Fertile Eggs: Untapped Resource or Overpriced Egg?

  1. New Member
    Anxed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    41
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    159
    Level
    7
    Lv. Percent
    1.83%

    Fertile Eggs: Untapped Resource or Overpriced Egg?


    I've recently started eating fertile eggs again, rather than regular store bought eggs. Why? Well, I really cant answer that. Ive been TOLD a number of times that they are invaluable to a bodybuilder's diet, but when I ask why... I never seem to get a valid reason.

    Now, Ive searched and searched for information that documents the nutritional or supplemental differences in fertile eggs and regular store bought eggs, and I have come up craps.

    Does anyone incorporate fertile eggs into their diet, and if so, what significant benefits do they provide to you (other than lightening your wallet)?

    Thanks

  2. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    Well man, remember eggs are albumen protein which is inferior when in comparison with whey, meat and casein proteins, so dont get carried away with eating a dozen a day or something like that..... but there are significant difference in regular store bought eggs and fertile eggs.


    The quality and nutrients located in an egg is dependant upon how the chicken is treated, in the sense of the feed it consumes. Instead of throwing down bird seed or pellets to feed these chickens, fertile eggs come from well fed and monitored chickens, not just those bastards you see while driving down the road (or at least in WV)...

    What Im getting at is both eggs will contain roughly the same types of nutrients, probably not the same ratios or quality (nod goes to fertile eggs on this one of course) but fertile eggs contain the male hormone (not in large amounts, but itsp revelant).

    Another point to take in is that these fertile eggs come from farm 'birds' who run around (more often than not) inriched soil and are carefully fed.... those store bought eggs are pretty much synthetic eggs from chickens who will never see the sunlight or a mating partner. Fertile eggs are derived from say a hen who will mate with a rooster of the same quality, thus the quality of the fertile egg.


    I apologize this was so long and drawn out, its early for me and I really couldnt get out what I wanted to say in just a few sentences like I normally so, but I hope this sheds some light....
  3. Registered User
    jweave23's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  237 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    2,612
    Rep Power
    1455
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    30.86%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    I found a few decent links regarding fertile eggs, but I see no benefit from eating them. I think the issue may have arised from the fact that there is allegedly a slight bit more male hormone in fertile eggs. I don't see how this could translate into better gains or be more worthwhile for most though.

    http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~robsond/solu.../janan091.html

    http://www.wannabebig.com/article.ph...4&pageid=2

    http://www.georgiaeggs.org/pages/fertileeggs.html
    •   
       

  4. Banned
    John Benz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    520
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    99.21%

    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Well man, remember eggs are albumen protein which is inferior when in comparison with whey, meat and casein proteins, so dont get carried away with eating a dozen a day or something like that.....
    This is 100% incorrect, and is a myth that has been popularized by the powdered protein makers. Whole eggs are the most anabolic and bioavailable protein on the planet. There are given a rating of 100, and this is the standard by which all other proteins are measured. Egg protein is #1, and milk is close behind, while beef and poultry come in a distant 3rd. Powdered proteins, like whey protein isolate cannot come close to the efficacy of whole food proteins at building quality muscle, and among whole food proteins, the egg is king!

    Researchers generally determine protein quality by using the protein efficiency ratio (PER) or the protein digestibility corrected amino acid score (PDCAAS), at a per of 100, egg whites remain the gold standard. The higher the PER value, the greater the protein quality.

    Below is an interesting article on proteins by Tom Venuto, a pro bodybuilder.

    Protein Supplements Vs. Protein Foods


    An objective and unbiased comparison

    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    By Tom Venuto

    June, 1999 | editorial -- Are protein supplements really better than protein foods? Before attempting to answer this question, I should first preface it by mentioning that I do not sell supplements, nor am I associated with any supplement company, so you're getting an honest and unbiased opinion. Don't get me wrong; I am not anti-supplement by any means. It would simply be more accurate to say that I am "pro-food." There are a lot of good supplements on the market, and I use many of them, including a multi vitamin, creatine, thermogenic agents and essential fatty acid (EFA) supplements such as Flaxseed oil. Protein powders and meal replacements can also be indispensable if you don't have time to eat every three hours. However, protein supplements are not the master key to your success, real food is!
    Did you ever notice how articles about protein in certain bodybuilding magazines are seldom objective? Instead, they all seem to be slanted towards hyping some "revolutionary" new product. Did you ever wonder why? In my opinion, most articles on protein supplements are nothing more than thinly disguised advertisements (some very thinly). Sometimes they give you a very persuasive-sounding argument, replete with dozens of references from scientific studies (mostly done on rodents, of course). They even give you an 800 number at the end of the article to order. (How convenient!)
    When protein manufacturers throw around fancy words like cross flow microfiltration, oligopeptides, ion-exchange, protein efficiency ratio, biological value, nitrogen retention and glycomacropeptides, it sure sounds convincing, especially when scores of scientific references are cited. But don't forget that the supplement industry is big business and most magazines are the supplement industry. Lyle McDonald, author of "The Ketogenic Diet," hit the nail on the head when he wrote "Unfortunately, the obsession that bodybuilders have with protein has made them susceptible to all kinds of marketing hype. Like most aspects of bodybuilding (and the supplement industry in general), the issue of protein is driven more by marketing hype than physiological reality and marketing types know how to push a bodybuilder's button when it comes to protein "
    Many nutrition "experts" (read: people who sell supplements), state that there are distinct advantages of protein supplements (powders and amino acid tablets) over whole foods. For example, they argue that whey, a by-product of the cheese-making process, is a higher quality protein than most whole food sources. There are many different methods of determining protein quality, including biological value (BV), protein efficiency ratio (PER), Net Protein Utilization (NPU), chemical score, and protein digestibility corrected amino acid score (PDCAAS). If you have ever seen advertisements for protein powders and supplements, you have undoubtedly heard of one or more of these measures of protein quality.
    BV is one of the most commonly used and is arguably, the best measure of a protein's quality. BV is based on how much of the protein consumed is actually absorbed and utilized by the body. The higher the amount of protein (nitrogen) that is actually retained, the greater the BV. If a protein has a BV of 100, it means that all of the protein absorbed has been utilized with none lost. Whole eggs score the highest of all foods with a BV of 100, while beans have a BV of only 49. Protein quality is certainly an important issue, but it is one that has been enormously overstated and even distorted for marketing purposes. Whey protein is truly an excellent protein with a biological value at or near 100. Many advertisements list whey as having a BV between 104 and 157, but if you look in any nutrition textbook it will tell you that it is impossible to have a BV over 100. In "Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism," BV is defined as "a measure of nitrogen retained for growth and/or maintenance that is expressed as a percentage of nitrogen absorbed." When a protein supplement is listed as having a BV over 100, the company has intentionally manipulated the number for marketing purposes or unintentionally confused BV with another method of rating protein quality. Certain whey proponents claim that whey is "superior to whole egg" so the percentage sign on BV had to be dropped and the scale extended beyond 100. It was noted by bodybuilding writer Jerry Branium in IRONMAN magazine that in a study where the BV of whey was reported to be 157, the author confused BV with chemical score. Chemical score is a comparison of the amino acid pattern in an ideal reference protein to a test protein and therefore the number can exceed 100. 157 was actually the chemical score and not the BV.
    Most bodybuilders and strength athletes already consume more than enough protein (an understatement if there ever was one), so the importance of BV to these athletes who are already consuming copious amounts of protein has been overplayed. Even though whey has a higher BV than chicken breast, fish or milk protein, if the total quantity of protein you consume is sufficient, then it is not likely that substituting whey for food proteins will result in any additional muscle growth. Whether you choose a whole protein food or a protein supplement isn't as important as some would like you to believe. For the purposes of developing muscle, the only guidelines for protein that you must follow are: (1) consume a source of complete protein with every meal, (2) eat at frequent intervals approximately three hours apart (about six times per day) and (3) consume a minimum of .8 grams to 1 gram per pound of body weight. There are times when it would be beneficial to consume more than one gram per pound of body weight, but that will have to be the subject of another article.
    Because whey protein does have a high BV, it probably offers the most benefits when you are dieting on very low calories. When your energy intake and correspondingly, your protein intake, are reduced, whey protein could help you get greater utilzation of the smaller amount of protein that you are taking in. In other words, choosing proteins of the highest quality is more of an issue when you are dieting than when you are focusing on mass gains when total calories and protein are being consumed in abundant amounts. Whey protein also provides a way to get high quality protein without the fat, which is also important when dieting.
    It has been suggested that whey may have other advantages besides high protein quality, although they are frequently overstated. These benefits include enhanced immunity, increased antioxidant activity and quick absorption. Several studies in "Clinical and Investigative Science" by Dr. Gerard Bounous of Montreal have shown that whey protein provides anti carcinogenic properties, protection from infections, and other enhanced immune responses. Whey protein was also been shown to raise levels of Glutathione, an important antioxidant that can offer protection from free radical oxidative damage. While such findings are very promising, all these studies, which are frequently quoted in whey protein advertisements, were performed on mice, so it is unclear how well the results extrapolate to humans.
    Another acknowledged benefit of whey protein is its fast absorption rate. Although there isn't any evidence that protein supplements digest more efficiently than whole foods (as is often claimed), they are definitely digested faster. This is most important after a training session when the rates of protein synthesis and glycogen re-synthesis are increased. This is the reason it is often recommended that a liquid meal containing protein and a high glycemic carbohydrate be consumed immediately post-workout and that whey is the ideal protein for this purpose. Even in considering post-workout nutrition, there is still little proof that a liquid protein-carb complex will actually produce better muscular growth than whole foods, as long as complete whole food protein foods and complex carbohydrates are consumed immediately after the training session and every three waking hours for a period of 24 hours thereafter.
    Speaking of protein absorption rates, the discussion of fast acting versus slow acting proteins seems to be the latest hot topic these days in bodybuilding circles. The interest was sparked by studies in 1997 and 1998 that examined the differences between the absorption rates of whey versus casein. The researchers concluded that whey was a fast acting protein and was considered to be more "anabolic" while casein was slower acting and was considered to be more "anti-catabolic. " It was further hypothesized that consuming a combination of these two types of proteins could lead to greater muscle growth. These findings have prompted the supplement companies to market an entirely new category of protein supplements; casein and whey mixes. The problem with drawing such conclusions so quickly is that these studies looked at the speed of whey and casein absorption in subjects who had fasted for 10 hours before being fed the protein. Any suppositions drawn from this information are probably irrelevant if you are eating mixed whole food meals every three hours. Obviously, more research is needed.
    This recent fascination with various rates of protein absorption could be compared to the interest in the glycemic index. The glycemic index is a scale that measures the rate at which the body converts various carbohydrate foods into blood glucose. The higher the glycemic index, the faster the food is converted to glucose and the larger the insulin response. Therefore it is said that high glycemic foods should be avoided in favor of low glycemic index foods. The error in relying solely on the glycemic index as your only criteria for choosing carbohydrates is that the index is based on consuming a carbohydrate food by itself in a fasted state. When carbohydrates are consumed in mixed meals that contain protein and a little fat, the glycemic index loses its significance because the protein and fat slow the absorption of the carbohydrate. That's why the glycemic index is really much ado about nothing and the same could probably be said for the casein and whey argument. It's just the latest in a long string of new angles that supplement companies use to promote their protein: free-form vs peptides, concentrate vs isolate, ion exchange vs microfiltration, soy vs whey, casein and whey mix vs pure whey and so on. Every year, you can count on some new twist on the protein story to appear. Certainly there are going to be advances in nutrition science, but all too often these "new discoveries" amount to nothing more than marketing hype.
    What about amino acid pills? Amino acids pills are simply predigested protein. Proponents of amino acid supplementation claim that because the amino's are predigested, the body will absorb them better, leading to greater improvements in strength and muscle mass. It sounds logical, but this is a gross underestimation of the body's capacities and actually the reverse is true: The human digestive system was designed to efficiently process whole foods; it was not designed to digest pills and powders all day long. Amino's are absorbed more rapidly in the intestine when they are in the more complex di and tri-peptide molecules. Your body gets better use of the aminos as protein foods are broken down and the amino's are absorbed at just the right rate for your body's needs. In "Exercise Physiology; Energy Nutrition and Human Performance," authors Katch and McArdle state that "Amino acid supplementation in any form has not been shown by adequate experimental design and methodology to increase muscle mass or significantly improve muscular strength, power, or endurance."
    Furthermore, consuming predigested protein when you are seeking fat loss is not necessarily advantageous because it shortchanges you of the thermic effects of real food. Whole foods have a major advantage over protein supplements; they stimulate the metabolism more. This is known as the "thermic effect of food." Protein has the highest thermic effect of any food. Including a whole protein food with every meal can speed up your metabolic rate as much as 30% because of the energy necessary to digest, process, and absorb it. This means that out of 100 calories of a protein food such as chicken breast, the net amount of calories left over after processing it is 70. In this respect, the fact that protein foods digest slower than amino acid tablets is actually an advantage.
    A final argument against amino acid supplements is the cost. Amino's are simply not cost effective. If you don't believe it, pick up a bottle and do the math yourself. One popular brand of "free form and peptide bonded amino acids" contains 150 1000mg. tablets per bottle and costs $19.95. 1000 mg. of amino acids equals 1 gram of protein, so the entire bottle contains 150 grams of protein. $19.95 divided by 150 grams is 13.3 cents per gram. Let's compare that to chicken breast. I can buy chicken breast from my local supermarket for $2.99 a pound. According to Corinne Netzer's "Complete Book of Food Counts," there are 8.8 grams of protein in each ounce of chicken, so one pound of chicken (16 oz) has about 140 grams of protein. $2.99 divided by 140 grams equals 2.1 cents per gram. The amino acids cost more than six times what the chicken breast does! I don't know about you, but I'll stick with the chicken breast.
    The biggest advantage of protein supplements is not that they can build more muscle than chicken or egg whites or any other whole food protein, the biggest advantage is convenience. It is easier to drink a protein shake than it to buy, prepare, cook and eat poultry, fish or egg whites. Consuming small, frequent meals is the optimal way to eat, regardless of whether your goal is fat loss or muscle gain. To keep your body constantly in positive nitrogen balance, you must consume a complete protein every three hours. For many people, eating this often is nearly impossible. That's when a high quality protein supplement is the most helpful.
    Aside from convenience, the truth about protein supplements is that they offer few advantages over protein foods. There is no scientific evidence that you can't meet all of your protein needs for muscle growth through food. As long as you eat every three hours and you eat a complete protein such as eggs, lean meat or dairy products with every meal, it is not necessary to consume any protein supplements to get outstanding results. Whey protein does have some interesting and useful properties and supplementing with a couple scoops each day is not a bad idea, especially if you are on a low calorie diet for fat loss. Aside from that, focus on real food and don't believe the hype.
    References
    1) Groff, James, et al, Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism, West Publishing company, 1995.
    2) Fruhbeck, Gema. Slow and fast dietary proteins. Nature, 391: 843-844
    3) Boirie, Y. et al. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc National Acad Sci, 94: 14930-14935, 1997
    4) Lemon, Peter, Protein and Exercise: update, Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, Vol 19, No. 5, S179 - S190, 1987
    5) Carraro, F., et at, Effect of exercise and recovery on muscle protein synthesis in human subjects. Amer Journal of physiology, 259: E470, 1990
    6) Lemon, Peter, Is increased dietary protein necessary or beneficial for individuals with a physically active lifestyle? Nutrition reviews, 54:S 169-175, 1996 7) Bounous, G., et al, The immunoenhancing property of dietary whey protein concentrate. Clinical and Investigational Medicine, 11: 271-278. 1988.
    8) Sadler, R., The benefits of dietary whey protein concentrate on the immune response and health. S Afr. J Dairy Sci, 24: No 24, 1992
    9) Bounous, G., Dietary whey protein inhibits the development of dimethylhydrazine-induced malignancy. Clinical and Investigational Medicine, 12: 213-217, 1988
    10) Bounous, G., et al, The biological activity of undenatured dietary whey protein; role of glutathione. Clinical and Investigational Medicine, 14: 4, 296-309, 1991
    11) Netzer, Corinne. The Complete Book of Food Counts. Dell Publishing, 1997
    12) Katch, Katch & McArdle, Exercise Physiology; Energy, Nutrition and Human Performance, Wiliams and Wilkins, 1996.
  5. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    You have a study comparing beans to eggs and BV rating

    Albumen protein is weak. Simple. Call me when eggs are more beneifical than steak, chicken, fish.
  6. Senior Member
    Biggs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    1,285
    Rep Power
    789
    Level
    30
    Lv. Percent
    50.16%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    why do you put forward the notion that egg protein is inferior to steak chicken and fish YJ? are you talking bioavailability, nutrient content, or what? I thought eggs contained a large spectrum of aminos (can buy them with added omega3 and **** anyway)... not that I know one way or the other, just wondering why a piece of chicken would actually be preferable to an egg, or if you had an article or something?

    at least they're cheap as shiot lol
  7. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    Ok, nevermind, Im wrong....


    Have some scrambled eggs post workout and some fried eggs for dinner...and as cheap as they are, forget buying protein powders, buy eggs instead. The egg revolution has begun
  8. Banned
    John Benz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    520
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    99.21%

    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    You have a study comparing beans to eggs and BV rating

    Albumen protein is weak. Simple. Call me when eggs are more beneifical than steak, chicken, fish.
    You only read the last sentence, where it shows these 2 as the extremes. The study compares eggs to all proteins, and it is a well-known not really debateable fact that eggs are much more anabolic than meat, fish or or steak. The percentage of the egg that is protein is greater, the quality of the protein in the egg albumen is superior, and the percentage of the protein in the egg that is digested and assimilated is FAR greater. Simply put, as a single protein source the egg has no rivals. mik comes close, but NO ceegar.

    i used to go to the local hatcheries and buy fertile eggs that had a shell defect or whatever (nothing apparent) for 25 cents a dozen. i would take home 10 dozen at a time, and eat 12 -20 or even more per day. Made my greatest gains ever in that 2 year period. Had my cholesterol checked periodically, and it never rose. I still eat 10-12 whole eggs evey day.

    Eggs have always been rated higher than meat and poultry on a bv scale. Common knowledge, and only powdered protein manufacturers disagree. I'm surprised with your knowledge of nutrition you didn't know all this.
  9. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    Im surprised with your nutrition knowledge, you believe this. Egg protein used to be the big fad, because the ability you have to cook with it, and the inexpense and the avaliability and price. No way and I saying to avoid eggs, but it cant be compared to whey and casein. Whey and casein are popular for reasons. I really cant believe you post an article by a former pro bodybuilder or whatever and treat that as the golden standard, then have the nutrs to insult my intelligence by saying you're surprised I didnt know this. Like I said, you keep eating your eggs all your little heart desires. Make sure you have them post workout, before bed, as a meal replacement, etc.


    Allow me to explain something to you....


    When your precious BV is measure, its done on starved individuals. And we all know (or should know) that protein will act much different on a starved, empty stomach. And you're talking about WBPM being measured, but no way does this tell you where the protein is being stored. It could have a very high rate of protein synthesis, but is that in the liver or the muscle? And most of the time BVs are measure at protein intake right at or below maintaince, I would assume the majority of the people here and at most on line forums are getting much more than the FDA's recommended protein intake, since we are elite athletes and need more than the average amount of protein. Intense lifting actually stimulates protein retention, so your BV's can be thrown out.

    So my advice...

    Before bed- Casein protein of course, slow digesting, slow releasing protein to feed your body throughout the night...

    Post workout- Whey. Fast absorbing protein, gets to the muscles quickly to begin repar and has the ability to stimulate IGF-1.

    Meal Replacement: A blend of whey/egg/casein protein.

    Breakfast- Eggs. They are beneficial, but cant be compared to casein and whey in the bodybuilding community
  10. Banned
    John Benz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    520
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    99.21%

    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Ok, nevermind, Im wrong....
    I will print this out and frame it. Will probably never see it again.
    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Have some scrambled eggs post workout and some fried eggs for dinner...and as cheap as they are, forget buying protein powders, buy eggs instead. The egg revolution has begun
    Powders are great for post workout; at all other times whole foods are better, just not always as convenient. The problem with eating too many eggs every day is that many people seem to develop an allergic reaction to them, and have to stop eating them alltogether for a couple of months and then ease back into them. I eat more meat and poultry than eggs, but have at least 10 whole eggs each day.
  11. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
    Dwight Schrute's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  221 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,911
    Rep Power
    7019

    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Ok, nevermind, Im wrong....


    Have some scrambled eggs post workout and some fried eggs for dinner...and as cheap as they are, forget buying protein powders, buy eggs instead. The egg revolution has begun
    Your recommending powders over whole food products?
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
  12. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    Originally posted by Bobo


    Your recommending powders over whole food products?
    Yes, please come in and put words in my mouth, you're right on time.


    AT NO TIME DID ANYONE SAY CHOOSE POWDERS PROTEIN SOURCES OVER WHOLE FOODS

    Thank you, You now owe me $5 for the ride on my nuts.
  13. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    Originally posted by John Benz

    I will print this out and frame it. Will probably never see it again.
    That was certainly a joke. If Im wrong, I dont see it anywhere.

    but have at least 10 whole eggs each day.
    I have 4 egg whites and 1 whole egg a day and Im doing great. 10 eggs a day isnt practical at all. Bodybuilder or not.
  14. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    Originally posted by Workman
    YJ,

    for us new guys it is sometimes difficult to know when you are being serious and when you are being sarcastic, so we get the wrong info about what you are saying.
    I apologize for you inability to read context clues, dont expect a change from me.
  15. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
    Dwight Schrute's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  221 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,911
    Rep Power
    7019

    Originally posted by YellowJacket


    Yes, please come in and put words in my mouth, you're right on time.


    AT NO TIME DID ANYONE SAY CHOOSE POWDERS PROTEIN SOURCES OVER WHOLE FOODS

    Thank you, You now owe me $5 for the ride on my nuts.
    Looks like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed. I think all people want is an explanation on why you think egg protein is inferior. Thats all. Why so defensive?


    Could you please stop referring to people riding your nuts. Your homosexual tendencies have us worried.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
  16. Banned
    John Benz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    520
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    99.21%

    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Im surprised with your nutrition knowledge, you believe this. Egg protein used to be the big fad, because the ability you have to cook with it, and the inexpense and the avaliability and price. No way and I saying to avoid eggs, but it cant be compared to whey and casein. Whey and casein are popular for reasons. [/B]
    YJ, please read the whole article. It is an easy read.

    Protein Supplementation:_ Something New???
    by Dr. Seth Elliot

    In the world of fitness and bodybuilding, we’ve seemingly heard it all when it comes to protein._ It all started out with recommendations to eat voluminous amounts of eggs, milk and beef to obtain enough protein, amino acids and of course nitrogen to “feed” and stimulate muscle growth._ Growing up, I always remember my dad speaking about his weight lifting days._ He was an officer in the United States Air Force in the early 60’s._ After a grueling day giving commands on a runway in Valdosta, Georgia, Craig Elliot would hit the gym with a few of his buddies._ I’ve seen a few of his pictures and I can tell you that he was quite muscular and fit._ Of course he was not large by today’s standards but at 5’11’’ and 200 he was not small either._ Now, according to my dad, the “thing to do” back then was to go to the local diner after you worked out, and fill up on a few eggs, a glass of milk, and maybe a steak if you were exceptionally hungry._ If you will notice, these are all high quality protein sources which seemed to work quite well._ This was the 60’s…in the 70’s things changed!

    Sooner or later it was bound to happen!_ Life was getting faster and faster in the 70’s.__ People, including bodybuilders, were looking for ways to make their lives easier._ In our capitalistic environment, there was only one possible outcome and that was the creation of the protein shake._ For many years, there were just two possible choices—egg albumin (the white part of the egg) and casein (a milk protein)._ Both of these are high quality proteins but back then they were not instantized and so they required a blender to prevent the creation of a shake that looked like something from the peat boggs in Scotland._ Let me explain briefly the concept of instantization._ A protein is designed to be highly soluble in aqueous mediums._ This characteristic is essential but it means that if you were to take regular ole protein powder and throw it in a glass of milk, it would immediately clump and lump up on you._ Because the protein powder is so incredibly soluble, the part of the powder which immediately contacts the aqueous fluid dissolves and turns into a functional film which surrounds the rest of the powder…thus forming the lumps and clumps._ Today, we rarely see such a phenomenon because all of the protein powders have been physically modified to disperse and go uniformly into solution._ There are two main ways this is accomplished and the best protein powders use both._ The first and most important is what is known as agglomeration._ Agglomeration makes the particles of the protein powder irregular and of different sizes._ Practically, this allows the aqueous fluid to penetrate the powder (and any lumps) much more efficiently._ The other technique is to lecithinate the powder._ The only thing this means is that the particles of the protein powder are coated with lecithin which is a natural, healthy emulsification and dispersion agent._ The lecithin works by temporarily changing the characteristics of the aqueous medium surrounding the particle._ This prevents the protein from gelling and sticking together and forming clumps._ Together, agglomerating and lecithinating do a fantastic job in making a protein powder convenient and easy to use.

    Casein and egg albumin reigned supreme until the 90’s when a little-known protein by the name of whey was introduced to the fitness world._ Almost overnight, this protein displaced the sales of casein and egg and became one of the most popular dietary supplements of all time._ Why and how did this happen?_ Well, there are two reasons._ One, whey was the first protein powder that was really marketed by capitalizing on the fact that it was instantized._ Before this, few protein powders were instantized and most people just couldn’t handle the trouble of using a blender several times per day to adequately blend the protein powder._ Whey was hyped as the ultimate protein powder that EVEN would instantly blend with a spoon into your milk or water._ Second, whey was hyped and lied about to the extremes calling it the absolute highest quality protein known to man._ Reading the advertisements, you would think that a person using it would become Frank Zane overnight._ Now, I’ll admit that whey is high quality but in reality it is no better than total egg protein._ In fact, total egg protein has a Biological Value (BV) of 100 and whey a BV of 94._ Shamefully, supplement companies, and the magazines that owned them, were printing that whey protein had a BV above 160._ They were also using big words like hydrolyzed, and di-, tri-, and oligo-peptides._ All of this deception basically fooled the average Joe into thinking that he couldn’t live without whey protein—that it was the very key to his muscular growth._

    Once the whey protein mystique was perpetuated, there was little hope for any other protein source._ I remember that my friend a few years ago would not feel satisfied eating eggs as his protein source._ Once in awhile he would come over to my house to eat breakfast and we would have eggs._ He would have probably four or five and then rush home to get his whey protein shake._ I told him that this was ridiculous but he would hear nothing of it._ You see, his magazines told him that whey was better so in his mind it was and so he wasn’t able to live without it._ The sad thing is that the protein in the eggs was overall a better and more utilizable protein source than his whey shake.

    Whey wasn’t the only protein that was refined and marketed in the 90’s._ The technology behind soy protein isolates improved dramatically thus making them high quality, instantized, and palatable._ A few products were introduced with soy protein isolate throughout the 90’s but they never seemed to take off._ Like casein and egg albumin, soy too was stricken by the success of whey and was living in its shadow so to speak._ This was unfortunate because soy isolate is not only economical but is a very good protein at promoting lean muscle gains and keeping the fat stores down to a minimum._

    All of this talk of protein foods and supplements is all good and dandy but practically speaking where are we right now; what are we to do?_ Well, I can tell you one thing and that is that the supplement companies could care less about telling you the truth about which protein supplement is best._ They are only interested in promoting their bottom line and this doesn’t necessarily mean giving the customer the truth._ I am going to present some very new insights into protein supplementation that are backed by documented scientific evidence that will have you looking at and supplementing dietary proteins in an entirely new light._ In the past, we have seen nothing but the promotion of single sources of dietary proteins._ Once in awhile you might find an egg and casein blend but for the most part you could only buy a container of just egg albumin powder or casein powder or whey powder._ The reason for this is that various supplement companies would stake their claim by saying that one protein source was vastly superior to another one._ Once they made such a claim, they were locked in and could not then mix their “superior” protein with an “inferior” one._ The latest result of this phenomenon was the vast hype and promotion of whey protein._ Nearly every supplement company jumped on the whey bandwagon and excluded every protein source from their supplements except for whey._ Because all the supplement companies (and the magazines that are owned by them) committed to this particular course of action, it prevented any truly truthful information from being disseminated to the consumer._ Thus, for the last ten years, athletes from all walks of life have been kept in the dark regarding how to properly supplement their diet with protein._ _

    The first notion that I want to dispel is that the usefulness of a protein supplement for an athlete is directly related to one of the protein quality rating scales that are currently in use._ Many exist but the most common ones that are used by the fitness community are Biological Value (BV) and Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS)._ Basically, BV and PDCAAS rate how perfect the ratio of amino acids are for “WHOLE BODY GROWTH AND MAINTENANCE”._ On a daily basis, your body requires specific amounts of amino acids for the growth and maintenance of proteinaceous bodily tissues and processes._ If a high percentage of the amino acids in an ingested protein are directly used by these tissues and processes, then the protein will be efficiently used and the BV and PDCAAS will consequently be extremely high._ If, however, the protein source has a bunch of amino acids in high amounts that the body doesn’t need then these will not be used efficiently and the resulting score will be rather low._ Now, this is where it gets interesting people!_ BV and PDCAAS measure the efficiency of a protein for WHOLE BODY growth and maintenance._ Remember that there are tons of proteinaceous tissues in the body besides muscle tissue._ With PDCAAS and BV you have no idea if certain proteinaceous tissues are consuming the bulk of these amino acids preferentially over other tissues._ As an example, a certain protein might have a high BV but it might do very little to add growth to muscle tissue._ It is quite possible that much of the protein is preferentially used in other tissues and process such as connective tissue repair, etc._ Believe it or not, there is ongoing research right now to elucidate this phenomenon._ I wish I could disclose the particulars right now but I am prevented from doing so because of confidentiality agreements._ I will say though that in the near future you will be seeing several new protein sources that have been shown to stimulate muscle tissue growth better than high quality protein sources such as casein and spray dried porcine plasma._

    Am I saying that these new protein sources will take over the protein supplement industry?_ Of course not!_ I wouldn’t even recommend this to happen._ We would be in the same position that we are in now._ Although these particular proteins might do well at stimulating muscle growth, they might not do well at supplementingother important bodily processes and the overall health of the individual might suffer._ I am, and always have been, a firm believer in combining various protein sources._ Would you be satisfied with just consuming maltodextrin or sucrose as your only carbohydrate?_ Would you be satisfied consuming only olive oil as your only fat source?_ Of course not!_ Our bodies were not designed to eat just one type of a particular macronutrient like protein or carbohydrate._ Like fats and carbohydrates, different proteins have different effects on the human body._ Finally, in the last several months we are seeing a little bit of this come into play with the various whey/casein combinations._ These are an improvement but they still are not good enough._ One thing you must be aware of with these protein supplements is that certain companies will try to use the inferior caseinate instead of micellar casein._ How can you tell the difference?_ Well, you could call the company but good luck getting any honest information._ Or, you could look at the label and see how much sodium, potassium, and calcium is listed._ If there are significantly greater amounts listed than what is on the label of a whey protein supplement, then the company is trying to sell you inferior goods._ To reap the wonderful benefits of casein, you must use undenatured, micellar casein!_ Although the casein/whey combination is better than any stand-alone protein, it is still not good enough._ What we are after is a combination of 3-5 proteins that will give the user a wide variety of benefits for optimal health and muscle growth._ _

    If I had my way, I would use whey protein for its very high BV and for its immune system stimulating properties._ Whey protein is also good to use because it is absorbed into the bloodstream very quickly which is essential when using a protein supplement after a workout._ I would then add micellar casein since it also has a high BV and has been shown to be significantly anticatabolic to muscle tissue._ Casein is also a good choice because it balances the quick-acting properties of whey._ The micellar nature of casein causes it to be released very slowly into the blood and gives the user a very ideal, steady flow of amino acids to the target tissues._ Now, this is probably the absolute best you will see on the market right now but there is so much more to be had from a protein supplement._ To the above whey/casein, I would add some soy protein isolate as it has been shown to significantly reduce fat deposits in comparison to milk proteins._ Furthermore, soy protein isolate has been shown to lower cholesterol and actually improve thyroid function as well as kidney function._ You might think I am done, but I have saved the best for last._ I would add good portions of the two proteins that I previously mentioned which specifically stimulate muscle growth._ These proteins have a fairly good BV and cause much greater muscle growth than even casein!_ Even better, one of these proteins even causes VERY reduced fat deposits in comparison to casein._ This combination gives you the best of all worlds:_ a protein that gives everything you need for whole body growth and maintenance, as well as slow and fast absorption rates, as well as improved thyroid and kidney function, as well as lower cholesterol levels, as well as DIRECTLY stimulated muscle growth and DIRECTLY stimulated fat catabolism._ What more could you ask for!

    Unfortunately, no supplement company is even thinking about a protein supplement like this right now._ Soon, the research lab that I am working with will complete their preliminary trials and will look for companies of integrity to market such a product._ It may be a few months but keep your eyes on the lookout for the next generation of protein_ supplementation._ Until then, try to buy several different types of proteins and mix them together to achieve as many beneficial characteristics as possible._ They say that variety is the spice of life._ When it comes to protein supplements, I couldn’t agree more that variety is the key to perfection!

    Dr. Seth Elliot is one of the leading minds in developing efficacious dietary supplements that are based on sound science._ One of his special areas of expertise
  17. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    Originally posted by Workman
    YJ,

    I have seen you be abusive to members here before but now you are even taking it out on the MODS.

    I don't understand this.

    We are all here trying to learn. Your posts are VERY valuable but you seem to take on an Animal like disdain for anyone who does not understand or agree with you.

    IMO there is no need for this. You are intelligent enough to help without being rude to your fellow MODS and members.

    Dude, dont preach to me, your opinion means nothing, if you dont like it, dont post. And if it offends you, there's a hundred more boards out there... you've been on my nuts since you were Crowler and you think changing your name hides the fact that you're a clueless kid.
  18. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    Benz- Post all the homemade studies you like, until you under stand the BV system, all this is irrelevant. Im not preaching against eggs, so drop the smartass attitude. Its better than soy yes, but doesnt touch casein and whey for bodybuilding purposes

    In normal, everday life, egg is certainly king.
  19. Banned
    John Benz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    520
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    99.21%

    Post LMAO


    Who's got a smartass attitude? Dude, you have to learn how to debate things without losing your temper. Just because you have pms today from all that estrogen, no need to insult your bros and fellow moderators. Quit acting like a spoiled brat. You owe Bobo an apology, but I'm sure we'll see hell freeze over before that happens.

    And apparently you are the only one here who doesn't fully understand BV ratings.

    BV is a well-accepted rating system for the quality of proteins -- it is a measure of how much ingested protein is actually retained in the body.
    Whole egg 100
    Whey protein isolate 94
    Cow's milk 91
    Egg white (albumin) 88
    Fish 83
    Beef 80
    Chicken 79
    Casein 77
    Soy 74
    whole grain rice 59
    Whole wheat 54
    Beans 49
  20. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    Re: LMAO


    [QUOTE]Originally posted by John Benz
    [B]

    And apparently you are the only one here who doen't fully understand BV ratings.

    BV is a well-accepted rating system for the qualityof proteins -- it is a measure of how much ingested protein is actually retained in the body.
    Whole egg 100
    Whet protein isolate 94
    Cow's milk 91
    Egg white (albumin) 88
    Fish 83
    Beef 80
    Chicken 79
    Casein 77
    Soy 74
    whole grain rice 59
    Whole wheat 54
    Beans 49
    I have already explained this. It has great relevance to everyday life and normal individuals, doesnt apply so much to the bodybuilders of the world.
    Last edited by YellowJacket; 02-06-2003 at 11:16 PM.
  21. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
    Dwight Schrute's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  221 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,911
    Rep Power
    7019

    ROTFLMAO!
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
  22. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    Heres a post by Workman from bb.com asking this same question and refering people to this site.....but its under the name Crowler....

    Interesting.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...threadid=95985
  23. YellowJacket's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    0
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    95.44%
    Achievements Activity Pro

    The more I think about it now, the more I think Im going off on protein powders, MRP, etc. and not actual eggs. For some reason Im thinking you guys are speaking of egg powders, because I keep refering to casein and whey. I have yet to understand why someone would actually pay for egg powder (unless it was a blend of some type) so I believe this is my cause of contradiction.


    And Crowler, Workman whatever, I banned you for being a lying piece of ****, but noext time you carry info from here to bb.com or any other board, make sure you word it correctly dumbass, I never said it was worthless in bodybuilding, I said whey and casein are better.....
  24. Registered User
    jweave23's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  237 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    2,612
    Rep Power
    1455
    Level
    37
    Lv. Percent
    30.86%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Umm, wasn't this thread about fertile eggs vs regular eggs? well, I'll keep talking to myself then...
  25. Moderator
    WYD02's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    817
    Rep Power
    557
    Level
    21
    Lv. Percent
    77.06%

    YJ, so do you still stand behind this statement?

     

    "Well man, remember eggs are albumen protein which is inferior when in comparison with whey, meat and casein proteins, so dont get carried away with eating a dozen a day or something like that....."
  26. The True Warrior is one who conquers oneself
    hamper19's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Age
    35
    Posts
    1,471
    Rep Power
    884
    Level
    32
    Lv. Percent
    31.18%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    OK I like this post, keep it going, its interesting. Just tone it down...or don't, its probably more fun that way.

    So YJ was your problem with egg albumen coming only from powder egg protien? Or whole eggs as well....ALSO

    how much protien is in the actual yolk compared to the egg white....Is there really a need to eat the whole egg?

    h19
  27. The True Warrior is one who conquers oneself
    hamper19's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  191 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Age
    35
    Posts
    1,471
    Rep Power
    884
    Level
    32
    Lv. Percent
    31.18%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    I think we will find our answer here..by answering this question.

    SO WHAT CAME FIRST?

    chicken or the egg?

    h19
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. iSatori? Good or overpriced? Or Both?
    By Mr.50 in forum Supplements
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-31-2011, 12:40 AM
  2. Eggs - To Yolk Or Not To Yolk?
    By justinfection in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 09-10-2008, 05:11 AM
  3. EGGS Raw or cooked??
    By PHWSSJ in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 04-13-2008, 09:50 PM
  4. Do you eat the whole egg or just the white?
    By PumpYouUp in forum Nutrition / Health
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 04-18-2006, 01:01 PM
  5. Before bed: Casein only or a mix of Whey/Casein/Egg
    By Gaf Knee in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-09-2003, 11:08 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in