"Dog Crapp" training by Dante
- 02-01-2008, 05:09 PM
- 02-01-2008, 06:34 PM
DC has greater implications on strength then hypertrophy. The only pro bodybuilders I know of that does DC religiously are Dave Henry and Mark Dugdale. But DC isn't really new or revolutional, Dorian Yates trained in a single working set style and before him was Mike Mentzer, who wrote a bunch of books called High Intensity Training. I think the only thing DC added to High Intensity training was "extreme stretching."
I think DC is fine to switch back and forth on from traditional bodybuilding. The sets and reps range in traditional bodybuilding is more effective for muscle size, whereas DC training has a primary effect on neural adaption(s) (increased motor unit muscle recruitment per contraction, increased neuron firing rate) which have primarily strength implications.
I did High Intensity Training for about 6 to 8 months to try it out. I did get much stronger, but once I returned to traditional bodybuilding I gained much more size and musculature.
If strength is your goal, DC, High Intensity, 5x5 is primed. If musculature is your goal, I'd stick to traditional bodybuilding.NSCA - CSCS
02-01-2008, 08:15 PM
okay got cha...my goal is definitely muscle size/mass (not strength)
when you say traditional bodybuilding, are you referring to say a 5 day split
(chest, back, shoulders, legs, bis/tris) or something similar...
doing 4-5 different exercises consisting of 4 sets ? usually I do 15, 12, 10, 6 (or something along those lines)
also I was considering trying to DC training but using a more traditional 5 day split, but I would implement his 3 set warm up with ONE pause/continue working set...then next exercise 2 warm up set with ONE pause/continue working set...etc...
02-01-2008, 11:40 PM
Great program. Go to intensemuscle.com
Facebook John Smeton Fitness
02-02-2008, 12:16 AM
Also it is important to remember that this "program" which I really like for strength was introduced in the famous "cycle for pennies" thread years ago where an important part of the program was a never-ending cycle of steroids.
In other words you never came off! Those that followed the principles of massive eating/protein intake & HIT style training (D.C. style) needed to be constantly on steroids to produce the size gains that came w/ the strength.
Good program but for those that don't lift w/ steroids it comes w/ the limitations VolcomX311 highlighted.
02-02-2008, 12:20 AM
02-02-2008, 12:23 AM
Max-ot,Ast-ss, is a good program
Facebook John Smeton Fitness
02-02-2008, 03:18 AM
02-02-2008, 03:48 AM
Naturals can start blaming genetics or justify their lack of progress on being steroid free but if there is no steady progress being made then something's missing in the diet or training regiment.
02-02-2008, 01:42 PM
DC training will cause hypertrophy, but not as well as traditional bodybuilding, because it's primary adaption will be strength. Obviously traditional bodybuilding will lead to strength increases, but it's primary effect is hypertrophy as oppose to strength.
DC training is all about Intensity-Intensity, which is great for strength and some hypertrophy. And intensity-intensity is key for stimulating muscles, neural aspects...etc., But muscle "growth" requires Volume-Intensity which DC and HIT lack.
Assuming you hit Your Back with 4 DC exercises, which would have to be your max amount of exercises, otherwise you're violating the whole concept of DC training, because Intensity and Volume have an inverse relationship. DC and HIT is all about performing at 100%, every ounce of blood & guts to your set, and under their principle, you can achieve this maybe 4 times, Mike Mentzer of HIT believed in only ONE exercise and I think DC allows for 2, maybe three. Assuming you broke that impenetrable barrier and could pull it off 4 times, you're still only doing 4 exercises for that bodypart, all out intensity, but it seriously lacks the volume in traditional bodybuilding which averages 12, 16, 20 working sets in all.
The idea behind HIT and DC has a surface logic to it, but it lacks in depth knowledge of physiology that neither of the authors had. Mike Mentzer was a genius, but the information we have now wasn't available back then. The guy who made DC training, he's kind of fat for one and I think the only idea he added was extreme stretching and even that is based on theoretical ideas, which without getting into, I'll tell you it's not true.
I think DC and HIT would be GREAT during a strength phase or even just to temporarily switch things up I guess, but if hypertrophy is your goal, you NEED the Volume-Intensity of bodybuilding and not just pure intensity.
First logical question, why do I keep separating the idea of strength vs hypertrophy, don't they correlate? Yes, to an extent. Muscle Size comes down to the amount of myofilaments, strength is about the mechanism of the muscle, how well your body can utilize the myofilaments in correlation with neurons, motor units (axon/dendrites), and other neural & biochemical facets (amount of calcium your T-tubules release during contraction) that make those myofilaments efficient to perform.
I didn't proof read, I'm in a hurry, I hope this helps.
NSCA - CSCS
02-02-2008, 01:54 PM
Plus there is the issue of the bodies release of primarily growth hormone or testosterone. Testosterone will favor DC, HIT, Growth Hormone will favor bodybuilding, again, a matter of strength vs hypertrophy.
I tried HIT in the way you're proposing. Do a few sets, sort of a DC/Bodybuilding hybrid. I would do ONE set of Deads, 455lbs for 4-5 reps, ONE set of 250lbs Lat pull downs, ONE set of 315lbs rows and I would hold and squeeze on the lat pull downs until "muscle failure." I did experience great strength gains and some hypertrophy, but when I got back to bodybuilding, my musculature significantly increased. I think the HIT did help in that, it raised the base of my strength, so I was able to use heavier weight for greater amount of reps when I switched back to Bodybuilding. I think there is a useful relationship there (It's paramount for Sports Performance, but I won't get into that)
Again, I'm not against either one, DC or HIT. I believe they have great uses for strength phases and instead of talking you out of trying it, I say go for it, see how you like it, maybe you'll get excited about the strength gains, but if hypertrophy is your ultimate goal, make sure you come back to traditional bodybuilding and stick to that as the bulk of your training.
NSCA - CSCS
02-02-2008, 02:25 PM
As long as there is adequate TUT and proper form, DC training can easily cause hypertrophy. The stretching is a very important aspect because it increases the microtrauma, hence more inflammation.
M.Ed. Ex Phys
02-02-2008, 02:36 PM
My point wasn't whether it could or couldn't cause hypertrophy, I actually stated that it could. My argument was a matter which had the greater primary effect on hypertrophy.
Time Under Tension still requires a certain amount of volume. TUT is not a stand a lone principle, it requires the presence of other variables.
I'm also not arguing against the use of DC or HIT, I'm a fan of HIT, but as for as which style is most efficient for hypertrophy, traditional is more efficient. By saying bodybuilding is more efficient, I'm not implying DC or HIT is not efficient, just not as efficient.
Back to my strength implication argument.
NSCA - CSCS
02-02-2008, 03:01 PM
i really like the rest pause aspect, it's helpful if you have a wandering mind. i really like working out, but a lot of times there's so much other stuff going on i have trouble "dialing it in". the stretches are very beneficial too, in terms of flexibility and recovery IME
02-02-2008, 03:32 PM
This is fascinating...at first I was skeptical about the whole DC training thing as far as the author saying how effective it was at building muscle...so now I totally understand the differences (between traditional bbing and DC/powerlifting techniques)
02-02-2008, 09:06 PM
02-03-2008, 08:36 PM
I have found there is a place for both. I am currently doing the 5x5 by Madcow. Now I go about the regular style working out but because I wanted a lighter day I did a day of high rep base rate weight. Man, were my muscles fatigue and sore but they were pumped like crazy and I can see the difference in size.
I think the best thing is a combination of both, maybe two weeks of DC or 5x5 then a week of high rep low weight and back again.
I love it! My legs are getting huge, I am losing fat and putting on good muscle.
02-11-2008, 07:31 PM
02-11-2008, 08:51 PM
My results have been outstanding w/ FD/FS.
My strength has gone up every week (the best example is rack deadlifts which went up 50lbs in 5-6 weeks, switched to regular Deadlifts they are up 20lbs in 2 weeks).
I have grown everywhere, more muscle seperation, more density...this was the goal far more then strength.
I have felt a unique soreness in each muscle group 48 hours later the entire 8 weeks. I love this because I can feel exactly what area was worked. (It is great to feel a soreness on all areas of the chest but zero soreness in the front delts...this is just great feedback to me)
All of this on either a recomp diet or my unique style of dieting (each week made up of: 3 days of ketogenic diet & 4 days of slight surplus cals w/ carbs).
Guys on a bulk diet seem to be putting on a lot of mass & one competitive bodybuilder who always had problems growing a chest actually grew one in a short time.
Anyway the principles are very adaptable & reconfigurable and this is why I've been able to use it for so long even though it is meant to be just a 2-3 week shock cycle.
The creator of this method Eric Broser has a new column in MD magazine...but you have to dig around to piece together a routine from users and bits here and there because there isn't really a manual...
Anyway this is a DC thread which I've hi-jacked so later tonight I'll start a thread on FD/FS. See: Fiber Damage/fiber Saturation Training
02-11-2008, 09:45 PM
02-11-2008, 10:24 PM
02-11-2008, 10:30 PM
I've been researching the Fiber Damage/Fiber Saturation ideas here for the last couple hours after seeing datBtrue's post. Here's the best summary I've found so far, written by Eric Broser himself. It starts with a summary of Power/Rep Ranges/Shock cycles and then introduces and explains the FD/FS method.
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