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Chest Training

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    Chest Training


    I am about 132 lbs, and i am looking for a new method or if i am doing something wrong for building my chest. I don't know if its something genetic for me or if i am doing something wrong...

    but for my weight, i am very strong overall and in great shape, but my chest is seriously lacking in relativity to the rest of my body. I have been training on and off for 2 years relatively seriously, not watching food intake like i should though.

    I usually rep about 8 times 150 on a barbell bench, and 55 or 60 6-8 times on dumbells.

    i am on a 4 day bulking workout that does chest monday, legs tuesday, back and shoudlers on thursdays, and arms on friday with HIIT training on off days.

    i am taking True Mass Protein, Cell Mass, and NO Explode right now.

    For chest i do with some variance from week to week...

    3 sets of 6 reps barbell/dumbell bench
    2 sets of 10 reps flys
    3 sets of 6 reps barbell/dumbell bench
    2 sets of 20 reps dips
    3 sets of 8 decline cross cables
    1 set of 20 slow twitch incline bench on machine.
    maybe finish with pushups

    even though i gain weight so slow, i have noticed big jumps in weight in the rest of my body through patience and hard work over time, and pretty much the only gains i make in chest is on dumbells which has been a longer process then i feel like it should be, i feel like i'm stumped on barbell for god knows what reason. and my chest just looks tiny compared to the rest of me.

    also i have had pains in my left shoulder after extended chest workouts only during the lift, not afterwards. Sometimes i admit, usualy on flys, i stop because of that and not necessarily when i have exhausted my muscles.

    Is there some kind of new training or something i can be doing to kickstart bulking my chest? am i doing something wrong?

    thankyou.

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    1. Genetics. I hate the word, but some people ARE built differently. For instance my friend has a great back but lacking chest. I am the opposite.

    2. Cut your workout in half and work twice as hard on whats left. I saw "2 sets of this" and "3 sets of that". Try to focus on say, flat bench, and work on increasing your numbers every week.

    3. Keep your body guessing. Make sure to change it up every 6-8 weeks, to induce new growth.

    4. Try a day where you do 10 sets of 10, to shock the muscle.
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    sometimes less is more...... maybe keep the sets at 10-12 max.
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    Yeah like the other guys said lower your volume. Less IS more in bodybuilding. 8-9 sets max. Also try sticking to 3 basic exercises. I recommend focusing on Incline barbell presses, flat barbell or dumbell presses, and either cable crossovers or some type of flye movement to finish off you workout. Keep reps in the 8-10 range.

    You also said that your diet wasn't too strict or something like that. Nutrition is a vast majority of the equation. Really focus on getting at least 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight and 2.5 to 3 grams of carbs per lb of bodyweight spread out over a few meals. You could supplement with Creatine, BCAA's, Whey and Casein, and NO2 and become a monster!

    Pay attention to the small things too. Hand placement should be about shoulder width or a little greater depending on your frame and arm length. Make sure you're using your chest and not your recruiting your delts too much (i.e. keep you shoulder blades pinched together for the entire set). Don't arch your back when you press up. Bring the weight to right above your nipple NOT your neck.

    If this don't get you somewhere then you might want to consider pec implants LOL
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    I've got to agree with the previous posts on here. They gave you some good advice.
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    The S.A.I.S. Mass-Building Routine

    i took ideas from that workout for mass building, i don't really follow it but i adopted the idea of working "slow twitch" muscles and intermediate ones, for the past 2 years i haven't done anything to simulate that.

    but for the past month i have tried it and thats why you see the two sets of 10 and the one set of 20 and what not.

    i've just never felt like 3 exercises has ever been enough, but i'll give it a shot. but yall do think that one day a week of chest is okay?

    also is there anything out there yall recommend to strengthen joints? some kind of supplement?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldawg07 View Post
    i've just never felt like 3 exercises has ever been enough, but i'll give it a shot. but yall do think that one day a week of chest is okay?

    also is there anything out there yall recommend to strengthen joints? some kind of supplement?
    While volume might not be great you can ALWAYS jack up the intensity. As long as your natural (no steroids) working chest once a week is plenty.

    For your joints you could take something with Chondroitin, Glucosamine and MSM (methyl sufonyl methylate I think). A proper warm up is vital of course. Also, if this is less volume than your used to, it might alleviate any achy joints from the decreased workload alone.

    Remember work smarter not harder.
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    1) most people will disagree with going with BSN for every single supp because most people, including myself, consider them to be overpriced and ineffective. They're getting sued for their NO explode not containing ingredients that they say it does. BUT if you think it works for you go for it.

    2)you usually dont want to stick to a training routine for 2 years. most people switch it up every 4-6 weeks. Check out OPT. Just google optimal performance training and i think that is something you should look more into right now. Many people start off trying to get huge right away and may mess themselves up, myself included. Just because you start at phase 1 in OPT and it's not directed towards power and hypertrophy doesn't mean you wont grow. The phase is just not specifically geared towards that but i think with proper nutrition, growth is inevitable.

    3)What does your diet look like.

    4) genetics may also be your problem with the barbell and you may just have to work way harder to improve it. I too suck at barbell, i put up as much on DB's as i do on BB. almost at least.

    a motto that i like to go by cause it seems true for me is

    "Barbell for pride, dumbbell for size"

    also it makes me feel better when i suck at barbell haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreed11 View Post
    1) most people will disagree with going with BSN for every single supp because most people, including myself, consider them to be overpriced and ineffective. They're getting sued for their NO explode not containing ingredients that they say it does. BUT if you think it works for you go for it.

    2)you usually dont want to stick to a training routine for 2 years. most people switch it up every 4-6 weeks. Check out OPT. Just google optimal performance training and i think that is something you should look more into right now. Many people start off trying to get huge right away and may mess themselves up, myself included. Just because you start at phase 1 in OPT and it's not directed towards power and hypertrophy doesn't mean you wont grow. The phase is just not specifically geared towards that but i think with proper nutrition, growth is inevitable.

    3)What does your diet look like.

    4) genetics may also be your problem with the barbell and you may just have to work way harder to improve it. I too suck at barbell, i put up as much on DB's as i do on BB. almost at least.

    a motto that i like to go by cause it seems true for me is

    "Barbell for pride, dumbbell for size"

    also it makes me feel better when i suck at barbell haha
    i'm pretty much the same way with dumbells, i've nearly reached being equal as well.

    but i think you misunderstood when i said that i've been doing it for 2 years. I've gone through as much as ten different workouts over two years. working as few as 3 days to as much as 6 or 7. I'm just saying that i have seriously been lifting for 2 years.

    i really have been eating whatever for the majority of that time though, and by whatever i mean not healthy and not much of it. i mean i haven't been stuffing cake in my mouth, but i also haven't been making sure i get the right amount of fruits, vegetables etc. because a college meal plan is very hard to do that on.

    i'm back for the summer and am now attempting to write down meals, its usually 3 or 4 meals with true mass in the morning and at night before bed. and then cell mass after workouts and NO before, i don't really have specifics yet though, i get side tracked and don't write it down like i should.

    and the NO Explode USED TO do something for me. 6 months ago i switched to this thing called San Fierce - heart of a lion or something, it worked even better for a short period and then its effectiveness weared out as well. Now i'm back on NO simply because i had like an eighth of a bottle left. It really just makes me concentrate, it doesn't give me the pump like it used to.

    and cellmass... well i have no idea of its effectiveness because i have used it for the past year, cycling off every eight weeks for 2 week breaks. And for all i know its doing jack **** now a days.

    i've considered a test booster like 6oxo for something refreshing to maybe give it a jolt. I'm far from considering any kind of prohormone or steroid though, it crossed my mind and then i slapped some sense into myself, i'm too small for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldawg07 View Post
    i'm pretty much the same way with dumbells, i've nearly reached being equal as well.

    but i think you misunderstood when i said that i've been doing it for 2 years. I've gone through as much as ten different workouts over two years. working as few as 3 days to as much as 6 or 7. I'm just saying that i have seriously been lifting for 2 years.

    i really have been eating whatever for the majority of that time though, and by whatever i mean not healthy and not much of it. i mean i haven't been stuffing cake in my mouth, but i also haven't been making sure i get the right amount of fruits, vegetables etc. because a college meal plan is very hard to do that on.

    i'm back for the summer and am now attempting to write down meals, its usually 3 or 4 meals with true mass in the morning and at night before bed. and then cell mass after workouts and NO before, i don't really have specifics yet though, i get side tracked and don't write it down like i should.

    and the NO Explode USED TO do something for me. 6 months ago i switched to this thing called San Fierce - heart of a lion or something, it worked even better for a short period and then its effectiveness weared out as well. Now i'm back on NO simply because i had like an eighth of a bottle left. It really just makes me concentrate, it doesn't give me the pump like it used to.

    and cellmass... well i have no idea of its effectiveness because i have used it for the past year, cycling off every eight weeks for 2 week breaks. And for all i know its doing jack **** now a days.

    i've considered a test booster like 6oxo for something refreshing to maybe give it a jolt. I'm far from considering any kind of prohormone or steroid though, it crossed my mind and then i slapped some sense into myself, i'm too small for that.


    there's your problem right there. nutrition is 80% of building muscle. at least i think. and i'm sure most guys on here will agree or say something around that percentage. Why are you so focused on getting your chest big? do you focus on back a lot?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldawg07 View Post
    i'm pretty much the same way with dumbells, i've nearly reached being equal as well.

    but i think you misunderstood when i said that i've been doing it for 2 years. I've gone through as much as ten different workouts over two years. working as few as 3 days to as much as 6 or 7. I'm just saying that i have seriously been lifting for 2 years.

    i really have been eating whatever for the majority of that time though, and by whatever i mean not healthy and not much of it. i mean i haven't been stuffing cake in my mouth, but i also haven't been making sure i get the right amount of fruits, vegetables etc. because a college meal plan is very hard to do that on.

    i'm back for the summer and am now attempting to write down meals, its usually 3 or 4 meals with true mass in the morning and at night before bed. and then cell mass after workouts and NO before, i don't really have specifics yet though, i get side tracked and don't write it down like i should.

    and the NO Explode USED TO do something for me. 6 months ago i switched to this thing called San Fierce - heart of a lion or something, it worked even better for a short period and then its effectiveness weared out as well. Now i'm back on NO simply because i had like an eighth of a bottle left. It really just makes me concentrate, it doesn't give me the pump like it used to.

    and cellmass... well i have no idea of its effectiveness because i have used it for the past year, cycling off every eight weeks for 2 week breaks. And for all i know its doing jack **** now a days.

    i've considered a test booster like 6oxo for something refreshing to maybe give it a jolt. I'm far from considering any kind of prohormone or steroid though, it crossed my mind and then i slapped some sense into myself, i'm too small for that.
    You have the dedication, which is most important. Get your diet in check and do more heavy compound movements, which will bring up your overall mass. Heavy deads and squats will add mass everywhere.
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    Heavy Compounds is the first thing I'd suggest. Second, make sure you are pushing from your shoulders and not from your hands. I had that problem for a long time. Once I started to push from my shoulders I noticed a whole different feeling in my chest workout.

    Good Luck and Keep up the Good Work
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    Quote Originally Posted by firefighter2032 View Post
    Heavy Compounds is the first thing I'd suggest. Second, make sure you are pushing from your shoulders and not from your hands. I had that problem for a long time. Once I started to push from my shoulders I noticed a whole different feeling in my chest workout.

    Good Luck and Keep up the Good Work
    that could be the problem... maybe its my form or something.


    and i realize that things like squats and deadlifts are good for over all mass gain, the problem isn't gaining mass, i know what i have to do its just eating right and i have def been doing that better in the past few months.

    bc i am making gains everywhere but my chest, i mean i gain a little strength in chest but it looks no bigger. I work out my back no more then any other part in answer to ur question.

    I dunno though, i guess i'll soak all this in and try less but more on it and try to watch my technique, that and helping out my joints more is all i can really think of.

    i also heard doing lockouts is a really good way to get ur body used to heavier weights, kind of gets rid of that mental barrier where you think you can't do it.

    i will give that a shot as well.
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    The main thing is to switch it up. If it's not working right now, move on to something else for a while and see if that does it.

    Your rep range is all over the place. I understand it's dependant on the exercise itself, but maybe you should focus on heavy bench and weighted dips.
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    I'm going to have to agree with everyone else on this page man, DIET, DIET, DIET! You have you dedication down, the hardest part is getting yourself to the gym everyday, you have that down so eating healthy should be a breeze, at least for me getting to the gym is the hardest part! If you have been dedicated to lifting for two years, obviously your on a mission, clean up you diet man, and I'll bet you will notice some nice gains, good luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathis50262 View Post
    I'm going to have to agree with everyone else on this page man, DIET, DIET, DIET! You have you dedication down, the hardest part is getting yourself to the gym everyday, you have that down so eating healthy should be a breeze, at least for me getting to the gym is the hardest part! If you have been dedicated to lifting for two years, obviously your on a mission, clean up you diet man, and I'll bet you will notice some nice gains, good luck!
    i think a lot of you are missing what i am saying.

    i know diet is key, but the point is that i have gains in all areas EXCEPT my chest, atleast when looking at the bulk of where my mass is going.

    i appreciate the advice from everyone though and i'm going to take into consideration everyone said about different lifting techniques for chest
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldawg07 View Post
    The S.A.I.S. Mass-Building Routine

    i took ideas from that workout for mass building, i don't really follow it but i adopted the idea of working "slow twitch" muscles and intermediate ones, for the past 2 years i haven't done anything to simulate that.

    but for the past month i have tried it and thats why you see the two sets of 10 and the one set of 20 and what not.

    i've just never felt like 3 exercises has ever been enough, but i'll give it a shot. but yall do think that one day a week of chest is okay?

    also is there anything out there yall recommend to strengthen joints? some kind of supplement?
    Bulldawg,

    Fast twitch muscle fibers are the ones that are responsible for the vast majority of the muscle size, more specifically fast-glycotic muscle fibers. The size you are looking for is probably not going to come from doing twenty sets of chest. I would try going down to two or three exercises, get a spotter if you don't already have one, and go all out for just a few set. I would recommend rotating the following, dumbell flat bench and hammer strength incline, Incline barbell and hammer stength flat bench, and Incline dumbell and Flat dumbell flyes. Stick to the 6-10 rep range and add in rest pause, negatives, forced reps and static holds. Go all out for just a few exercises and your chest will grow. If performed at a maximum intensity two or three exercises should be plenty. If you want some references read Mike Mentzer's high intensity training, or even Static contraction training by Peter Sisco and John Little. The more you know the more you grow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eggplant21 View Post
    Bulldawg,

    Fast twitch muscle fibers are the ones that are responsible for the vast majority of the muscle size, more specifically fast-glycotic muscle fibers. The size you are looking for is probably not going to come from doing twenty sets of chest. I would try going down to two or three exercises, get a spotter if you don't already have one, and go all out for just a few set. I would recommend rotating the following, dumbell flat bench and hammer strength incline, Incline barbell and hammer stength flat bench, and Incline dumbell and Flat dumbell flyes. Stick to the 6-10 rep range and add in rest pause, negatives, forced reps and static holds. Go all out for just a few exercises and your chest will grow. If performed at a maximum intensity two or three exercises should be plenty. If you want some references read Mike Mentzer's high intensity training, or even Static contraction training by Peter Sisco and John Little. The more you know the more you grow.
    ^^
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    Just Curious


    hey sorry to but in but i am maxing out at 250 on bench and i weigh 155 is that good. and i can do 20 pullups palms out and my hands about 3 feet apart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt6969 View Post
    hey sorry to but in but i am maxing out at 250 on bench and i weigh 155 is that good. and i can do 20 pullups palms out and my hands about 3 feet apart.

    guess it depends on your form there buck o. instead of butting in maybe start your own thread and maybe take a different approach on your question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreed11 View Post
    guess it depends on your form there buck o. instead of butting in maybe start your own thread and maybe take a different approach on your question.

    LMFAO
    Mabye he has lil man syndrom!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathis50262 View Post
    LMFAO
    Mabye he has lil man syndrom!

    haha yeah i didn't really know what to say to that so i just tried to think of the best way to help him out.
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    sorry about that i didnt mean to sound like a total dickhead or anything. and no i dont have little man syndrome i just didnt really know if that was good or not compared to others my weight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt6969 View Post
    hey sorry to but in but i am maxing out at 250 on bench and i weigh 155 is that good. and i can do 20 pullups palms out and my hands about 3 feet apart.
    Not very good, no.
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    To the OP...

    Your 132 lbs man. Don't even start looking for chest size for some time. You have so much muscle to put on before you start critiquing different body parts. Eat 300g of protein or more and eat lots of good complex carbs. Once you nail that down...hit me back up. You could easily gain about 20 lbs in 3-4 months like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    To the OP...

    Your 132 lbs man. Don't even start looking for chest size for some time. You have so much muscle to put on before you start critiquing different body parts. Eat 300g of protein or more and eat lots of good complex carbs. Once you nail that down...hit me back up. You could easily gain about 20 lbs in 3-4 months like this.
    That would be on the excessive side and a waste. Eat at most 2g protein/lb of body mass. So for you, OP, between 200 and 260 grams of protein.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprawl View Post
    That would be on the excessive side and a waste. Eat at most 2g protein/lb of body mass. So for you, OP, between 200 and 260 grams of protein.
    Eat for what you want to be, not what you are. This guy will gain lbs every week and will quickly be able to focus on 300g. You have to set a goal for the body that you want, not eat for the body that you have.

    Just stating what worked for me. And it worked very well. I always set my goal ----> cals/protein for what I want to be, not what I am.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    Eat for what you want to be, not what you are. This guy will gain lbs every week and will quickly be able to focus on 300g. You have to set a goal for the body that you want, not eat for the body that you have.

    Just stating what worked for me. And it worked very well. I always set my goal ----> cals/protein for what I want to be, not what I am.
    That's a good mentality and props to you because it worked for you.

    But when you really do the math, all that protein was still nothing but excess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprawl View Post
    That's a good mentality and props to you because it worked for you.

    But when you really do the math, all that protein was still nothing but excess.
    Likely, yes. I use this routine with every client that I train and it works for them also. I know where you are coming from, but I would rather have these guys set their goals higher than lower. Mainly because they will often not quite hit them, but if they were aiming for 300 (in this case) they will fall short at 250 instead of 150.

    Feel me?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    Likely, yes. I use this routine with every client that I train and it works for them also. I know where you are coming from, but I would rather have these guys set their goals higher than lower. Mainly because they will often not quite hit them, but if they were aiming for 300 (in this case) they will fall short at 250 instead of 150.

    Feel me?
    Feel ya
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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    Likely, yes. I use this routine with every client that I train and it works for them also. I know where you are coming from, but I would rather have these guys set their goals higher than lower. Mainly because they will often not quite hit them, but if they were aiming for 300 (in this case) they will fall short at 250 instead of 150.

    Feel me?
    It's still overkill and a waste of money. Even 200 grams of protein a day for a 132lb person is more than needed. 1 to 1 and 1/2 grams per lb of bodyweight is sufficient. I've even made consistent gains on as low as 0.75

    Remember its a rule of thumb NOT a fact. Maintaining a positive nitrogen balance can be acheived without a plethora of protein. A majority of the guys I've competed with do not jack there protein intake up that high for even pre-contest.

    Conversely, it can't hurt you (unless you have kidney problems) eating that much protein. It's just a case of diminishing returns.

    The people who advocate eating this much protein usually work for a sports nutrition company that pushes protein to increase repeat business. The science just isn't there to back it up plain & simple.

    What it will do is cause you to stay on the toilet longer...
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    Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't excess protein just turn to fat. I have a feeling i'm soon to be bashed on that but that's why i was told in a pt class i took. I'm eating just over 1.25 grams per pound and making solid gains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreed11 View Post
    Correct me if i'm wrong but doesn't excess protein just turn to fat. I have a feeling i'm soon to be bashed on that but that's why i was told in a pt class i took. I'm eating just over 1.25 grams per pound and making solid gains.
    Calories are calories. Too much of any of the macros will be stored on the body as fat. so you are right. Keep in mind though that proteins only have 4 calories per gram, so one would have to eat quite alot of protein in order to have it be surpluss and stored as fat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eggplant21 View Post
    Calories are calories. Too much of any of the macros will be stored on the body as fat. so you are right. Keep in mind though that proteins only have 4 calories per gram, so one would have to eat quite alot of protein in order to have it be surpluss and stored as fat.

    touche. Come to think of it my teacher was really just against eating a lot of protein actually said this as sarcasm, "oh yeah athletes need more protein to build more muscle" hinting we dont need more protein than anybody else to build muscle and constantly bashing on buddies in my class that take in a lot of protein.

    What's the deal with fat grams. I hear it's 8 calories per gram then 9 calories per gram. What's the deal, it was originally 9 calories per gram corrrect?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sreed11 View Post
    touche. Come to think of it my teacher was really just against eating a lot of protein actually said this as sarcasm, "oh yeah athletes need more protein to build more muscle" hinting we dont need more protein than anybody else to build muscle and constantly bashing on buddies in my class that take in a lot of protein.

    What's the deal with fat grams. I hear it's 8 calories per gram then 9 calories per gram. What's the deal, it was originally 9 calories per gram corrrect?
    It's 9 cal/g
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thixotrope View Post
    It's still overkill and a waste of money. Even 200 grams of protein a day for a 132lb person is more than needed. 1 to 1 and 1/2 grams per lb of bodyweight is sufficient. I've even made consistent gains on as low as 0.75

    Remember its a rule of thumb NOT a fact. Maintaining a positive nitrogen balance can be acheived without a plethora of protein. A majority of the guys I've competed with do not jack there protein intake up that high for even pre-contest.

    Conversely, it can't hurt you (unless you have kidney problems) eating that much protein. It's just a case of diminishing returns.

    The people who advocate eating this much protein usually work for a sports nutrition company that pushes protein to increase repeat business. The science just isn't there to back it up plain & simple.

    What it will do is cause you to stay on the toilet longer...
    Exactly, its a rule of thumb. And something that I have used with great success, along with every single client that is trying to gain muscle mass---they all have success using this method.

    Don't get so anal. If what your using works for you...GREAT. I am more than happy for ya bud. But this is what works for me and tons of other guys that I train so I am giving my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    Exactly, its a rule of thumb. And something that I have used with great success, along with every single client that is trying to gain muscle mass---they all have success using this method.

    Don't get so anal. If what your using works for you...GREAT. I am more than happy for ya bud. But this is what works for me and tons of other guys that I train so I am giving my opinion.
    There's nothing anal about it. I was only regurgitating facts. I'm certified in diet and nutritional sciences so I'm not just talking out of my ass here. I was just trying to pass along some helpful information that might save you money and toilet paper. If you can get the job done with less and save money...why not? There is a threshold of how much protein a person's body can utilize. It's almost half of what you tout. I'm just sayin'...
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    Pre-exhaust method.

    Do some flyes before flat bench. Everybody on chest day hurries to do flat bench first...but use this iso/compound combo and it might help a bit
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thixotrope View Post
    There's nothing anal about it. I was only regurgitating facts. I'm certified in diet and nutritional sciences so I'm not just talking out of my ass here. I was just trying to pass along some helpful information that might save you money and toilet paper. If you can get the job done with less and save money...why not? There is a threshold of how much protein a person's body can utilize. It's almost half of what you tout. I'm just sayin'...
    I am a certified nutritionist also. I know the "book facts" just like you do. But there is also another story...real world effectiveness. I am just saying that from myself, and people I have worked with --- when I get them to up their protein up into the range I am talking about, 100% of the time the results are very noticeable.

    There is a lot of info in the books that is bullsh!t. Just read some FDA stuff. I am taking nothing away from you or what you know. Just telling you what has proven itself time and time again for me and many others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    I am a certified nutritionist also. I know the "book facts" just like you do. But there is also another story...real world effectiveness. I am just saying that from myself, and people I have worked with --- when I get them to up their protein up into the range I am talking about, 100% of the time the results are very noticeable.

    There is a lot of info in the books that is bullsh!t. Just read some FDA stuff. I am taking nothing away from you or what you know. Just telling you what has proven itself time and time again for me and many others.

    I definitely agree on the fact that there's a difference between book facts and the real world. Many times on a test i'll put something i dont believe necessarily just because the teacher wants it.
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