average weight loss of the eight studies in the high-protein diet was 6.3 kg and in the standard diet was 5.0 kg. Although half of the studies showed a higher weight loss with a high-protein diet, three out of four studies with the longest intervention show no statistical difference in weight loss. In this systematic review it was observed that the long-term effect of high-protein diets is neither consistent nor conclusive.
    PMID: 22411369 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text
    Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances

    LinkOut - more resources

    Med Clin (Barc). 2009 Feb 21;132(6):203-7. Epub 2009 Feb 12.
    [The effects of a low-fat versus a low carbohydrate diet in obese adults].
    [Article in Spanish]
    De Luis DA, Aller R, Izaola O, González Sagrado M, Conde R.
    Source
    Red temática de Investigación Corporativa en Envejecimiento RD056/0013, Instituto de Endocrinología y Nutrición, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad de Valladolid, Unidad de Investigación, Hospital Río Hortera, Valladolid, España. dadluis@yahoo.es
    Abstract
    BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVE:
    The aim of our study was to compare the effect of a high fat and a high protein diet vs a fat restricted diet on weight loss in obese patients.
    SUBJECTS AND METHODS:
    A population of 74 obesity non diabetic outpatients was analyzed in a prospective way. Patients were randomly allocated to two groups: a) diet I (low fat diet: 1500kcal/day, 52% carbohydrates, 20% proteins, 27% fats) with a distribution of fats and b) diet II (high fat and high protein diet: 1507kcal/day, 38% carbohydrates, 26% proteins, 36% fats). After three months with diet, weight, blood pressure, glucose, C reactive protein, insulin, insulin resistance, total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol, HDL-cholesterol and triglycerides were evaluated.
    RESULTS:
    There were randomized 35 patients (4 males and 31 females) in the group I and 39 patients (6 males and 33 females) in diet group II. In group I, systolic pressure, BMI, weight, fat free mass, fat mass total body water, intracellular body water and waist circumference decreased significantly. In group II, glucose, total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, systolic blood, BMI, weight, fat mass, total body water and waist circumference decreased significantly. Differences among averages of parameters before treatment with both diets were not detected. Pretty illuminating study given kcal control.

    CONCLUSIONS:
    No differences were detected on weight loss between a fat-restricted diet and a high fat and high protein enhanced diet.
  20. Senior Member
    aceroni's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,683
    Rep Power
    1115245
    Level
    55
    Lv. Percent
    12.95%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddinho08 View Post
    Yeah I see where your coming from lol. I was at a point where I couldn't afford that! (sad to say, I sold things to pay for groceries). So I lived off my parents for 2-3weeks.
    Anywho.!!
    My refeeds about 6-8months ago were 2high/1low days
    -300g high
    -100g low.
    It was a mini lean bulk.
    Than 3-5months ago I went to
    1refeed every 5th day
    -275g high
    -75g low
    And just recently before keto it was
    High carb (not refeed) every 3day
    -225g high
    -50g low.

    I also did happen to use excessive amounts of protein 4-8months ago... 300g+
    And just 3 months I cut it down to only about 235g max.

    I'm just curious if prolonged low carbing has an effect on weight loss. I feel like it has slowed down my metabolism, because I felt lethargic and unmotivated a huge portion of the time before keto.
    Prolonged low calories has a very negative effect. It can lower your metabolic rate and make losing weight even harder.
    Look up Layne Norton metabolic damage


    And from the looks of it your carbs were very low.. 230g every third day? I can eat that in two meals easy bub
  21. Senior Member
    threeFs's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,364
    Rep Power
    768551
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    40.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    I do agree that Carb restricted diets need to have periods of time where carbs are reintroduced, or cycled. From personal experience, my fat loss stalled after several months of <50g carbs/day. It was not until recently, when I started adding carbs back in one night every 5 days, that fat loss has resumed.
    But my replies and sources were showing how caloric energies differ and how Carb restriction can be effective, 2 points you specifically disagreed on.

    Edit...for some reason, I can't get any of your sources to load. I will try again later. But let's make sure we are differentiating between WEIGHT loss and FAT loss. The OP as well as many others goals are to lose adipose tissue while minimizing lean tissue loss. So it's not necessarily referencing studies that show total lbs/kgs lost.
    Edit 2.... Come on man, quoting rodent studies? Mice? And a study showing people were in a bad mood while on a modified diet?? "Waaaa ,I'm grumpy because i can't eat cookies..." come on man
    Edit 3... again, showing keto studies less than 3-4 weeks where the subjects are not fully keto adapted. Of course there's fatigue. I addressed that point already. Sorry, no arguments there.

    And the BS flags were cool and appropriate to your quoted text
  22. Elite Member
    Jiigzz's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,548
    Rep Power
    4497168
    Level
    81
    Lv. Percent
    63.34%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    I do agree that Carb restricted diets need to have periods of time where carbs are reintroduced, or cycled. From personal experience, my fat loss stalled after several months of <50g carbs/day. It was not until recently, when I started adding carbs back in one night every 5 days, that fat loss has resumed.
    But my replies and sources were showing how caloric energies differ and how Carb restriction can be effective, 2 points you specifically disagreed on.

    Edit...for some reason, I can't get any of your sources to load. I will try again later. But let's make sure we are differentiating between WEIGHT loss and FAT loss. The OP as well as many others goals are to lose adipose tissue while minimizing lean tissue loss. So it's not necessarily referencing studies that show total lbs/kgs lost.
    Edit 2.... Come on man, quoting rodent studies? Mice? And a study showing people were in a bad mood while on a modified diet?? "Waaaa ,I'm grumpy because i can't eat cookies..." come on man
    Edit 3... again, showing keto studies less than 3-4 weeks where the subjects are not fully keto adapted. Of course there's fatigue. I addressed that point already. Sorry, no arguments there.

    And the BS flags were cool and appropriate to your quoted text
    yes, metabolically different. But the thermodynamic equation still stands (the one in the article I posted). Energy can be neither created or destroyed and therefore must go somewhere. That was my point and you called me out on it; so I backed up what I said.

    Did any of your studies differentiate between fat or weight? In most cases, the general overweight population who participate in studies are not athletes or bodybuilders and therefore weight lost is usually fat loss as they have a lower muscle:fat ratio.

    You said that keto diets have a weight loss advantage over non-keto diets; or at least incinuated that position. I disagree based on the law of thermodynamics and by those studies and many more.

    If those are the only responses you have, then fine I have made and backed up my point.
  23. Senior Member
    threeFs's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,364
    Rep Power
    768551
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    40.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    No, we addressed thermodynamics. Food takes energy to break down and that process also creates body heat. 100 calories of fat only yields the body 97 calories. 100 calories of carbs only yields the body 93 calories and 100 calories of protein only yields the body 70 calories.
    Source: The Carb Nite Solution. Kiefer, J. 2005. Pg 43
  24. Senior Member
    threeFs's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,364
    Rep Power
    768551
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    40.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    yes, metabolically different. But the thermodynamic equation still stands (the one in the article I posted). Energy can be neither created or destroyed and therefore must go somewhere. That was my point and you called me out on it; so I backed up what I said.

    Did any of your studies differentiate between fat or weight? In most cases, the general overweight population who participate in studies are not athletes or bodybuilders and therefore weight lost is usually fat loss as they have a lower muscle:fat ratio.

    You said that keto diets have a weight loss advantage over non-keto diets; or at least incinuated that position. I disagree based on the law of thermodynamics and by those studies and many more.
    Also, from the same book (and sources to back that up are listed in the appendix, too many to list from typing on my phone)
    regarding calorie cutting for weight loss: "in the first two months of low-calorie dieting, about half the weight lost comes from lean tissue.....over time, this percentage drops from 25%-15%"
  25. Senior Member
    aceroni's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,683
    Rep Power
    1115245
    Level
    55
    Lv. Percent
    12.95%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post

    Also, from the same book (and sources to back that up are listed in the appendix, too many to list from typing on my phone)
    regarding calorie cutting for weight loss: "in the first two months of low-calorie dieting, about half the weight lost comes from lean tissue.....over time, this percentage drops from 25%-15%"
    This freaks me out. You're telling me any time I cut i'm losing most of my gains?
  26. Senior Member
    threeFs's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,364
    Rep Power
    768551
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    40.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by aceroni View Post

    This freaks me out. You're telling me any time I cut i'm losing most of my gains?
    Most/some depends on your perspective and how you measure (pants size, lbs on the scale, journaling of strength sets/reps/weight, etc)
    This is also why the whole idea of bulk/cut is mullarkey (at least 'dirty' bulk. The classic book, "Ripped," by Clarence Bass addresses that topic with extensive lab results.
  27. Senior Member
    aceroni's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,683
    Rep Power
    1115245
    Level
    55
    Lv. Percent
    12.95%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post

    Most/some depends on your perspective and how you measure (pants size, lbs on the scale, journaling of strength sets/reps/weight, etc)
    This is also why the whole idea of bulk/cut is mullarkey (at least 'dirty' bulk. The classic book, "Ripped," by Clarence Bass addresses that topic with extensive lab results.
    Uhh I go by scale and mirror, mostly mirror. I've been training for about 8yrs bodybuilding for 5 of those. I know my body and can tell differences in mirror pretty well.

    I agree that as a natural athlete, bulking and cutting aren't necessarily the best option, but being that I have the metabolism of a humming bird, I have to eat ridiculous amounts of calories to gain.. Sometimes the only way to get them all in is to throw a cheat in there
  28. Senior Member
    threeFs's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,364
    Rep Power
    768551
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    40.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by aceroni View Post

    This freaks me out. You're telling me any time I cut i'm losing most of my gains?
    Also depends on the methodology of your cut
  29. Senior Member
    aceroni's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2,683
    Rep Power
    1115245
    Level
    55
    Lv. Percent
    12.95%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post

    Also depends on the methodology of your cut
    I tend to do carb /calorie cycling

    three high days one medium three low days
  30. Elite Member
    Jiigzz's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,548
    Rep Power
    4497168
    Level
    81
    Lv. Percent
    63.34%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    No, we addressed thermodynamics. Food takes energy to break down and that process also creates body heat. 100 calories of fat only yields the body 97 calories. 100 calories of carbs only yields the body 93 calories and 100 calories of protein only yields the body 70 calories.
    Source: The Carb Nite Solution. Kiefer, J. 2005. Pg 43
    Yes, that is metabolic variance and the use of the individual macronutrients and the roles they have in the body; but thermodynamics is what I was referring to. Whilst the simple equation is far from accruate and doesn't differentiate between open and closed systems, in its most simple form it does not allow for metabolic variance bteween macro nutrients. But again, energy is neither created nor destroted, only transformed and that energy has to go somewhere which is exactly what I said.
  31. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    30
    Posts
    8,997
    Rep Power
    2646730
    Level
    80
    Lv. Percent
    78.18%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Oh how I love a good carb discussion thread

    I haven't read all the post yet. Will post later
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  32. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    30
    Posts
    8,997
    Rep Power
    2646730
    Level
    80
    Lv. Percent
    78.18%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post

    Oh, and about Thermodynamics. Yes, a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie metaboliccaly speaking however...

    Laws of Thermodynamics and the Human Body
    My understanding is that the laws of thermodynamics do not apply to the human body (open system vs closed system) I have a thread on CS on this very topic
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  33. Board Sponsor
    Distilled Water's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    9,811
    Rep Power
    2354473
    Level
    76
    Lv. Percent
    21.87%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Oh how I love a good carb discussion thread

    I haven't read all the post yet. Will post later
    No need, I'm right. Like always
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
  34. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    30
    Posts
    8,997
    Rep Power
    2646730
    Level
    80
    Lv. Percent
    78.18%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    Keto diets are not very expensive.

    1lb 80/20 ground beef: $3.50
    1 dozen eggs: $1.75
    4TBS Olive Oil: ~$0.50
    2 scoops Protein: ~$1.00
    Total: $6.75

    Rough Macros (p/f/c) 200/200/&lt;30 &amp; about 2,600 cals total

    That's a day of food for someone your size goals. Cheaper if you can buy in bulk. Chicken is usually cheaper than beef so cut cost there and add more olive oil. Canned tuna is another option also.
    Oh you make it seem so simple. Kinda makes me want to utalize keto for my summer prep work.

    Question, is the above a typical day for you or just an example?

    One of my problems with keto is it becomes monotonous fairly quickly and I end up slipping up and when following keto I develop this mindset of, well I already had a little bit of carbs on the chicken so I might as well make today a refeed day and then I hate myself
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  35. Senior Member
    threeFs's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Age
    36
    Posts
    2,364
    Rep Power
    768551
    Level
    48
    Lv. Percent
    40.63%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    and then I hate myself
    There's medicine for that...lol
  36. Board Sponsor
    Distilled Water's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    9,811
    Rep Power
    2354473
    Level
    76
    Lv. Percent
    21.87%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post

    Oh you make it seem so simple. Kinda makes me want to utalize keto for my summer prep work.

    Question, is the above a typical day for you or just an example?

    One of my problems with keto is it becomes monotonous fairly quickly and I end up slipping up and when following keto I develop this mindset of, well I already had a little bit of carbs on the chicken so I might as well make today a refeed day and then I hate myself
    Well it is simple, practical is another story, as you pointed out ;-)

    Yeah, that's rather typical. Occasionally I'll get crazy and make some keto pancakes with protein sludge when I'm really craving something and its not a refeed. Carbs for this are still under 15 for everything and it usually hits the spot.

    Also adding some cheese & saricha (sp?) to meals is like a treat sometimes.

    The first 2 weeks are always the hardest. I'm going to try and utilize some 5-HTP to help with evening carb cravings. Science behind looks ok and a lot of old school cats swear by it, it's inexpensive so I figure why not?
    Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
  37. Elite Member
    Jiigzz's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,548
    Rep Power
    4497168
    Level
    81
    Lv. Percent
    63.34%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    My understanding is that the laws of thermodynamics do not apply to the human body (open system vs closed system) I have a thread on CS on this very topic
    I read the threads, that article was posted by someone else on one of the topics. I think someone argued pretty well that the law does apply but isn't as simplistic as energy in= energy out= weight maintainence.

    Phys and ras reached common ground that the caloric balance hypothesis was flawed but the law of thermodynamics still applys to open and closed systems, at least for the most part. I found that discussion rather interesting
  38. Elite Member
    Jiigzz's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    5,548
    Rep Power
    4497168
    Level
    81
    Lv. Percent
    63.34%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProActivity VeteranPosting ProPosting Authority

    What do you think of this study JJ?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046

    it has a relatively small sample size group but still intersting results. I'm not sure if I agree with their conclusion that the use of keto diets for weight loss is not warranted; but still interesting for low carb non keto and keto.
  39. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    30
    Posts
    8,997
    Rep Power
    2646730
    Level
    80
    Lv. Percent
    78.18%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post

    The first 2 weeks are always the hardest. I'm going to try and utilize some 5-HTP to help with evening carb cravings. Science behind looks ok and a lot of old school cats swear by it, it's inexpensive so I figure why not?
    What?!?! This is something I struggle with (carb craving) so how do I not know about this connection. Got any links to some reading on this?
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  40. Pro Virili Parte
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Age
    30
    Posts
    8,997
    Rep Power
    2646730
    Level
    80
    Lv. Percent
    78.18%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    What do you think of this study JJ?

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16685046

    it has a relatively small sample size group but still intersting results. I'm not sure if I agree with their conclusion that the use of keto diets for weight loss is not warranted; but still interesting for low carb non keto and keto.
    I will see if I can pull up the full text and give you my thoughts but generally I would say that ALL diets utilizing a caloric deficit and maintaining optimal protein and fat intake will give roughly the same results and to declare one superior will be based off individual preference such as for same it is easier to just cut a macro then to worry about balancing all 3 intake (which is one of the reasons I usually recommend a keto approach first) or similar to how some might prefer IF over 8 meals a day or vice versa.

    What one finds easier to stick with is going to be what's best as long as pro and fat intakes in range
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Grits.....good or bad carb????
    By Bildo_21 in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 02-26-2008, 03:06 AM
  2. Carb Grams per day and fat Grams per day
    By mannyf50 in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-27-2007, 04:32 PM
  3. No carbs 1hr b/f and 1hr after HGH??
    By FullyBuilt in forum IGF-1/GH
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-24-2004, 12:51 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in