Overtraining does it exist

[mkurtzhals]

I train with high intensity and I am sure I overtrain to a point but making great gains. Should I tone it down or keep it up. Thanks

 

[jarhead]

Yes it does exist. Get enough time off, train,rest,grow.

 

[TheCrownedOne]

If it's working, change nothing. This should be obvious.

 

[jminis]

If it's working, change nothing. This should be obvious.

Agreed, if your making "great" gains, then your not overtraining.

 

[CRUNCH]

You could start keeping track of your resting pulse for a more objective way to look at it.

When you wake up tomorrow, before you even get out of bed, check your pulse for a full minute. Do this about once a week. If you suddenly notice your average number take a big jump, you're probably overtraining. Then take a few days off and recover.

Side note: when you take your OWN pulse, use your thumb. Since it has the same pulse as your wrist, it will enhance what your feel. You only need to use two fingers when taking someone elses pulse.

 

[glenihan]

overtraining specific muscles definitely exists and overtaxing the CNS absolutely exists

 

[Beowulf]

You'll know when you're overtraining b/c you won't be gaining, you'll feel lethargic all the time, and you'll get sick easily.

Good info, Crunch

 

[CRUNCH]

Thanks Beo!

When I was competing, I'd use the pulse checks a lot. It seems I'd notice the rise in resting HR before I started feeling like crap...kind of an early warning system. I could then take 2 days off and be good by the third day, rather than waiting unitl I felt like **** and had to take a week off.

This all reminded me of something else too. Don't take your pulse in your neck. There are barorecptors located there, they help regulate blood pressure. Since your BP and HR have an inverse relationship, if you push there, your body will think it's BP has gone up, thereby reducing your HR and giving you a false lower reading.

Unless you want to wear a polar monitor to bed, the thumb on your wrist is the best. It works!

 

[bioman]

Word Crunch-man!

Yep, overtraining is probably were most newbies spend their time. After making those big initial gains you're usually all enthusiastic to make more, train harder et cetera, then the gains stop and you train even harder and harder until tendons start to get damaged. This is what I did and my shoulder paid quite a price.

Finding your sweet spot in terms of training frequency can be tough but is a very important aspect of BBing.

I now lift only two days per week and mentally, I feel a lot better. I'm rearing to go when I hit the gym and have far fewer joint/tendon issues.

 

[CRUNCH]

BIOMAN!! How ya been!!

 

[bioman]

Doin good. House renovations are trying to eat away my gains but I'm fighting back :twisted:

 

[Mr.50]

Guys I seem to overtrain quite easily and at relativly low volumes of activity relative to others. I never had great recovery but it has gotten worse over the years. I am only 31 right now but my exercise tolerance is actually quite low. I can make great gains in size and weight either off (not bad) or on AAS (great) but nonetheless I am always left with that fatigued and lethargic feeling all the time. So even though my training is improving, the rest of the day I feel pretty shitty. Do you guys have any helpful advice? I just went through a long layoff and now in my second week of training again I feel the lethargy already coming back.

 

[Beelzebub]

i can tell when i break is in order. i train pretty f'ing hard 4x/wk hitting each bodypart twice in a weeks time. after 6-7 weeks, my body feels used and abused, definately time for a break. last time, 5 days was enough and i felt ready to roll again. just gotta watch for it, you can always tell when it's coming. feel tired all day, workouts drag by without enthusiasm, not hungry, etc.

 

[meowmeow]

Mr.50 you may have sleep apnea. This problem will greatly reduce your recovery ability and overall energy level. You are at an age where it might start to show up.

If you snore or snort, wake up in the morning with a headache, or just fail to feel rested after you wake you might have this condition.

If you have these symptoms try sleeping on your side to reduce the problem. However full treatment requires use of the medical profession and nightly CAP machine use.

 

[Spitdeath]

Guys I seem to overtrain quite easily and at relativly low volumes of activity relative to others. I never had great recovery but it has gotten worse over the years. I am only 31 right now but my exercise tolerance is actually quite low. I can make great gains in size and weight either off (not bad) or on AAS (great) but nonetheless I am always left with that fatigued and lethargic feeling all the time. So even though my training is improving, the rest of the day I feel pretty shitty. Do you guys have any helpful advice? I just went through a long layoff and now in my second week of training again I feel the lethargy already coming back.

Do you train to failure all the time? Post what your workout is

 

[-2z-]

My tolerance for work done has actually increased over that last couple of years.
You might want to research GPP (General Physical Preparedness) which is a fancy way of saying "how much work your body is prepared to do".
A greater GPP doesn't stop OT'ing in and of itself, but it does help decrease your recovery time, which is always good.

 

[Mr.50]

Thanks for all of these great sugestions guys. I have to say that it is likely a combination of a number of things. First of all in the past I have always trained to failure and I recently made a strong resolution not to. So hopefully that will help. Also I think that there is a good chance that I do have sleep apnea because I snore really loudly, have chronic depression (which is associated), and my girlfriend has remarked that sometimes it seems like I will stop breathing for a while and then start suddenly breathing again when I am asleep. Is there any way to get a CPAP machaine without a Dr.s intervention because I would love to try it but I really dont have the money right now for a full sleep study and possibly the CPAP machine. Unfortunatly I am in the process of getting my health insurance changed over also.

Also I will look into researching the general physical preparedness. Sounds interesting.

Mr.50

 

[meowmeow]

Is there any way to get a CPAP machaine without a Dr.s intervention because I would love to try it but I really dont have the money right now for a full sleep study and possibly the CPAP machine.

Unfortunatly those machine manufacturers/sellers require a prescription which also will tell them how to set-up the machine which was learned from your sleep study.

I'm in the same boat as you. I've put off the study for several months.

My father had sleep apnea and uses a CPAP machine and when he started with the machine immediately his energy level sky-rocketed and his mood was elevated. He was able to exercise longer and more frequently. He had a new desire to exercise. His legs didn't tire from long walks at the mall. He claimed his sexual energy/performance/libido was more consistent. In short he became a younger man.

I believe I have sleep apnea. I am not able to do long work-outs (i.e longer than 1hr) without bringing on difficulty in recovery.

This is something we probably should pay attention to and not put off to much longer.

 

[PVSkyHigh]

Longer than 1 hour of working out brings me some difficulty in recovering, that doesnt necessarily mean I nor you, have sleep apnea. After an hour of hard exercise your glycogen must be on the verge of depletion.

 

[meowmeow]

Longer than 1 hour of working out brings me some difficulty in recovering, that doesnt necessarily mean I nor you, have sleep apnea. After an hour of hard exercise your glycogen must be on the verge of depletion.

Good points. However I also have all of the other sleep apnea symptoms.

 

[Mr.50]

Anyone know if you
need a prescription for any of the online places that sell CPAP machines?

Good points. However I also have all of the other sleep apnea symptoms.

 

[meowmeow]

Anyone know if you
need a prescription for any of the online places that sell CPAP machines?

All of the online places I've checked out require a script. I was thinking you could buy a used machine without but Ebay's policy states:

Examples of prescription items not permitted on eBay include, but are not limited to:

...
CPAP machines

 

[Mr.50]

F$#^

All of the online places I've checked out require a script. I was thinking you could buy a used machine without but Ebay's policy states:

Examples of prescription items not permitted on eBay include, but are not limited to:

...
CPAP machines

 

[spatch]

Decreased motivation is a big side effect too. Overtraining has a way of almost preventing itself by this(almost). Whenever I over train, I dont feel like going to the gym, thus, giving my self time to recover.

 

[Mr.50]

See it sucks because even when I don't feel like it I force myself to go. Then it gets worse and even my motivation for other areas of my life lessens. Eventually it is a total burnout for a while.

Decreased motivation is a big side effect too. Overtraining has a way of almost preventing itself by this(almost). Whenever I over train, I dont feel like going to the gym, thus, giving my self time to recover.

 

[LCSULLA]

You should build your GPP up slowly. The worst thing is starting off fast and thinking you can just go, go and go.

 

[-2z-]

I know about 3 people that have that machine. They say they couldn't live without it now...lol.
You'll finally be able to get some quality sleep after you get that thing. You should get a doc to adjust it though, because you need the pressure to be just right or it could screw your breathing up worse.

I'll see if I can find a GPP article. There's probably quite a few on elitefts.com

 

[Mr.50]

I really want to try this but I can't pay for the Doc visits, Sleep Study, and machine right now. WTF? Why does it have to be so hard to try to help yourself in this country?

I know about 3 people that have that machine. They say they couldn't live without it now...lol.
You'll finally be able to get some quality sleep after you get that thing. You should get a doc to adjust it though, because you need the pressure to be just right or it could screw your breathing up worse.

I'll see if I can find a GPP article. There's probably quite a few on elitefts.com

 

[glenihan]

my insurance covered all those things .. check to see if yours does

 

[Mr.50]

Gleni,

Are you self employed? I am and in the aspect of health insurance it sucks because I am not part of a group so many of the benefits are really different. I am in the process of increasing my coverage to the maximum I was able to find but I am not sure yet if I will get coverage or not. I am waiting to find out. Even so the first effective date will be March 1st and I don't know enough about insurance to determine whether or not I can go right away to get a sleep study done etc. or if I have to wait a while.

my insurance covered all those things .. check to see if yours does

 

[glenihan]

no not self employed and i know very little about insurance .. didn't realize your situation .. just saying you should check if you haven't .. but evidently you have

 

[Mr.50]

Thanks for the suggestion bro. I am trying to get the better insurance set up right now. Hopefully it will all work out.

no not self employed and i know very little about insurance .. didn't realize your situation .. just saying you should check if you haven't .. but evidently you have

 

[Ripped1]

you can seriously injure yourself if you overtrain, shoulders take the biggest beating

 

[phil216]

It becomes much easier to overtrain as you get stronger due to the fact that the stresses are far greater at that point which is why as you get stronger you will need to reduce the volume of exercise done during your workouts and insert more rest days between workouts.

 

[Mr.50]

That is such a great point and in my experience it has been totally true.

Mr.50

It becomes much easier to overtrain as you get stronger due to the fact that the stresses are far greater at that point which is why as you get stronger you will need to reduce the volume of exercise done during your workouts and insert more rest days between workouts.

 

[phil216]

thanks, very rare around here that someone agrees with a HIT guy

 

[jarhead]

thanks, very rare around here that someone agrees with a HIT guy

I've always trained this way too and love it. Plenty of time off for recovery is key for growth. And it keeps you fresh mentally.

 

[phil216]

It seems so obvious that as you grow stronger you would need more time to recover but so few people actually do so. In fact most people do the exact opposite by adding more sets and training more often which will in most cases lead to overtraining. Wat people need to realize is that training longer does not equal training harder

 

[Grunt76]

It becomes much easier to overtrain as you get stronger due to the fact that the stresses are far greater at that point which is why as you get stronger you will need to reduce the volume of exercise done during your workouts and insert more rest days between workouts.

I also agree totally, even though I'm a volume guy. Actually, I'm in a state of overtraining right now.

I had taken a Tribulus product and hadn't realized how good the extra test was at keeping me fresh. I hit the wall.

I belive that recuperative abilities, like anything else, can be trained, to a point. They will diminish as you get older for SURE, so I find it is best to train with high volume as you are smaller and younger and stretch these recuperative abilities as well as you can.

This is done by going into voluntary overtraining by excess volume or frequency, but obviously as this is voluntary, you KNOW it's going to happen, you watch out for it, then take a few days off and come back to the gym with lessened volume and frequency. You then have ample recuperative abilities for the amount of damage you are making.

NOT doing this will eventually create a situation where you have to train Mentzer-style. Nothing wrong with that, but I like lifting, and spending 90 minutes a week doing resistance work would never be enough to keep me motivated.

 

[jarhead]

I also agree totally, even though I'm a volume guy. Actually, I'm in a state of overtraining right now.

I had taken a Tribulus product and hadn't realized how good the extra test was at keeping me fresh. I hit the wall.

I belive that recuperative abilities, like anything else, can be trained, to a point. They will diminish as you get older for SURE, so I find it is best to train with high volume as you are smaller and younger and stretch these recuperative abilities as well as you can.

This is done by going into voluntary overtraining by excess volume or frequency, but obviously as this is voluntary, you KNOW it's going to happen, you watch out for it, then take a few days off and come back to the gym with lessened volume and frequency. You then have ample recuperative abilities for the amount of damage you are making.

NOT doing this will eventually create a situation where you have to train Mentzer-style. Nothing wrong with that, but I like lifting, and spending 90 minutes a week doing resistance work would never be enough to keep me motivated.

Good points. It's funny that you mention 90 minutes a week. That's how long Dorian Yates said he trained a week for his Olympia wins in his book. I always patterned my training after his. He also believed that as you get stronger and more advanced, rest requirements increase. Not just for muscle but the cns as well.

 

[LCSULLA]

Good points. It's funny that you mention 90 minutes a week. That's how long Dorian Yates said he trained a week for his Olympia wins in his book. I always patterned my training after his. He also believed that as you get stronger and more advanced, rest requirements increase. Not just for muscle but the cns as well.

I believe your right as well jarhead (along with the others), but I also think it has to do with being "in-shape". Example if I take a teen couch potato and a teen athlete and put them on the same program I think that the CP will suffer from burnout much quicker then the athlete will. Heres a great article by Dave Tate of Westside:

I can remember when I was a kid growing up and playing street ball, baseball, football, soccer, and a number of other games we just made up. On any given day there was something going on. Now when I drive through a neighborhood I fail to see the same games being played. The physical activities have been replaced with computer games and the Internet. So what does all this have to do with training? Well, in some respects, everything.
The ability to compete on a given day is known as your level of preparedness. This is determined by your level of fitness, which is in turn dependent upon your work capacity. So all training is based upon increasing work capacity, and you can't build a high level of preparedness without a high work capacity.
The solution to this sounds fairly simple: do more work and your work capacity will go up. The problem is that if you increase the work too quickly your progress will go backward. If you don't increase it enough then you'll stagnate. The work capacity has to be increased with a fine balance between general physical preparedness (GPP) and special physical preparedness (SPP).
SPP concentrates only on those exercises that are more specific to the sport of choice. GPP is intended to provide balanced physical conditioning between all the fitness components such as flexibility, strength, endurance, speed, and other factors. You see, the games we played as kids helped us to develop a certain level of GPP. While this level wasn't enough to become a world-class athlete, it was still worth something. Nowadays, college strength coaches see athlete after athlete with poor mobility because of shortened hip flexors. This is probably caused by the years these athletes spent sitting on their asses in front of the TV. They're athletes, yes, but their levels of GPP are poor.
According to Yuri Verkhoshansky in The Fundamentals of Special Strength Training in Sport and as outlined in Supertraining by Mel C Siff, there are several functions of GPP:
• To form, strengthen or restore motor skills, which play an auxiliary, facilatory role in perfecting sports ability.
• To teach abilities developed insufficiently by the given sport; increase the general work capacity or preserve it.
• To provide active rest, promote restoration after strenuous loading, and counteract the monotony of training.
Many coaches and athletes don't believe in the benefits of GPP at all. Who are the worst offenders? Are you sure you want to know? Bodybuilders and powerlifters are by far the worst! They feel that all they have to do is train the main lifts to get strong. This is why so many of them are out of shape.
I was first introduced to the concept of GPP a few years ago when Louie Simmons and I made a trip to Pittsburgh to watch John Davies train several of his athletes. John is a speed coach who was working with several players in Pittsburgh at the time. I weighed about 305 with a 2100 pound total at the time of this trip. My total was moving up but only by about five or ten pounds each competition. I knew I was missing something but didn't know what it was.
John was talking about how he'd never met an American player who couldn't benefit from added GPP. He said that just about every player he'd worked with was out of shape. American coaches, he said, were too quick to do specialized drills or movements before developing a solid base fitness level. Others athletes fail to maintain their fitness levels as they move through the ranks.
As we spoke I began to wonder if I'd lost my fitness level over the years. I'd spent the last few years force feeding myself to get my weight up and I only did those things I felt necessary in training. I didn't want to burn any more calories then I had to. At about this time we decided to go to lunch. The lunch hall was about a fourth of a mile away and up hill. John decided we would walk. Even though we could see the hall I still wanted to drive. About halfway up the hill I started to feel like I was going to die. By the time we got to the top I was soaked in sweat and beet-red. I thought my heart was going to pound through my chest. My question about GPP was answered.
My GPP was terrible and I was not only out of shape, I was way out of shape! I used to think this was how you had to be if you wanted to lift big weights. What the hell do I need to be in shape for if all I have to do is lift a weight that takes three to five seconds to complete? On the way home Louie and I came up with a plan. We knew endurance training (bike, treadmill, etc.) wasn't the ticket because it wasn't bringing up any weak points and not specific enough to our sport. We had to find a way to increase GPP while bringing up weak points.
The Solution: Sled Dragging
I decided to add in sled dragging six days a week with a few extra workouts. Louie had been doing these extra workouts for about a year and I just dismissed them as a waste of time. But the dragging sled could be used as a means of increasing work capacity. The use of a sled has many benefits:
• The sled is easy to use and doesn't require a special trip to the gym.
• The sled is specific to the development of the special skills necessary for maximal strength. (And by the way, we never run with the sled.)
• Many movements can be trained with the sled, some of which are listed below. There are movements for the abdominals, shoulders, hamstrings, etc. Virtually every muscle can be trained with a sled.
• The sled is a great way to induce active restoration. In many of the upper body dragging movements, the eccentric is eliminated because of the nature of the sled. This in turn is great for recovery because the tearing down of the muscle is much less in concentric-only movements.
My training schedule before was as follows:
Monday: Max effort squat/deadlift day
Wednesday: Max effort bench press
Friday: Dynamic effort squat day
Sunday: Dynamic effort bench day
The new schedule would be built to bring up my weak points, namely my abs and hamstrings. The new schedule looked like this:

Monday
AM: Max effort squat/deadlift day - This is the main training workout utilizing the method of maximal exertion followed by supplemental and accessory movements for the squat and deadlift. (See my past articles at T-mag if you're not familiar with Westside training.)
PM: Sled dragging, extra abdominal work and GHR (glute ham raise) - This is an extra workout I added to increase my work capacity. The sled work during this cycle was performed utilizing the empirical rule of 60% (see below). My abdominals have always been a weak point so extra abdominal work was also added into the weekly cycle..

Tuesday
Sled dragging - The main focus of this workout is restoration. I'll give a sample workout below.

Wednesday
AM: Max effort bench press - This is the main bench press workout utilizing the method of maximal exertion followed by supplemental and accessory movements.
PM: Sled dragging, extra abdominal work and pec-delt tie in - The goal of this training session is much like the goal of the PM session on Monday. Since I've torn both pecs, I added in some special movements to strengthen the pec-delt tie in region.

Thursday
Sled Dragging, abdominal work - Again, the main focus of this workout is restoration.

Friday
AM: Dynamic effort squat day - This is the main training day for the squat, utilizing the dynamic effort method. The box squat would be trained followed by supplemental movements for the squat and deadlift. No changes were made during this workout.
PM: Sled dragging, extra abdominal work and GHR - This workout was designed to suit the same purpose as the Monday PM workout.

Sunday
Dynamic effort bench day - This is the main training day for the bench press, utilizing the dynamic effort method. The bench press would be trained, followed by supplemental movements for that lift. No changes were made during this workout.

Sample Sled Dragging Movements
Around the waist forward dragging: This could be classified as the king of all dragging exercises. Run a nylon strap through the sled with the other end attached to a weight belt. Keep the belt one notch loose to allow for you to pull in and expand your belly as much as possible. This will allow you to better push your abdominals against the belt in the same fashion we advise for the power lifts.


As you walk forward do so in an explosive, dynamic motion, driving into the belt as you step. You should hear the forces snap the sled with each step. This is much different than just walking forward. This type of dragging is great for the development of the hamstrings and glutes.
Ankle dragging: This movement is great for the hip flexors and hamstrings. To perform it you'll need to attach one nylon strap to the sled and pass a second through the first for a "T" shape. Tie or loop the end of the second strap around each ankle.
Start the motion in a split stance position and pull the back leg forward with a slight bend in the knee. Concentrate on using the hip flexors and abdominals, not the quads. This movement has had a profound difference on many lifters I've consulted. It teaches them how to use their abdominals in a way that's conducive to doing the squat.
Rope dragging behind the knees: This style of dragging will pulverize your hamstrings. Attach the strap to the sled. Run a rope or another nylon strap through the first. Face away from the sled and grip the second strap behind your knees with a close stance. Stay in this semi-squatted position and walk forward.


Front raises: This has been one of the best and most successful things I've ever seen for sore and damaged shoulders. It's helped more lifters get back to the bench than any other movement. Attach one strap through the first in the same manner as the ankle dragging. Face away from the sled and grab one strap in each hand and walk forward while simulating a dumbbell front raise with the straps.


Rear raises: This movement is performed the same as the front raise except you'll be walking backwards and performing a rear raise. The benefit to these front and rear raises is that the loading during the eccentric phase is taken away. What you're left with is a concentric-only activity that causes little to no soreness.


Sample Dragging Workouts
Dragging for restoration - The basic guideline for restoration dragging is to keep the load light and drag for a greater distance. The best distance I've seen for this type of loading is 200 feet. A sample restoration workout is as follows:
1) Around the waist dragging: 90 pounds for 200 feet, rest 30 seconds and return. This movement would be performed for four trips. (One trip equals 200 feet.)
2) Front Raises: Two trips, 200 feet with 35 pounds
3) Rear Raises: Two trips, 200 feet with 35 pounds
4) Ankle dragging: Two trips, 200 feet with 35 pounds
Dragging for strength - The best type of loading for strength is to drag increasingly heavier weights for a shorter distance. The best distance we found for this is 100 feet. A sample strength workout would look like this:
1) Around the waist dragging: Begin with 45 pounds and drag for 100 feet. Rest 30 to 45 seconds and return. Rest another 45 seconds and add another 45-pound plate. Keep with this same distance and continue rest and loading pattern until your body tells you to stop. When it comes to strength dragging, one movement per workout is plenty.
2) Dragging using the empirical rule of 60%: The empirical rule of 60% is one of the best ways to induce active restoration in the course of a micro cycle. The best way to see how this system works is to look at an example of how it's used:
Day 1: Front raise dragging: 100 pounds for two trips of 100 feet.
Day 2: Front raise dragging: 60 pounds for two trips of 100 feet. You'll notice the weight is 60% of the weight used on day one.
Day 3: Front raise dragging: 36 pounds for two trips of 100 feet. This time you'll notice the weight is 60% of the weight used on day two.
These 60% drops are responsible for inducing a means of active restoration. Restoration should be used in cycles throughout the year coupled with the heaviest loading phases. You don't want to make restoration measures part of a yearly cycle because it's important for the body to get sore and beat down at certain times throughout the year. This is part of the training process we all accepted a long time ago. You do, however, want to go into a meet as fresh as possible.

Summary
I've presented just some of the possible GPP and restoration movements. It's worked wonders for us at Westside and for the athletes I train. The added GPP and hamstring development has improved many of our deadlifts and the upper body work has helped more shoulder problems caused by overtraining than anything else we've tried.
For more information on these movements or any of the others we perform, contact us at EliteFitnesssystems.com or call 888-854-8806. We also provide a quality sled and straps made for these types of movements.
If you'd rather make your own sled you can always get a used tire, cut a piece of plywood to fill the center, then load rocks or other weight on top of it. For straps you can either use a rope or call me for the straps we had made for ours. (We have them made with extra large loops so you can get your feet through.)
Good luck dragging yourself into shape

 

[jarhead]

Great article!

 

[Mr.50]

There are so many good posts in this thread. I think that both sides have tons of merit. I think planned (slight) overtraining might be good as long as it is tightly monitored. It would really be great if there was a way to definativly determine at what point you have reached "overtraining". I know about morning bp and the Cortisol/test ration ideas, what other objective measurements are out there that you guys have heard of?

 

[LCSULLA]

There are so many good posts in this thread. I think that both sides have tons of merit. I think planned (slight) overtraining might be good as long as it is tightly monitored. It would really be great if there was a way to definativly determine at what point you have reached "overtraining". I know about morning bp and the Cortisol/test ration ideas, what other objective measurements are out there that you guys have heard of?

I am sure that all these tests are valid, but I still think the best way is to go by feel. For me it's like BF measuring. There are a ton of ways to do. but the all say different things. While looking in the mirror will tell you everything you really need to know.

 

[phil216]

While it is true that recover ability can and will increase, the ability to increase your recoperative abilities is not proportionate the to ability to increase strength which is a big reason why so many people hit sticking points. Recovery ability is a genetic trait much like ability to tolerate sun light. Some people do have the ability to tolerate more then others but repeated frequent exposure to intense sunlight for too long a period of time will result in a burn and skin damage and not a positive adaptive response (a tan) much in the same way training too frequently will result in overtraining instead of a positive adaptive response (larger stronger muscles).