Jsmith219
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I know the general consensus is train muscles more than once per week. But if you also military press on shoulder day and deadlifts on leg day doesn't that hit them more then once a week?
Right? A bro spilt is a muscle group hit once a week. If your hitting muscle groups more than that, it's not really a bro split. And you can build muscle hitting each group once a week, especially if your a novice or geared lifter(massive volume though), but for your average trained individual, higher frequency is more optimal.is it really a bro split den?
It's funny how many people repeat this idea of more frequency being better for natural lifters despite there being no evidence for it. If anything more frequency should be better on gear as you can recover faster. Do what you prefer mate doesn't hurt switching it up I just switched to training 4 days a week using bookend workouts and loving it.I do a ppl right now. Haven't done a bro split in years after reading how natural lifters need more frequency. Just thought about switching it up for a change to see the results.
More frequent for a new lifter teaches them how to do the lifts properly faster then perform that lift only 1x per week, just like anything in life the more you practice something the better you get at it. That's pretty much a fact with anything in life. So let's think about this, who's going to make gains faster, a guy lifting weights correct or a guy who still doesn't know what he is doing. Now that being said if you already know what your doing it comes back down to what works for you. There is no best routine and never will be cus nothing works for everyone. And I kinda forgot where I was going with this so Ill stop talking nowIt's funny how many people repeat this idea of more frequency being better for natural lifters despite there being no evidence for it. If anything more frequency should be better on gear as you can recover faster. Do what you prefer mate doesn't hurt switching it up I just switched to training 4 days a week using bookend workouts and loving it.
Then there's the other side of the coin, doing the same lifts more frequently with bad form isn't good either. I don't think more training sessions will make anyone better unless they're under professional supervision. The only way to learn correct form for most lifters is to read books, watch YouTube videos and get advice from others in the gym. It takes time not more training sessions.More frequent for a new lifter teaches them how to do the lifts properly faster then perform that lift only 1x per week, just like anything in life the more you practice something the better you get at it. That's pretty much a fact with anything in life. So let's think about this, who's going to make gains faster, a guy lifting weights correct or a guy who still doesn't know what he is doing. Now that being said if you already know what your doing it comes back down to what works for you. There is no best routine and never will be cus nothing works for everyone. And I kinda forgot where I was going with this so Ill stop talking now
Think about it man, does it take a full week for your chest to recover? How about your quads? Don't you agree that if it only takes about 3 days for a muscle group to recover that it would be better to train said muscle group more frequently? How is going 7 days between training sessions of a particular muscle group optimal? Watch the Mike Isratel video on the myth of bro splits on YouTube. I believe he references some study's about how waiting to long will actually slow muscle growth as the muscles have recovered and are returning to baseline, or just above. It's a good video to watch regardless.It's funny how many people repeat this idea of more frequency being better for natural lifters despite there being no evidence for it. If anything more frequency should be better on gear as you can recover faster. Do what you prefer mate doesn't hurt switching it up I just switched to training 4 days a week using bookend workouts and loving it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4836564/Think about it man, does it take a full week for your chest to recover? How about your quads? Don't you agree that if it only takes about 3 days for a muscle group to recover that it would be better to train said muscle group more frequently? How is going 7 days between training sessions of a particular muscle group optimal? Watch the Mike Isratel video on the myth of bro splits on YouTube. I believe he references some study's about how waiting to long will actually slow muscle growth as the muscles have recovered and are returning to baseline, or just above. It's a good video to watch regardless.
My sentiments exactlyWell, in this case Mike Israetel is not some random fitness YT, but a professor of exercise science who happens to feature on YT videos. Definitely knowledgeable and "real" science guy.
I get you bro. And I agree, to an extent. It's like a diet. You could have the best meal plan in the world, but if you can't stick to it, it won't work. It also depends on your goals. Are you training for powerlifting? are you a bodybuilder? Strongman? For that, I would look to the athletes and what works, generally speaking. If your just working out to stay fit, do whatever you enjoy.I find I'm not recovered for the next workout when I train each muscle group more than once, even if it's only 2 exercises. Maybe I was going too hard in my workouts I dunno but it just doesn't agree with me. I like quick 40-50 minute sessions where I leave it all in the gym and get out, it just suits me personally. Plus I don't know how people do legs2x a week as well as cardio my knees couldn't take it.
Thing is one guy could be doing a terrible routine but loves it and another doing one he sees as a chore and can't get into but it's a great program. Imo the guy doing the ****ty one is gonna make better gains than the fella that isn't into what he's doing.
Whatever works for you bud. I personally train 5 a week, 2 upper, 2 lower, 1 dead. I've always had decent recovery though.I'm actually going back to a bro split after doing PPL all last year. For me personally, training 5 days/week and hitting muscles twice a week was very VERY stressful and I was always in zombie mode outside of the gym.
I'm now doing 4 days/week:
Chest/Shoulders/Abs
Back/Biceps/Triceps/Rear Delts
Legs/Calves
Biceps/Triceps/Abs
I'm still hitting arms twice a week cause they're a bit behind the rest, but it's mainly a bro split. I recover better, I feel better in the gym, and gains are happening nonetheless. Just my 2c
Same here mate, I tried p/p/l/p/p/l/rest 6 days a week and i never felt 100% in or out of the gym. Didn't enjoy the repetitiveness of it either. You're a bit more limited on exercise selection with a ppl split compared to a bro split too.I'm actually going back to a bro split after doing PPL all last year. For me personally, training 5 days/week and hitting muscles twice a week was very VERY stressful and I was always in zombie mode outside of the gym.
I'm now doing 4 days/week:
Chest/Shoulders/Abs
Back/Biceps/Triceps/Rear Delts
Legs/Calves
Biceps/Triceps/Abs
I'm still hitting arms twice a week cause they're a bit behind the rest, but it's mainly a bro split. I recover better, I feel better in the gym, and gains are happening nonetheless. Just my 2c
There is no way possible that training a muscle once or multiple times a week makes no difference. Anecdotally there have been too many examples of people increasing training frequency and experiencing new growth.There's been studies carried out showing no difference between training a muscl once twice or three times a week. Do what you prefer, the more you put into your workouts is the difference in what results you get. I train every muscle group once a week, tried ppl splits 2x week several times thinking it would be better and got sub optimal results simply because I didn't enjoy it. Personally I like hitting a muscle group when I'm fresh.
Show me proof. People aren't reliable when it comes to self reporting, plus most I speak to in the gym can't seem to tell the difference between muscle gain and fat gain. There's scientific evidence that a larger muscle can take 5-7 days to fully recover after a hard workout. Why I'm your mind would you think higher frequency is better? More training doesn't always equal more growth.There is no way possible that training a muscle once or multiple times a week makes no difference. Anecdotally there have been too many examples of people increasing training frequency and experiencing new growth.
Well quite simply some of the most reknown bodybuilding programs are low volume and high frequency. DC training, which hits every muscle group three times in a 12 day period. Or more recently fortitude Training which hits each muscle group 3-4 times a week. I'm not sure what kind of gym you work out in, but the guys I see that train effectively do not gain fat and mistake it for muscle. Now you didn't mention volume, because that is most definitely a determining factor in how often you can train again.Show me proof. People aren't reliable when it comes to self reporting, plus most I speak to in the gym can't seem to tell the difference between muscle gain and fat gain. There's scientific evidence that a larger muscle can take 5-7 days to fully recover after a hard workout. Why I'm your mind would you think higher frequency is better? More training doesn't always equal more growth.
That's the thing if you train with more volume you're gonna take longer to recover. Atm I'm doing four days a week Monday chest/biceps/abs, Tuesday legs, thurs shoulders/traps/abs and fri back/triceps. I'm doing bookends where you go back to hit the heavy the compound movements with the same weight after your accessory exercises followed by 2 sets of 12-15 and trust me ya don't wanna be doing that **** twice a week. Strength gains so far have been great so far.Well quite simply some of the most reknown bodybuilding programs are low volume and high frequency. DC training, which hits every muscle group three times in a 12 day period. Or more recently fortitude Training which hits each muscle group 3-4 times a week. I'm not sure what kind of gym you work out in, but the guys I see that train effectively do not gain fat and mistake it for muscle. Now you didn't mention volume, because that is most definitely a determining factor in how often you can train again.
This whole statement depends on intensity. What if your training at a higher volume but lower weight/intensity? This would allow you to train multiple times a week.That's the thing if you train with more volume you're gonna take longer to recover. Atm I'm doing four days a week Monday chest/biceps/abs, Tuesday legs, thurs shoulders/traps/abs and fri back/triceps. I'm doing bookends where you go back to hit the heavy the compound movements with the same weight after your accessory exercises followed by 2 sets of 12-15 and trust me ya don't wanna be doing that **** twice a week. Strength gains so far have been great so far.
I didn't say you couldn't train multiple times a week, of course ya can. I'm saying it's not the only way to train. I'm sure some get great results from high frequency I'm not arguing that.This whole statement depends on intensity. What if your training at a higher volume but lower weight/intensity? This would allow you to train multiple times a week.
Thanks for sharing. This made me realize my volume is way too high and doesn't allow for frequency. Gonna give this a shot!Here is a good read for those interested.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/the-best-damn-workout-plan-for-natural-lifters
Usual bioscience from Christian Thibaudeau. Funny thing is he always talks about natty lifters vs enhanced as if he's natural himself lolHere is a good read for those interested.
https://www.t-nation.com/training/the-best-damn-workout-plan-for-natural-lifters
Thib's use or non use of PED's doesn't affect whether or not his program is effective.Usual bioscience from Christian Thibaudeau. Funny thing is he always talks about natty lifters vs enhanced as if he's natural himself lol
None of the stuff he ever says has any scientific merit, he's a first class bro scientist.Thib's use or non use of PED's doesn't affect whether or not his program is effective.
By your logic, we should all be shopping for sick, out of shape doctors to help us get healthy.
"What does a healthy doc know about being sick". . .
I have been following a PPL routine for a few years now. Prior to that, I always used a bro split with a ton of volume. It is still difficult to tell myself I do not need to do 20+ sets for legs in a single day when I have two leg days.Thanks for sharing. This made me realize my volume is way too high and doesn't allow for frequency. Gonna give this a shot!
lol that's what got me when I changed to p/p/l then when I went back to once a week training I wasn't hitting the it hard enough in the gym. I find I pretty much have to stay away from training to complete failure on PPL 6 days a week whereas on a bro split the last set is always a ball buster, sometimes even the last 2 sets.I have been following a PPL routine for a few years now. Prior to that, I always used a bro split with a ton of volume. It is still difficult to tell myself I do not need to do 20+ sets for legs in a single day when I have two leg days.
This is really it. Some people like going all out, others would rather do more work. Most people, regardless, do more work than they should - like Ant1564 said, it's hard mentally to back off from the volume. It's worse because everyone thinks volume is a measure of effort. It's the exact opposite. If you are training hard, you will be EXHAUSTED after 1-3 sets. I mean, I've had really focused times where intensity was all out and you can wipe yourself out in 10 minutes. Most people don't know what it's like to train that hard. If you are training that hard, anything you lift after 10 minutes is going to be more of a waste of energy than any kind of stimulus. At that point, you're just wasting effort and torturing yourself for no return.I actually think it really comes down to your personality, if you're a balls-to-the-wall leave everything in the gym sorta guy a bro split probably suits you better but if you're more laid back and don't push yourself as hard 2x or 3x a week would be better. Personally I struggle to recover with 2x week body part training.
You hit a lot of "minor" points in your list that actually make a HUGE difference. As someone who read and liked Mentzer's work a lot - it took me years to realize that I was missing some of the point because I thought it was a minor part of the training. One is, absolute failure isn't JUST going until you can't lift it. There are three phases of a movement - lifting, static, lowering. Lowering is the strongest phase and when you hit failure on this phase (which requires a spotter for most exercises) - that is absolute failure. Try doing 5 sets like that and then tell me you need 20 sets to hit a bodypart effectively.Let's put it like this, Dorian Yates did 4 days a week and 1 working set to failure for exercise, 3-4 exercise a body part and was out in 40-60 mins. He had arguably the best physique ever. I agree with HIT, intensity and concentrating on muscle/mind and contraction, keep the movements slow and controlled while going to absolute failure (can't even do eccentric movements) you won't want to train that muscle again for a week haha high volume is good for deloadif from this type of training to reduce the risk of injury every 6 weeks or so. It's TUT and load that induces hypertrophy not how many reps and sets you can bust
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