Intensity vs workload

[Brain5ick]

IF you had to only pick one, what would it be and why? Heavy 5x5 for bench or 10-15x5 with lighter weight for example.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Why not both? Switch it up on different workouts, especially if you hit a body part twice a week.

 

[Brain5ick]

Why not both? Switch it up on different workouts, especially if you hit a body part twice a week.

Well I do, but just metaphorically if you were only able to do one for every workout what one would you pick?

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Well I do, but just metaphorically if you were only able to do one for every workout what one would you pick?

For every exercise or just the main/first one? Can I do 5x5 for a main lift and then 8-15 reps for later subsequent lifts? Since I’m more focused on size than strength, I’d prefer to hit at least some 8-12+ rep sets, not just <5 reps every set.

 

[Brain5ick]

For every exercise or just the main/first one? Can I do 5x5 for a main lift and then 8-15 reps for later subsequent lifts? Since I’m more focused on size than strength, I’d prefer to hit at least some 8-12+ rep sets, not just <5 reps every set.

So you’d lean a little more towards intensity. Idk I figured it’d be a fun question to see what people would pick.

 

[AlexPowell]

I'd metaphorically kill myself

 

[Brain5ick]

I'd metaphorically kill myself

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I know I'm being pedantic, but isn't "hypothetically" more appropriate here than "metaphorically?"

 

[Brain5ick]

I know I'm being pedantic, but isn't "hypothetically" more appropriate here than "metaphorically?"

Yeah, you’re right.

 

[jeffreyshea]

Well I do, but just metaphorically if you were only able to do one for every workout what one would you pick?

I got tired of same o same o and lifted high reps, lower weight this past summer. I made a good if not better gains.
Being im 57 I'm going high reps, low weight BECAUSE.... when I lift heavy I tend to get hurt. Pull a muscle, tendon, old injuries flare up.
I recently went back to old school lifting. Heavy work traditional 12,10,8,6,4,4,4,2 on major /compound movements. Then minors like arms and shoulders I tend to stick with high reps, super sets, and burnouts.
My biceps have really grown. We have 5or6 fixed weight shorter barbells. I pick up the heaviest doing 12reps, immediately lifting the next 10-12reps,immediately the next until I've gone thru them all without resting. Then I go do 2 sets of hammer curls without resting between sets. Biceps are fried!

 

[AlexPowell]

Let me just bring to the table that getting stronger absolutely works for gaining muscle. But how much muscle are you going to gain if you increase your 8RM by 5lb that month? Not a lot

However training density, muscular endurance, can be improved indefinitely. This is my main quarrel with HIT and DC Training. It works really well... while you can get stronger. Eventually you're going to run out of exercises that you can get stronger on in a one month period and then the ONLY OPTION you have is to increase training density and build on your muscular endurance

 

[AlexPowell]

Let me just bring to the table that getting stronger absolutely works for gaining muscle. But how much muscle are you going to gain if you increase your 8RM by 5lb that month? Not a lot

However training density, muscular endurance, can be improved indefinitely. This is my main quarrel with HIT and DC Training. It works really well... while you can get stronger. Eventually you're going to run out of exercises that you can get stronger on in a one month period and then the ONLY OPTION you have is to increase training density and build on your muscular endurance

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Let me just bring to the table that getting stronger absolutely works for gaining muscle. But how much muscle are you going to gain if you increase your 8RM by 5lb that month? Not a lot

However training density, muscular endurance, can be improved indefinitely. This is my main quarrel with HIT and DC Training. It works really well... while you can get stronger. Eventually you're going to run out of exercises that you can get stronger on in a one month period and then the ONLY OPTION you have is to increase training density and build on your muscular endurance

What? Are you saying that if I take my 8 rm on bench press from, hypothetically, 240 to 245 in a month, and repeat this rate of progression for any sustained period of time I won’t gain muscle? So if I go from benching 240x8 to benching 300x8 a year later I won’t have gained muscle muscle in that year? For a non-beginner, that’s a pretty respectable year-gain, and will certainly lead to a solid increase in muscle mass over the year. Am I misinterpreting or misunderstanding something you are saying?

 

[AlexPowell]

What? Are you saying that if I take my 8 rm on bench press from, hypothetically, 240 to 245 in a month, and repeat this rate of progression for any sustained period of time I won’t gain muscle? So if I go from benching 240x8 to benching 300x8 a year later I won’t have gained muscle muscle in that year? For a non-beginner, that’s a pretty respectable year-gain, and will certainly lead to a solid increase in muscle mass over the year. Am I misinterpreting or misunderstanding something you are saying?

Yeah you mis read. I am saying that getting stronger is not sustainable in reality. Also, I would say that getting stronger is a by-product of the hypertrophy and not the actual cause of the hypertrophy. You're lifting more because you gained muscle - you're not gaining muscle because you lifted more

I'll try hard to explain this a bit better, it might take a few posts of back and forth
It's something that people don't really discuss or understand in body building. They are focused on sets and reps and the ideal program but don't understand what they are doing

You can do a program that is aimed around increasing your 8RM. You'll increase it and get bigger muscles from it. But at a point you're not going to gain muscle from it because you're not giving the muscles anything new in regards to stimulus. I've squatted 440lb deep and controlled for sets of 8 yet have tiny legs The muscular adaptations to simply increasing strength stopped long ago

When you get to this point, you have to increase the muscular endurance of the muscle. This is why discussing sets and reps is largely pointless. Because everyone is going to have a different amount of endurance. And it's building on this endurance that is going to keep the muscle growing as it needs to adapt to this new workload

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yeah you mis read. I am saying that getting stronger is not sustainable in reality. Also, I would say that getting stronger is a by-product of the hypertrophy and not the actual cause of the hypertrophy. You're lifting more because you gained muscle - you're not gaining muscle because you lifted more

I'll try hard to explain this a bit better, it might take a few posts of back and forth
It's something that people don't really discuss or understand in body building. They are focused on sets and reps and the ideal program but don't understand what they are doing

You can do a program that is aimed around increasing your 8RM. You'll increase it and get bigger muscles from it. But at a point you're not going to gain muscle from it because you're not giving the muscles anything new in regards to stimulus. I've squatted 440lb deep and controlled for sets of 8 yet have tiny legs The muscular adaptations to simply increasing strength stopped long ago

When you get to this point, you have to increase the muscular endurance of the muscle. This is why discussing sets and reps is largely pointless. Because everyone is going to have a different amount of endurance. And it's building on this endurance that is going to keep the muscle growing as it needs to adapt to this new workload

Ok. I was thinking that even 5 pounds per month on an 8-RM isn’t sustainable long-term (as in multiple years) for a natural non-beginner, or we’d all be repping 400 haha. I’d still insist that if you’re ensuring you’re progressing regularly, be it in weight for X reps, or X reps with Y weight (of course increasing the weight once you hit a predetermined number of reps; we aren’t all just benching 135 for 50+ reps every set of every workout lol), you’ll gain muscle. Granted, some methods and progression is much more conductive to building muscle than others, but that’s a given really.

Also, not to be a skeptic, but do you have videos of 440x8 on squats? Or records of some lift meets or something? That’s really impressive if it’s legit, not that I don’t believe you, it’s just the internet, so you never really know, you know?

 

[AlexPowell]

Ok. I was thinking that even 5 pounds per month on an 8-RM isn’t sustainable long-term (as in multiple years) for a natural non-beginner, or we’d all be repping 400 haha. I’d still insist that if you’re ensuring you’re progressing regularly, be it in weight for X reps, or X reps with Y weight (of course increasing the weight once you hit a predetermined number of reps; we aren’t all just benching 135 for 50+ reps every set of every workout lol), you’ll gain muscle. Granted, some methods and progression is much more conductive to building muscle than others, but that’s a given really.

Also, not to be a skeptic, but do you have videos of 440x8 on squats? Or records of some lift meets or something? That’s really impressive if it’s legit, not that I don’t believe you, it’s just the internet, so you never really know, you know?

Yes obviously you can get stronger and progress. But at some point that is not sustainable. When you are at that point you need to increase the amount of mechanical work completed in a period of time which can be improved almost indefinitely. If you leg press then go straight to leg extensions then go straight to squats - you will be able to increase the weight you do on those squats for a very long time

As for videos they are on my YouTube channel. I don't have a video of 440 for 8 but there are lots of other similar ones. There are some 460 paused squats, 550 singles, 620 deadlifts etc.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4wfdZGM7QFBlBEqthnT03w?view_as=subscriber

 

[AlexPowell]

When people ask what sets and reps they should do the correct answer is the amount of sets that fatigues the muscle. You should aim to increase the number of sets required over time. Or try to increase the work done in a period of time. This initial amount of rate of progression is different for everyone

If you look at John Meadows programs they start at a volume most people can do and then increase to a blood-****ting volume that most people cannot sustainably complete. This is why they are effective because it's a way of increasing muscular endurance that everyone can follow successfully

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes obviously you can get stronger and progress. But at some point that is not sustainable. When you are at that point you need to increase the amount of mechanical work completed in a period of time which can be improved almost indefinitely. If you leg press then go straight to leg extensions then go straight to squats - you will be able to increase the weight you do on those squats for a very long time

As for videos they are on my YouTube channel. I don't have a video of 440 for 8 but there are lots of other similar ones. There are some 460 paused squats, 550 singles, 620 deadlifts etc.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4wfdZGM7QFBlBEqthnT03w?view_as=subscriber

Nice. Thanks man, definitely impressive. Yeah, I agree, we inevitably hit a point where progression on straight sets for X reps becomes virtually non-existent, so adding other ways to do more work becomes a more efficient/effective method of progression. I’ll agree with that. Either add another set(s), decrease the rest, do super/giant/drop sets, etc.

Is that more along the lines of what you’re saying?

 

[AlexPowell]

Nice. Thanks man, definitely impressive. Yeah, I agree, we inevitably hit a point where progression on straight sets for X reps becomes virtually non-existent, so adding other ways to do more work becomes a more efficient/effective method of progression. I’ll agree with that. Either add another set(s), decrease the rest, do super/giant/drop sets, etc.

Is that more along the lines of what you’re saying?

Yes, the goal of bodybuilding is to increase the endurance of the muscle and not the limit strength of the muscle.
I should work on a way of explaining this better... Or make some sort of system that everyone can follow. It's hard to explain and especially to new trainers. Learning to lift the weight with the muscle and not just hoist it around is hard enough

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes, the goal of bodybuilding is to increase the endurance of the muscle and not the limit strength of the muscle.
I should work on a way of explaining this better... Or make some sort of system that everyone can follow. It's hard to explain and especially to new trainers. Learning to lift the weight with the muscle and not just hoist it around is hard enough

The goal of bodybuilding is to build big muscles and then to keep big muscles with very low body-fat. The means of how one achieves this primary goal are secondary. You can argue that increasing the endurance of the muscle is the most effective and/or efficient means to build muscle, but it is not itself the actual goal of bodybuilding, if that makes any sense. A bodybuilder is not judged based on his muscular endurance, but on the appearance of his muscles, so the goal is obviously to build muscle. I know I'm probably being pedantic at this point, but I think it's an important (and obvious) distinction.

 

[AlexPowell]

The goal of bodybuilding is to build big muscles and then to keep big muscles with very low body-fat. The means of how one achieves this primary goal are secondary. You can argue that increasing the endurance of the muscle is the most effective and/or efficient means to build muscle, but it is not itself the actual goal of bodybuilding, if that makes any sense. A bodybuilder is not judged based on his muscular endurance, but on the appearance of his muscles, so the goal is obviously to build muscle. I know I'm probably being pedantic at this point, but I think it's an important (and obvious) distinction.

Yes, sure. If you don't supply adequate calories or do dumb **** like only triceps kickbacks than no amount of muscular endurance will get you large

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Yes, sure. If you don't supply adequate calories or do dumb **** like only triceps kickbacks than no amount of muscular endurance will get you large

Yeah, I’m just pointing out that any method of training progression is inherently secondary to the primary goal of building muscle. I agree with your point about training, I’m just saying that a bodybuilder’s primary goal is by definition to build muscle.

 

[AntM1564]

Why not both? Switch it up on different workouts, especially if you hit a body part twice a week.

This. That is why I love PHAT or even a PPL routine where there are heavier days and hypertrophy days. Everyone should lift in all rep ranges, there is no reason to avoid some.

Here is a good article with a bunch of rep ranges and it explains the benefits.

https://www.t-nation.com/training/22-proven-rep-schemes

 

[BBiceps]

https://www.t-nation.com/training/22-proven-rep-schemes

Good read, thanks!

 

[ericos_bob]

https://themusclephd.com/lesson-on-bodybuilding-vs-powerlifting/