My "not so natural" anabolic cutting stack....opinions/thoughts?

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    My "not so natural" anabolic cutting stack....opinions/thoughts?


    whats up this is going to be my cutting stack for the next 5 weeks.im currently sitting at about 13-15% bf and want it lower in the next 5 weeks.

    Stats: 20 y/o,6ft,205lbs around 13-15bf% not sure.i had full abs before christmas using clenbuterol but at higher dosages (it melts fat lol)
    about 4 weeks ago i started cutting/recomping with osta rx by ironmag labs.i gained a few pounds of muscle and actually lost a good bit of bodyfat.i have been refeeding (skiploading) every week with great results but since i finished the osta i actually gained a bit of fat. My diet is very clean at the moment with higher carbs on training days and low on off days. I train DC and stick to it like a bitch lol,beating the log book every week.Mind you,im only 20 y/o but decided to not be stupid and use ph's yet (i know a lot about them,and since osta rx is not suppressive im using it again for this cycle (did a cycle of 4 weeks,stopped for 2 weeks and now doing another 4 weeks HELL YEAH). I have used clenbuterol in the past with all precautions taken.

    the stack: osta rx 3caps a day total of 20mg osta
    erase : 1-3 caps a day
    clenbuterol: im doing a 2on 2 off stretegy to stop any receptor downregulation etc.i also use yohimbine on when im not using clen on an empty stomach before liss cardio.taurine,benadryl and potassium will be used along with the clen. it will be dosed at 60-100mcg on this protocol.I dont like using clen on training days as it makes me shaky and my strenght is not the same,so i will try and work around it
    other supps: whey,bcaa,creatine etc.

    thoughts on this? my macros will be different for off days.

    ill be on about 2300kcal on training days and 2100 on off days.i wont post macros for every day as they differ but protein is around the 210-230range and fats usually higher (90-110g) range on off days.cardio is liss 3-4 days a week and one HIIT a week (depending on which workout scedule im doing if i have to train legs twice that week.I will post pics up as soon as i can.

    All opinions are welcome.lets kill it

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    Despite the claims, osta rx is gonna suppress your t levels. Lots of bloodwork showing this, which may be why u gained some fat after u quit taking it. Also, you could lift in the morning and take the clen post workout if u didnt wana skip taking it on a lifting day. I usually take it daily when i run it, slowly ramping up for two weeks, then take 2 weeks off. Or u can run ketotifen and run it longer. Good luck, i just started my cut this morning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnubs View Post
    Despite the claims, osta rx is gonna suppress your t levels. Lots of bloodwork showing this, which may be why u gained some fat after u quit taking it. Also, you could lift in the morning and take the clen post workout if u didnt wana skip taking it on a lifting day. I usually take it daily when i run it, slowly ramping up for two weeks, then take 2 weeks off. Or u can run ketotifen and run it longer. Good luck, i just started my cut this morning.
    That actually wouldnt be a bad idea to take it post workout.i wont take it on my refeed days as it impairs insulin sensitivity.the suppression in t levels is insignificant if i recall.aslo il be running pes erase to combat this.so hopefully il be able to get a nice dry look by the end of four weeks.

    bump for more thoughts or opinions on this.anything i should add or take away etc?
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    Sorry man, the suppression in t-levels WERE significant...all the bloodwork out there showed it caused shutdown....just saying, take a proper PCT and Erase isn't it. Get some Clomid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theotherone55 View Post
    Sorry man, the suppression in t-levels WERE significant...all the bloodwork out there showed it caused shutdown....just saying, take a proper PCT and Erase isn't it. Get some Clomid.
    read the ironmaglabs website pal.no suppression.i have already done a 4 week cycle of it with no sides.im now doing another 4 weeks.
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    keep up with the log i'm getting ready to try osta myself, I heard the suppression of osta is very mild if not unnoticeable and s4 being a little worst, so i'm trying to decide what or if i need to take anything like a pct, i might take erase and DAA but would taking a serm be more beneficial if so maybe i will do that?
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    Personally, I think your gains in fat loss will be marginal if you don't lower your fats. I'd like for you to explain to me what your fat-burning program is gonna be in order to lose weight. I mean, does it make since to eat all that fat? You'll just pile up just as much as you burn off causing a stalemate in your cut. At least, that's what I've studied about metabolism.

    How are you gonna trigger 90+ grams of fat loss per day? Technically, if you eat 90g of fat per day, then you have to burn at least that much in fat storage to lose any fat cumulatively. That's over 800 calories of low-intensity cardio after your body is depleted of carbs for a source of energy. That's almost 2 hours of aerobics a day...
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Personally, I think your gains in fat loss will be marginal if you don't lower your fats. I'd like for you to explain to me what your fat-burning program is gonna be in order to lose weight. I mean, does it make since to eat all that fat? You'll just pile up just as much as you burn off causing a stalemate in your cut. At least, that's what I've studied about metabolism.

    How are you gonna trigger 90+ grams of fat loss per day? Technically, if you eat 90g of fat per day, then you have to burn at least that much in fat storage to lose any fat cumulatively. That's over 800 calories of low-intensity cardio after your body is depleted of carbs for a source of energy. That's almost 2 hours of aerobics a day...
    Eating Dietary fats does not mean that they will be stored as fat. It all depends on if there is a calorie deficit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docmattic View Post
    Eating Dietary fats does not mean that they will be stored as fat. It all depends on if there is a calorie deficit.
    this.sorry for not updating the blog but i am flat as a pancake from low carbs.to the other poster above,i have actually lowered my fats to the 70g range and fat loss was faster.as long as i am in a caloric deficit i am happy.i am currently skiploading and trust me the weight is dropping off me....im talking 800-900grams of carbs and about 120g fats in a day for the skipload and my metabolism is going 90....buttt im still not as lean as id like to be yet.the osta is keeping my strenght up(its a bit lower) and hardness but still flat.sodium and water are high to keep some fullness/pumps.

    i have changed up training from dc to regular volume workouts.if youve ever tried dc for longer than 2 months you will be burned out.

    cardio is always liss now,5days a week,on clen you should not be doing hiit workouts lol.was on 3 caps erase a day but joints got smoked.serious dryness from it which is good/slight leaning out effect but libido is gone to the dogs

    cut down to 2 caps ed and my libido shot WAAAY down,its embarassing.dropped down to 1cap ed and libido still not emproved.

    will post pics before my skipload on thursday,im still not lean at all and my calories have come down to 2000,which is ridiculous but im still too fat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docmattic View Post
    Eating Dietary fats does not mean that they will be stored as fat. It all depends on if there is a calorie deficit.
    Actually, the body does store dietary fats immediately. It pulls from the glucose for sustained energy. Secondly, the body is incapable of using fats for energy when doing high intensity or anaerobic exercise. Thirdly, fats are the least thermogenic food source of the three, and by far.

    I'm not suggesting that cutting carbs wont get u smaller. But thats just it, cutting carbs in hopes of burning fat doesnt necessarily make u leaner, it just makes u smaller. Its an extremely catabolic approach. There are other ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Actually, the body does store dietary fats immediately. It pulls from the glucose for sustained energy. Secondly, the body is incapable of using fats for energy when doing high intensity or anaerobic exercise. Thirdly, fats are the least thermogenic food source of the three, and by far.

    I'm not suggesting that cutting carbs wont get u smaller. But thats just it, cutting carbs in hopes of burning fat doesnt necessarily make u leaner, it just makes u smaller. Its an extremely catabolic approach. There are other ways.
    of course cutting carbs and/or overall calories make you leaner,if your in a caloric deficit you ARE LOSING FAT.

    im not bashing your method.what would you approach? i am actually looking into a diet with high carbs and low fats....this will ensure the metabolism is racing etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by alecks View Post
    of course cutting carbs and/or overall calories make you leaner,if your in a caloric deficit you ARE LOSING FAT.

    im not bashing your method.what would you approach? i am actually looking into a diet with high carbs and low fats....this will ensure the metabolism is racing etc
    When you take the caloric-deficit approach, two drawbacks come to mind

    1) you get rebound fat accumulation since the body goes into starvation mode and when you come off that deficit diet, the body will immediately store fats at an accelerated rate to prevent starvation from occurring in the future. This is commonly known as "yo-yo dieting".

    2) You lose just as much muscle mass as you do fat (if you cut carbs to the extreme) it is catabolic in nature and doesn't prove effective.


    My point is that you can cut just as much fat as you did on a carb cutting diet while keeping your hard-earned muscle. Carbs are not a source of fat accumulation if you have slow-releasing carbs as your diet (i.e. sweet potatoes, rice, beans, peas, broccoli, etc). So if you eat clean, then carbs aren't the enemy - they're the friend! Carbs are muscle-sparing, and since every exercise can be classified as either carb-depleting or fat-depleting, I see no reason why we can't eat our carbs for the weight-lifting and high-intensity training and minimize dietary fat so that when we do our low-intensity exercise we burn off more fat than we take in.

    And let's not be fools here, dietary fats are not used up in energy before being stored up- ever, unless we're talking about medium-chain triglycerides. Otherwise, they go into fat reserves (and rather easily since they are in the perfect form already) and are later used when the low-intensity conditions are right for them.

    And yes, cutting carbs can help you lose fat since it triggers the release of ketones in the body to help mobilize fat cells. This is extremely unhealthy though and has serious health risks attached to it. You will actually just get "smaller" since you will lose so much muscle in the process.

    If it doesn't make since to you, then why are the most successful bodybuilders, who weigh close to 300lbs, only have a difference of 15-20lbs of weight in their "bulk" and "cut" seasons? Just watch those keto-lovers - they lose like 30% of their total mass in the process of burning off fat. It's about as destructive as chemotherapy if you ask me.. kill the body to kill the problem.
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    I know layne norton is on your side for the carbs/fats debate fueled passion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    When you take the caloric-deficit approach, two drawbacks come to mind

    1) you get rebound fat accumulation since the body goes into starvation mode and when you come off that deficit diet, the body will immediately store fats at an accelerated rate to prevent starvation from occurring in the future. This is commonly known as "yo-yo dieting".

    2) You lose just as much muscle mass as you do fat (if you cut carbs to the extreme) it is catabolic in nature and doesn't prove effective.


    My point is that you can cut just as much fat as you did on a carb cutting diet while keeping your hard-earned muscle. Carbs are not a source of fat accumulation if you have slow-releasing carbs as your diet (i.e. sweet potatoes, rice, beans, peas, broccoli, etc). So if you eat clean, then carbs aren't the enemy - they're the friend! Carbs are muscle-sparing, and since every exercise can be classified as either carb-depleting or fat-depleting, I see no reason why we can't eat our carbs for the weight-lifting and high-intensity training and minimize dietary fat so that when we do our low-intensity exercise we burn off more fat than we take in.

    And let's not be fools here, dietary fats are not used up in energy before being stored up- ever, unless we're talking about medium-chain triglycerides. Otherwise, they go into fat reserves (and rather easily since they are in the perfect form already) and are later used when the low-intensity conditions are right for them.

    And yes, cutting carbs can help you lose fat since it triggers the release of ketones in the body to help mobilize fat cells. This is extremely unhealthy though and has serious health risks attached to it. You will actually just get "smaller" since you will lose so much muscle in the process.

    If it doesn't make since to you, then why are the most successful bodybuilders, who weigh close to 300lbs, only have a difference of 15-20lbs of weight in their "bulk" and "cut" seasons? Just watch those keto-lovers - they lose like 30% of their total mass in the process of burning off fat. It's about as destructive as chemotherapy if you ask me.. kill the body to kill the problem.
    Some of what you say i can relate to. I dropped a lot of size when i cut last year. However I dont believe in eliminating anything complely from ones diet.I've never done carbless. Ive tried to go starchless though-getting most of my carbs from vegetables. So you would reduce fat intake as much as you could and then have a moderate carb diet to bring calories down furthur?
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    Actually, what I do is cut fat down to 10-15% of my total calories. As an example, I am eating about 2500 calories currently. That means that about 30g of fat is all I can eat in a day. I eat 300+g of carbs and nearly 200g protein. The rest I bring in with MCT oil which makes up about 200-300 calories total.

    Combining this approach with cardio in the morning and/or after my weight-lifting has proven effective for me so far. I've only lost about 3-4lbs but have been cutting up nicely.

    If ur carbs are clean starchy carbs and fibrous carbs then dietary fat is ur only problem. Carbs are ten times less efficient at being stored up as fat energy as dietary fats are. So u can imagine that ur body prefers to utilize carbs for instant energy usage and will only resort to fat storage when a sudden lsrge amount of simple sugars is ingested causing a large insulin spike.
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