What is the basis for the numbers - >30% via TD?

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    What is the basis for the numbers - >30% via TD?


    I am trying to find some reliable information on what can be expected from transdermal delivery of 1-test, 4-ad, and the like. Figures are floated around that over 30% transmission can be expected using the current recipes or storebought (CNW, PN, etc.) bottles. Of course numbers are going to vary due to a number of factors. But the thing is that when it comes to trying to figure out the cost/benefit analysis of using transdermal delivery, *everything* rides on the rate of delivery. So if "30%" is actually 10%, then it is not really worthwhile. I've read pharmaceutical articles which find from 5-60%, sometimes in the same study. Things like Androgel are pegged at a measly 10%. Anyhow, any solid info on this matter would be appreciated.

    If you've got some experience with both 4-AD-cyp injections and 4-AD-base transdermal (or 1-test-cyp and 1-test-base, or 5aa...), please give some feedback here to the effect: "In my considered judgement, I'd say ____mg daily transdermally had the same effect for me as ____mg weekly of the ester by injection."

    The cypionate ester is about 30% of the final weight of a steroid (or "pro-steroid"), so say 500mg/day of transdermal (3500mg/week) felt the same as 1000mg weekly from the -cyp, then the injectible route would be 5x as effective, 700mg:3500mg -- or to state it otherwise, the transdermal could be estimated to result in 20% effectiveness.
    Last edited by Strateg0s; 09-18-2004 at 06:53 PM.

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    If no-one wants to talk about this in this forum, there's some discussion going on over here. But I'd prefer to get a discussion going in this forum as well.
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    I have no clue where this number comes from. To be honest, I always assumed it came from research and studies on penetration enhancers. However, I have never looked into it.

    I should add that Jminis completed a 40 day cycle of transdermal test base and eq base. During the course of the cycle he made excellent gains. In addition, I believe he has used injectable test and eq prior to this recent transdermal cycle.
    Last edited by size; 09-20-2004 at 01:01 AM.
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    Where's Chemo when we need him?
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    Quote Originally Posted by size

    I should add that Jminis completed a 40 day cycle of transdermal test base and eq base. During the course of the cycle he made excellent gains. In addition, I believe he has used injectable test and eq prior to this recent transdermal cycle.
    And you would be right in that assumption. I've ran test prop,enanth, eq etc... etc... In fact with the great success of last cycle and the fact that I still have some unused transdermal mix left I decided not to go with suspension for this cycle and go with transdermal again. I'm about 7 days in right now, I'll keep you guys posted.

    Just to add I would say the absorbtion rate of Tgel is about 40% honestly. Basically two cycles ago I was at test enanth at 750mg/week along with eq at 500mg, with dbol in the begining. Now last cycle I applied in the begining 4ml/day of test base and ramped down from there. My results well they speak for themselves.
    Last edited by jminis; 09-20-2004 at 12:43 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by supersoldier
    Where's Chemo when we need him?
    Hey SuperSoldier, are you telling me that you've never done transdermals? You are *the* guy who could solve all of our troubles. If you'd be willing to try a transdermal cycle, even just with 4-AD, you could compare your levels to injectibles and we'd have an rough answer: it took ____mg daily by transdermal to give levels similar to what I would get from ____mg weekly by injections. You could start with the assumption that you'd have to take twice the base powder via transdermal to equal the cypionate, assuming 33% delivery. The cypionate is about 30% of the powder weight, so if you were taking 2000mg of 4-AD cyp, that would be equal to 1400mg base, which you'd have to triple, so 4200mg over the week, which would be 600mg/day. Do you have any interest in trying this? Maybe someone could sponsor you the bottle of T-Gel + 4-AD necessary for such an experiment. It would be great to get some actual numbers.
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    Thumbs up


    Quote Originally Posted by jminis
    And you would be right in that assumption. I've ran test prop,enanth, eq etc... etc... In fact with the great success of last cycle and the fact that I still have some unused transdermal mix left I decided not to go with suspension for this cycle and go with transdermal again. I'm about 7 days in right now, I'll keep you guys posted.

    Just to add I would say the absorbtion rate of Tgel is about 40% honestly. Basically two cycles ago I was at test enanth at 750mg/week along with eq at 500mg, with dbol in the begining. Now last cycle I applied in the begining 4ml/day of test base and ramped down from there. My results well they speak for themselves.
    How many mg/ml is in your transdermal? I look forward to any more information you can provide from your experiences. Great stuff.
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    I've done a lot of 4ad base transdermal cycles and a few 4ad prop and 4ad cyp cycles.

    My transdermal was 12 grams to 240ml or 50mg/ml. I would slather it all over my bod twice a days, sans "private areas", and it would usually last about 3 weeks. So figure 4g per week. I would say this is approximately equivalent to about 1200mg 4ad cyp injected per week.

    So that about 30%, without taking your base vs cyp calcs into consideration.

    All this is based on my subjective evaluation. I don't think there is any evidence from actual studies to support it. Before I pinned it, I always felt that absorption was less that that, maybe 15% at best, based on studies.

    I could certainly be wrong, this is guesswork here.
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    Yeah, that works out to about 21% efficiency. It may not be high-level science, but your feedback is valuable.

    1200*0.7=840mg
    840mg/4000mg=21%
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strateg0s
    How many mg/ml is in your transdermal? I look forward to any more information you can provide from your experiences. Great stuff.
    10g/120mL TGel
    So 83.3mg/mL
    If you'd like to see my cycle it's posted in the cycle info section of the board along with my results after the cycle and after PCT. I would say the transdermal without a doubt is no less then 35% absorbtion.
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    I looked at your cycle. That' s good information. I'm honestly kind of surprised that it is that efficient.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strateg0s
    Hey SuperSoldier, are you telling me that you've never done transdermals? You are *the* guy who could solve all of our troubles. If you'd be willing to try a transdermal cycle, even just with 4-AD, you could compare your levels to injectibles and we'd have an rough answer: it took ____mg daily by transdermal to give levels similar to what I would get from ____mg weekly by injections. You could start with the assumption that you'd have to take twice the base powder via transdermal to equal the cypionate, assuming 33% delivery. The cypionate is about 30% of the powder weight, so if you were taking 2000mg of 4-AD cyp, that would be equal to 1400mg base, which you'd have to triple, so 4200mg over the week, which would be 600mg/day. Do you have any interest in trying this? Maybe someone could sponsor you the bottle of T-Gel + 4-AD necessary for such an experiment. It would be great to get some actual numbers.
    I have no problem trying it, but... I've gotten lots and lots of different results for my test level, the last 2 times I ran them I think it was 970ish and 1120ish (I'd have to dig them up to get the exact #'s), and that's with a constant dose (2100mg/week) on the same analyzer. I've gotten results in the 1800s, 2100s, and over 3000 on the old analyzer we had.

    I guess I could start the Trans about a week after my cyp runs out, and run labs about 2 weeks later, allowing a total of 3 weeks for the cyp to clear.

    But I'm about to start on some HCG in about a week or so, which I am in DESPERATE need of, trust me on that one. If the HCG gets here before my cyp is gone, I can run one more lab with the 2 of them, and keep the HCG dose constant, I suppose... I'll let you know. The only issue is timing. I don't have a lot of 4AD-cyp left and I don't think I'll have the HCG until at least next week. I'll see what I can do.
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    This would be a great help towards figuring this out. Also, it should be worthwhile for you. If it turns out that homebrew transdermals are cheaper, you could save some money by buying regular 4-AD and 1-test instead of cyp. Damn the ban. Good thing you found some HCG though. You especially.
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    That boldenone base sparks my interest as well. If I find the transdermal route to be acceptable, I might just have to re-think what my first AAS cycle will be . Nandrolone base trans... Mmmmmmm
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