Where should I program my deadlifts?

[AntM1564]

Alright, some back story first. I injured the left side of my lower back 3 or 4 months ago. About 4 weeks later, it felt fine. Then, the right side started aching. Five weeks ago, I completely threw my back out. Now, I just get some discomfort on the right side only and when deadlifting and using the leg press. I am thinking about eliminating leg press since I squat and do other squat variations, but my question is on deadlifting.

I think this is how I initially hurt my back. I am thinking my legs are not recovered enough for deads and I am using my back more than I should. Here is my current programming. It is a 5/3/1 PPL hybrid

Sunday - 5/3/1 Bench and OHP heavy push accessories
Monday - 5/3/1 Deadlift with heavy pull accessories
Tuesday - Hypertrophy Legs
Wednesday - Off
Thursday - Push Hypertrophy
Friday - Pull Hypertrophy
Saturday - 5/3/1 Legs and heavy leg accessories

Initially, this was not an issue, but I think since my strength has gone up quite a bit, my legs are fatigued even though they feel fine on Monday.

I am thinking about putting the deadlifts on Tuesday and then follow my hypertrophy program for legs, or even cutting volume on the heavy Saturday leg day.

Looking for any input.

 

[jrock645]

Have you seen a chiropractor or anyone about your back to get an idea of what is wrong with it?

 

[AntM1564]

Have you seen a chiropractor or anyone about your back to get an idea of what is wrong with it?

Seen a chiro and got a massage. The chiro thinks it is the QL muscle. Make sense since the pain is off to the side. I only get the discomfort from pulling from the ground.

 

[tyga tyga]

I would see about getting an MRI. I originally thought my low back pain was QL/SI related but after my MRI it was my L4-5 disc abutted against a nerve root. The pain would radiate to the side (where your QLs are located).

I would stop letting the chiropractor adjusting your lower body as well. You want to stop all micro-movements in the lower lumbar if you have pain (per McGill)

Are you deadlifting twice a week or only on Monday?

 

[AlexPowell]

Normally these kinds of injuries are from not bracing correctly prior to doing the lift. A lot of people do deep breaths that end up breaking the chain and causing rounding / muscle strains. Here is a good video that will get you started. Your program looks fine

[video=youtube;qzGOcEuct54]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzGOcEuct54[/video]

 

[HIT4ME]

AntM1564 - I know this may not be what you are looking for, but have you considered breaking from the standard "week" long mentality? Maybe you need to add in an extra day of rest and make it an 8 day schedule? There may be a way to think about things to better program, but if you're hitting the point where the intensity (weights are getting bigger) and the frequency and volume all add up to potential for injury - then you need more recovery. You will have to either reduce frequency or reduce volume - I would bet adding 1 more day of rest, as much as people resist this, may be helpful.

 

[AntM1564]

Normally these kinds of injuries are from not bracing correctly prior to doing the lift. A lot of people do deep breaths that end up breaking the chain and causing rounding / muscle strains. Here is a good video that will get you started. Your program looks fine

[video=youtube;qzGOcEuct54]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzGOcEuct54[/video]

I think you pointed out one thing I have been working on. I honestly think I had my belt on too tight on the heavier sets and was relying on that more than bracing. Now, before each set of heavy squats and deadlifts, I take a few deep breaths and work on bringing the air into my stomach versus my chest.

I also think I was deadlifting with my hips too low and I was making it a two part movement. First, bringing my hips up into position, then my back, which would round the lower back.

AntM1564 - I know this may not be what you are looking for, but have you considered breaking from the standard "week" long mentality? Maybe you need to add in an extra day of rest and make it an 8 day schedule? There may be a way to think about things to better program, but if you're hitting the point where the intensity (weights are getting bigger) and the frequency and volume all add up to potential for injury - then you need more recovery. You will have to either reduce frequency or reduce volume - I would bet adding 1 more day of rest, as much as people resist this, may be helpful.

I have thought about this as well. I am an advocate of PPL because it is a frequency program. I think that more is better, but I know that is not the case. However, it is so hard to break away from that mentality. I think being a former fat kid, if I do less, I will get fat.

I have also been thinking about doing an upper hypertrophy day, instead of push and pull, and that would give me two rest days, as you mentioned.

 

[Cgkone]

Normally these kinds of injuries are from not bracing correctly prior to doing the lift. A lot of people do deep breaths that end up breaking the chain and causing rounding / muscle strains. Here is a good video that will get you started. Your program looks fine

[video=youtube;qzGOcEuct54]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzGOcEuct54[/video]

Good stuff

 

[HIT4ME]

I have thought about this as well. I am an advocate of PPL because it is a frequency program. I think that more is better, but I know that is not the case. However, it is so hard to break away from that mentality. I think being a former fat kid, if I do less, I will get fat.

I have also been thinking about doing an upper hypertrophy day, instead of push and pull, and that would give me two rest days, as you mentioned.

Well, I agree with the logic that Korea frequency CAN create more gains. If I can gain 1 rep on an exercise every workout and do that workout 3x per week, I will obviously gain faster than of I train only 1x per week. But there is always a trade off. In reality we all know that training 5x per week wont yield a 1 rep increase 5x, and at 10x I will probably get exhausted and lose strength quickly.

The other thing that we have to balance is the fact that you can work hard or you can work long, but you cannot do both. People often confuse the fact that it can be difficult and challenging to work long with working hard, but that's not what I mean. I mean that you cannot train with 100% intensity for long. Even the fastest sprinters are faster at the beginning of a 100m sprint than at the end.

And if you are working hard, you need to modulate that. You always have a trade off of intensity, volume and frequency. I know you already understand this but the switch in mentality is to dedicate yourself to working hard and recovering rather than guaging your effort on the volume and frequency.

It sounds like you are requiring more from your body, and you wouldn't expect to grow if you weren't feeding it more food to compensate...you need to also feed it more rest to actually grow.

You're one of the smartest and most accomplished guys on here so I am not trying to come across as superior or like I know more than you (or anyone)....just trying to share my mentality/angle on how I think of this. I know you probably "know" this anyway. But flipping the switch can be tough.

 

[tyga tyga]

Good stuff

It is, Duffin works a lot with McGill and has since advanced a little more with movements. Obviously breathing into the belly and abdominal pressure is key in bracing the lower lumbar but strengthening the core/obliques should be a primary objective for injury prevention.

Also, people should seek out professional help in actually pinpointing the problem instead of guessing (hence the MRI) IMO.

 

[Cgkone]

It is, Duffin works a lot with McGill and has since advanced a little more with movements. Obviously breathing into the belly and abdominal pressure is key in bracing the lower lumbar but strengthening the core/obliques should be a primary objective for injury prevention.

Also, people should seek out professional help in actually pinpointing the problem instead of guessing (hence the MRI) IMO.

And not over inhaling.
When I first started deadlifting I would suck huge amount of air.
Now I just do a quick blast of air in.
After that I drop down and pull. Stacking my spine right before.
Ben Pollack talk about stacking the spine.

 

[AntM1564]

Well, I agree with the logic that Korea frequency CAN create more gains. If I can gain 1 rep on an exercise every workout and do that workout 3x per week, I will obviously gain faster than of I train only 1x per week. But there is always a trade off. In reality we all know that training 5x per week wont yield a 1 rep increase 5x, and at 10x I will probably get exhausted and lose strength quickly.

The other thing that we have to balance is the fact that you can work hard or you can work long, but you cannot do both. People often confuse the fact that it can be difficult and challenging to work long with working hard, but that's not what I mean. I mean that you cannot train with 100% intensity for long. Even the fastest sprinters are faster at the beginning of a 100m sprint than at the end.

And if you are working hard, you need to modulate that. You always have a trade off of intensity, volume and frequency. I know you already understand this but the switch in mentality is to dedicate yourself to working hard and recovering rather than guaging your effort on the volume and frequency.

It sounds like you are requiring more from your body, and you wouldn't expect to grow if you weren't feeding it more food to compensate...you need to also feed it more rest to actually grow.

You're one of the smartest and most accomplished guys on here so I am not trying to come across as superior or like I know more than you (or anyone)....just trying to share my mentality/angle on how I think of this. I know you probably "know" this anyway. But flipping the switch can be tough.

Thank you man. I really appreciate you taking the time out and writing all of that.

I was looking at other PPL routines online, not even programming anything like 5/3/1 like I am doing, and I am sure my volume is way too high. Here are all of the sets I am performing for each major muscle group on a weekly basis.

Chest - 21
Biceps - 12
Triceps - 18
Delts - 18
Back - 36 (3 sets for deadlifts)
Traps - 6
Legs - 30 (not including calves and abductor/adductor work)

Normally on today's push session, I would do 3 sets of decline press, 3 sets of incline dumbbell, 3 sets of flat dumbbell, and pec deck. I am going to eliminate the flat dumbbell today.

When I am looking at these numbers, my mind is blown. Thinking back to the days where I followed a bro split, I would usually do 12 sets for chest once a week. 21 is way too much.

 

[HIT4ME]

Thank you man. I really appreciate you taking the time out and writing all of that.

I was looking at other PPL routines online, not even programming anything like 5/3/1 like I am doing, and I am sure my volume is way too high. Here are all of the sets I am performing for each major muscle group on a weekly basis.

Chest - 21
Biceps - 12
Triceps - 18
Delts - 18
Back - 36 (3 sets for deadlifts)
Traps - 6
Legs - 30 (not including calves and abductor/adductor work)

Normally on today's push session, I would do 3 sets of decline press, 3 sets of incline dumbbell, 3 sets of flat dumbbell, and pec deck. I am going to eliminate the flat dumbbell today.

When I am looking at these numbers, my mind is blown. Thinking back to the days where I followed a bro split, I would usually do 12 sets for chest once a week. 21 is way too much.

Yeah...in certain programs I could see that much volume but almost half of it at least would require low intensity work.

Last year I spent a lot of time doing low volume, high frequency and moderate intensity work. I found that doing a whole body routine where I did just 1 or 2 working sets per body part and did the routine 3x per week actually seemed great at first, but after 3-4 weeks I would slide backwards.

Doing 6 sets in a single workout means the last 3 sets dont have as much intensity as the first 3 because you are tired and not drawing as much even though they are harder - so doing the same number of sets 2 sets at a time and getting tested to generate 100% intensity again will have a different impact.

But you can use this same principle to moderate intensity with higher reps. I also have played around a lot with doing 2 sets in a workout - the first set is a lighter weight with a goal of 15 reps to failure, second set gets heavier weight with a goal of 5 reps to failure. This means I am not training at maximal intensity in a way for either set - which may decrease the stimulus but should also decrease the impact on the CNS I think and aid recovery.

 

[AlexPowell]

The best way to make gains is to start at lower volume and increase the volume each week until you reach a point that you're not able to achieve any overload due to it being too much work, then deloading and starting again. I like to keep it between a 4:1 and 6:1 ratio of work to deloading

In my opinion

 

[EMPIREMIND]

Have you ever done a high frequency low volume approach? The number of sets you listed is crazy high.... Maybe you could try an upper lower split and put a rest day between every session to give your back a break. Or try pull,push, legs off, so you always have a day in-between training that doesn't tax your lower back.

Also depending on your back pain you may want to consider switching to a hex bar dead until you resolve your issues. Personally I messed up my back real good doing deads. I took a break from alot of the compound moves and switched to more machine work and used alot of mountain dog intensifiers. When my back was better I started back with the deads and actually had a nice pr.

My goals have always been hypertrophy based, im not sure what yours are so take what I say as what it is, but ultimately I hope it helps in some way lol.