Low Carb too Long?

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    Low Carb too Long?


    Background:The first 20+ years of my life I was raised as a vegetarian. Very little protein and lots and lots of carbs. Pasta, cakes, brownies, bagels, pb&J, chips and diet soda. I've had love handles since I was 10-11 years old and have struggled with my bodyfat ever since. I started eating meat when I was about 22 and drank like a college kid from age 19-26. I have weighed around 185-200 for most of my adult life but ballooned up to 255 about 5 years ago (engagement, wedding, baby, stress). I learned about carbs and ketogenic dieting and have dropped my weight to about 197lbs and 17% bodyfat. I have lifted for 10 years and done HIIT for the last 2 or so.
    I imagine I have been insulin resistant for many years because I've had love handles since my youth. Even now, I have love handles and my fat loss has stalled for the last year or so.
    My fasting blood sugar is 99 but my insulin was <2. Total cholesterol is also low at 126. Testoserone is (low per M.D.) 517 on 100 mg/week tesy cyp. He wants it to be around 800.
    My anti-aging doc recommended that I meet with a nutritionist because he feels I am pre-diabetic.
    My research so far tells me perhaps I've been too low carb for too long and thus stalled my fat loss? Not even running Clen seems to help with weight loss now. Does overtraining play a role in these low levels? I was training 6-7 days a week and burning 700-1100 calories in 80 minutes (heart rate monitor). I've decided to take 2 days off starting this week, but same intensity workouts.
    Using a calorie tracker, my daily macros have been around 50g carbs, 100g fat, 300g protein.
    I have been waiting my whole life for some good answers and just now at age 34 I feel like I'm starting to get somewhere. Any thoughts?

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    Meh, with those Marco splits, you're not really on a keto. Do you ever carb up? What's weight lifting routine look like?

    What's you daily diet look like?
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    Background:The first 20+ years of my life I was raised as a vegetarian. Very little protein and lots and lots of carbs. Pasta, cakes, brownies, bagels, pb&amp;J, chips and diet soda. I've had love handles since I was 10-11 years old and have struggled with my bodyfat ever since. I started eating meat when I was about 22 and drank like a college kid from age 19-26. I have weighed around 185-200 for most of my adult life but ballooned up to 255 about 5 years ago (engagement, wedding, baby, stress). I learned about carbs and ketogenic dieting and have dropped my weight to about 197lbs and 17% bodyfat. I have lifted for 10 years and done HIIT for the last 2 or so.
    I imagine I have been insulin resistant for many years because I've had love handles since my youth. Even now, I have love handles and my fat loss has stalled for the last year or so.
    My fasting blood sugar is 99 but my insulin was &lt;2. Total cholesterol is also low at 126. Testoserone is (low per M.D.) 517 on 100 mg/week tesy cyp. He wants it to be around 800.
    My anti-aging doc recommended that I meet with a nutritionist because he feels I am pre-diabetic.
    My research so far tells me perhaps I've been too low carb for too long and thus stalled my fat loss? Not even running Clen seems to help with weight loss now. Does overtraining play a role in these low levels? I was training 6-7 days a week and burning 700-1100 calories in 80 minutes (heart rate monitor). I've decided to take 2 days off starting this week, but same intensity workouts.
    Using a calorie tracker, my daily macros have been around 50g carbs, 100g fat, 300g protein.
    I have been waiting my whole life for some good answers and just now at age 34 I feel like I'm starting to get somewhere. Any thoughts?
    Do you have scheduled cheats or refeeds per week?

    Also have you stepped down your caloric intake when fatloss or weightloss has stalled?
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    Agreed on coments below AND ......did your DR do his job and run a comprehensive blood assay/analysis on you?

    You woud be wise to check your thyroid activity as an underlying problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    Meh, with those Marco splits, you're not really on a keto. Do you ever carb up? What's weight lifting routine look like?

    What's you daily diet look like?
    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    Do you have scheduled cheats or refeeds per week?

    Also have you stepped down your caloric intake when fatloss or weightloss has stalled?
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    I haven't really been having scheduled refeeds or carb ups. I guess I am afraid of gaining more fat? But I will start that carb-up today. Training has been 8-10 minutes on the stairs then squats, plyo jumps, pull ups, rows, jump rope, tabata sprints pushing the treadmill, stairs + 60lbs, handstand pushups. I've laid off chest for awhile because my left shoulder is inflamed and pushes make it worse. I used to do dips + 75-90lbs, 275lb decline and 250 flat.
    Daily diet has been basically
    60g protein shake preworkout 430am
    60g protein shake post workout
    chicken breast + beef jerky for lunch
    3-4 T peanut butter and protein pudding snack
    dinner spinach + chicken breast + olive oil or blue cheese
    25g casein + 2T peanut butter

    Just about last week I started intermittent fasting for 16 hours/day from 630pm-1030am. That means fasted workout pre&post since I train at 5am. But I'm not sure if that's a good idea either. Just wanted to change something up
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whacked View Post
    Agreed on coments below AND ......did your DR do his job and run a comprehensive blood assay/analysis on you?

    You woud be wise to check your thyroid activity as an underlying problem
    yes, total comprehensive bloodwork + cortisol. 10 vials. He said thyroid function is acceptable but my results aren't online just yet. I will post them when they are up
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    If you haven't had a good carbup in awhile that could be the reason your weightloss has stalled. If I was you I'd go out and have 600g+ of carbs simple and complex. I remember kleen saying a little while ago about restoring leptin levels you can carbup with like 1200g of carbs over a 36 hour period. Either way by the sounds a carbup is overdue waay overdue.
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    Whats your total caloric intake for the day?

    More than likely your problem is you have been calorie deficient for too long
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    Definitely implement a refeed/carb up.

    Also you need to track your macros in order to subtract from some things (macros) so once weightloss has stalled you can ensure it continues.
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    OK so time for more carbs.
    Even though too many bad carbs for too many years got me where I am I suppose the body is more complicated than the all or nothing approach.
    Total calories averaged around 1900/day which is probably too little as well.
    I was just reading how pre workout drinks can enable people (like myself) to over train, so that is probably another factor.
    So..more carbs, but to be honest I don't even know where to begin. I mean, aren't all carbs just broken down into sugar regardless of being simple or complex? So why does it matter then, and what are the best carbs to eat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    OK so time for more carbs.
    Even though too many bad carbs for too many years got me where I am I suppose the body is more complicated than the all or nothing approach.
    Total calories averaged around 1900/day which is probably too little as well.
    I was just reading how pre workout drinks can enable people (like myself) to over train, so that is probably another factor.
    So..more carbs, but to be honest I don't even know where to begin. I mean, aren't all carbs just broken down into sugar regardless of being simple or complex? So why does it matter then, and what are the best carbs to eat?
    I was in the same boat prior to working out. If i dont control my eating i still go back to that "look", but one day with an hour or so window and eating as many carbs as possible will not make you fat. You will hold water (which will go away) but that does NOT mean your getting fat.

    Also what bf % would you say your at? 1900 calories is lowER but not crazy low and i can almost guaruntee the reason weightloss has stalled is because you havnt cut calories down to facilitate more weightloss.

    Also stop thinking about over training. So many people overthink that.
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    Not so much more carbs on a day to day basis but more carbs on one day ie refeed day when your depleted after a week of low carbs you can have a mix of simple and complex carbs to replenish your glycogen stores and it won't go to fat. The reason you steer clear of simple carbs usually is due to the insulin spike it gives you but on your refeed day it doesn't really matter
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    good stuff guys, thank you all
    it's mentally tough since i've had love handles my whole life and they don't seem to change. Even though I have some abs definition in the front the sides just hang there. fkn gross
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    Here's my labs. Still waiting on the cortisol. I've been reading that low carb may be the reason for the super low insulin but pre-diabetic fasting blood sugar?
    The doc said Vit. D, zinc, and magnesium are low, as well as Total Test and DHT.
    He told me to meet with a dietitian and take alpha lipoic acid. Up the test cyp to 120/wk and recheck in 4 weeks.

    EDIT.... The rinky-dink operation that did my bloodwork did not attach cortisol times to results. They also only sent me 3/4 results. But if I am normal, the results will be highest in the morning and lowest at night. The results I have are:
    .26, .09, .08 (mcg/dL)




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    Some thoughts.

    * number one, it's possible that you are inventing the problem yourself to a certain degree.
    here's what i mean: eating a low-carb diet WILL make you look deflated and flabby. so will excessive low-intensity cardio.
    with the macros that you've described here, it's possible that 50% of your problem is simply that you're evaluating yourself at the worst possible time. if you are looking in the mirror after eating less than 100 grams of carbohydrates/day and, in your words, "burning 700-1100 calories" through low-intensity** cardio, then OF COURSE you're going to look like utter craptasticful sweet mercy of jesus.
    try eating 1-2 days of a lower-fat, higher-carb diet, with less salt and/or a diuretic (anywhere from caffeine to an actual diuretic pill), and only then do the whole "mirror, mirror on the wall" thing. you may be pleased, at least more than you've been thus far.
    (** if you can do it for 80 minutes, then it's low intensity.)

    * dude, you are eating way too much protein for the workout schedule you have described. 300g would be appropriate if you were lifting like a madman, but, with the workout you've listed here, it's possible (ironically) that some of those calories, especially the whey shakes, are acting as "empty calories".
    you could probably eliminate one of the whey shakes/day without much in the way of adverse effects. ymmv, but you should try it.

    * you should try more of a "zigzag" diet.
    the problem with any constant macros is that they are, well, constant -- meaning that your body will habituate to them. once that happens, it's bad news in terms of trying to make any further progress.
    so, instead, try random permutations of low-carb, medium-carb, and high-carb days (don't go ape****, by "high carb" i'm still talking like 250 grams). ideally, the high-carb days should occur either on workout days or immediately afterward.

    * finally, at the risk of being overly blunt, it seems you may be guilty of manufacturing some of the stress that made you gain weight.
    here's what i mean:
    you wrote that "engagement, wedding, baby" were three stressors that caused you to gain weight.
    now the last one, i totally feel you, i'm there too.
    but, the first two?
    look dude, "engagement" should not be stressful -- it just shouldn't. at. all. unless you're a montague and she's a capulet, which is doubtful. otherwise, engagement should be nothing, apart from a nice excuse to start making her do all the nasty things she's been saving for The One (that's you).
    and, "wedding"? that can be stressful... for women. for us dudes, it's basically something where we absent-mindedly nod "hmm, yes" when she shows us color palettes, suddenly realize 5 days ahead of time that we need to call a tux place, show up, get gloriously tipsy, mingle, and then have repeated sexual debauchery in the honeymoon suite while all the little people get to clean stuff up. and, maybe, if we're the modern type, write a check.
    if, on the other hand, "engagement" and "wedding" really WERE stressful, then that suggests that you may just be too reactive to her random womanly vicissitudes of emotional whimsy. see, if you just basically ignore all of her moods and/or respond the way you would to a twelve-year-old (except in the case of things that are actually really serious, but those are rare), then you'll be happier, she'll be hornier, and everyone will win.

    * if your shoulder hurts, consider a rehabilitation program.
    if you have done too much "typical American lifting" (i.e., the ratio of chest:back in your workouts is a lot : a little), then, well, your back muscles probably suck.
    in that case, you should do more back -- but probably not the exercises that you had in mind. instead, you should do more of the back exercises that round out the stability of the shoulder joint. stuff like lying face down on the bench, taking 5-pound girly dumbbells (or even just your bare arms, at first), locking your elbows, and lifting them behind your back for 15-20 reps. do 3-4 sets with your arms perpendicular to your back, and 3-4 sets with your arms overhead as far as your flexibility will allow.
    (this will HURT, embarrassingly much so, if you have never done it before.)
    after a few weeks of this, if you are not a former professional baseball player, your shoulder pain should be gone.

    good luck, and keep fighting the good fight.
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    dude, i just saw your labs. holy hypothyroid, batman -- you need to take levothyroxine, f***ing STAT.

    your t4 level is 0.9, compared to the laughable "normal" range of 0.8-1.8.
    see, this is one of those hormones for which the supposed “reference” range is just a joke. (for another such example, note that the “reference” range for free test starts at 250, which, for non-senior citizens, is actually well into the hypogonadal zone.)
    your t4 should be *at least* at the high end of that range, preferably a little higher. just monitor your TSH and make sure it doesn't drop to zero.

    your estradiol is also pretty high. consider an aromatase inhibitor -- those are normally part of PCT, but see if your doc will just give you an rx for one.
    in fact, you may just want to go ahead and run a "PCT" as though you had just finished a cycle, even if you haven't done a cycle. that should do a lot as far as correcting some of the hormonal imbalances.

    if you take care of these two factors, you should be chillin.

    also. go to a drugstore and spend a few bucks on the following.
    * vitamin D3. try to take 10,000 iu per day.
    * vitamin A. try to take 50,000 to 70,000 iu per day (that's going to be 6 to 9 softgels a day). this is going to do wonders for your immune system, and, in turn, all that stuff that your immune system governs indirectly. (a lot of stress, and resultant hormone levels, is simply due to an exhausted immune system. you may be surprised how much you can improve by just starting to pop 4-5 softgels of vitamin A when you wake up and then another 2-4 softgels in the evening.)
    * N-acetyl-cysteine ("NAC"). this is a bit harder to find, but you can always order it on the internet if you can't get it locally. good stuff for your lipid profile and mood, among MANY other things, if you are eating that kind of diet.

    god bless you, man, a lot of what you're going through sounds annoyingly familiar.
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    Awesome man, I appreciate your input. As far as the stress and all that wedding stuff, that was 5 years ago. The main point with that background info was that I've had love handles my whole life, regardless of my weight. And even when I went from 200 to 255 to 197 in the past couple years, I still carry fat specifically/only in the love handles.

    My workouts are the opposite of low intensity. My heart rate averages 75-85%. That's part of my frustration. I drink pwo drinks for the stim and focus and workout as hard as I can.

    I did bloods but stopped my multi and D a couple days before just to see my base levels. So they may/should be a bit higher usually.

    I will look into the supps you mentioned and the thyroid supp. I do have most of a bottle of erase pro so perhaps I will run that until my next blood check in 4 weeks.

    I guess the bottom line for me is that low Carb/high exercise has not reduced the love handles, and hopefully the supplements and test cyp and Carb cycling will be the solution. But low T4 also makes you gain fat so I will ask the doctor about it asap.

    thanks again
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    hey, here's some other stuff to think about. this is a very familiar situation, both from my own experiences and from those of my friends.


    * the t4 level is a good litmus test for your doctor. if he thinks t4 = 0.9 is ok, fire him and find a new doc.


    * as far as the love handles are concerned.
    1/
    that may just be the way you are. not to say that you can't get rid of them, but they may be the very last thing to go. you may have to get absolutely shredded before they go down at all.
    you might even have an "awkward stage" during which your front abs are pretty sliced but you still have shakira hips. (sartorial tip: if you get to this point, do not, i repeat do not, wear workout shirts that are too fitted.)
    2/
    second, your skin might just be looser there, from whatever lifelong pattern of fat accumulation. when it comes to love handles, it can be surprisingly hard to differentiate between excess fat and loose skin.
    to determine, try on a pair of jeans a size too small (you can button them, but sitting down is hard). then, see what happens to your obliques. if the jeans push them into gentle curves like a woman's, above the waistline, then that's actual body fat that you can lose. if your skin hangs limply downward, then you've just got too much skin, and that's that.

    in the latter case you can still get ripped -- and you can camouflage the extra skin by destroying your obliques in your ab workouts -- but it won't completely go away (and you'll still have to think twice about fitted t-shirts).




    - about the cardio, the numbers doesn't smell right.
    you said 700-1100 calories burned in 80 minutes. that's only 500-800 cal/hour, which isdefinitely NOT "high intensity". if you are at 75-85% of peak hr for the whole time, these #s are nonsense.
    just as a reference -- on days when i have about an hour's worth of business calls to make, i'll get on the treadmill, with my phone and a good noise cancelling mic headset, and walk up a slight incline (10-11%) at about 2.5 mph while i make the phone calls. (i work from home.) needless to say, this is not high intensity; i don't even breathe hard, and as far as my clients can tell i'm just chillin on the couch. even that burns 600-700 calories per hour, or 800-950 calories in 80 minutes. and, i weigh 20 lbs less than you. you do the math.
    so, the question is, where are you getting these numbers?
    - if you KNOW that's your actual burn rate (as in, "you did the math with your food diary"), then your thyroid problem is basically an emergency.
    - on the other hand, if that's just what the treadmill says, you're probably burning more. (if your treadmill doesn't let you input your weight, it will assume you weigh only 140-150 pounds.)





    - finally, how confident are you that your macros and calories are accurate?
    i ask this for two reasons. first, your given macros are perfectly round numbers (50, 100, and 300), which just seems too good to be true -- makes them seem like ballpark guesses. second, most people just don't think about everything that has calories in their diet. (fish oil? 10 calories per softgel. chewable vitamin c? 10 calories each. that small amount of oil that your vegetables are cooked in? potentially hundreds of calories. a sprinkling of parmesan cheese on your food? 100 calories. and so on)
    50c/100f/300p is only 2300 calories/day. (actually slightly less, since the average protein has about 3.85 cal/gram, not really 4.) that's less than you need to maintain your bodyweight of ~200 pounds even if you sit behind a desk all day, let alone if you actually get off your ass and work out.


    still, let's assume, for the moment, that your macros and calorie counting are perfectly on point. well then....
    if you really ARE eating only 2300 cal/day, AND you are burning 1000 cal/day (or probably more -- see above) with your cardio, then that's a net of only 1300 cal/day -- or even less (!!) -- which is so low that it will push your body into anorexic-chick mode. in that case, thyroid or no thyroid, your metabolism will try to **** itself, because it thinks you'll die if it doesn't.
    if you are, in fact, consuming only 2300 cal/day, then lay off the freaking cardio -- you shouldn't be doing much (if any) of it. with 80 min/day of cardio on that diet, you are forcing your body to become "resource efficient" -- which is a nice way of saying that it will leach muscle to create additional fat stores, and won't bother with trifles like, say, repairing your injured shoulder.
    oh, and, also, if you are starting to enter starvation mode, guess what else goes down? if you said "thyroid function", you win the prize!
    although you are not an anorexic chick, your labs actually point to the first stages of this problem. see, your rT3 (reverse t3) is right in the middle of the range ... which wouldn't normally be an issue, but that's unusually high for someone with t4 levels as low as yours. there is, however, one condition that causes rT3 to rise while t4 plummets, and that is when your body thinks it's starving.
    finally, you're forgetting that the entire point of following a low(er)-carb diet is so that you don't have to bother with things like cardio, and can just diet and lift. if you do any significant cardio, you need carbohydrates, period, or you'll leach muscle like crazy.



    in general, you should never undereat by more than about 500 cal/day (relative to maintenance level) for more than a couple of days in a row. and if you are doing all this cardio, then you have to take that into account in determining your maintenance level.
    according to what you've stated here, you are undereating by 1000 or more calories per day, so that's probably the genesis of your problem. too much of a good thing, and all that.
    try doing less cardio (a LOT less ... maybe none at all), eating almost the same diet, and see what happens to your labs.

    good luck.
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    Wow, I really appreciate your input. I will comment more later but here's an example of one of my workouts. This particular one was 10 sets of 5 which took about 38 minutes and around 750 cals at that point, followed by lifting until I hit 1000 cals. I wasn't clear about my heart rate and calories burned. I do wear a heart rate monitor to get my hr and caloric information and track with my fitness pal for macros.
    Just looking back at my entries, NET calories are averaging between 1800-2300 from July-October.
    The other thing is I wasn't sure about taking erase/pro (I have both) and upping my carbs and doing less cardio. I don't want too many variables at one time, but I don't want elevated estradiol. I also don't want my blood work in 4 weeks to reflect the erase work because we're trying to dial in the testosterone mgs if I'm going to stay on an AI, I'd like an rx and not just erase forever. I guess I will book another appt this week to go over all this with the anti aging doc.

    *also found out last night from my mother that her whole side of the family was type I diabetic. And she has been on synthroid her whole life. My dad was adopted so no history available. And they took me to an endo at age 8 because I started puberty.
    So now this whole situation leads me to think its thyroid issues. Might explain why I'm 5'9 and my brother is 6'4. Wow

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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    OK so time for more carbs.
    Even though too many bad carbs for too many years got me where I am I suppose the body is more complicated than the all or nothing approach.
    Total calories averaged around 1900/day which is probably too little as well.
    I was just reading how pre workout drinks can enable people (like myself) to over train, so that is probably another factor.
    So..more carbs, but to be honest I don't even know where to begin. I mean, aren't all carbs just broken down into sugar regardless of being simple or complex? So why does it matter then, and what are the best carbs to eat?
    You are right! Your problem as far as food is concern is that you ate low caloric diet for too long. It has nothing to do with carbs or carbing up. It has to do with not eating enough calories for your body to be in equilibrium. As a result you are running on starvation mode. Forget the carbs for now, just add some coconut fat and other fats and bring calories to at least 2500. If you active dont be suprised if your calorie intake is closer to 3000.
    If you have a history of diabetes limit your intake of carbs...look into eating fat instead for energy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    Awesome man, I appreciate your input. As far as the stress and all that wedding stuff, that was 5 years ago. The main point with that background info was that I've had love handles my whole life, regardless of my weight. And even when I went from 200 to 255 to 197 in the past couple years, I still carry fat specifically/only in the love handles.

    My workouts are the opposite of low intensity. My heart rate averages 75-85%. That's part of my frustration. I drink pwo drinks for the stim and focus and workout as hard as I can.

    I did bloods but stopped my multi and D a couple days before just to see my base levels. So they may/should be a bit higher usually.

    I will look into the supps you mentioned and the thyroid supp. I do have most of a bottle of erase pro so perhaps I will run that until my next blood check in 4 weeks.

    I guess the bottom line for me is that low Carb/high exercise has not reduced the love handles, and hopefully the supplements and test cyp and Carb cycling will be the solution. But low T4 also makes you gain fat so I will ask the doctor about it asap.

    thanks again
    It looks like you might have the classic methabolic syndrome. I think you might have multiple issues taking place at the same time..like low T, thyroid, glucose. Def go to the doctor and check all hormones out make sure you are playing with a full deck of cards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille

    You are right! Your problem as far as food is concern is that you ate low caloric diet for too long. It has nothing to do with carbs or carbing up. It has to do with not eating enough calories for your body to be in equilibrium. As a result you are running on starvation mode. Forget the carbs for now, just add some coconut fat and other fats and bring calories to at least 2500. If you active dont be suprised if your calorie intake is closer to 3000.
    If you have a history of diabetes limit your intake of carbs...look into eating fat instead for energy.
    So your telling him not to have a carb refeed to get his calories? How do you propose he gets his muscle glycogen stores replenished?? I agree a Keto type diet would probably be best for him considering some of his bloodwork but unless he wants to waste away to be a skinnyfat anorexic with love handles he needs a good carbup. This will replenish his leptin levels and get his metabolism fired up.
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    Well stated.
    Doc appt today. I will ask for T4 and arimidex.

    On a side note, I've been taking erase pro 1/day for the last 2-3 days. Last night I woke up completely soaked in sweat. I mean wet spot from my waist to my shoulders. I assume this means estradiol going down and/or test going up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    On a side note, I've been taking erase pro 1/day for the last 2-3 days. Last night I woke up completely soaked in sweat. I mean wet spot from my waist to my shoulders. I assume this means estradiol going down and/or test going up?
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    just home from the doc. He said cortisol saliva results are in but the lab didn't identify the times on each sample reading. He said it is necessary to determine if i have a cortisol problem before he treats a thyroid problem.
    I am going to book a 5th doctor opinion asap, an endo. This guy I've been seeing is a little to homeopathic for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    So your telling him not to have a carb refeed to get his calories? How do you propose he gets his muscle glycogen stores replenished?? I agree a Keto type diet would probably be best for him considering some of his bloodwork but unless he wants to waste away to be a skinnyfat anorexic with love handles he needs a good carbup. This will replenish his leptin levels and get his metabolism fired up.
    Carbs are not a must to survive and not eating carbs will not waste anybody away. Refeed is for BBing purposes but if a person doesnt refeed they will not waste away eating fat and protein. Try it you will find out why
    Im not going to call you out on your statements but I'd suggest you do some research on ketogenic diet.
    I've been doing keto for a long time and im still 240lbs and not wasting away even though I eat hardly any carbs
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille

    Carbs are not a must to survive and not eating carbs will not waste anybody away. Refeed is for BBing purposes but if a person doesnt refeed they will not waste away eating fat and protein. Try it you will find out why
    Im not going to call you out on your statements but I'd suggest you do some research on ketogenic diet.
    I've been doing keto for a long time and im still 240lbs and not wasting away even though I eat hardly any carbs
    Oh I'm well aware of the ins and outs of a clinic keto diet. All literature i have read states quite clearly that if you lift weights then a refeed is in order to replenish glycogen stores. Do you need carbs to survive? No you don't there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. BUT your body can't and won't store fats inside your muscles so if you do like to lift an lift hard then carbohydrates are necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    Oh I'm well aware of the ins and outs of a clinic keto diet. All literature i have read states quite clearly that if you lift weights then a refeed is in order to replenish glycogen stores. Do you need carbs to survive? No you don't there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. BUT your body can't and won't store fats inside your muscles so if you do like to lift an lift hard then carbohydrates are necessary.

    The thing that's interesting is that our bodies can only store about 250g of glycogen. Now to put that in perspective if you eat nothing else one day that only lasts you maybe a day. Eating a refeed meal to replace glycogen once a week is kind saying, if I throw a rock in a pond will really make a difference which it wont. Now if you drop trucks and trucks full a rock then that;s the equivalent of eating 100s of grams of carbs which will make a difference.
    Glycogen in the liver is used for balancing blood glucose. Glycogen in the muscle is used for a quick burst of energy if let's say you are in danger then the body will suck as much glycogen from the muscle as possible to give you a chance to run.
    This stored glycogen is not used to sustain daily methabolism unless you starve. If you starve, in that case, adipose fat is used for energy and ketones which are a byproduct of fatty acids methabolism will be used for brain function and there is a minimal fat converted to glycogen so the blood glucose stay constant.
    If you are a sprinter and need a burst of energy then carbs are a good addition to be able to perform the best you can. But even in that case you dont need a lot of carbs but more targeted carbs.
    What im trying to say is that the carb craze is just that...carb craze. Ppl go way overboard with the carbs and come up with the weirdest explanations on how to eat them and such. I eat carbs and im not saying dont eat them, but we need a lot less carbs than we think and when we eat them a little goes a long way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassille View Post
    The thing that's interesting is that our bodies can only store about 250g of glycogen. Now to put that in perspective if you eat nothing else one day that only lasts you maybe a day. Eating a refeed meal to replace glycogen once a week is kind saying, if I throw a rock in a pond will really make a difference which it wont. Now if you drop trucks and trucks full a rock then that;s the equivalent of eating 100s of grams of carbs which will make a difference.
    Glycogen in the liver is used for balancing blood glucose. Glycogen in the muscle is used for a quick burst of energy if let's say you are in danger then the body will suck as much glycogen from the muscle as possible to give you a chance to run.
    This stored glycogen is not used to sustain daily methabolism unless you starve. If you starve, in that case, adipose fat is used for energy and ketones which are a byproduct of fatty acids methabolism will be used for brain function and there is a minimal fat converted to glycogen so the blood glucose stay constant.
    If you are a sprinter and need a burst of energy then carbs are a good addition to be able to perform the best you can. But even in that case you dont need a lot of carbs but more targeted carbs.
    What im trying to say is that the carb craze is just that...carb craze. Ppl go way overboard with the carbs and come up with the weirdest explanations on how to eat them and such. I eat carbs and im not saying dont eat them, but we need a lot less carbs than we think and when we eat them a little goes a long way.
    While i understand and agree with some things you have said, i dont think a generalized way of grouping people is good.

    Some people DO need all of those carbs, upwords of 600-800 a day at times or maybe even more.

    Also you made a reference to throwing a single rock into a pond, making that as an example to a refeed day on a keto diet. I think people have the idea that your going to use all of those carbs within the next day or so. This for most isnt the case. Those carbs will fuel most of your workouts for the next week for most people and consuming only 250 gms of carbs on a refeed will be severely cutting yourself short.
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    I understand the argument and I get that nobody want to sell themselves short, from a practical standpoint wouldnt be easier instead of eating 600-800g of carbs to cut that down a bit and eat more fat?
    After all fat produces 96 ATP and I think carbs produce 36ATP dont remember exactely but is somewhere around that. If energy production is what we are taking about, eating a lot of carbs is, to me at least, wasteful. I rather use some carbs and increase fat and protein.
    I know there are many views on this subject but im taking practicality here. I def can say that even when I was goin crazy lifting I couldnt eat 800g of carbs a day. I dont know about others but it takes me 3 hours to digest a meal, 100g of carbs per meal that;s 8 meals there no way ...I give props to those who can eat like this day in and day out! for real!!
    The one person who ate crazy amount of food was Phelps. But he was def eating a lot of fat to make up a good portion of the calories.
    Many times ppl eat carbs and cut the fat out which if energy production is the goal doesnt make much sense to me.
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    I put 2T of butter and 2T of MCT oil in my 4am coffee.

    I've been experimenting with 16hr fast/ 8hr feed window. I was reading about how eating pure fat does not interrupt the fasting state the way carbs and protein do. So last meal at 630pm, "bulletproof" coffee at 4am, then start the feed window around 1030 am.
    But with low thyroid levels and pre diabetic state, it doesn't seem to matter because fat loss has stalled. Carbs make me gain fat extremely easy, but restricting carbs only make me lose fat to a certain point before stalling.

    But I am enjoying y'alls discussion. I believe that in a properly functioning body, and from years of experimenting on myself for what it's worth, Carb restriction should be balanced with Carb replenishment once a week or 10 days depending on training intensity.'


    EDIT.... The rinky-dink operation that did my bloodwork did not attach cortisol times to results. They also only sent me 3/4 results. But if I am normal, the results will be highest in the morning and lowest at night. It should be remedied this week or early next week. The results I have are:
    .26, .09, .08 (mcg/dL)
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    Got levothyroxine T4 today. I'm going to give it to my rats and see how they respond. Very exciting
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    I've been experimenting with 16hr fast/ 8hr feed window. I was reading about how eating pure fat does not interrupt the fasting state the way carbs and protein do.
    this is correct. in fact, this idea is the entire basis of the ketogenic diet -- ketosis, in which fat is metabolized as a primary energy source, is also induced by starvation and/or long-term fasting.

    So last meal at 630pm, "bulletproof" coffee at 4am, then start the feed window around 1030 am.
    But with low thyroid levels and pre diabetic state, it doesn't seem to matter because fat loss has stalled. Carbs make me gain fat extremely easy, but restricting carbs only make me lose fat to a certain point before stalling.
    you should try to keep "shocking" your body.
    if you get to a point where fat loss is stalled, try a cheat day. ironically, being too strict about your diet can actually lead to the kind of stalling you're describing.
    as wise people say... "everything in moderation... including moderation itself"

    if you just can't progress, try HIIT/sprinting in your fasted state. ideally, you should do this when you are almost ready to start your feeding window -- HIIT taxes your muscles, so you're going to want to refuel not too long after.
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    Got levothyroxine T4 today. I'm going to give it to my rats and see how they respond. Very exciting
    do keep in mind, the effect of t4 supplementation will not be instantaneous. as tempting as it may be to clock this sort of thing day-by-day, you should wait until 2-3 weeks have passed to judge anything at all, and it's best to wait until 4 weeks before fully evaluating the dosage.

    by the way, although it is a pain in the ass to get a legitimate rx just for the sake of a rat or two, you should probably try. this is the kind of chemical for which quality control makes all the difference in the world, and only the pharmacy stuff is consistently going to be dosed as advertised.

    finally, your rx is going to tell you to take t4 first thing in the morning. this isn't the optimal way to take it; instead, if you are on an IF program, you should take t4, if possible, about 5-7 hours after you have started fasting.
    see, t4 is a drug that does its best work when the stomach is empty. if you use that timing, then 3 things will happen:
    1/ the 5-7 hours will allow you to reach a reasonably "empty stomach" state;
    2/ you'll still have about ten hours of fasting left for the t4 to work its magic;
    3/ you'll be asleep during most of the time, meaning that (obviously) there will be less temptation.

    by the way, if you do get t3/t4 combo therapy, note that t3 (liothyronine) is NOT AT ALL like t4.
    first of all, you shouldn't take t3 on an empty stomach; unlike t4, t3 should actually be taken with food.
    second, while t4 takes half a month or more to build up to the proper levels in your system, the effect of t3 is IMMEDIATE. this means two things: first, you'll feel it right away; second, if you go on vacation and leave your bottle of t3 behind, after a few days you may have an overwhelming urge to just get in bed and stay there.
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    Oh most definitely, I was just testing on my rats because the anti aging doc is out of town until Monday. He told me that after he sees the cortisol levels with the 4 sampling times, he will be able to treat either 1) cortisol problems or 2) thyroid. I asked him how he likes to treat low thyroid and he said he prefers a product that contains ground up pig thyroid. I looked it up and the main name is Armour Thyroid. The studies I've read say it is superior to just a T4 drug since it treats all T compounds simultaneously. I also read that treating all the T's yields better/happier people than just T4.
    So hopefully tomorrow I will speak with him and we can proceed. I was just experimenting on the rats in the meantime.
    I also booked a new endocrinologist for later in the week as backup/plan b. I was quite miffed that the anti aging doc referred me to a nutritionist. I understand macronutrients. Eating perfectly will yield no results with low thyroid.
    Thanks again man. Really.
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    So definitely a problem here... I've been eating some carbs the last 2 weeks and I'm 212lbs. I was 197 before this experiment. Clearly have some hormone problems going on. That's not normal. Granted my strength is not decreasing at all but now I'm pissed off. It seems even the smallest amount of carbs/insulin makes me store fat immediately.
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    do you understand why that is?
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    My best guess is that fasting blood sugar is too high, so eating carbs will make it higher, trigger insulin response, and store as fat. But I'm sure thyroid plays into it somehow.

    So to answer your question, "no, not really"
    Can you offer some insight?

    On another note, this doc just called. He said my cortisol is too low, indicative of a crash. He said a crash comes from tooo much stress for too long. He recommended me to the nutritionist again and now to a relaxation specialist. This guy is a little too far out there for me. Hopefully the endo this week will tell me what I want to hear.
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    you got some of it right. If insulin is too high it prohibits the stored fat to be burned for energy. It does that by supressing glucogon.
    Basically right now you have damage at cellular level. In this case the cell is divided into anaerobic and aerobic. Aerobic where the mythocandria resides, and most likely is shut down so very little energy is actually produced there. When the myhocandria shuts down to basically protect itself from the unecessary energy going into it will divert glucose into adipose fat.
    RIght now you are in methabolic syndrome. I wouldnt even bother with carbs until you look into adrenal fatigue. Cut back from the gym and concentrate on the diet/rest and see where the hormones are in respect to baseline.
    Thyroid could be a side effect of adrenal fatigue caused by severe dieting and exercise. If your resting glucose is high it is also a sign of cells receptors shuting down to protect cells from damage.
    THis entire process explains why you not burning fat for energy. Your body is way out of wack. This is one reason I tell ppl to ease out on the carbs consumption because when things go bad, glucose and the amount is debatable it will take to cause issues, will make it worse very quickly.
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    your thyroid levels are fine. low carb diets are expected to lower t3 levels and this is fine.

    with your carb count at 50 grams and such a high protein intake you are most likely teetering in and out of ketosis. i would lower the carbs and the protein. up the fats a little if you want to fill in the calories. no need for any supplements or drugs. especially a thyroid supplement, stay far away.

    Quote Originally Posted by eluruguayo View Post
    dude, i just saw your labs. holy hypothyroid, batman -- you need to take levothyroxine, f***ing STAT.

    your t4 level is 0.9, compared to the laughable "normal" range of 0.8-1.8.
    see, this is one of those hormones for which the supposed “reference” range is just a joke. (for another such example, note that the “reference” range for free test starts at 250, which, for non-senior citizens, is actually well into the hypogonadal zone.)
    your t4 should be *at least* at the high end of that range, preferably a little higher. just monitor your TSH and make sure it doesn't drop to zero.

    your estradiol is also pretty high. consider an aromatase inhibitor -- those are normally part of PCT, but see if your doc will just give you an rx for one.
    in fact, you may just want to go ahead and run a "PCT" as though you had just finished a cycle, even if you haven't done a cycle. that should do a lot as far as correcting some of the hormonal imbalances.

    if you take care of these two factors, you should be chillin.

    also. go to a drugstore and spend a few bucks on the following.
    * vitamin D3. try to take 10,000 iu per day.
    * vitamin A. try to take 50,000 to 70,000 iu per day (that's going to be 6 to 9 softgels a day). this is going to do wonders for your immune system, and, in turn, all that stuff that your immune system governs indirectly. (a lot of stress, and resultant hormone levels, is simply due to an exhausted immune system. you may be surprised how much you can improve by just starting to pop 4-5 softgels of vitamin A when you wake up and then another 2-4 softgels in the evening.)
    * N-acetyl-cysteine ("NAC"). this is a bit harder to find, but you can always order it on the internet if you can't get it locally. good stuff for your lipid profile and mood, among MANY other things, if you are eating that kind of diet.

    god bless you, man, a lot of what you're going through sounds annoyingly familiar.
  

  
 

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