TO eat or NOT to eat during sleep?

[drguitar78]

I have always slammed a couple protein shakes throughout the course of the night, because I wake up feeling very hungry and don't want to starve my hard earned muscle of protein. Some say that this practice disrupts sleep and normal blood sugar cycles which normally result in GH secretion throughout the night and ultimately lead to faster recovery. Please post your comments on this hot topic and help me decide whether I should be considering starving myself throughout the night or continue feeding when hungry!

 

[onelife]

I dont see a problem with taking in some aminos or a shake if you wake up during the night by yourself, but i do not agree with disrupting sleep with an alarm to take stuff down.

I also think it depends on your sleep schedule.. if your someone who does not get a whole lot of hours as is.. its probabley not the best idea to worry about cramming down a few extra cals.

 

[milwood]

I voted NO, but with a major caveat; I am finding that the time I sleep, unless I'm really hungry (legit, not just late p.m nearly insatiable compulsion to eat, and carbs no less...), I can go the course without eating. Again, if I wake up legitemately hungry, I'll eat (modestly and in a good way; hopefully protein/fat). I wanna make sure that my sleep is undisturbed, and I find that eating late can be disruptive.

 

[Rodja]

I can see drinking 10g or so of BCAAs, but not a whole protein shake.

 

[whatastud08]

I can see drinking 10g or so of BCAAs, but not a whole protein shake.

Agreed, I imagine BCAA's or an EAA supplement would be the way to go for low impact on blood sugar and improved nitrogen retention. Throw in a small serving of Poseidon if you've got it. You could keep that in a water bottle by your bed and steal a few gulps when you turn over or wake.

 

[drguitar78]

Some great comments, thanks guys. Personally, I wake up 1-3 times per night with hunger pangs that would make a sane man run outside in his birthday suit in the middle of the night to slay the first sign of life and devour it cold and raw. I eat fat and protein with a few complex carbs (sometimes...like whole wheat bread) 1-2 hours before bed. I never eat sugar except right after workout in my PWO shake...rarely I will have an apple or something but not near bedtime. I eat as much as I can stomach throughout the day (usually 7-9 meals/snacks), and I usually can't eat as much as I would like to at each sitting 'cause my stomach is a little on the small side. I wake up 10 times/night to drink water, and 3-4 times to urinate - all unplanned of course, and determined by my body's urges. I've been advised by some to stop eating protein late so I won't get thirsty and so then I won't need to urinate, but if those things don't wake me up, I get the hunger pains. AHHH!! I can't seem to win....so I just down my protein shakes and go back to sleep until I wake up to urinate or drink..or both...always enduring the disturbances of the night. I had my doc check my GH levels in the morning and she said they are low-normal..so is my test...but because it's in the "normal range" they see that as OK...but you know GH levels fluctuate so much I don't see how they can conclude normality from one measurement.

 

[drguitar78]

Agreed, I imagine BCAA's or an EAA supplement would be the way to go for low impact on blood sugar and improved nitrogen retention. Throw in a small serving of Poseidon if you've got it. You could keep that in a water bottle by your bed and steal a few gulps when you turn over or wake.

I am a bit skeptical that 10 g of BCAAs/EAAs will curb my hunger pangs but I'm willing to try anything. What do you think about adding some Fish Oil Caps? Will that impact my blood sugar too much?

What will Poseidon do for me in this context?

 

[EasyEJL]

I've been advised by some to stop eating protein late so I won't get thirsty

what kind of proteins are you eating late? solids or shakes?

 

[CHA0S]

i've heard of people waking up every 2-3 hours or so and eating like a steak they have sitting next to their bed. thats CRAZY

 

[drguitar78]

what kind of proteins are you eating late? solids or shakes?

1-2 hours before bed:
6 egg whites
2 egg yolks
1 cup kidney beans
1 piece toast

upon waking in the middle of the night:
1/2 scoop muscle milk (4.5 g fat, 7.5 g protein)
1 scoop whey (17 g)
8 oz skim milk

 

[drguitar78]

i've heard of people waking up every 2-3 hours or so and eating like a steak they have sitting next to their bed. thats CRAZY

haha..that's nuts! I actually mix my shakes before bed so I just do the zombie walk to the fridge while covering my eyes to prevent light exposure to my retina...suck it down, go take a leak while I'm brushing my teeth (try to kill two birds with one stone....it's really kinda funny I have a toothbrush in one hand, you-know-what in the other, my eyes shut and I'm trying to stay in the dream zone...). I do my best to not wake up too much.

 

[EasyEJL]

I would try for something like cottage cheese then as the 1-2 hrs prebed, that would be a little longer lasting. Also could try adding some psyllium husks to that pre-bed meal for extra fill fiber

 

[drguitar78]

I would try for something like cottage cheese then as the 1-2 hrs prebed, that would be a little longer lasting. Also could try adding some psyllium husks to that pre-bed meal for extra fill fiber

thanks,
I had to do a quick search to see what psyllium husk is....sounds like a useful supplement..esp. for heart health and regularity...but what do think about this interaction which I found on http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/psy_0214.shtml

"Psyllium may decrease the absorption of such minerals as zinc, copper, iron, calcium and magnesium if used concomitantly."

I've been pondering trying the ever-popular sleep/recovery supplements ZMA/ZMK which are partially based on zinc/magnesium supplementation...

any thoughts?

 

[EasyEJL]

hmm well, taken 1-2 hrs pre the zmk it should not be so bad, but i'm not really sure

 

[drguitar78]

I would try for something like cottage cheese then as the 1-2 hrs prebed, that would be a little longer lasting. Also could try adding some psyllium husks to that pre-bed meal for extra fill fiber

should I ADD cottage cheese or REPLACE with cottage cheese?...cause I'm worried about not getting enough prot/calories in

 

[EasyEJL]

either, but you are adding calcium, which also has a negative interaction with zmk. man I love zmk, MST really has a hit there.

 

[drguitar78]

hmmm..sounds like a delicate balancing act...

I gotta run to class now..thanks for the comments everyone..hope to continue the discussion later

 

[BeastMode]

glucomannan?

 

[pudzian2]

I can see drinking 10g or so of BCAAs, but not a whole protein shake.

as can I. I think that protein 10-30g depending on weight etc, wouldnt be too bad if really hungry. But i wouldnt wake up and eat a lot of calories of protein and fat and attempt to return to a sleep cycle. Think about what your body is experiencing: body- "wait, whats this nonsense, now i gotta churn all this up and digest it, is it daytime yet?" meanwhile your bodies energy is taken away from repair and GH secretion and all the healing qualities benefited by sleep, and is directed towards digestion and making you fat and farty. lol

 

[pudzian2]

i've heard of people waking up every 2-3 hours or so and eating like a steak they have sitting next to their bed. thats CRAZY

I know Jay Cutler, when he started cutting close to the 07' olympia, would eat every hour and a half or so, through the night, and would nap in between.....like a machine. I dont know if it was his best strategy to day, ( I can think of many reasons why it would NOT be a good idea, but there are some reasons that it could be beneficial to an athlete in his position.)

 

[Irish Cannon]

I'm all for being dedicated to bodybuilding, but there is no chance I'm ever giong to force myself to get up during the night to slam another meal. I'm getting around 6k calories every day; that's enough for me.

 

[pudzian2]

I'm all for being dedicated to bodybuilding, but there is no chance I'm ever giong to force myself to get up during the night to slam another meal. I'm getting around 6k calories every day; that's enough for me.

u never answered my cannon. How much you weigh? bf%?

 

[drguitar78]

I'm going to try the BCAAs tonight if(when) I wake up hungry. I'm also going to give the ZMA a shot 30 minutes before bedtime (~ midnight). So my last meal I'm going to plan to have at 9:30 pm, because the label reads to take the ZMA on an empty stomach.

Should I cut out my carbs at dinner time? By the way, I'm 170 lb, 12% BF (according to the handheld BF monitor)...16-17% according to the integrated scale/bodyfat monitor I just bought....WTF? I was PO'd when I saw that garbage..lol. Oh..one other thing I should mention, I'm ON...in my first week (1st time, TE (250 E5d)/Bold (200 E5d)) trying to bulk. I've been working out off and on for 10 years with ups and downs for various reasons. I've been going hard for 6 months now...I train instinctively cause I tend to hurt myself when I'm going by a pre-set itinerary..guess I try to do too much that way, but I'm wondering if I should have a mapped routine anyway...I don't know I guess I always had more fun in the gym training by how my body feels. I've been trying to take in 3000-3500 calories/day (which is A LOT for me...I have a hard time fitting that much food in my stomach in one day)...calorie breakdown is about 37% Prot/37% Carb/26% Fat. If I don't eat right before bedtime, and I don't snack throughout the night then my current diet plan drops to 2500 calories...pretty small for being ON don't you think? I can't do weightgainer (high carb, no fiber, bulking things) during the day cause they constipate me...I'm talking crapping rocks for a week from one or two shakes...soooooo...Please help if you can!

So here's the working plan if I decide to cut out the last meal before bedtime and reduce some of the late evening carbs:

9:30: chicken breast, romaine/red leaf salad with sprinkle olive oil/lime juice, tomtato, onion, green peppers, kidney beans. Fish oil caps. Saw Palmetto.

11:30: ZMA (should I take BCAAs here?)

if(when) I wake up hungry: 10 g BCAAs in H20

Any modifications recommended guys?

I really appreciate your help!

 

[EasyEJL]

I'm going to try the BCAAs tonight if(when) I wake up hungry. I'm also going to give the ZMA a shot 30 minutes before bedtime (~ midnight). So my last meal I'm going to plan to have at 9:30 pm, because the label reads to take the ZMA on an empty stomach.

Should I cut out my carbs at dinner time? By the way, I'm 170 lb, 12% BF (according to the handheld BF monitor)...16-17% according to the integrated scale/bodyfat monitor I just bought....WTF? I was PO'd when I saw that garbage..lol. Oh..one other thing I should mention, I'm ON...in my first week (1st time, TE (250 E5d)/Bold (200 E5d)) trying to bulk. I've been working out off and on for 10 years with ups and downs for various reasons. I've been going hard for 6 months now...I train instinctively cause I tend to hurt myself when I'm going by a pre-set itinerary..guess I try to do too much that way, but I'm wondering if I should have a mapped routine anyway...I don't know I guess I always had more fun in the gym training by how my body feels. I've been trying to take in 3000-3500 calories/day (which is A LOT for me...I have a hard time fitting that much food in my stomach in one day)...calorie breakdown is about 37% Prot/37% Carb/26% Fat. If I don't eat right before bedtime, and I don't snack throughout the night then my current diet plan drops to 2500 calories...pretty small for being ON don't you think? I can't do weightgainer (high carb, no fiber, bulking things) during the day cause they constipate me...I'm talking crapping rocks for a week from one or two shakes...soooooo...Please help if you can!

So here's the working plan if I decide to cut out the last meal before bedtime and reduce some of the late evening carbs:

9:30: chicken breast, romaine/red leaf salad with sprinkle olive oil/lime juice, tomtato, onion, green peppers, kidney beans. Fish oil caps. Saw Palmetto.

11:30: ZMA (should I take BCAAs here?)

if(when) I wake up hungry: 10 g BCAAs in H20

Any modifications recommended guys?

I really appreciate your help!

A little late now to say it but that looks good, the bcaas with ZMA are up to you, not really necessary, but shouldnt hurt either.

 

[EasyEJL]

heres a quote from another thread, may make you think twice

overeating has the same effect as drinking alcohol ( the liver just cant keep up ) they both inhibit the P450 system and therefore create a Testosterone to Estrogen conversion.

this is why its quite important to not eat before bed and only eat until about 80% full ( you should be able to exercise after eating a meal if need be)

so you don't want to overeat pre-bed, as it may make for more test->estro conversion during the nite.

 

[drguitar78]

hmmm..that's interesting. Thanks for the followup. Do you happen to know the pathway from overeating to p450 inhibition?...through liver overload? Sounds VERY interesting...so if this is solid logic, then one should always be weary of overeating?

I followed above protocol last night, but man I was hungry before I even went to bed! I had to have a spoonful of power pb to hold me over, otherwise I would never have fallen asleep. I took 10 g BCAAs right before bed in powder form mixed w/ water...is that stuff supposed to taste like rat poison!? I got bloated big time off of it too. Same thing when I woke up hungry, I took 8g in capsule form..got bloated again, very uncomfortable...didn't make for good sleep...on top of that, it didn't curb my appetite so I had another spoonful of power PB and went back to sleep..took me 20 minutes to get back to sleep...which sucked. All in all I slept pretty good last night ~10 hours worth and woke up less than usual...but If I could somehow get rid of that bloat, I think it would improve.

 

[PumpingIron]

eating in the middle of the night is an amazing way to grow...

 

[EasyEJL]

Maybe more of the PB is the way to go then. hmm

 

[pudzian2]

eating in the middle of the night is an amazing way to grow...

hey pumpingiron. Just out of curiosity if you don't mind. Could you share your pre and post workout meals (what time do you lift?), along with what you eat before bed and during the night.

 

[PumpingIron]

hey pumpingiron. Just out of curiosity if you don't mind. Could you share your pre and post workout meals (what time do you lift?), along with what you eat before bed and during the night.

about an hour preworkout i have an apple and a shake. the shake is 2 scoops of TP WPI, 1.25cups of ground oats and 12.5grams of bcaas.

during i take in 4 scoops of Xtend

immediately after I drink 1/4cup of ground oats and 1 scoop of TP WPI

within and hour I eat a meal, which is normally 1 of the following:
1. Low sodium Chili, made with 8oz ground chicken and 1/3cup brown basmati rice
2. Stir Fry, made with 8 oz Lean Chicken Breast, whatever vegetable I want and EVOO, and 1/3 cup brown basmati rice
3. 1/2 cup WW Pasta and a "no sugar added" meat sauce (8oz ground chicken)


Then, before bed it's 2 scoops of Casien, 12.5oz BCAAs, 1tbsp Metamucil in 12-16oz of Skim, plus 1/2cup FF Cottage Cheese, and 1oz of Unsalted nuts (usually pecans or almonds)


Currently I'm not eating anything in the middle of the night, but if I was having trouble gaining size and I wanted to break through a plateau, I would wake up 3-4 hrs after I fell asleep and have a small protein shake, something like 8oz skim, 1~1.5 scoops of casien and 10grams of bcaas.



EDIT: I lift between 4-5. My preworkout meal is meal 4.

 

[pudzian2]

about an hour preworkout i have an apple and a shake. the shake is 2 scoops of TP WPI, 1.25cups of ground oats and 12.5grams of bcaas.

during i take in 4 scoops of Xtend

immediately after I drink 1/4cup of ground oats and 1 scoop of TP WPI

within and hour I eat a meal, which is normally 1 of the following:
1. Low sodium Chili, made with 8oz ground chicken and 1/3cup brown basmati rice
2. Stir Fry, made with 8 oz Lean Chicken Breast, whatever vegetable I want and EVOO, and 1/3 cup brown basmati rice
3. 1/2 cup WW Pasta and a "no sugar added" meat sauce (8oz ground chicken)


Then, before bed it's 2 scoops of Casien, 12.5oz BCAAs, 1tbsp Metamucil in 12-16oz of Skim, plus 1/2cup FF Cottage Cheese, and 1oz of Unsalted nuts (usually pecans or almonds)


Currently I'm not eating anything in the middle of the night, but if I was having trouble gaining size and I wanted to break through a plateau, I would wake up 3-4 hrs after I fell asleep and have a small protein shake, something like 8oz skim, 1~1.5 scoops of casien and 10grams of bcaas.



EDIT: I lift between 4-5. My preworkout meal is meal 4.

Thanks man. I continue to experiment (as I'm sure you and everyone else does) until I find something that works best. Of course, bodybuilding is a process, and we are always learning our body....by the looks of your avi, you have a great physique and I was just interested in your diet. I appreciate the info.

 

[Irish Cannon]

u never answered my cannon. How much you weigh? bf%?

5'8. 218 lbs. maybe 13% bf.

 

[John Smeton]

I have an opportunity witht his as I get up and eat nightly usually. I say if you do have "junk food" in the house hide it and go for a protein shake if you mUST get up and eat. I keep water by my bed in case Im thirsty.

 

[bLacKjAck.]

I never wake up in the middle of the night to eat. I grow just fine...

 

[Force of Green]

This depends on your goals. If you don't care about carrying a gut, wake up and eat waffles at 4am if it makes you happy. lol. If you care about your midsection, have some discipline and willpower and cut off your food 2-3 hours before bed. I made this change and notice and feel the difference.

 

[John Smeton]

This depends on your goals. If you don't care about carrying a gut, wake up and eat waffles at 4am if it makes you happy. lol. If you care about your midsection, have some discipline and willpower and cut off your food 2-3 hours before bed. I made this change and notice and feel the difference.

not the best approach for maxium musclegrowth

 

[Force of Green]

not the best approach for maxium musclegrowth

I used to have casein or isolate shakes ready to drink at night when I wake up, etc. I was just plumper and more bloated. When I wake up in the morning, I break the fast by downing 25 grams of isolate/hydrosolate whey. To each his own. Now... on roids, it's a different story.

 

[strategicmove]

The following is a contribution by Millennium 1 that many might find useful:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Millennium 1:
Let me start off by saying that I am not an big advocate of pre-bedtime meals whether they are strickly isolated to protein or are protein/carb/fat blends. In my opinion, contrary to recent popularity a meal, snack, protein shake, macronutrients etc. right before bed only encourages a hormonally incorrect environment.

I know that this goes against some of the recent thoughts on muscle gain but when conditions are right sleep on an empty stomach is anabolic because growth hormone can be secreted efficiently without being squandered or shut down by an insulin response or higher blood lipid count. Regardless of the pre bed meal insulin will have to be released in some capacity and insulin in any capacity will negate growth hormone.

I've used this principal in my diet and training and when training others over the past few years with far more success than than incorporating calories directly before retiring.

My advise is to consume your last meal or shake 1.5-2 hours before bed. This allows for the stomach to empty, the meal to metabolize and blood sugar levels to drop faster allowing a faster onset of quality growth hormone producing REM sleep. If growth hormone is present sleep is anabolic. If growth hormone isn't present then sleep is far more likely to be catabolic regardless of what you did or didn't consume before bed.

I personally take my pre bed shake (whey isolate/milk isolate/ egg/micellar casein) at 9:00pm. I then take my pre-bed sleep supplements like ZMK or Somnidren-GH at 11:00pm. My sleep and recovery are far greater than when I was taking my shake right before bed. I find that the supps kick in much faster and work much better and I find it to be much more anabolic.

I know this isn't the popular belief in the bodybuilding scene but it is the hormonally correct thing to do. Marketing of pre-bed protein blends has had it's way with our thinking and led us astray. They are still very effective if you time it right and don't take them too close to retiring.

 

[Force of Green]

I listened to Millenium 1 and I am liking the results.

 

[PumpingIron]

I used to have casein or isolate shakes ready to drink at night when I wake up, etc. I was just plumper and more bloated. When I wake up in the morning, I break the fast by downing 25 grams of isolate/hydrosolate whey. To each his own. Now... on roids, it's a different story.

I am pretty sure I carry a lower BF than you...so it really depends on the person's metabolism and lifestyle.

You shouldn't base your diet completely on someone elses. Just as Pud has said above.

 

[newbie arnie]

when ur at sleep ur body is at rest and so begins the recovery process if ur gettin up to eat u need to make sure that ur not loseing out on sleep you need to compensate

 

[pudzian2]

I am pretty sure I carry a lower BF than you...so it really depends on the person's metabolism and lifestyle.

You shouldn't base your diet completely on someone elses. Just as Pud has said above.

:cheers:

 

[Force of Green]

I am pretty sure I carry a lower BF than you...so it really depends on the person's metabolism and lifestyle.

You shouldn't base your diet completely on someone elses. Just as Pud has said above.

Like I said, to each his own. But I am glad you are sure about one thing in life

 

[SteelEntity]

You need to listen to your body, if you wake up hungry then eat. Not too complicated.

 

[PumpingIron]

You need to listen to your body, if you wake up hungry then eat. Not too complicated.

Even so. There are plenty of times in which my body says don't eat, and I know it's been 3 hours, and I force down 500-600 cals.

So I'm a proponant of sticking to a plan.

 

[gotripped]

i'd much rather NOT eat in the middle of the night as it makes my sleep disrupted and i begin to sweat as well after consumption of food. I would much rather down around 5-10g of BCAAs before my sleep cycle is in effect. I feel that this will keep me throughout the night. Sleep is much more important to me.

 

[Force of Green]

I've eaten close to bed before and consumed shakes almost right before bed in the past and sometimes I'll not have any interrupted sleep patterns.

I know that whenever I take my faithful growth hormone booster, I'll knock out and stay out even if I eat a Thanksgiving shmorgasborg right before I lay down.

 

[drguitar78]

I tried not to eat for a couple nights during sleep and ended up losing a lot of sleep because I was REALLY hungry. I am ON cycle right now, but even without the xtra hormones, I've been this way for years. I do notice sometimes that I have a hard time going back to sleep if I eat too much when I wake up and like gotripped said...I have gotten sweats after food intake...

I tried the BCAAs and got bloated...has anybody else experienced this?

 

[Force of Green]

If it works good for you, then keep at it. Oryx Goat Whey is a good source of protein to get aminos in the body at night without causing much metabolic distress, as most of the protein is predigested. Goat's milk resembles human milk MUCH more than milk from a cow. It's easier on your system and there's no bloat.

 

[beebab]

for me, whether or not i eat before bed depends upon the way my daily food sched plays out. i usually work out around 8PM and finish around 9, so my PWO is at 9 and my next full meal is an hour or so later, a little after 10 - this consists of protein and healthy fats/ minimal carbs, usually eggs veggies and olive oil. on non-training days, sometimes my last meal just happens to be around the time i go to bed, so i drink some casein and have a couple tbsp's of peanut butter then hit the sack a little after that.

then before bed, i have a tablespoon or two of natty peanut butter, some glutamine/ leucine in water and fish oils. my sleep never gets disturbed. i don't usually find myself hungry either when i wake up mid-night, mostly cuz i'm too tired to even consider the notion of eating and fall back asleep.

HOWEVER, last night i tried not having anything before bed except some glutamine. i woke up during the night feeling very hungry and actually could not fall back asleep until i drank some BCAAs.

case in point, i think a little food before bed isn't a negative thing at all. in the interest of promoting a fully recuperative sleep cycle and lessening weight gain, i'd only advise against eating a full meal prebed and therefore going to bed feeling stuffed.