caffeine = insulin resistance = fat fat fat

[IRONPOPE]

I have been doing alot of reading on caffeine...and I fully believe if you endmorphic...caffiene is yoru enemy.

Caffeine seem to really make your body ignorant to insuilin release....thus making fat gain easy and fat loss hard.

I am going all out to eliminate caffeine from my diet to see if it helps with cutting.

 

[GotTest]

I have been doing alot of reading on caffeine...and I fully believe if you endmorphic...caffiene is yoru enemy.

Caffeine seem to really make your body ignorant to insuilin release....thus making fat gain easy and fat loss hard.

I am going all out to eliminate caffeine from my diet to see if it helps with cutting.

I thought the research was somewhat mixed on the insulin sensitivity.
It's definitely a no-no if trying to control cortisol.

 

[IRONPOPE]

I thought the research was somewhat mixed on the insulin sensitivity.
It's definitely a no-no if trying to control cortisol.

Personally, I dont know if it creates insulin resistance on its own...but if you are already insulin resistant or leaning toward it ...then caffeine will make sure you are fully insulin resistant and make cutting HARD.

not to mention the cortisol angle u mentioned

 

[Gutterpump]

Can't you get around it by going low-carb while cutting? Should make you insulin sensitive while reducing insulin by a lot. It's so hard to give up caffeine.

 

[IRONPOPE]

Can't you get around it by going low-carb while cutting? Should make you insulin sensitive while reducing insulin by a lot. It's so hard to give up caffeine.

i think it depends on your body type. If you having difficulties cutting ..or staying cut...and you have alot of caffeine in your diet... then i would elminate it and see what happens...

i dont trust caffeine myself. 4 green tea tabs is a cup of coffee worth of caffeine by itself...

 

[GotTest]

It's so hard to give up caffeine.

I feel ya on that one!
I try to defend my caffeine all the time when really I sould be cutting back.
I guess it's only best when stacked with ephedrine and aspirin

 

[UKStrength]

I suppose there are other 'non-stimulant' based fatburners out there, perhaps in association with transdermal fat loss agents to avoid the use of stimulants but still get that mobilisation of fatty acids into the bloodstream?

I have to agree with GotTest though, it is pretty awesome stacked with E & A

 

[rochabp]

i dont get it what is the difference/better insulin sensitive or insulin resistance

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Im in on this subject of discussion.

I am a stim junkie, i know caffeine isnt good for me, but im addicted.

serious

 

[thesinner]

There seems to be some confusion in this thread. Stimulants increase blood glucose levels. That is how they work. Adrenaline converts glycogen into glucose. As glycogen stores deplete, other sources of energy are sought, which is why the stimulant both burns fat and increases cortisol. I wouldn't say that the elevated cortisol is necessarily a bad thing, as it makes fat more soluble, so long as the fluctuations in cortisol levels are at the correct times.

Back to stimulants and insulin, constant high blood sugar levels lead for a decrease in insulin receptors.

Insulin is the hormone used to store energy into cells: fat cells and muscle cells the like. With insulin resistance, the body becomes less efficient in storing energy in both fat and muscle tissues the like. Why is this going to make you fat? The common symptom of the development of type-II diabetes (extreme insulin resistance) is an abrupt weightloss without any exercise or dietary changes.

People tend to associate insulin resistance with fatness because most people who develop diabetes had eaten many refined sugars, to cause such resistance to insulin. As I'm hoping this post shows, insulin resistance is not going to make you fat, but rather the opposite. It's eating all of those pixie sticks to become insulin resistance that makes a person fat.

Cliff's
-Stimulants don't make you fat.
-Pixie Sticks make you fat.
-Both cause insulin resistance.

 

[Steveoph]

Also I just mentioned this in a different thread, but daily intake of caffeine decrease the cortisol response.

 

[bezoe]

i dont get it what is the difference/better insulin sensitive or insulin resistance

Insulin sensitivity is the concept of normal utilization of glucose in the body, and is increased after strenuous excercise. Insulin resistance is what type II diabetics experience, thus resulting in high blood glucose levels and obesity. Either their tissue cells cannot utilize insulin, or their pancreas cannot make insulin. Therefore insulin sensitivity is preferred.

This caffene theory is interesting. It's been hard for me to cut fat and I drink 5 or 6 diet soda's a day. Hmmmm... possible experiment.

Up! Looks like I jumped to the end of the thread without reading all responses. Sinner covered it thoroughly.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

There seems to be some confusion in this thread. Stimulants increase blood glucose levels. That is how they work. Adrenaline converts glycogen into glucose. As glycogen stores deplete, other sources of energy are sought, which is why the stimulant both burns fat and increases cortisol. I wouldn't say that the elevated cortisol is necessarily a bad thing, as it makes fat more soluble, so long as the fluctuations in cortisol levels are at the correct times.

Back to stimulants and insulin, constant high blood sugar levels lead for a decrease in insulin receptors.

Insulin is the hormone used to store energy into cells: fat cells and muscle cells the like. With insulin resistance, the body becomes less efficient in storing energy in both fat and muscle tissues the like. Why is this going to make you fat? The common symptom of the development of type-II diabetes (extreme insulin resistance) is an abrupt weightloss without any exercise or dietary changes.

People tend to associate insulin resistance with fatness because most people who develop diabetes had eaten many refined sugars, to cause such resistance to insulin. As I'm hoping this post shows, insulin resistance is not going to make you fat, but rather the opposite. It's eating all of those pixie sticks to become insulin resistance that makes a person fat.

Cliff's
-Stimulants don't make you fat.
-Pixie Sticks make you fat.
-Both cause insulin resistance.

what about ben and jerrys (half baked) and reese pb cups? are those legal?........





damnt.

 

[p00ndawg]

There seems to be some confusion in this thread. Stimulants increase blood glucose levels. That is how they work. Adrenaline converts glycogen into glucose. As glycogen stores deplete, other sources of energy are sought, which is why the stimulant both burns fat and increases cortisol. I wouldn't say that the elevated cortisol is necessarily a bad thing, as it makes fat more soluble, so long as the fluctuations in cortisol levels are at the correct times.

Back to stimulants and insulin, constant high blood sugar levels lead for a decrease in insulin receptors.

Insulin is the hormone used to store energy into cells: fat cells and muscle cells the like. With insulin resistance, the body becomes less efficient in storing energy in both fat and muscle tissues the like. Why is this going to make you fat? The common symptom of the development of type-II diabetes (extreme insulin resistance) is an abrupt weightloss without any exercise or dietary changes.

People tend to associate insulin resistance with fatness because most people who develop diabetes had eaten many refined sugars, to cause such resistance to insulin. As I'm hoping this post shows, insulin resistance is not going to make you fat, but rather the opposite. It's eating all of those pixie sticks to become insulin resistance that makes a person fat.

Cliff's
-Stimulants don't make you fat.
-Pixie Sticks make you fat.
-Both cause insulin resistance.

i got a boner reading this post.

seriously.

 

[thesinner]

i got a boner reading this post.

seriously.

Most guys get boners during sexual encounters with the opposite sex or watching porn, but I've never heard of one from reading a forum post about caffeine. I try not to judge.

 

[crazyfool405]

On a low carb diet with using thos stim I always incluse something like pslin or glycobol to reduce sugar levels and increase insulin sensitivity. However , and sinner correct if I'm wrong, but certain anabolics like tren bind to the glucocorticoid recepter very strongly making it hard for cortisol to be on a rise...?

 

[thesinner]

I've never heard of tren doing that. Deca and Dbol are more common for such applications.

Great for your joints, but outside of that, I don't see much.

Last I checked, AAS channel the steroidogenesis process, and typically increase cortisol. (with the exception of esoteric 11-OH steroids).

 

[thesinner]

On a low carb diet with using thos stim I always incluse something like pslin or glycobol to reduce sugar levels and increase insulin sensitivity.

I'd be wary with this. Perhaps only take such things before bed; otherwise, it's very likely to cause hypoglycemia, especially if you are not consuming a lot of carbs.

 

[TheDarkHalf]

Personally, I dont know if it creates insulin resistance on its own...but if you are already insulin resistant or leaning toward it ...then caffeine will make sure you are fully insulin resistant and make cutting HARD.

not to mention the cortisol angle u mentioned

So what if you're on a CKD?

 

[Mars1107]

Thats why its good to take cort blockers with stims, i think thats very synergic.

Also throw in some insulin support, like cinnamon, vandium sulphate, and corsolic acid,ect.

Stimulants are mainly good for doing one thing, decreasing hunger.

Only stim that i think actually has science for fatloss, is ephedrine.Im not shure if theres been studies.

But the ECA stack, i recently tried, has been the only good thing, theres really not sides for me at least, and it gives a lot of stable energy. The thing is, i really dont like coming off. Any stimulant for the matter, but you need breaks.

Taking adaptogenic herbs and pregnelones helps a little bit with the stim tolerance.

 

[Brenn]

Cool thread...(sipping coffee...) Since we're on the topic of Caffein, is there any difference between the caffein in coffee vs. green tea.

On my last cut, I stopped coffee and was drinking loads of Green Tea (I was in a hellish place without coffee...) and cutting seemed easier. Couldn't figure out why.

 

[Mars1107]

Cool thread...(sipping coffee...) Since we're on the topic of Caffein, is there any difference between the caffein in coffee vs. green tea.

On my last cut, I stopped coffee and was drinking loads of Green Tea (I was in a hellish place without coffee...) and cutting seemed easier. Couldn't figure out why.

Yeah Coffe has cholergenic acid an antioxidant which helps negate some of the bad effects PLAIN caffiene has.

Green Tea, is usually high in ECGC and other polyphenols which aid in fat loss.


However, Oolong Tea, a cousin to green tea for fatness, is even better than green tea because it has polymerized polyphenols. Look it up and buy some. Its good stuff.



Plus Oolong really has a strong thermogenic effect,makes me sweat, and it may reduce hunger a good bit.If u need more info on Oolong, PM me.

Usually i drink coffe for the conveince.
I think i prefer coffe for it altertnes and doesnt make me sweat as much.

Another caffiene source to look out for is Yerba Mate, which is a more relaxing caffiene, and is said to contain an MAOI.

 

[CROWLER]

Cool thread...(sipping coffee...) Since we're on the topic of Caffein, is there any difference between the caffein in coffee vs. green tea.

On my last cut, I stopped coffee and was drinking loads of Green Tea (I was in a hellish place without coffee...) and cutting seemed easier. Couldn't figure out why.

That is funny, I am drinking coffee as I read this as well.

 

[AE14]

I have to agree with GotTest though, it is pretty awesome stacked with E & A

best pre w/o out there. I love it before early fasted am cardio. Weight melts away

 

[hardknock]

I still stick by my guns as nothing matters if you are able to burn gross calories. I remember when I could down a pint of mayfield every week, eat 3 whole pizza and still maintain sub 13 percent bf.

Of course I was younger, played basketball 5 days, ran track, and did cross cycling, but who's counting, heh
damn. it's tuff getting old

 

[Kristofer68SS]

I still stick by my guns as nothing matters if you are able to burn gross calories. I remember when I could down a pint of mayfield every week, eat 3 whole pizza and still maintain sub 13 percent bf.

Of course I was younger, played basketball 5 days, ran track, and did cross cycling, but who's counting, heh
damn. it's tuff getting old

how old are you?, old man

 

[thesinner]

Stimulants are mainly good for doing one thing, decreasing hunger.

Only stim that i think actually has science for fatloss, is ephedrine.Im not shure if theres been studies.

Are you sure about these two statements?

 

[AnthonyIOSOS]

Usually when I drink coffee (caffeine) it is black and between a meal. The only real negative issue I have read is drinking coffee (caffeine) with carbohydrates (esp. simple) which can affect blood sugar negatively causing insulin spike. I figure there is no problem if it is in moderation and taken at the right times; especially without any simple carbs. Empty stomach before a workout is probably the best use of caffeine, or one of the best uses.

Just my two cents.

 

[hardknock]

how old are you?, old man

36 in a few weeks

 

[hardknock]

Are you sure about these two statements?

I think he meant purely alone. As in, just using the pill with no, or little exercise. Of course, that's not the way to do it, but for testing purposes, ephedrine did show evidence of that. It being the only one, I am not sure.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

36 in a few weeks

yeah, i feel ya.........37 in september.

if i look at a cheeseburger and fries i gain a pound. lol

its all wasted on the youth i tell ya.

 

[Mars1107]

Are you sure about these two statements?

The last statement about ephedrine, i said i was unshure about.

The other statement about stimulants being only good at decreasing hunger is only partially true. Sometimes stimulants can even indirectly increase your hunger, with their crashes.
And yes, it is my opinion, that the main pathways od fatloss of conventional stim are mainly do to decreasing hunger.
Also by the fat burning potentional of norepinephrine, dopamine that they release.

It really depends on the particular stim for its direct fat burning action. Even if the stim has major fat burning action, im pretty shure thats the main pathway, i tend to think the pathway is indirect, decreased hunger.

 

[bezoe]

Not asking for a source, but is ephedrine available to buy? I thought the original ephedrine was banned and now there is just the weak, herbal stuff.

 

[bezoe]

So what if you're on a CKD?

CKD is different, in that you are burning ketones for energy. The concept during a CKD is to avoid an insulin spike (during the week) which would result in glycolysis and glucose metabolism, thus halting ketogenesis. I know that Lyle McDonald mentions the citric acid in some soft drinks may cause an insulin spike if the individual is sensitive to it. I did the diet and kept drinking diet cokes (mmm... Caffeine) because they didn't knock me out of ketosis. If they had, I probably would've quit the diet!

 

[ShadowFury]

I think he meant purely alone. As in, just using the pill with no, or little exercise. Of course, that's not the way to do it, but for testing purposes, ephedrine did show evidence of that. It being the only one, I am not sure.

AHhh ok, I was gonna say :worried:

Interesting discussion though. I've cut out caffeine other than Slim Xtreme that I just started. It was easy for me to cut out sodas mainly because of the acid on the teefers. I'm only 18, and I've known people that ate OK(not all healthy nor all bad) and drank a nice bit of soda, and their teeth are :28: at just a few years older than me, so, I quit, lol.

So, stims aside, and not on a CKD, it's safe to assume caffeine = bad? I've also met people that train pretty hard, and get good results, and have caffeine. So is it really THAT significant? Or is it simply the amount that you have over x grams that is significant?

 

[TheDarkHalf]

CKD is different, in that you are burning ketones for energy. The concept during a CKD is to avoid an insulin spike (during the week) which would result in glycolysis and glucose metabolism, thus halting ketogenesis. I know that Lyle McDonald mentions the citric acid in some soft drinks may cause an insulin spike if the individual is sensitive to it. I did the diet and kept drinking diet cokes (mmm... Caffeine) because they didn't knock me out of ketosis. If they had, I probably would've quit the diet!

Thanks for the reply, however that still doesn't explain whether caffeine will have a positive or negative effect on weight loss while being on a CKD.

 

[ShadowFury]

Thanks for the reply, however that still doesn't explain whether caffeine will have a positive or negative effect on weight loss while being on a CKD.

I think he's saying it is OK, because you are burning fat in a different way.

 

[TheDarkHalf]

I think he's saying it is OK, because you are burning fat in a different way.

10-4, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[thesinner]

Not asking for a source, but is ephedrine available to buy? I thought the original ephedrine was banned and now there is just the weak, herbal stuff.

As a supplement, no.

It is available in most states as an OTC asthma medication.

You usually have to go to the pharmacists counter to get it. The same goes for the original sudafed. There's this whole regulation bit about it, because so many people were buying it to make meth. So now, every purchase is logged and sent to the DEA. If patterns start to happen, or you start buying too much, you get a visitor at your door. Handcuffs might be involved, but I can't imagine it being something kinky and hot.

 

[bezoe]

I think he's saying it is OK, because you are burning fat in a different way.

Yes, exactly. However, it is an effective energy booster (ECA stack) which will help you during your workouts without carbs and may also assist fat loss because of adrenal gland stimulation. I see no negative effect during CKD though.

 

[bezoe]

As a supplement, no.

It is available in most states as an OTC asthma medication.

You usually have to go to the pharmacists counter to get it. The same goes for the original sudafed. There's this whole regulation bit about it, because so many people were buying it to make meth. So now, every purchase is logged and sent to the DEA. If patterns start to happen, or you start buying too much, you get a visitor at your door. Handcuffs might be involved, but I can't imagine it being something kinky and hot.

Yea I don't like those unless it's during foreplay. So may I ask what the name of the medication is?

 

[Gutterpump]

may I ask what the name of the medication is?

Look for bronkaid, it's everywhere. Any CVS/drug store will have it

 

[TheDarkHalf]

Look for bronkaid, it's everywhere. Any CVS/drug store will have it

x2. I use bronkaid, good stuff. There is also something called primatine. They are basically the same thing. The bronkaid is ephedrine sulfate and the primatine is HCL. Bronkaid has less of the asthma portion to it than primatine does (200mg per serving vs 400mg per serving). Both get the job done fairly well.

 

[Enigma76]

Just to add.

Glucocorticoids and catecholamines induce insulin resistance by phosphorylating serine residues in the beta subunit of insulin receptors in adipocytes/skeletal muscle. Insulin normally results in the phosphorylation of tyrosine residues in the beta subunit.

When serine residues are phosphorylated instead, they inhibits downstream signalling of the insulin receptor; as such, GLUT4 translocation to the extracellular membrane is decreased, thus leading to less glucose uptake in insulin sensitive tissues. It also decreases the rest of the downstream signalling cascade, including the pathway to induce growth.

Glucagon (increases blood sugar by breaking down glycogen stores) works similarly, as does TNF-alpha (a proinflammatory cytokine).


Is this bad? It is a normal physiological response to induce insulin resistance in muscle/fat in response to glucocorticoids (stress => increased cortisol => maintenance of blood pressure and gluconeogenesis to free up fuel) and catecholamines (stress => increased epinephrine [think fight or flight mechanism] => insulin resistance in muscle/fat so that glucose can be liberated from these reserves for use as fuel).

As long as your diet is in check, it can help you lose weight. If it isn't in check, it is going to do nothing.




I had this exact question yesterday when studying for Step 1 boards.

 

[Mass_69]

Back to stimulants and insulin, constant high blood sugar levels lead for a decrease in insulin receptors.

I've never heard that one. High blood sugar, among other things, leads to hyperinsulinaemia, which over time will lead to a decrease in insulin receptor sensitivity, with a greater tendency of that to happen in muscle tissue.

Insulin is the hormone used to store energy into cells: fat cells and muscle cells the like. With insulin resistance, the body becomes less efficient in storing energy in both fat and muscle tissues the like. Why is this going to make you fat? The common symptom of the development of type-II diabetes (extreme insulin resistance) is an abrupt weightloss without any exercise or dietary changes.

People tend to associate insulin resistance with fatness because most people who develop diabetes had eaten many refined sugars, to cause such resistance to insulin. As I'm hoping this post shows, insulin resistance is not going to make you fat, but rather the opposite. It's eating all of those pixie sticks to become insulin resistance that makes a person fat.

Cliff's
-Stimulants don't make you fat.
-Pixie Sticks make you fat.
-Both cause insulin resistance.

Insulin resistance absolutely will make you fat. Insulin resistance does not effect adipose tissue at the rate it does muscle (I've never actually heard of insulin resistance in adipose tissue). If you become resistant to storing glucose (which then consequently become triglycerides) into either muscle or fat cells, where does it go? We simply excrete it? The fat cells do not become resistant, rather the excess glucose is converted to triglycerides and stored in fat cells. That's what fat cells do, they store energy reserves.

How many papers are there out there that show the relation of insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome (of which some of the symptoms of the syndrome include obesity and elevated triglycerides)? There are also published studies showing that a side-effect of metfomin in diabetics is weight-loss. Many studies on testosterone treatment show a reduction in central adiposity. A side-effect of restoring testosterone - restoring insulin sensitivity. From a purely anecdotal position, I know many diabetics, and I'd say less than 10% of the type II I know would be considered normal weight. Almost all of them are overweight or obese.

I understand the point you were trying to make about the pixie sticks, and yes, the refined sugars contribute to insulin-resistance, but once one becomes resistant, it's a compounding downward spiral towards weight gain. When you eat pixie sticks and your insulin sensitivity is normal, you are able to better metabolize the sugars, and not store them as fat. Of course abusing the pixies will lead to the downward spiral, and now that we've talked about them enough, the FDA will be banning them

 

[Mass_69]

However , and sinner correct if I'm wrong, but certain anabolics like tren bind to the glucocorticoid recepter very strongly making it hard for cortisol to be on a rise...?

I've never heard of tren doing that. Deca and Dbol are more common for such applications.

Great for your joints, but outside of that, I don't see much.

Last I checked, AAS channel the steroidogenesis process, and typically increase cortisol. (with the exception of esoteric 11-OH steroids).

Tren has been show to be an antiglucocorticoid in animal studies. I don't know if there are any human studies regarding this subject & tren.

 

[Enigma76]

There is a massive difference in insulin resistance mechanisms between T2DM and stimulant use.

T2DM isn't just about insulin resistance. It has a host of other issues (leptin signaling, hormone axis problems, screwed up insulin secretion, etc). And most of these pathologic processes are brought about by years of dietary/exercise issues compounding a genetic predisposition...mind you, while T1DM has some genetic component, T2DM is VERY genetic (multifactorial familiar inheritance).

 

[bezoe]

I've never heard that one. High blood sugar, among other things, leads to hyperinsulinaemia, which over time will lead to a decrease in insulin receptor sensitivity, with a greater tendency of that to happen in muscle tissue.

Insulin resistance absolutely will make you fat. Insulin resistance does not effect adipose tissue at the rate it does muscle (I've never actually heard of insulin resistance in adipose tissue). If you become resistant to storing glucose (which then consequently become triglycerides) into either muscle or fat cells, where does it go? We simply excrete it? The fat cells do not become resistant, rather the excess glucose is converted to triglycerides and stored in fat cells. That's what fat cells do, they store energy reserves.

How many papers are there out there that show the relation of insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome (of which some of the symptoms of the syndrome include obesity and elevated triglycerides)? There are also published studies showing that a side-effect of metfomin in diabetics is weight-loss. Many studies on testosterone treatment show a reduction in central adiposity. A side-effect of restoring testosterone - restoring insulin sensitivity. From a purely anecdotal position, I know many diabetics, and I'd say less than 10% of the type II I know would be considered normal weight. Almost all of them are overweight or obese.

I understand the point you were trying to make about the pixie sticks, and yes, the refined sugars contribute to insulin-resistance, but once one becomes resistant, it's a compounding downward spiral towards weight gain. When you eat pixie sticks and your insulin sensitivity is normal, you are able to better metabolize the sugars, and not store them as fat. Of course abusing the pixies will lead to the downward spiral, and now that we've talked about them enough, the FDA will be banning them

So one could say that insulin resistance would also lead to muscle wasting at the same time it is causing an increase in adipose tissue? I feel bad for those diabetics. All the more reason to stay in shape and keep exercising- because being overweight can make a person more susceptible to develop diabetes. How? Are their insulin receptors hypersensitive in the adipose and just the opposite in skeletal muscle? I know genetic predisposition plays a role but how does being overweight raise the risk?

 

[bezoe]

x2. I use bronkaid, good stuff. There is also something called primatine. They are basically the same thing. The bronkaid is ephedrine sulfate and the primatine is HCL. Bronkaid has less of the asthma portion to it than primatine does (200mg per serving vs 400mg per serving). Both get the job done fairly well.

Gracias. I'll look into those...

 

[Mass_69]

There is a massive difference in insulin resistance mechanisms between T2DM and stimulant use.

T2DM isn't just about insulin resistance. It has a host of other issues (leptin signaling, hormone axis problems, screwed up insulin secretion, etc). And most of these pathologic processes are brought about by years of dietary/exercise issues compounding a genetic predisposition...mind you, while T1DM has some genetic component, T2DM is VERY genetic (multifactorial familiar inheritance).

Could you elaborate on the differences? The stim use is more of an acute-IR effect? Of course that would probably still be a bad thing to someone "pre-disposed" to developing T2DM (perhaps an endomorph?), no?

My T2DM references were used as an example of population that is insulin-resistant. Doesn't insulin-resistance and leptin-resistance tend to go hand-in-hand, along with some of the other issues you named, regardless of the development of full-blown T2DM? Doesn't IR lead to LR by the liver overloading the blood with free fatty acids converted from the excess sugar? Therefor, wouldn't increasing insulin sensitivity (such as the metformin study) also increase leptin senitivity and help correct/stabilize many of the issues associated with T2DM & metabolic syndrome?