ketosis

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    ketosis


    Can someone please clarify

    1. Everything that can kick you out of ketosis



    2. Everything that can help you reach ketosis and stay in ketosis

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    There are a ton of topics with this info in it...

    However I do like your idea, it would be nice to have a thread with the answers to your info it in, maybe you can search for the answers and put a FAQ together!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrm View Post
    Can someone please clarify

    1. Everything that can kick you out of ketosis



    2. Everything that can help you reach ketosis and stay in ketosis

    1. anything that creates an insulin response or puts glucose into bloodstream

    2. much more difficult to say, avoiding anything that is #1 is basically it, plus time. depletion of glycogen stores by doing heavy cardio can help start it initially
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrm View Post
    Can someone please clarify

    1. Everything that can kick you out of ketosis



    2. Everything that can help you reach ketosis and stay in ketosis
    1. Theres alot of these. It boils down to stimulants, artifical sugars, too much protein resulting in a high rate of gluconegensis, for some people citrus juices like lemons and limes and too much carbs obviously.

    2.

    A. High fat intake initially
    B. Keeping carbs down
    C. Training appropriately (by that I mean no half assed training)
    D. Leucine is ketogenic and can help raise the levels of ketones which can be helpful initially
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    stimulants kick you out of ketosis ?
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    Some people are sensitive to stimulants lik caffeine. Others aren't.
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    I've never tried Keto but I imagine it would take a few days to actually get into ketosis?
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    first time it can take even longer. if you were in ketosis but came out over a single meal or even single day, you can generally be back in pretty quickly, within a day
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    I've never tried Keto but I imagine it would take a few days to actually get into ketosis?
    When you start CKD it takes about 2-3 days to enter ketosis, around 3 weeks give or take to get to the deepest part of ketosis (which is where the brain will use the highest amount of ketones that it generally will ever) and the body runs off of FFA's. From a carb load you can rebound in a day back to ketosis most likely.
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    Gluconeogenisis occurs regularly both in and out of ketosis. The only time I can see you getting knocked out of ketosis is by poor insulin sesnsivity or your diabeteic. Othere wise it too much protein or gluconeogenis won't knock you out ketosis

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    Gluconeogenisis occurs regularly both in and out of ketosis. The only time I can see you getting knocked out of ketosis is by poor insulin sesnsivity or your diabeteic. Othere wise it too much protein or gluconeogenis won't knock you out ketosis

    Crazyfool is right, the only thing one has to worry about when conuming too much protein is lver stress because the enzymes of many proteins becomes hard for the liver to breakdown, key to ketosis, avoid any form of SUGAR, sugar affects your peptide hormones like a mother, I would even limit the amount of fruits consumed. Lets put it like this everytime you exercise your body goes into Gluconeogenesis, nobody who lifts would be able to complete a cycle if your body did not come out of that estate.
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    Maybe I should have wrote it "According to Lyle McDonald in his book "The Ketogenic diet" Protein has an up to 58 percent rate of conversion into glucose beyond intake which is required to maintain nitrogen balance so too much protein can disrupt ketosis"

    http://www.carbwire.com/2008/07/11/g...snt_need_carbs

    Here too basically says the same thing.

    "Dr. Eric Westman from Duke University says the studies he has seen say for every 2g of dietary protein consumed, one gram of it is converted to glucose/sugar/carbs
    ."

    I wrote that higher protein causes a higher rate of gluconeogenisis not that the process itself at even a small level is to be avoided. Glucose doesn't just exist in the form of sugar, even small percentages of fat can be turned into glucose. Too much glucose no matter what the source will remove a person from ketosis. Sugar does have the added edge of fructose, which will stall ketosis as well in too high amounts.

    Valine
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post
    Maybe I should have wrote it "According to Lyle McDonald in his book "The Ketogenic diet" Protein has an up to 58 percent rate of conversion into glucose beyond intake which is required to maintain nitrogen balance so too much protein can disrupt ketosis"

    http://www.carbwire.com/2008/07/11/g...snt_need_carbs

    Here too basically says the same thing.

    "Dr. Eric Westman from Duke University says the studies he has seen say for every 2g of dietary protein consumed, one gram of it is converted to glucose/sugar/carbs
    ."

    I wrote that higher protein causes a higher rate of gluconeogenisis not that the process itself at even a small level is to be avoided. Glucose doesn't just exist in the form of sugar, even small percentages of fat can be turned into glucose. Too much glucose no matter what the source will remove a person from ketosis. Sugar does have the added edge of fructose, which will stall ketosis as well in too high amounts.

    Valine
    Here is something to ponder upon, the body needs glucose in order to function properly which is managed through carbs, and proteins. gluconeogenisis can be confusing, but for sure it would take more than a certain amount to take the body out of ketosis, and I mean a GOOD amount of protein.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrew732 View Post
    Here is something to ponder upon, the body needs glucose in order to function properly which is managed through carbs, and proteins. gluconeogenisis can be confusing, but for sure it would take more than a certain amount to take the body out of ketosis, and I mean a GOOD amount of protein.
    well, the first half isn't true thats the whole point behind ketosis, is not having carbs perhaps during exercise a small amount of protein does get turned to glucose, but that is not likely to be a big amount.

    But as far as meals go, someone taking in 50+g of protein in a single meal could have as much of 20-30g of it converted to glucose thru gluconeogenesis, which is likely enough to kick you out of ketosis.
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    Easy way to do it is check your blood sugar. If it remains steady then your still in ketosis. But the fat you consume with the maels slows down the process of digestion. That was not taken into consideration at any point of this debate

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    yeah, that is quite true, there are so many variables that havent been studied. But someone who pops a no-fat added 50g whey isolate shake post workout is fairly likely to pop out of ketosis imo.
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    Yea but even with that whey isolate only post worlout you insulin sensitivity is much graeter and should not effect ketosis

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    I've never tried Keto but I imagine it would take a few days to actually get into ketosis?
    The anabolic diet says to go 12 days with less than 30g of carbs a day when you first start the diet, so I'm assuming somewhere around 10-15 days before you're glycogen stores are fully depleted. Also dependent on what kind of lifting and cardio you do.
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    If you train high intensity and use GDAs you can be in ketosis in about 3-5 daus. Other wise it has taken me upwards of 12 days

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    The 58% conversion rate of protein-glucose is referencing the liver's pathway of gluconeogenesis, that being the alanine-glucose pathway. There are seventeen amino-acids which are considered glucogenic [ability to convert to glucose] but alanine is the only amino-acid which the liver can directly convert to glucose; the others are first deaminated into intermediates of the Krebs/TCA, and then can be reanimated into alanine. Essentially, this means that using protein sources high in leucine, isoleucine, valine and so on and so on is unlikely to remove one from Ketosis via excessive gluconeogenesis. This characterizes BCAA as a valuable asset during Ketosis - one can supplement dietary intake of whole-food protein with "between-meal" BCAA intake!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    The 58% conversion rate of protein-glucose is referencing the liver's pathway of gluconeogenesis, that being the alanine-glucose pathway. There are seventeen amino-acids which are considered glucogenic [ability to convert to glucose] but alanine is the only amino-acid which the liver can directly convert to glucose; the others are first deaminated into intermediates of the Krebs/TCA, and then can be reanimated into alanine. Essentially, this means that using protein sources high in leucine, isoleucine, valine and so on and so on is unlikely to remove one from Ketosis via excessive gluconeogenesis. This characterizes BCAA as a valuable asset during Ketosis - one can supplement dietary intake of whole-food protein with "between-meal" BCAA intake!
    nice. pretty informative
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    I am getting a bit confused here. Isn't this diet based mainly on fat and protein intake with the elimination of carbs? Thus your diet is practically all protein and fat......and from what I remember with atkins to get to keto you were allowed as much protein as you wanted.
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    there are flaws with atkins

    the fat should be different and portions still have to be "normal" just because you can eat 36 ounces of steak doesnt mean you should.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    well, the first half isn't true thats the whole point behind ketosis, is not having carbs perhaps during exercise a small amount of protein does get turned to glucose, but that is not likely to be a big amount.

    But as far as meals go, someone taking in 50+g of protein in a single meal could have as much of 20-30g of it converted to glucose thru gluconeogenesis, which is likely enough to kick you out of ketosis.
    I never said to take carbs my friend, all I said is THROUGH carbs and proteins does the body convert it to glucose, ya diggz
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThomasRivera View Post
    When you start CKD it takes about 2-3 days to enter ketosis, around 3 weeks give or take to get to the deepest part of ketosis (which is where the brain will use the highest amount of ketones that it generally will ever) and the body runs off of FFA's. From a carb load you can rebound in a day back to ketosis most likely.
    Good info, thanks bro!

    Quote Originally Posted by PhysiqueFreak View Post
    The anabolic diet says to go 12 days with less than 30g of carbs a day when you first start the diet, so I'm assuming somewhere around 10-15 days before you're glycogen stores are fully depleted. Also dependent on what kind of lifting and cardio you do.
    I lift 3-4 times a week. For cardio, I play tennis twice a week and basketball once a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by maurice02 View Post
    I am getting a bit confused here. Isn't this diet based mainly on fat and protein intake with the elimination of carbs? Thus your diet is practically all protein and fat......and from what I remember with atkins to get to keto you were allowed as much protein as you wanted.
    This is what I thought. Now it looks like too much protein is bad!? I'm getting confused because that will leave me with just about nothing to eat but lard, lol! Please help me understand this more, it's still new to me and I was also under the assumption that it was pretty much the same thing as the Atkin's diet with small differences. Also, if anybody could help me understand what kind of meal plan I should look at, i.e. macros? I will rep any help (yes I know my reps are small but they are much larger on three other boards and can do it there too!)
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    what kind of weekly weight loss is typical with ketosis? 2 - 3 pounds safely before being concerned of muscle loss?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjameskjf View Post
    This is what I thought. Now it looks like too much protein is bad!? I'm getting confused because that will leave me with just about nothing to eat but lard, lol! Please help me understand this more, it's still new to me and I was also under the assumption that it was pretty much the same thing as the Atkin's diet with small differences. Also, if anybody could help me understand what kind of meal plan I should look at, i.e. macros? I will rep any help (yes I know my reps are small but they are much larger on three other boards and can do it there too!)
    Any of the nuts are good, avocados, coconut oil, olive oil, etc. An excess of protein can make it harder to get into ketosis and possibly kick you out. On a true CKD, you want to stay under 30g net carbs for the day, and .8g/lb of protein. the rest is fats.

    Quote Originally Posted by maurice02 View Post
    what kind of weekly weight loss is typical with ketosis? 2 - 3 pounds safely before being concerned of muscle loss?
    yeah, that is quite possible. basically if you are truly in ketosis, you can start clipping calories down and if you are using ketostixs to be sure you are staying in ketosis then you can continue dropping calories with minimal concern about loosing muscle. you can even get protein down to as low as .6g/lb if you aren't doing really heavy workouts (like if you are just doing circuit training)
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    You're keto on the anabolic diet, aren't you? What's the deal with the protein intake then, doesn't that kind of conflict?
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    no, the anabolic diet isn't keto.
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    Oh wow. That's pretty integral to the diet, I can't believe I thought wrong. Thanks.
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    its a bouncy carb diet so although there are low carb days, and its possible for you to go into ketosis during it, that isn't its primary goal and it doesn't fail if you dont reach ketosis. its more about optimizing hormones
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    its a bouncy carb diet so although there are low carb days, and its possible for you to go into ketosis during it, that isn't its primary goal and it doesn't fail if you dont reach ketosis. its more about optimizing hormones
    Thanks for the help bro!
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBrightside View Post
    You're keto on the anabolic diet, aren't you? What's the deal with the protein intake then, doesn't that kind of conflict?
    cyclic ketogenic diet is the category that AD falls under. CKD diets fall under the general layout of being a set of low carb days, maybe with a day with a small carb up if the amount of low carb days are wide and is followed by a carb load. TKD diets utilize carbs before and after workouts to keep glycogen levels at somewhere of a set point. Pure keto diets which I don't think work as well as CKD keeps you low carb without carb ups.

    I think ketogenic diets are misnomers, mainly because the actual amount of ketones utilized on AD or other CKD diets doesn't come close to matching the calorie expenditure of FFA's.
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