You've lifted twice a day and... ?

[Grunt76]

How did you find it?

Personally, the very best results I have ever obtained was by doing so. I could kill the cardio completely and train 8 times a week 4 days x 2 or event 10, 12 workouts a week. I'd gain size like mad and rip to shreds while eating like a monster. It was GREAT. :woohoo:

Of course, getting older and bigger, when the mid-30's came, I could no longer do that when unassisted. Granted, it also eats up time like nothing else, and isn't for everyone, but IMO it can be very beneficial if done properly. What do you guys think?

 

[wideguy]

Did it awhile back when I was in my late teens (I'm 26 now an to be honest really havent' had the luxury of having the time to do this since then). When I did though it was real similar to what you said. I gained size and got very lean. However I took naps in the middle of the day and basically acted like a pro bodybuilder minus all the gear, and I probably didn't have as much diet knowledge back then as I do now. In fact not probably definitly did not.

I like to do a bodypart a day or maybe two small bodyparts split into two sessions. Morning I went heavy (more sets and less reps) and at night I went ligheter (less sets more reps. Still kept my workouts to under 30 minutes to 45 minutes tops. SO my total time was about the same. BTW Christiane Thibiduea (sp?) over a t-mag wrote and article awhile back about how he went over to Europe (I think it was Europe) and that was how their bodybuilders trained, twice a day. If you want the link ask and I'll try and find it. Good article. ALso before that I remember Charles Poliquin talking about it back in Muscle Media before anyone else really seamed to (or lets just say that was the first place I say that idea laid out).

 

[somewhatgifted]

If i train and do ANY thing else, or overtrain i lose visible inches in size. My metabolism has slowed but i lose 1.2 inches in a week on my arms when i hit em hard and didnt eat enough. I think for hard gainers this is hit or really big miss. Grunt you animal..:box:

 

[bioman]

At 33, it would probably be too much for me. I have scaled back my training to a 9 or 11 day split and notice a lot less CNS taxation with decent but slower gains. Prior to this, I would train 4 days a week, gain a lot of lbm on cycle but lose a lot post cycle and then have to deal with all sorts of over training symptoms.

Now I am focusing on keeping gains long term rather than yo-yoing but then I'm not shooting for anything close to pro level BBing.

 

[Whiskey Steve]

I find lifting twice a day to be a very efficienty way to overtrain and get really really sick (pnemonia, bronchitus).

also a good way for me to get fat and loose muscle mass and strength


im not fan

 

[jminis]

I love lifting twice a day when I'm cutting. Get's my metabolism up and allows me to really focus on each bodypart. Being a PT i'm always at the gym so I have it a little easier then most.

 

[doggzj]

This is actually something I'm looking into right now. From what I've mostly read, if you do split 2x a day, you need to keep sets down. If you do X sets per day normally, 2x a day workouts should have a similar set range, so that overall, you are having the same type of volume. This will avoid the CNS overtraining many people are talking about here.

Also, if you hit the gym at say 8am then again at 6pm, you can benifit from the post-workout nutrient partitioning affects throughout the day. I think this is the biggest benifit of workouting out twice per day.

 

[CROWLER]

Guys that are training 2 times a day are you using the same program and just splitting it up or actually doing more sets, reps etc.

Eg. Ok let's say a person is doing 2 body parts 3 times a week so would you just do one body part AM and the second body part PM?


CROWLER

 

[Grunt76]

Guys that are training 2 times a day are you using the same program and just splitting it up or actually doing more sets, reps etc.

Eg. Ok let's say a person is doing 2 body parts 3 times a week so would you just do one body part AM and the second body part PM?


CROWLER

That's the way I did it, adding perhaps a few sets, so that each workout would last 40 minutes or so. I've seen guys do 2 x 60 min., but then again I like to keep the intensity up during my workouts, especially that with this training regimen, pretty much no cardio gets done.

 

[ryansm]

I do it all of the time, as do a lot of other competitive weightlifters. As a bb'er I am not so sure as to the extra benefits it would have.

 

[LCSULLA]

Did when I was in HS, but I would burn out to quick.

 

[lifted]

I would lose LBM by the hour if I did it. Right now, I can only train twice/week to be able to recover. And not the same bodyparts twice/week, I only train a different session twice. Like this: Sunday will be chest/tris, and Friday will be back/bis, and then on wednesday of the following week I'll hit my delts/deads/legs. Then 5 days later I will start with chest/tris again. Genetics suck, lemme be the first to say.

 

[SMALLTIMER]

About four years ago i made my first bodybuilding purchase it was a great book to me is called(THE NEW ENCYCLOPEDIA OF MODERN BODYBUILDING).I know it sound lame but hell at that time i love Arnold physique and still do so y try his workout.Here's the split i followed day 1. chest,back a.m. legs p.m.
Day 2.a.m.shoulders,arms,forearms. p.m.Calves and abs everynight Day.3 rest repeat for 2 days. I made great agains using that method of training.Reason being i think because that amount of volume shock and stimulant muscle growth.I did for about 5 weeks around week 4 with my job and all i had became exhausted. i wasnt really into taking supplements then i'm sure that would have help me long. But i like the twice a day jmo!

 

[phil216]

Doing 2 sessions per day would lead to gross overtraing for the overwhelming majority of people, especially if that are clean.

 

[CROWLER]

Doing 2 sessions per day would lead to gross overtraing for the overwhelming majority of people, especially if that are clean.

A number of guys are talking about doing the same number of sets and reps they usually do but just splitting it in 2 not doing 2 full workouts each day.


CROWLER

 

[Grunt76]

A number of guys are talking about doing the same number of sets and reps they usually do but just splitting it in 2 not doing 2 full workouts each day.


CROWLER

Yes. It is widely known that 2 exercise sessions in one day stimulate growth hormone release in MUCH greater amounts than one single session.

Moreover, when training sessions last above 45 minutes, cortisol release increases rapidly, as shown by ample research.

So it isn't as black-and-white as it seems on the surface...

 

[CROWLER]

Yes. It is widely known that 2 exercise sessions in one day stimulate growth hormone release in MUCH greater amounts than one single session.

Moreover, when training sessions last above 45 minutes, cortisol release increases rapidly, as shown by ample research.

So it isn't as black-and-white as it seems on the surface...

Grunt I used to quote the cortisol increase and test decrease when a training session lasts longer than 45 minutes but does it really make sense?

Let's say one guy does 15 sets in 45 minutes and another guy does 25 because of different amounts of rest. I don't see how they both are about to increse cortisol release? You see what I mean?


CROWLER

 

[CROWLER]

Ok I am going to test this 2 workouts per day thing-a-ma-gig.

I will keep the same number of reps and sets, exercises etc. I would think I will be able to more weight on some exercises such as close grip bench as I will have had a much longer rest after doing regular bench.

I am going to cut for a week and take a week off of all training and give this a try.

Any suggestions appreciated.


CROWLER

 

[Beelzebub]

and i got tired. plus it interfered with eating, so it had to go.

 

[somewhatgifted]

what happens when you train say quads for 45 min then switch to bis for 45 min thay are not really involved in the training of the other, does the 45 min cortisol rule mean 45 total or 45 per muscle.

 

[Beelzebub]

legitimate question but i'd have to say you're overthinking it. also, 45 minutes of bi's? good lord.

 

[Grunt76]

Well if I remember correctly, total amount of volume was not very significant while the workout duration was a singificant factor in cortisol release. I tried finding the studies again recently - I remember it was on pubmed, but could not find them again. So it's memory-based I guess... :think: The 25-set person will also get a much greater hGH response out of his workout.

But of course some will say that any spike in insulin post-workout will blunt the effects of cortisol. This might be true of skeletal muscle, but I am sure cortisol affects other tissues also although I am a little in the vague as to what, how and how much. Sadly I am again tonight unable to find the studies to back up my word.

 

[Grunt76]

It's 45-minutes per workout. Well actually, I remember that this fairly extensive study showed optimal GH levels between 37 and 45 minutes, and significant increase in cortisol after the 45-minute mark, meaning that for each minute after the 45th, more and more cortisol is being released.

To top all that off, I just re-read today studies that show a much more pronounced total-Test and free-Test response to resistance exercise in younger men VS older men, whereas cortisol response doesn't change with age but does change WRT athlete status, meaning that trained athletes have a lesser cortisol response.

 

[somewhatgifted]

legitimate question but i'd have to say you're overthinking it. also, 45 minutes of bi's? good lord.

well i usually go between muscle groups like if i did chest and bi's id do my first chest movement then my second and after the second id add in bis going back and forth instead of resting between sets. so id do bench, dips, barbell curls, flyes, preacher hammers, pull overs, concentration curls, finish with one or two sets of each bis and chest with low weight high reps to get one last good pump before i head to go stretch. I may be overtraining so recently ive reduced my workouts as less is more when overtraining is involved.

Thanks grunt im goona go balls to the wall and get the F*&k out of there. No more 1.25 hour workouts, even with two body parts.:study:

 

[Beelzebub]

IMO, the larger muscle groups don't need any more than 2-3 exercises. smaller ones, no more than 2. i count 4 there for chest and 3 for bi's, you may very well be overtraining. try less and see what happens for a stint. as for length of workouts, that varies for me. since i follow DC training, i can't imagine being done with quads/hams/forearms/bi's/calves in less than an hour. not to mention with the stretches. i never understood why everyone is in such a rush to get out of the gym. it ain't nascar.

 

[CROWLER]

It's 45-minutes per workout. Well actually, I remember that this fairly extensive study showed optimal GH levels between 37 and 45 minutes, and significant increase in cortisol after the 45-minute mark, meaning that for each minute after the 45th, more and more cortisol is being released.

To top all that off, I just re-read today studies that show a much more pronounced total-Test and free-Test response to resistance exercise in younger men VS older men, whereas cortisol response doesn't change with age but does change WRT athlete status, meaning that trained athletes have a lesser cortisol response.

37 - 45 minutes is perfect. My current workouts take approx 1 hour 20 mins even though I only do 15 work sets. So now I will divide it in half and each workout will be approx 40 mins.

Hey I might even have time to work calves and abs which I don't do now


CROWLER

 

[Grunt76]

Yeh, optimal hGH response + insulin = IGF-1. If hGH is high at the same time as insulin, the liver combines them together and makes IGF-1. This is followed, shortly thereafter, by an expression of IGFBP, which has the job of "mopping up" any IGF that hasn't successfully attached to a receptor, but in the natural athlete this mechanism doesn't come into action because the amount of IGF-1 isn't huge compared to the amount of receptors activated through the exercise.

This is the reason so many advocate a high-GI post-workout shake even if the amount of carbs involved seems small, such as 50g dextrose. This has nothing to do with glycogen replenishment or synthesis although it certainly doesn't hinder. Combined with a hypertrophy wourkout, I find this is efficient.

 

[Beelzebub]

but you forgot one thing......those are a lot of big words.

anyhoo, what's good for the goose ain't always good for the gander. some guys can get by with dextrose for PostWO, but the carb sensitive fellows need to stay away from it. i find blended up oatmeal with whey works great for pre and post.

 

[jminis]

Guys that are training 2 times a day are you using the same program and just splitting it up or actually doing more sets, reps etc.

Eg. Ok let's say a person is doing 2 body parts 3 times a week so would you just do one body part AM and the second body part PM?


CROWLER

Well I do it when I'm cutting so I still only train each body part once a week. The other days I leave my muslce alone and do HIIT style cardio.

 

[LakeMountD]

We do that here at FSU for football over the summer. I lift for about 50-70 minutes around 11:00 am in the morning then we have to be back at the field at 5:00 pm to do heavy sprints or agility type work. I can tell you the fatloss is outstanding. I am a hardcore ecto, however, so it can be frustrating at times. Luckily since it was summer I was able to sleep a lot in between and eat like crazy. Here is what I looked like when I was doing it. I actually did gain about 6 more lbs than I am here (all lean mass) while I was doing all of this.

 

[somewhatgifted]

We do that here at FSU for football over the summer. I lift for about 50-70 minutes around 11:00 am in the morning then we have to be back at the field at 5:00 pm to do heavy sprints or agility type work. I can tell you the fatloss is outstanding. I am a hardcore ecto, however, so it can be frustrating at times. Luckily since it was summer I was able to sleep a lot in between and eat like crazy. Here is what I looked like when I was doing it. I actually did gain about 6 more lbs than I am here (all lean mass) while I was doing all of this.

You look ripped and powerful, keep it up you abviously found something that works for you, given your admiration of your accomplishments.:woohoo:

 

[refrieddreams]

I got some of my best results with an expieriment I did a few years back. I was lifting twice a day and going no where so I...

Took 5 days off and lifted once a week. One movement/set per body part to failure.

It looked like this:

Weighted chins
Incline DB press
Preacher curl
Weighted dips
SLDL's
Squats
Calf raises
DB shoulder press

Every movement to failure.

I did this for 8 weeks, documented everything. My strength went way up, also my rep count went way up.

When I first started I could do 8 good chins with a dip belt blus 20#'s at the and I was doing 8-10 with 60#'s

My lady couldn't do any chins un-assisted, at the end she was doing 6 with 25#'s added...

Pretty cool.

Moral of the story...Do not overtrain!

 

[ginhead]

does anyone train the same body part twice a day or just different bodyparts?

I've been cutting for a while and have been able to keep (slightly) increasing weights on everything except chest. I really seem to run out of strength after doing two main pressing exercises. I really want to switch stuff up, so I was thinking of trying this:

AM:
Chest Pressing Exercise 1
Chest Pressing Exercise 2

PM:
Ancillary delt work (same as current workout)
Chest Isolation Exercise 2

I'd keep volume exactly the same, but see the benefit as 1) getting to have two pre/post workout meals and b) rest/recovery time should allow me to put more effort into the second half of the workout. Anybody think this is worth trying or just nuts?
-jeff

 

[Grunt76]

I wouldn't even try that. I think the goal is HIT and RUN, meaning, give the stimulus for growth, then REST. If you work the same bodypart again, you're just giving the same stimulus to a muscle that has just received it a few hours ago.

I think the main reason for the 2xD thing is the enhanced hGH pulse, and added INTENSITY to "second" bodypart. By this I mean if you do chest & triceps, you will be less intense with your tris if you were at max intensity with chest, unless you keep it REALLY short...

 

[MasterMind]

:head:

 

[Mason]

Alright well this summer I was thinking about going 2ce a day. This is how I would go about it.

Run 20-30 minutes at a fast pace.
Work out 1

HEAVIEST WEIGHT I CAN DO REPS ON
3x8 Seated Chest Press
3x8 Pec Dec
3x8 Pulldowns
4x8 Seated Row
6x8 Curls
3x10 Wrist curls
3x8 Leg Extentions
3x8 Chest pull downs
3x8 Leg Press
3x10 Dips
3x20 Millitary press.
500 Sit-up variations.

Work out 2
HALF OF MY MAXES
3x15 Seated Chest Press
3x15 Pec Dec
3x12 Pulldowns
4x15 Seated Row
3x16 Curls
3x10 Wrist curls
3x10 Leg Extentions
3x10 Chest pull downs
3x15 Leg Press
3x5 Dips
3x20 Millitary press.
500 Sit-up variations.

I would be taking protein and creatine.
I would also be swimming in the pool a good bit of the day.

 

[doggzj]

Honestly, I think working out twice per day is good for reason Grunt said. Hit one bodypart in the morning, and a different in the evening. Doing the same muscle twice in the same day is probably not the best idea.

 

[Mason]

So heavy in the morning and very light in the evening is a no-no? Even when intaking alot of protien and creatines and bcaa/eaas to help prevent muscle breakdown/ increase protein synthesis.

 

[doggzj]

The only two reasons I can think of doing 2 a days for is:

1) Improving metabolic rate
2) More energy for later exercises
2b) Possible manuplation of hormones...

There is no point to train light unless you are trying to improve endurance.

 

[Mason]

The only two reasons I can think of doing 2 a days for is:

1) Improving metabolic rate
2) More energy for later exercises
2b) Possible manuplation of hormones...

There is no point to train light unless you are trying to improve endurance.

1@2 are the main reasons, the morning work out is for stregnth and size. The after-noon is just for endurance and to keep blood flowing and some quick muscle twitch fibers.

 

[Grunt76]

What you need to do is stimulate growth, and then let it happen. By training again at night, even light, you are possibly preventing this from happening. Unless it's VERY light, and very far from failure. And even then, I think if your postworkout nutrition is sound, a second weights workout would be much better spent on kicking another bodypart than playing the fine line between creating a refeed effect and catabolism.

 

[Mason]

What you need to do is stimulate growth, and then let it happen. By training again at night, even light, you are possibly preventing this from happening. Unless it's VERY light, and very far from failure. And even then, I think if your postworkout nutrition is sound, a second weights workout would be much better spent on kicking another bodypart than playing the fine line between creating a refeed effect and catabolism.

It will be no more than 20 lbs for each exercise and by no means will it be to fatigue-failure. I just guess I have to see how it goes for me.

 

[Grunt76]

Hey CROWLER bro, did you do your experiment?

 

[Fearhk213]

Good thread. I've done a few stretches at training twice a day. I saw an in increase in fat-loss for one. Of course that was directly related to diet but it definately helped. I tried to limit my time in the gym to 45 mins. give or take since I knew I'd be there later. Which is very interesting from what's been said about the hgh thing. When my workouts were quicker, in 45 min range rather than around 1 1/2 hours (which I'm known to do),I always felt my workouts and pumps were better. I wouldn't lose my pump, growth was good, and I just generally felt better. I felt like I had sufficiently worked the trained muscle without frying my nervous system. When going in for the second session I felt I could hit that muscle at 100% and not about 70%. I thought it interesting when I'd do two body parts in one sessions rather than over two sessions I inevitably take longer to do the same amount of sets (probably a mental thing). I definately found spending no more than 45 min on a major muscle group rather than an 1hour to do the same routine is definately the better workout. If I could get in twice a day consistently I'd stick with it, but the school schedule doesn't allow for that.

I do think it's wise to mostly stick to doing major and minor groups (ie: chest/am and tri's/pm). Although the occassional Chest and Back would be good. I think I'd be total wreck if I did the chest/back am and legs pm on a consistent basis.

I just thougth of something. Since nutrient timing is an issue do you think some of the benefit to training twice a day is because the 1st muscle trained doesn't have to wait going through 1 or 2 more body parts before you're feeding it? I'm sure pre-workout nutrition could affect this as well, but what are ya'lls thoughts on this?

 

[exnihilo]

Yes. It is widely known that 2 exercise sessions in one day stimulate growth hormone release in MUCH greater amounts than one single session.

Moreover, when training sessions last above 45 minutes, cortisol release increases rapidly, as shown by ample research.

So it isn't as black-and-white as it seems on the surface...

Growth hormone release from exercise is a joke, supraphysiological doses of growth hormone have negligible anabolic properties.

This is actually useful for highly technical lifters such as olympic lifters, as the majority of training is technical in nature and you tend to perform better when "fresh" in technical endeavors.

For bodybuilders, I think there is a limit to how much you can break down your workouts into smaller and smaller pieces. I think there is a dose-response curve for exercise stimuli, and at certain points on the curve doing one third the work three times will add up to less than doing all the work in one sitting (this has been shown under certain circumstances in studies).

Edit: Just a note since I missed the portion of the discussion about workout duration... I notice that how I feel leaving the gym is highly correlated with my lift increases the next time I go in. If I leave the gym with a huge endorphin rush, I do great next time up. If I leave feeling drained, I do ****ty. Just a correlation, but it's significant enough that I try for it each workout. I find that 45-60 minutes of training with 2-4 minute rest periods and 3-5 warmup sets for each exercise, with 2-4 exercises (depending on what exercises I'm doing) tends to give me that feeling.

 

[phil216]

What you need to do is stimulate growth, and then let it happen. By training again at night, even light, you are possibly preventing this from happening. Unless it's VERY light, and very far from failure. And even then, I think if your postworkout nutrition is sound, a second weights workout would be much better spent on kicking another bodypart than playing the fine line between creating a refeed effect and catabolism.

I can not agree more with the your first sentence, That put a very big smile on my face!!!!!1

 

[mpkonig]

now....working out twice a day.....how about doing cardio 2 times a day....say like at 6am do 1 hour....and then at like 6pm do an hour?? throw in a lifting session around 1pm.....would that be good for a person on a cutting cycle...or is that over doing it...? All the cardio is low intensity walking with some resistance added to it (eliptical)

 

[cromwell]

did it for college atheletics, also when i was younger I often did am weight and then pm cardio
eating enough was even harder, and it was already very hard
I'm 40 now , so **** that noise! Even if I used AAS it would be too much for my recovery system
If you are young enough and tailor it intelligently, It can be very successful provided that
1) you have time
2) your nutrition and supplementation is very good
3) adequate rest and sleep.....especially importantfor two a days!
4) after 6 years in the Corps, 4x a week once a day is just fine with me! Talk about 2 a days..try the military!

 

[njmuscle66]

I can understand POSSIBLY splitting up cardio and weight training sessions to put yourself in the gym twice a day. ( I dont even do that precontest any more) I think the current training mantra currently is .........less is more. Most of my program designs utilize full body training. Train the body as a whole-rest it as a whole. The average trainer unless chemically enhanced would be grossly overtrained and just because you can do more sets for a bodypart you have to consider the idea of dimminishing returns. Hit the body hard with compound exercies for 8-10 total work sets and get out of the gym

 

[cromwell]

I can understand POSSIBLY splitting up cardio and weight training sessions to put yourself in the gym twice a day. ( I dont even do that precontest any more) I think the current training mantra currently is .........less is more. Most of my program designs utilize full body training. Train the body as a whole-rest it as a whole. The average trainer unless chemically enhanced would be grossly overtrained and just because you can do more sets for a bodypart you have to consider the idea of dimminishing returns. Hit the body hard with compound exercies for 8-10 total work sets and get out of the gym

I agree, my comment was pretty much geared towards athletes who often spend an inordinate amount of time training. Powerlifters also stucture their training differently and I know some that do some session splitting. For joe average bodybuilder, I would say less is more for sure! Some people like the seperate cardio thing precontest...I think that is rather related to individual metablolism and eating habits. Also nutritional information and supplementation is much better than it was say 10 years ago...so trends will change. All that being said...whatever works best keep it ....the **** that does'nt work fix it . A little bit of wisdom from powerlifter Dave Tate. If you track things it is actually not that hard to do