Carbs carbs carbs carbs and less carbs or more carbs.
- 04-11-2013, 05:14 PM
Carbs carbs carbs carbs and less carbs or more carbs.
As the title says this is about carbsssss!!. So a quick question, can low carbing for too long affect fat loss?. I've been carb cycling for over 8 months, and usually stay at about 150g per day and refeeds were 300-400g. (keep in mind this is the average amount, I did vary and have 0 carbs at times).
Reason?.. Because I was trying to lean out, but situations arose where it set me back on my diet.
(broke college student for example).
At the moment, I switched to keto at 2000-2100cal
Carb/protein/fat- 25g/175g/133g- 26g/183g/140g
I'm at 201lbs and I'm 5'9"
- 04-11-2013, 09:44 PM
How long have you been on keto? I am not a fan of keto diets, I'll just say that outright. Anything that is too restrictive for too long will not end well. I am unsure of how being a broke college student would hinder your ability to eat carbohydrates, though. That is a serious question, not a mean one, I promise! I just don't see why you can't eat carbohydrates on a budget. If you're talking about food and nourishing yourself, it's worth it. I have never been and will never be an advocate of a diet that virtually eliminates an entire macronutrient group. It is not substantial, nor is it healthy. Might it work for fat loss? Sure. But it's not sustainable and it's not good for you, in my very honest opinion.iForce Nutrition Representative - iTrain. iCompete. iDominate
- 04-11-2013, 09:55 PM
That's true. I would like to reintroduce carbs once I'm out of keto. I've been in CKD for about 3 weeks now. It only took me 4days to undergo the induction phase of keto since I've been low carbing so long.
As for $$. Let's just leave it at this.
Govt decided to take all my resources from my personal bank acct , a levy and literally left me broke.
Only food I could eat was that my parents had, and it's not what we call clean necessarily (few fruits/veg. Lots of cereal, top ramen, cheap meats.)
I did manage to stay fairly lean during that situation.
04-11-2013, 10:02 PM
I'm sorry to hear that. Friggin' government.
iForce Nutrition Representative - iTrain. iCompete. iDominate
04-11-2013, 10:34 PM
Carbs are by far the cheapest of all the macros but are by far the most necessary. Keto diets are interesting, but do not result in more fat loss or weight loss than any other calorie restrictive diet; after all, energy is energy and it has to go somewhere.
In saying that, I have nothing against low carb diets especially if you maintain eating starches (to prevent alpha amylase downregulation).
04-11-2013, 10:52 PM
Keto diets are not very expensive.
1lb 80/20 ground beef: $3.50
1 dozen eggs: $1.75
4TBS Olive Oil: ~$0.50
2 scoops Protein: ~$1.00
Rough Macros (p/f/c) 200/200/<30 & about 2,600 cals total
That's a day of food for someone your size goals. Cheaper if you can buy in bulk. Chicken is usually cheaper than beef so cut cost there and add more olive oil. Canned tuna is another option also.
Back to your original question. How are your carbs & re-feed scheduled? Typically people 6 days of <30carbs and have a carb day on the 7th. The carb day is lower in fat and high in carbs. Usually 4-600. This carb up helps keep leptin, thyroid and insulin functioning properly as they can get out of whack from being in a deficit for too long.
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
04-11-2013, 11:02 PM
04-11-2013, 11:07 PM
04-11-2013, 11:51 PM
Ya this but I wouldn't do olive oil. Especially the 7 day refeeds and under 30 grams of carbs a day. This is of course if you are still trying to cut.Originally Posted by Distilled Water
04-12-2013, 01:54 AM
Yeah I see where your coming from lol. I was at a point where I couldn't afford that! (sad to say, I sold things to pay for groceries). So I lived off my parents for 2-3weeks.
My refeeds about 6-8months ago were 2high/1low days
It was a mini lean bulk.
Than 3-5months ago I went to
1refeed every 5th day
And just recently before keto it was
High carb (not refeed) every 3day
I also did happen to use excessive amounts of protein 4-8months ago... 300g+
And just 3 months I cut it down to only about 235g max.
I'm just curious if prolonged low carbing has an effect on weight loss. I feel like it has slowed down my metabolism, because I felt lethargic and unmotivated a huge portion of the time before keto.
04-12-2013, 03:22 AM
04-12-2013, 10:54 AM
**** more documentation available upon request ****
04-12-2013, 11:02 AM
04-12-2013, 07:17 PM
This is why I love this site. Thanks man!.
I do notice that while I'm in keto, I fatigue a lot quicker than on just a basic carb diet.
04-12-2013, 07:22 PM
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
04-12-2013, 07:47 PM
I will post more on this and glycogen fuel vs fat fuel later this weekend.
04-12-2013, 11:40 PM
Did you read the studies you posted? Some of them are not at all relevant to your point? Read the conclusions and get back to me.
Oh, and about Thermodynamics. Yes, a calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie metaboliccaly speaking however...
Laws of Thermodynamics and the Human Body
04-12-2013, 11:45 PM
And here we go:
This one is interesting, not relevent, but is an argument for Keto vs. non keto low carb
Most benefits of Lowcarb diet are short term, maybe because of reduced water retention which also correlates to a decrease in scale weight.
"A 2003 meta-analysis that included randomized controlled trials found that "low-carbohydrate, non-energy-restricted diets appear to be at least as effective as low-fat, energy-restricted diets in inducing weight loss for up to 1-year "
If you knew me at all, you would know that i'm a huge fan of low carbohydrate diets, but if you call me out with flags and ****, then I will respond.
04-13-2013, 12:18 AM
And more, just because you annoyed me:
Display Settings:AbstractSend to:
Nutr Hosp. 2011 Nov-Dec;26(6):1256-9.
Long-term efficacy of high-protein diets: a systematic review.
Lepe M, Bacardí Gascón M, Jiménez Cruz A.
Universidad Autónoma de Baja California, Graduate Nutrition Program, Tijuana, Baja California.
The rationale for the use of high-protein diets is that they offer a higher level of satiety for a longer period of time when compared with carbohydrates or fats; this diminishes calorie consumption in the long-run. The purpose of this review was to assess the efficacy of long-term randomized clinical trials. We used Pubmed, EBSCO and SCIELO to conduct our searches. Inclusion criteria were: randomized clinical trials conducted in adults, with an intervention/follow-up of at least 24 weeks, stating the specific amount of energy protein (in percentages) in the diet; with a control group with either a conventional energy restricted diet or a high-fat/high-carbohydrate diet, also the studies should provide at least body weight or body mass index (BMI) at the beginning and at the end of the intervention. A total of 481 studies were found. Eight studies met the inclusion criteria. Weight loss difference in those with the highest weight loss with the high-protein diet ranged from 3.7 kg in a six month trial to 1.2 kg in a 17 month trial. The average weight loss of the eight studies in the high-protein diet was 6.3 kg and in the standard diet was 5.0 kg. Although half of the studies showed a higher weight loss with a high-protein diet, three out of four studies with the longest intervention show no statistical difference in weight loss. In this systematic review it was observed that the long-term effect of high-protein diets is neither consistent nor conclusive.
PMID: 22411369 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text
Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances
LinkOut - more resources
Med Clin (Barc). 2009 Feb 21;132(6):203-7. Epub 2009 Feb 12.
[The effects of a low-fat versus a low carbohydrate diet in obese adults].
[Article in Spanish]
De Luis DA, Aller R, Izaola O, González Sagrado M, Conde R.
Red temática de Investigación Corporativa en Envejecimiento RD056/0013, Instituto de Endocrinología y Nutrición, Facultad de Medicina, Universidad de Valladolid, Unidad de Investigación, Hospital Río Hortera, Valladolid, España. firstname.lastname@example.org
BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVE:
The aim of our study was to compare the effect of a high fat and a high protein diet vs a fat restricted diet on weight loss in obese patients.
SUBJECTS AND METHODS:
A population of 74 obesity non diabetic outpatients was analyzed in a prospective way. Patients were randomly allocated to two groups: a) diet I (low fat diet: 1500kcal/day, 52% carbohydrates, 20% proteins, 27% fats) with a distribution of fats and b) diet II (high fat and high protein diet: 1507kcal/day, 38% carbohydrates, 26% proteins, 36% fats). After three months with diet, weight, blood pressure, glucose, C reactive protein, insulin, insulin resistance, total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol, HDL-cholesterol and triglycerides were evaluated.
There were randomized 35 patients (4 males and 31 females) in the group I and 39 patients (6 males and 33 females) in diet group II. In group I, systolic pressure, BMI, weight, fat free mass, fat mass total body water, intracellular body water and waist circumference decreased significantly. In group II, glucose, total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, systolic blood, BMI, weight, fat mass, total body water and waist circumference decreased significantly. Differences among averages of parameters before treatment with both diets were not detected. Pretty illuminating study given kcal control.
No differences were detected on weight loss between a fat-restricted diet and a high fat and high protein enhanced diet.
04-13-2013, 03:32 AM
04-13-2013, 04:18 AM
I do agree that Carb restricted diets need to have periods of time where carbs are reintroduced, or cycled. From personal experience, my fat loss stalled after several months of <50g carbs/day. It was not until recently, when I started adding carbs back in one night every 5 days, that fat loss has resumed.
But my replies and sources were showing how caloric energies differ and how Carb restriction can be effective, 2 points you specifically disagreed on.
Edit...for some reason, I can't get any of your sources to load. I will try again later. But let's make sure we are differentiating between WEIGHT loss and FAT loss. The OP as well as many others goals are to lose adipose tissue while minimizing lean tissue loss. So it's not necessarily referencing studies that show total lbs/kgs lost.
Edit 2.... Come on man, quoting rodent studies? Mice? And a study showing people were in a bad mood while on a modified diet?? "Waaaa ,I'm grumpy because i can't eat cookies..." come on man
Edit 3... again, showing keto studies less than 3-4 weeks where the subjects are not fully keto adapted. Of course there's fatigue. I addressed that point already. Sorry, no arguments there.
And the BS flags were cool and appropriate to your quoted text
04-13-2013, 07:22 AM
Did any of your studies differentiate between fat or weight? In most cases, the general overweight population who participate in studies are not athletes or bodybuilders and therefore weight lost is usually fat loss as they have a lower muscle:fat ratio.
You said that keto diets have a weight loss advantage over non-keto diets; or at least incinuated that position. I disagree based on the law of thermodynamics and by those studies and many more.
If those are the only responses you have, then fine I have made and backed up my point.
04-13-2013, 08:18 AM
No, we addressed thermodynamics. Food takes energy to break down and that process also creates body heat. 100 calories of fat only yields the body 97 calories. 100 calories of carbs only yields the body 93 calories and 100 calories of protein only yields the body 70 calories.
Source: The Carb Nite Solution. Kiefer, J. 2005. Pg 43
04-13-2013, 08:24 AM
regarding calorie cutting for weight loss: "in the first two months of low-calorie dieting, about half the weight lost comes from lean tissue.....over time, this percentage drops from 25%-15%"
04-13-2013, 01:33 PM
04-13-2013, 02:22 PM
This is also why the whole idea of bulk/cut is mullarkey (at least 'dirty' bulk. The classic book, "Ripped," by Clarence Bass addresses that topic with extensive lab results.
04-13-2013, 02:25 PM
I agree that as a natural athlete, bulking and cutting aren't necessarily the best option, but being that I have the metabolism of a humming bird, I have to eat ridiculous amounts of calories to gain.. Sometimes the only way to get them all in is to throw a cheat in there
04-13-2013, 02:30 PM
04-13-2013, 02:32 PM
04-14-2013, 04:08 AM
04-14-2013, 07:15 AM
Oh how I love a good carb discussion thread
I haven't read all the post yet. Will post later
04-14-2013, 07:17 AM
04-14-2013, 07:50 AM
04-14-2013, 08:08 AM
Question, is the above a typical day for you or just an example?
One of my problems with keto is it becomes monotonous fairly quickly and I end up slipping up and when following keto I develop this mindset of, well I already had a little bit of carbs on the chicken so I might as well make today a refeed day and then I hate myself
04-14-2013, 08:18 AM
04-14-2013, 03:42 PM
Yeah, that's rather typical. Occasionally I'll get crazy and make some keto pancakes with protein sludge when I'm really craving something and its not a refeed. Carbs for this are still under 15 for everything and it usually hits the spot.
Also adding some cheese & saricha (sp?) to meals is like a treat sometimes.
The first 2 weeks are always the hardest. I'm going to try and utilize some 5-HTP to help with evening carb cravings. Science behind looks ok and a lot of old school cats swear by it, it's inexpensive so I figure why not?
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
04-14-2013, 05:58 PM
Phys and ras reached common ground that the caloric balance hypothesis was flawed but the law of thermodynamics still applys to open and closed systems, at least for the most part. I found that discussion rather interesting
04-14-2013, 06:03 PM
What do you think of this study JJ?
it has a relatively small sample size group but still intersting results. I'm not sure if I agree with their conclusion that the use of keto diets for weight loss is not warranted; but still interesting for low carb non keto and keto.
04-14-2013, 08:46 PM
04-14-2013, 08:53 PM
What one finds easier to stick with is going to be what's best as long as pro and fat intakes in range
Similar Forum Threads
- By Bildo_21 in forum Nutrition / HealthReplies: 20Last Post: 02-26-2008, 01:06 AM
- By mannyf50 in forum Weight LossReplies: 3Last Post: 06-27-2007, 02:32 PM
- By FullyBuilt in forum IGF-1/GHReplies: 5Last Post: 12-23-2004, 10:51 PM